Discrimination at Motor Vehicle Dept

[hope21]

Wanted to share the first hand experience of discrimination out in the public (where you can least expect). I went to one of the locations in DMV in NJ at around 4:30 PM yesterday for my wife's license renewal (my wife is on H1). They asked everyone that if they were US citizens, for those they were allowing for 6 point check and giving them numbers for renewal window. If anyone is not a citizen, they made us stand in a separate line(for which I had my doubts after standing there for 5 mins).

On further enquiry by folks like us, they said for anyone who is not a citizen, their server/system is down. My doubt was further confirmed by the following incidents. I asked, can I at least be in the line for 6 point check, and when I would actually reach the window for license renewal, I will let the person behind me to go first. On that I got an arrogant reply, did not I hear what was told by his supervisor that for us/this line system is down. Some of the fellow citizens also were asking the security guy - why they are making us stand in this way, is it part of the new administration/wave(they were asking about racism as we all know), the answer to that was a smile/slight nod. All throughout, we were told by security, he does not think system will be up today (but its up to us if we want to wait), now a days its down a lot and specifically every Saturday it is down. My doubt was further confirmed by the following. We were standing in that line from 4:30 PM until 5:20 PM (After around 50 mins, again the security guy came and said the same thing, I think you guys should go). Now suddenly his supervisor saw that all the booths were empty and their employees were sitting idle. Right at that moment his supervisor came and said he can send first 3 of the total 10 of us in queue. So, what was happening was, because of rush, they wanted to take care of the citizens first because it was busy time. If they had time, then they will take care of some of us in the line. This was happening all in the open and everyone in queue knew it. Irony is, this was all happening right under the nose of where it was written 'Discrimination of any kind is punishable offense'. At that time, I was thinking, probably I should record that and give it to one of the channels, but on second thoughts I decided not to, as I don't want to jeopardize my status/specifically these days when the regular wait time for GCs is more than 10 years. Why I posted here was so

Moderators can take this down after couple of days. I wanted to share this story for two reasons - 1) For Education purposes, If you are going to DMV in NJ (not sure its happening anywhere else as well), go at off peak hours so that your are not treated like third grade citizens/folks/this way.

2) Was deeply hurt after experiencing this incident first hand, as if waiting for more than 10 years is not enough for just getting GC, there are these kind of things happening. Is it all worth it, what's more in store for us, not sure whether we are moving forward in this 21st century or we are going back in time... With a heavy heart, let's leave it at that.

[newyorker123]

Where in NJ, hope21 ? This is sad.

[qesehmk]

hope21 - there are scumbags in all societies. IMHO things are never as rosy or as pessimistic as they seem.

All I can say is ... live free. GC or no GC, don't take shit from nobody. Doesn't mean go out fighting silly things ... but if something deeply bothers you, you better speak up.

Good luck and godspeed with your GC.

Wanted to share the first hand experience of discrimination out in the public (where you can least expect). I went to one of the locations in DMV in NJ at around 4:30 PM yesterday for my wife's license renewal (my wife is on H1). They asked everyone that if they were US citizens, for those they were allowing for 6 point check and giving them numbers for renewal window. If anyone is not a citizen, they made us stand in a separate line(for which I had my doubts after standing there for 5 mins).

On further enquiry by folks like us, they said for anyone who is not a citizen, their server/system is down. My doubt was further confirmed by the following incidents. I asked, can I at least be in the line for 6 point check, and when I would actually reach the window for license renewal, I will let the person behind me to go first. On that I got an arrogant reply, did not I hear what was told by his supervisor that for us/this line system is down. Some of the fellow citizens also were asking the security guy - why they are making us stand in this way, is it part of the new administration/wave(they were asking about racism as we all know), the answer to that was a smile/slight nod. All throughout, we were told by security, he does not think system will be up today (but its up to us if we want to wait), now a days its down a lot and specifically every Saturday it is down. My doubt was further confirmed by the following. We were standing in that line from 4:30 PM until 5:20 PM (After around 50 mins, again the security guy came and said the same thing, I think you guys should go). Now suddenly his supervisor saw that all the booths were empty and their employees were sitting idle. Right at that moment his supervisor came and said he can send first 3 of the total 10 of us in queue. So, what was happening was, because of rush, they wanted to take care of the citizens first because it was busy time. If they had time, then they will take care of some of us in the line. This was happening all in the open and everyone in queue knew it. Irony is, this was all happening right under the nose of where it was written 'Discrimination of any kind is punishable offense'. At that time, I was thinking, probably I should record that and give it to one of the channels, but on second thoughts I decided not to, as I don't want to jeopardize my status/specifically these days when the regular wait time for GCs is more than 10 years. Why I posted here was so

Moderators can take this down after couple of days. I wanted to share this story for two reasons - 1) For Education purposes, If you are going to DMV in NJ (not sure its happening anywhere else as well), go at off peak hours so that your are not treated like third grade citizens/folks/this way.

