Hatch Amendment Discussion

[qesehmk]

In any of the forums or among Indians in USA no one mentioned H1b cap is an issue at the same time all agree that backlog is main issue. So agreeing for increasing backlog(H1b increase) does not make sense whatever so called principle. Just you want to remove the backlog but you agree for increasing backlog. I was not convinced by the term principle.

The principle being - Support ALL immigrants and not just those from certain categories or countries or those at certain stage of their immigrant journey.

[imdeng]

I am with Q on this back-and-forth. A part of the country is pro-immigrant and a part is anti-immigrant. Folks that are anti-immigrant do not see much of a difference between H1B and GC (or for that matter Undocumented and H1B) - it is all part of foreign invasion to them. For some it is cultural invasion (nativist conservatives) and for other it is a labor invasion (AFL-CIO and the likes). Partnering with any of them to reduce any kind of immigration, IMHO, is stupid. They will leverage you to shut/slow down the "other" kind of immigration - and then turn around and partner with someone else to shut/slow down your kind of immigration as well.

In my mind, more labor mobility in the form of more H1B is a good thing - both for the American economy and for global (not just Indian) skilled labor. What makes it better is that it is meritocratic - no country quotas. If that increases GC backlog then of course that is something that needs to be dealt with but that does not make H1B a bad thing. Regarding the backlog, my personal opinion is that *some* backlog is a good thing. US GC/Citizenship is a precious thing and there should be some barrier to entry here - I am fine with 3-4 years wait. What I am not fine with is the biased nature of this wait. Just end country quotas, get everyone on the same queue with reasonable wait of 3-4 years and we have a good system here.

We should all remember that all this could have been moot had the Republicans brought the Senate Immigration Bill for a vote in the house last year. We must never forget and pay back those responsible for this outrage by A. Voting and B. Contributing as much as you can to their opposition when we get the citizenship and GC respectively.

[Ramsen]

The principle being - Support ALL immigrants and not just those from certain categories or countries or those at certain stage of their immigrant journey.

This kind of rigidness was main hurdle for any immigration reform. Anyhow this rigidness from persons like you and me will not have any impact. But from pro immigration groups who are lobbying will have definitely will have impact. For any immigration bill H1b increase is poison pill. That too Exemption for STEM is definitely killer for any reform. Unless you make compromise with AFL CIO and senators like Grassley you will never see any reform for decades. You have have to see how much easy was pass seperate H1b for STEM with 20k cap. That time also AFL CIO was there but they did not oppose so much because the numbers were reasonable and the bill was passed almost unanimously. Now see the numbers in I-Squared act and other bills. There is zero chance even for negotiation. If they try to push the bills Grassley will ready with his protection amendment and they will back out and finally status quo.It was the situation from 2006 and may be till 2026 or even more.

[qesehmk]

This kind of rigidness was main hurdle for any immigration reform. Anyhow this rigidness from persons like you and me will not have any impact. But from pro immigration groups who are lobbying will have definitely will have impact. For any immigration bill H1b increase is poison pill. That too Exemption for STEM is definitely killer for any reform. Unless you make compromise with AFL CIO and senators like Grassley you will never see any reform for decades. You have have to see how much easy was pass seperate H1b for STEM with 20k cap. That time also AFL CIO was there but they did not oppose so much because the numbers were reasonable and the bill was passed almost unanimously. Now see the numbers in I-Squared act and other bills. There is zero chance even for negotiation. If they try to push the bills Grassley will ready with his protection amendment and they will back out and finally status quo.It was the situation from 2006 and may be till 2026 or even more.

Stopping future immigration is no good way to solve current backlog. If you don't see that then lets just agree to disagree.

[Ramsen]

Stopping future immigration is no good way to solve current backlog. If you don't see that then lets just agree to disagree.

The status quo or just expansion of gc without H1b is not stopping of future immigration. Every year 85k cap subjected H1bs plus around 50k cap exempted h1bs and thousands of L1b are coming every year. If you include dependents then that almost 50% or 100% more than the count, Those were only in high tech excluding B1. And More than 1 million GC are given in one year. So backlog removal without H1b addition is not stopping the future immigration or anti immigration. Only if there is attempt to reduce the numbers without any basis will be considered as anti immigration. I am not seeing any attempt by AFL CIO or any other groups

[qesehmk]

If H1 was being raised triple which somebody opposes - then it is anti-immigrant - period.

You don't want to accept your narrow interests and narrow vision - is your problem.

Second the Hatch amendment any way didn't have much chance. So discussing it is a moot point. What's being discussed is only a principle.

