Discussion On The Politics of Immigration Reform (Comprehensive Or Otherwise)

[AceMan]

Can't agree with Obama observations. Republicans have moved more and more on the crazy side since Vietnam. Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Now Trump. Obama only brought out the visceral hatred and racism on the far right. If Trump wins second term, then IMHO deep state will be dead forever and America's days as the undisputed world superpower will end much sooner.

In my observation, Trump stole the election from Ted Cruz in 2016. He was the leading candidate against the establishment, while the main stream media promoted Trump over the top drowning the sane republican voices at that time. These newspapers were celebrating the Trump abuses of Ted Cruz’s/Bush’s/McCain’s/ family and services to the country. These channels were feeding and stroking his bad behavior. When Megyn Kelly asked Trump a very serious solid question on the republican candidates night, these news channels were more elaborating Trumps personal attacks on her.

It was not Trump who destroyed the American framework, but rather started with Obama when he passed his Health care without a single republican support, followed by his botched attempt of bending over the back to appease the worst elements on the red side by his crackdown on immigration, both legal and illegal. USCIs Employee-Employer relation, 3 year opt’s, the horrible implementation of filing dates and final dates.

We have people in this country for over a decade, with no representation or voting rights all held back because of an illogical country quota.

[qesehmk]

In my observation, Trump stole the election from Ted Cruz in 2016. He was the leading candidate against the establishment, while the main stream media promoted Trump over the top drowning the sane republican voices at that time. These newspapers were celebrating the Trump abuses of Ted Cruz’s/Bush’s/McCain’s/ family and services to the country. These channels were feeding and stroking his bad behavior. When Megyn Kelly asked Trump a very serious solid question on the republican candidates night, these news channels were more elaborating Trumps personal attacks on her.

It was not Trump who destroyed the American framework, but rather started with Obama when he passed his Health care without a single republican support, followed by his botched attempt of bending over the back to appease the worst elements on the red side by his crackdown on immigration, both legal and illegal. USCIs Employee-Employer relation, 3 year opt’s, the horrible implementation of filing dates and final dates.

We have people in this country for over a decade, with no representation or voting rights all held back because of an illogical country quota.

Country quota certainly seems evil and we have pointed that out before literally anybody else. No doubt they need to go and they will go away in next four years if Biden wins. If Trump wins then I am not hopeful looking at the language quota his party is speaking about.

You might be surprised to know that country quota was an improvement over population based limits repealed in 1965. Population based limits put limits on immigration from a specific country based on existing population in the US. e.g. if US had only 0.5% indian population then India was maxed out at 0.5% of the total immigration limit. So country quota while are still very discriminatory are still an improvement. Before population limits Asians (specifically chinese and japanese) were completely barred from immigration. So immigration has evolved over time and it will become more and more fair. But people have to earn it. Nobody hands out things in US. People have to fight for it.

As per your observations about Obama - again I disagree. The only thing I will add is that the mainstream media indeed cheered trump because they thought Hillary will beat him quite easily. But Comey and FBI meddled and got Trump elected by announcing a probe into Hillary 10 or 14 days before the election.

[idliman]

Country quota certainly seems evil and we have pointed that out before literally anybody else. No doubt they need to go and they will go away in next four years if Biden wins.
As per your observations about Obama - again I disagree. The only thing I will add is that the mainstream media indeed cheered trump because they thought Hillary will beat him quite easily. But Comey and FBI meddled and got Trump elected by announcing a probe into Hillary 10 or 14 days before the election.

Having observed the numerous attempts at removal of per-country caps as an outsider, there is tremendous opposition to removal of per-country cap. When the entire world is benefiting because of the suffering from one country, it would be very difficult. IMO, the only chance of per-country cap removal is in the context of a CIR & DACA.

Also I agree that the Comey letter alone probably did shift enough votes to swing the election to DT. DT won the last election by 77,744 votes in three swing states (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania). Trump won Pennsylvania by 0.7 percentage points (44,292 votes), Wisconsin by 0.7 points (22,748 votes), Michigan by 0.2 points (10,704 votes). That amounts to 0.06% of votes. I stopped watching the political panel discussions long time back. However, it is my belief that DT and R’s cannot win this election, unless they resort to widespread voter suppression tactics. If JB & KH manage to motivate enough voters to turn up, they should win.