2) Was deeply hurt after experiencing this incident first hand, as if waiting for more than 10 years is not enough for just getting GC, there are these kind of things happening. Is it all worth it, what's more in store for us, not sure whether we are moving forward in this 21st century or we are going back in time... With a heavy heart, let's leave it at that.

[EB2IndSep09]

hope21

I resonate with you on this. I had similar experiences at DMV last few weeks.
It all started with my kid who is on H4 seeking a driver's permit in the mid of March. Kid is a senior in High School now and has been refraining to get the permit from more than 9 months after passing the test at school due to the obvious reasons how they treat us. I have encouraged to give it a shot and see and told it is tough to be legal and correct but one has nothing to worry about it. "Truth alone triumphs"

We went to a DMV close to our place on the weekend of March 24. We stood in line along with all others at reception and as the line was growing, one lady from the office approached each individual asking the reason of visit and sending them to windows which are open. When it was our turn she said the system to validate the visa status is down and sent us home. We thought it was not our day and returned.

We went back again on Apr 4th as that is spring break (I took a day off at work to accomodate) and stood in line again. This time it took only 20 mins as there were very few people and the receptionist checked all the forms and advised we have to go to a different facility as this is a learner permit and cited the location in the driviers manual. If we were to opt to use the faciltity that will be a two step process (common for all - no descrimination). We went to the different location which is 10 miles away cited by receptionist in the manual, we stood in line for 20 mins to get the form to be filled and then to validate we were asked to again get in the line which took us another 25 minutes. Now comes the verification of documents by another person who said we need a non eligibility letter for SSN (SSN Denial Form) from Social Security Office. Also they need the H1 petitioner to be along with the kid carrying H1 documentation too. In this case that is my spouse so had no choice. So we go to the Social security office near by and apparently they moved to another location which is 15 miles away. I have to tell you all, that is one state of the art facility of Social Security office I have been to. It is as good as a US Consulate overseas very organized. By this time more than half day is gone so we dropped the idea of going back to DMV for that day as I had some other errands to run.

We planned and returned to DMV on following Tuesday Apr 10 as they are open late. My Spouse, kid, myself all of us went with all documentation to the DMV, the paper work has been verified by the second examiner but he was not convinced that my Kid's visa in passport has expired and the H4 extension document alone is not sufficient. I told him that we were getting all renewals from past 12 years the same way and to my knowledge the rules did not change. He said he will go check with the supervisor and comes back and says the paper work is inline with what is required. We got a token and waited in the seating area for 30 mins. Our turn came, my kid and spouse goes to the window and after 5-10 mins there was a lot of commotion and a lady at the window started yelling that she is on a visa with no SSN and she cannot provide the drivers license. All 50-60 people in the area became spectators. I dashed to the window and had to raise my voice challenging her what the heck is going on? She keeps on telling that the kid has no SSN. I told her stop talking non sense and give me the correct reason. My kid bursted into tears and told that we should go back and never turn, urged me at one point to keep my voice down. Kid was more worried that everybody was looking at her in a different way. I told her not to worry and started discussing the matter with the lady in the window. At last DMV person told that main DMV office who is supposed to assign a temporary number in such cases will close early and she will not be able to assist. Another lesson learnt, do not assume the extended hours are for all cases. I told her it is not my problem and we were running around from past 3 weeks for this license. She then apologized and asked us to come direct to her window next time whenever we are visiting during normal hours.

So the following saturday on Apr 14th we went direct to her window and got the driver's permit for the kid. This time no questions asked, no commotion, no drama.

Why am I sharing this?
There are a lot of parents like me who are in the same boat, so what type of message we are giving to our kids MATTERS!! You have to teach them how to standup for themselves.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. - Chinese Proverb

[skpanda]

My story (not as bad.. but just wanted to share):

Have been in the country for 13 years on H1B. Always renewed using Visa. In my state (Florida) they give you DL till the date of expiration of your visa.

This year, we (me and my wife) had to renew my DL so i go online to take an appointment. I noticed that some of the other facilities list 'Citizens Only' for some services including DL renewal. This is the first time I saw something like that. Previously I could go to any facility. So I choose the facility that does not show 'Citizens Only'. Online website did not ask me for details such as whether I am citizen or PR or visa holder etc. So i took appointment at that Facility.