The reason I even spend time discussing this is because there are lots and lots of gullible people who have no clue about not only green card process but also about the lack of any influence of H1B on immigration policy. The fundamental fact is that the industry and political landscape is against EB immigration (not by any evil design - but just "IS"). Any organization that claims to have mobilized anything and influenced anything is selling horseshit to you.

I can take a horse to the water but can't make him drink it. So be it. I did my job.

The status quo or just expansion of gc without H1b is not stopping of future immigration. Every year 85k cap subjected H1bs plus around 50k cap exempted h1bs and thousands of L1b are coming every year. If you include dependents then that almost 50% or 100% more than the count, Those were only in high tech excluding B1. And More than 1 million GC are given in one year. So backlog removal without H1b addition is not stopping the future immigration or anti immigration. Only if there is attempt to reduce the numbers without any basis will be considered as anti immigration. I am not seeing any attempt by AFL CIO or any other groups

[pdfeb09]

In any of the forums or among Indians in USA no one mentioned H1b cap is an issue at the same time all agree that backlog is main issue. So agreeing for increasing backlog(H1b increase) does not make sense whatever so called principle. Just you want to remove the backlog but you agree for increasing backlog. I was not convinced by the term principle.

I am definitely with Q on this one. Opposing the H1B (expansion ) to stop the backlog from getting worse is a ridiculous thought. First of all I don't, even for a minute, think that it will help any(backlogged) GC seeker that is already in the line. So then, what is the problem we are trying to solve? Make the line better for those that will be prevented from getting in the line? How does that help?

From your post, you cite the evidence that you have not seen people complaining about H1B on the forums. Dude, you don't need forums to see how many are affected. People, whose companies need them and are willing to employ them, cannot get H1b and have to let go of the opportunities all the time. Just talk to any desi and mention H1B trouble .. I am sure you will get plenty of anecdotes.

[amulchandra]

If H1 was being raised triple which somebody opposes - then it is anti-immigrant - period.

You don't want to accept your narrow interests and narrow vision - is your problem.

Second the Hatch amendment any way didn't have much chance. So discussing it is a moot point. What's being discussed is only a principle.

The reason I even spend time discussing this is because there are lots and lots of gullible people who have no clue about not only green card process but also about the lack of any influence of H1B on immigration policy. The fundamental fact is that the industry and political landscape is against EB immigration (not by any evil design - but just "IS"). Any organization that claims to have mobilized anything and influenced anything is selling horseshit to you.

I can take a horse to the water but can't make him drink it. So be it. I did my job.

Disclaimer: I might sound selfish but just my thought.

Any increase in H1B cap will affect EB3 I adversely. H1b feeds EB GC queue. If H1b cap increases more ROW people will apply, means more GC applicants , which means reduced (if any) SO to India EB3.

I know that since ROW is current, companies can apply for GC directly without going through the hassle of H1b. But with out trying the candidate for some time companies usually do not apply for GC.

The same thing might apply for EB2 as well. With out fixing the current GC backlogs adding more candidates to the pool will be a problem.

[gcq]

From a personal level, I don't believe H1B increase should be blocked. Now that we are in gc queue or post gc phase, we should not stop future flow of immigrants. USA is a land of opportunity, it is also a land of competitiveness. So shying away from competition is not an option for us, we should thrive above it.

The stand ** has taken is not a plain opposition to H1B increase, it is just a strategy.

[incredible]

I believe this is exactly what the "principle" that Q was mentioning about. In principle we should not be against H1B, if we are not against GC. Reducing H1B to improve backlog, is a flawed approach for over all immigration. The issue of GC queue is entirely a different issue and that needs to be addressed regardless of the country (probably through legislature).

Disclaimer: I might sound selfish but just my thought.

Any increase in H1B cap will affect EB3 I adversely. H1b feeds EB GC queue. If H1b cap increases more ROW people will apply, means more GC applicants , which means reduced (if any) SO to India EB3.

I know that since ROW is current, companies can apply for GC directly without going through the hassle of H1b. But with out trying the candidate for some time companies usually do not apply for GC.

The same thing might apply for EB2 as well. With out fixing the current GC backlogs adding more candidates to the pool will be a problem.

[Ramsen]

I believe this is exactly what the "principle" that Q was mentioning about. In principle we should not be against H1B, if we are not against GC. Reducing H1B to improve backlog, is a flawed approach for over all immigration. The issue of GC queue is entirely a different issue and that needs to be addressed regardless of the country (probably through legislature).

I think those who are telling as so called principle of supporting increase of H1b cap will realize sooner or later and act based on that. There is no data to support increase of H1b. If you show the data how many jobs are created so many bills would not have blocked from 2006 at the same time law makers accepted H1b increase of upto 185 in 2000. You can chose between the two. Support h1b increase and keep status quo or oppose H1b and there is some chance backlog reduction. So far all the bills were going nowhere mainly because of H1b increase. Even IEEE, AFL CIO supported green card expansion but opposed H1b increase. Anyhow choice is yours. If H1b increase is in the bill without protection then the bill will not go out of Senate Judiciary committee as Grassley is Chairman till 2016.