[qesehmk]

Having observed the numerous attempts at removal of per-country caps as an outsider, there is tremendous opposition to removal of per-country cap. When the entire world is benefiting because of the suffering from one country, it would be very difficult. IMO, the only chance of per-country cap removal is in the context of a CIR & DACA.

Also I agree that the Comey letter alone probably did shift enough votes to swing the election to DT. DT won the last election by 77,744 votes in three swing states (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania). Trump won Pennsylvania by 0.7 percentage points (44,292 votes), Wisconsin by 0.7 points (22,748 votes), Michigan by 0.2 points (10,704 votes). That amounts to 0.06% of votes. I stopped watching the political panel discussions long time back. However, it is my belief that DT and R’s cannot win this election, unless they resort to widespread voter suppression tactics. If JB & KH manage to motivate enough voters to turn up, they should win.

I am hoping for biden-harris to win but 2016 was such a shocker that in 2020 I hesitate to put faith in the 10 point lead.

Per country caps will go away if we keep the heat on. The trick will be to keep it narrow and not ride it with anything else. It will pass. The biggest opponent so far was Durbin who is now on board. A few lawmakers (like Rick Scott (R) florida) will b--- and m--- but most will support and it will pass. I think Biden said he supports removal of country quota. If he wins, all the South Indian community should descend on kamala chitti and it will pass I can see this very clear. My only caveat is - it needs democrats in power. With Trump it is a bit dicey.

[AceMan]

Having observed the numerous attempts at removal of per-country caps as an outsider, there is tremendous opposition to removal of per-country cap. When the entire world is benefiting because of the suffering from one country, it would be very difficult. IMO, the only chance of per-country cap removal is in the context of a CIR & DACA.

The problem is how this is being visualized. It is a bloody American problem, where people are living in the country being ignored with new comers in the name of country quota rule. Oh yeah, there is freedom of choice, you are free to leave the country if you don’t like it. And it precisely where conniving reps, senators who are worse than jackals, with all talk and not action Grassley, Durbin, Schumer to name a few.

The leading names would be couple of Juniors named Obama and Sanders who torpedoed the immigration act of 2007 presented by Kennedy. I am surprised to see Q while getting vocal about the basket cases of Red, is silent about the deplorable s on the blue side

[qesehmk]

The problem is how this is being visualized. It is a bloody American problem, where people are living in the country being ignored with new comers in the name of country quota rule. Oh yeah, there is freedom of choice, you are free to leave the country if you don’t like it. And it precisely where conniving reps, senators who are worse than jackals, with all talk and not action Grassley, Durbin, Schumer to name a few.

The leading names would be couple of Juniors named Obama and Sanders who torpedoed the immigration act of 2007 presented by Kennedy. I am surprised to see Q while getting vocal about the basket cases of Red, is silent about the deplorable s on the blue side

ACE - like many of you I have been a witness of immigration saga since early 2000s. What you provide are talking points from GOP side. They are not facts and can easily be disproven (all of them). I just don't have enough time to convince every single person I come across.

Generally speaking here is the immigration picture:
1. Dems have always favored immigration (all kinds). But obviously family one is 7 times bigger (including immediate relatives). So that is their priority.
2. Reps resistance to immigration has transformed from an economic POV to racist POV. They oppose illegals and legals alike. Trump has hijacked the economic issue and turned it into a racist issue.
3. EB immigration has horribly worsened due to lack of numbers but luckily now the size of backlog is so large that the problem has hit the conscious of many many American lawmakers as well as general public
4. Dems have always wanted more and more and more immigration. It is the party of the immigrants and unfortunately GOP has become party of the southern whites, northern disgruntled working whites, and uppity immigrants/collaborators from conflict ridden countries e.g. (South Vietnames, Cuban Collaborators). The third piece is interesting and that is where Indians too figure. Most Indian NRIs that are modi supporters are pleased with Trump's anti muslim rhetoric and are mixing their right wing views in India with American politics and are hurting their own interests.

So Ace - that's the immigration picture in nutshell. Dems are the better party for immigration. GOP has become absolutely racist. NRI's should not mix Indian right wing politics with American politics. It is not in their interest.