We reach DMV at my appointed time. I wait for my turn (about 45 minutes) in DMV. When I go to the counter, the lady says they will not renew my license at that facility since that facility handles only Citizen's license renewals. I have to go to another facility 15 miles away (total 35 miles away from my home).

I asked them politely, why they did not mention this information when granting appointments for their location. They told me that they did. I pulled the online website on phone and showed them that other facilities did that but not their facility. The lady said it did not matter and she cannot help me.

By this time I was pissed. I told her (in a agitated way) flatly I am not going anywhere until my license is renewed. Then a security guard comes behind the lady in the counter and asks me to move aside to a different counter that was not in use. I complied and asked him to get me the supervisor. The supervisor repeated what the lady in the counter said and showed me a piece of paper that listed her location as citizens only. I showed her the website and said, people do not have her paper that she showed, but people refer to the website.

She was adament and I was adament too. I repeated, no matter what I am not leaving the facility until my license is renewed. Its not my problem that their website is not updated or it does not have the intelligence to stop non-citizens from taking appointments.

Finally the supervisor relented and renewed our license. I advised her to update the damn website if she does not want this to be repeated with others and waste everybody's time.


Note: I am normally very amicable and try to adjust and accommodate. Rarely I get angry. This time i got angry because my 7 month pregnant wife was with me and everybody at DMV could see her bump. They had no compassion or consideration even though it was their problem. I had to take a stand.


Peace!

hope21

I resonate with you on this. I had similar experiences at DMV last few weeks.
It all started with my kid who is on H4 seeking a driver's permit in the mid of March. Kid is a senior in High School now and has been refraining to get the permit from more than 9 months after passing the test at school due to the obvious reasons how they treat us. I have encouraged to give it a shot and see and told it is tough to be legal and correct but one has nothing to worry about it. "Truth alone triumphs"

We went to a DMV close to our place on the weekend of March 24. We stood in line along with all others at reception and as the line was growing, one lady from the office approached each individual asking the reason of visit and sending them to windows which are open. When it was our turn she said the system to validate the visa status is down and sent us home. We thought it was not our day and returned.

We went back again on Apr 4th as that is spring break (I took a day off at work to accomodate) and stood in line again. This time it took only 20 mins as there were very few people and the receptionist checked all the forms and advised we have to go to a different facility as this is a learner permit and cited the location in the driviers manual. If we were to opt to use the faciltity that will be a two step process (common for all - no descrimination). We went to the different location which is 10 miles away cited by receptionist in the manual, we stood in line for 20 mins to get the form to be filled and then to validate we were asked to again get in the line which took us another 25 minutes. Now comes the verification of documents by another person who said we need a non eligibility letter for SSN (SSN Denial Form) from Social Security Office. Also they need the H1 petitioner to be along with the kid carrying H1 documentation too. In this case that is my spouse so had no choice. So we go to the Social security office near by and apparently they moved to another location which is 15 miles away. I have to tell you all, that is one state of the art facility of Social Security office I have been to. It is as good as a US Consulate overseas very organized. By this time more than half day is gone so we dropped the idea of going back to DMV for that day as I had some other errands to run.

We planned and returned to DMV on following Tuesday Apr 10 as they are open late. My Spouse, kid, myself all of us went with all documentation to the DMV, the paper work has been verified by the second examiner but he was not convinced that my Kid's visa in passport has expired and the H4 extension document alone is not sufficient. I told him that we were getting all renewals from past 12 years the same way and to my knowledge the rules did not change. He said he will go check with the supervisor and comes back and says the paper work is inline with what is required. We got a token and waited in the seating area for 30 mins. Our turn came, my kid and spouse goes to the window and after 5-10 mins there was a lot of commotion and a lady at the window started yelling that she is on a visa with no SSN and she cannot provide the drivers license. All 50-60 people in the area became spectators. I dashed to the window and had to raise my voice challenging her what the heck is going on? She keeps on telling that the kid has no SSN. I told her stop talking non sense and give me the correct reason. My kid bursted into tears and told that we should go back and never turn, urged me at one point to keep my voice down. Kid was more worried that everybody was looking at her in a different way. I told her not to worry and started discussing the matter with the lady in the window. At last DMV person told that main DMV office who is supposed to assign a temporary number in such cases will close early and she will not be able to assist. Another lesson learnt, do not assume the extended hours are for all cases. I told her it is not my problem and we were running around from past 3 weeks for this license. She then apologized and asked us to come direct to her window next time whenever we are visiting during normal hours.

So the following saturday on Apr 14th we went direct to her window and got the driver's permit for the kid. This time no questions asked, no commotion, no drama.