There is ample material online from 2005 / 2007 era and Obama and democratic positions on immigration. So one can educate themselves. It is just not productive for me to dig up all that material and argue about it. I urge you to spend some time and if it changes your mind, great. If it doesn't, lets agree to disagree.

[AceMan]

ACE - like many of you I have been a witness of immigration saga since early 2000s. What you provide are talking points from GOP side. They are not facts and can easily be disproven (all of them). I just don't have enough time to convince every single person I come across.

Generally speaking here is the immigration picture:
1. Dems have always favored immigration (all kinds). But obviously family one is 7 times bigger (including immediate relatives). So that is their priority.
2. Reps resistance to immigration has transformed from an economic POV to racist POV. They oppose illegals and legals alike. Trump has hijacked the economic issue and turned it into a racist issue.
3. EB immigration has horribly worsened due to lack of numbers but luckily now the size of backlog is so large that the problem has hit the conscious of many many American lawmakers as well as general public
4. Dems have always wanted more and more and more immigration. It is the party of the immigrants and unfortunately GOP has become party of the southern whites, northern disgruntled working whites, and uppity immigrants/collaborators from conflict ridden countries e.g. (South Vietnames, Cuban Collaborators). The third piece is interesting and that is where Indians too figure. Most Indian NRIs that are modi supporters are pleased with Trump's anti muslim rhetoric and are mixing their right wing views in India with American politics and are hurting their own interests.

So Ace - that's the immigration picture in nutshell. Dems are the better party for immigration. GOP has become absolutely racist. NRI's should not mix Indian right wing politics with American politics. It is not in their interest.

There is ample material online from 2005 / 2007 era and Obama and democratic positions on immigration. So one can educate themselves. It is just not productive for me to dig up all that material and argue about it. I urge you to spend some time and if it changes your mind, great. If it doesn't, lets agree to disagree.

Our disagreements are purely on points with absolute mutual respect for each other in person. I have to clearly indicate my position is on the conservative side. The Republican Party represented my views since 2010.

Let you not fall into the trap of media outlets, who wants to brand entire spectrum of republicans as racists. It was they who created the Trump Frankenstein, who could never grow beyond the reality show host level. Back in India we had the TINA factor. Almost all the moderates who have voted Trump are still expected to vote Trump.

And lot of Indian origin people moving away from Democratic Party can be clearly attributed to the Keith Ellison, who literally abused Indian Hindu Leaders who were always aiding democrats, and his vendetta against an Indian leader over religious violence which he had very specific views. Where as Trump was always respectful of Indians in general.

[qesehmk]

Our disagreements are purely on points with absolute mutual respect for each other in person. I have to clearly indicate my position is on the conservative side. The Republican Party represented my views since 2010.

Let you not fall into the trap of media outlets, who wants to brand entire spectrum of republicans as racists. It was they who created the Trump Frankenstein, who could never grow beyond the reality show host level. Back in India we had the TINA factor. Almost all the moderates who have voted Trump are still expected to vote Trump.

And lot of Indian origin people moving away from Democratic Party can be clearly attributed to the Keith Ellison, who literally abused Indian Hindu Leaders who were always aiding democrats, and his vendetta against an Indian leader over religious violence which he had very specific views. Where as Trump was always respectful of Indians in general.

Ace - we not only tolerate but celebrate diversity of views and opinion on this forum.

Me not agreeing with much of your political views does not stop me from wishing you and everybody else God speed to your GCs!

[jimmys]

I'm skeptical of Democrats passing country quota removal for EB as a standalone bill. If they pass country quota removal for EB, then their version of the CIR becomes just illegals only and it won't even take off. They will be wary of that.

So I expect Democrats to package in the EB country quota removal in their newer version of CIR. There will be a lot of debates whether CIR should be introduced or not. And, EB country quota removal will die along with their newer version of CIR. Above scenario is if Dems win Presidency+Senate+House.

[AceMan]

Ace - we not only tolerate but celebrate diversity of views and opinion on this forum.

Me not agreeing with much of your political views does not stop me from wishing you and everybody else God speed to your GCs!

We are from a country which contributed Thali to the food world, and US is the melting pot. So yes we are unity in diversity.

[qesehmk]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/14/polit...olf/index.html

This is an interesting read how Trump admin is even after asylum seekers!! Seriously?