Why am I sharing this?
There are a lot of parents like me who are in the same boat, so what type of message we are giving to our kids MATTERS!! You have to teach them how to standup for themselves.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. - Chinese Proverb

[tenyearsgone]

@folks on this thread.. It is frustrating and disheartening to hear your experiences. This is a case of underlying prejudices finding a voice in the current environment. The DMV has been another frontier for legal immigrants in recent years.

[hope21]

Where in NJ, hope21 ? This is sad.

Rahway nj

[hope21]

hope21 - there are scumbags in all societies. IMHO things are never as rosy or as pessimistic as they seem.

All I can say is ... live free. GC or no GC, don't take shit from nobody. Doesn't mean go out fighting silly things ... but if something deeply bothers you, you better speak up.

Good luck and godspeed with your GC.

Very well said Q, you are right. No right/wrong thing here, we should listen to our heart and decide wisely (no knee jerk reactions). That's why I thought of recording but controlled myself.. I was shocked more than hurt, otherwise fine, no big deal. Ideally, they want to do give something extra to citizens, there should be a process like they should have separate queues - citizens / non- citizens like they have at airports. No hard feelings there, we are immigrants we know that, but why lie.... They should have the guts not to lie/do the right way, if you want to do it.., thanks for the wise words and these forums help each other a lot.

[hope21]

You did the right thing, thanks for sharing.

hope21

I resonate with you on this. I had similar experiences at DMV last few weeks.
It all started with my kid who is on H4 seeking a driver's permit in the mid of March. Kid is a senior in High School now and has been refraining to get the permit from more than 9 months after passing the test at school due to the obvious reasons how they treat us. I have encouraged to give it a shot and see and told it is tough to be legal and correct but one has nothing to worry about it. "Truth alone triumphs"

We went to a DMV close to our place on the weekend of March 24. We stood in line along with all others at reception and as the line was growing, one lady from the office approached each individual asking the reason of visit and sending them to windows which are open. When it was our turn she said the system to validate the visa status is down and sent us home. We thought it was not our day and returned.

We went back again on Apr 4th as that is spring break (I took a day off at work to accomodate) and stood in line again. This time it took only 20 mins as there were very few people and the receptionist checked all the forms and advised we have to go to a different facility as this is a learner permit and cited the location in the driviers manual. If we were to opt to use the faciltity that will be a two step process (common for all - no descrimination). We went to the different location which is 10 miles away cited by receptionist in the manual, we stood in line for 20 mins to get the form to be filled and then to validate we were asked to again get in the line which took us another 25 minutes. Now comes the verification of documents by another person who said we need a non eligibility letter for SSN (SSN Denial Form) from Social Security Office. Also they need the H1 petitioner to be along with the kid carrying H1 documentation too. In this case that is my spouse so had no choice. So we go to the Social security office near by and apparently they moved to another location which is 15 miles away. I have to tell you all, that is one state of the art facility of Social Security office I have been to. It is as good as a US Consulate overseas very organized. By this time more than half day is gone so we dropped the idea of going back to DMV for that day as I had some other errands to run.

We planned and returned to DMV on following Tuesday Apr 10 as they are open late. My Spouse, kid, myself all of us went with all documentation to the DMV, the paper work has been verified by the second examiner but he was not convinced that my Kid's visa in passport has expired and the H4 extension document alone is not sufficient. I told him that we were getting all renewals from past 12 years the same way and to my knowledge the rules did not change. He said he will go check with the supervisor and comes back and says the paper work is inline with what is required. We got a token and waited in the seating area for 30 mins. Our turn came, my kid and spouse goes to the window and after 5-10 mins there was a lot of commotion and a lady at the window started yelling that she is on a visa with no SSN and she cannot provide the drivers license. All 50-60 people in the area became spectators. I dashed to the window and had to raise my voice challenging her what the heck is going on? She keeps on telling that the kid has no SSN. I told her stop talking non sense and give me the correct reason. My kid bursted into tears and told that we should go back and never turn, urged me at one point to keep my voice down. Kid was more worried that everybody was looking at her in a different way. I told her not to worry and started discussing the matter with the lady in the window. At last DMV person told that main DMV office who is supposed to assign a temporary number in such cases will close early and she will not be able to assist. Another lesson learnt, do not assume the extended hours are for all cases. I told her it is not my problem and we were running around from past 3 weeks for this license. She then apologized and asked us to come direct to her window next time whenever we are visiting during normal hours.

So the following saturday on Apr 14th we went direct to her window and got the driver's permit for the kid. This time no questions asked, no commotion, no drama.

Why am I sharing this?
There are a lot of parents like me who are in the same boat, so what type of message we are giving to our kids MATTERS!! You have to teach them how to standup for themselves.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. - Chinese Proverb