Asylum seekers is an interesting category. US has a long history of providing asylum to people fleeing persecution. According to Trump admin these people should wait 1 year before applying for EAD. That's outright crazy.

There are two elements of resistance.
1) The usual anti immigrant view about jobs
2) The anti state department view where the asylum seekers are seen as result of America's wrong involvement abroad.

I think 1 is populist and 2 is deep. But regardless of philosophy denying them EAD is cheap shot.

[EB22010Dec]

I see buzz around s386 any new news ?

[gs1968]

I see buzz around s386 any new news ?

UC attempt at 530pm after Lee reached agreement with Scott and modified the bill. Fate unclear as no details of the amendment publicly available. Appears like it directly or indirectly bars or makes it much harder for Chinese students to enter the USA

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

UC attempt at 530pm after Lee reached agreement with Scott and modified the bill. Fate unclear as no details of the amendment publicly available. Appears like it directly or indirectly bars or makes it much harder for Chinese students to enter the USA

Yeah, they will have the UC and some new Senator will object and that will be the end of it. This is just a mirage, don't chase it.

[gs1968]

Yeah, they will have the UC and some new Senator will object and that will be the end of it. This is just a mirage, don't chase it.

We will wait and see. It still has to pass the house as is it is as there is no time for conference. Trump/Miller will be the wild card but I would sense that they signed off on this

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

We will wait and see. It still has to pass the house as is it is as there is no time for conference. Trump/Miller will be the wild card but I would sense that they signed off on this

Even if it passes both chambers which is a very low probability, Trump is not going to sign anything other than a negotiated covid bill.

[gs1968]

Passed by Unanimous consent

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Well, that was quick. The bill just passed the Senate.

[abcx13]

Latest draft posted by IV:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lgmvcyofx...12020.pdf?dl=0

So now it just needs to be reconciled by the Senate and the House and signed by Trump?

[gs1968]

The biggest change is the Chinese exclusion provision which could be a problem in the House. It prohibits admission or adjustment of status of Chinese nationals that are part of the CCP or the military. China has compulsory military service for its youth and theoretically it can exclude many people both abroad and here in the USA but they do allow discretion of the Secretary of State and Director of National Intelligence. The House passed a very basic version of the Bill last summer and there has been many ornaments added to the tree.Hopefully they can squeeze time in between the negotiations for the Omnibus Bill and COVID to get this done. If there is 2/3 support it can be passed by suspension of rules and sent to the President.

[gs1968]

Latest draft posted by IV:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lgmvcyofx...12020.pdf?dl=0

So now it just needs to be reconciled by the Senate and the House and signed by Trump?

Correct. Time is too short for conference or committee review by the House so it comes down to a take it or leave it proposition for the House. Unfortunately the implementation for cap removal is now pushed to October 1 2022 (almost 2 years from now). That language was preserved.

[gs1968]

Can Spec or other experts explain what Section 8 means? It appears that no more than 70% of GCs in a category can be converted from H-1b or H4 status i.e 28000 per category. Is this correct? Also was this section there in the previous version?

[qesehmk]

Even if it passes both chambers which is a very low probability, Trump is not going to sign anything other than a negotiated covid bill.

I haven't read the bill yet. So more later ...

But Trump will sign it if it reaches him.

I think GOP's calculation is that the house will take a pass. Dems are in a bind. If they pass Trump gets the credit for something Biden is eager to. But now if House passes on this one, that gives great excuse for future GOP senate to not do it during biden admin.

Let's hope Biden asks Pelosi to do the right thing and stand with it. Perhaps let's run a campaign to send letters to Biden and Pelosi to ask them to pass it.

[idliman]

Correct. Time is too short for conference or committee review by the House so it comes down to a take it or leave it proposition for the House. Unfortunately the implementation for cap removal is now pushed to October 1 2022 (almost 2 years from now). That language was preserved.

I did not believe it when I first saw this a few minutes ago. Don't know what games are being played. I think, the R's calculated that the best chance of blocking the bills from Congressional Hispanic Caucus is to get this thing done. R.Scott would not have removed it unless a) he had the blessing of DT admin or b) R's are sure that there is no time to get this bill through. This lame duck is tricky. However, it gives everyone an excuse to vote for this bill.

[qesehmk]

redline12012020.pdf Please see the pdf attached.