[jdoe99]

I think those who are telling as so called principle of supporting increase of H1b cap will realize sooner or later and act based on that. There is no data to support increase of H1b. If you show the data how many jobs are created so many bills would not have blocked from 2006 at the same time law makers accepted H1b increase of upto 185 in 2000. You can chose between the two. Support h1b increase and keep status quo or oppose H1b and there is some chance backlog reduction. So far all the bills were going nowhere mainly because of H1b increase. Even IEEE, AFL CIO supported green card expansion but opposed H1b increase. Anyhow choice is yours. If H1b increase is in the bill without protection then the bill will not go out of Senate Judiciary committee as Grassley is Chairman till 2016.

Others in this thread have articulated their stand clearly on the H1 issue. You have got to be kidding if you don't think H1 is an issue or if you think there is no data to support H1 increase. If there is no demand how is it that the quota runs out every year (in few days in the recent years). Ask any graduating MS or PhD student the pains and whether it is a huge burden on them or not. The 20K cap is of no consequence when there are over 100K graduating. Again, be upfront in saying that you don't want others to come in and get H1's so that it magically reduces the backlog. The backlog and H1's are two different issues. Stop it with the holier than thou attitude. I get where you are coming from and this is not the site for you to try and advocate your lobbying.

[Ramsen]

Others in this thread have articulated their stand clearly on the H1 issue. You have got to be kidding if you don't think H1 is an issue or if you think there is no data to support H1 increase. If there is no demand how is it that the quota runs out every year (in few days in the recent years). Ask any graduating MS or PhD student the pains and whether it is a huge burden on them or not. The 20K cap is of no consequence when there are over 100K graduating. Again, be upfront in saying that you don't want others to come in and get H1's so that it magically reduces the backlog. The backlog and H1's are two different issues. Stop it with the holier than thou attitude. I get where you are coming from and this is not the site for you to try and advocate your lobbying.

If you think number of applications only matters for H1b applications then you do not have genuine data. Because of population increase and increase of number of students in USA number of applications always increase. You need to count how much consulting companies apply for H1b by getting money from consultants and 80:20 or 70:30 deals after consultants find the clients themselves. The data I am asking is how many new jobs are created and how many are unfilled. They will only show 2000 in Microsft and 3000 in facebook etc. That data stays the same for every year with no increase or decrease. Can you show real unfilled jobs data for last year or last few years. If you really show the demand for H1b why congress does not care to listen to you. In Obama period we saw democrat majority and GOP majority. Why no party is not able to pass H1b increase bill. How come AFL CIO and IEEE could prevent bills which was sponsored by mighty corporations which are ready to spend millions of dollars? I am not lobbying for or against H1b but it is just opinion. If you lobby for H1b increase my opinion cannot prevent but you cannot succeed unless you have strong data for your lobbying. Just presenting pains of MS and Phd holders in congress will not fly.

[qesehmk]

If you think number of applications only matters for H1b applications then you do not have genuine data. Because of population increase and increase of number of students in USA number of applications always increase. You need to count how much consulting companies apply for H1b by getting money from consultants and 80:20 or 70:30 deals after consultants find the clients themselves. The data I am asking is how many new jobs are created and how many are unfilled. They will only show 2000 in Microsft and 3000 in facebook etc. That data stays the same for every year with no increase or decrease. Can you show real unfilled jobs data for last year or last few years. If you really show the demand for H1b why congress does not care to listen to you. In Obama period we saw democrat majority and GOP majority. Why no party is not able to pass H1b increase bill. How come AFL CIO and IEEE could prevent bills which was sponsored by mighty corporations which are ready to spend millions of dollars? I am not lobbying for or against H1b but it is just opinion. If you lobby for H1b increase my opinion cannot prevent but you cannot succeed unless you have strong data for your lobbying. Just presenting pains of MS and Phd holders in congress will not fly.

You or I don't want to be the gatekeeper for how many H1Bs are genuine. There already is a process under PERM for that. Any American person can raise objections to every position being posted as H1B.

Any pro immigration organization shouldn't be worried about validity of H1B positions nor they should be opposing any increase.

[jdoe99]

If you think number of applications only matters for H1b applications then you do not have genuine data. Because of population increase and increase of number of students in USA number of applications always increase. You need to count how much consulting companies apply for H1b by getting money from consultants and 80:20 or 70:30 deals after consultants find the clients themselves. The data I am asking is how many new jobs are created and how many are unfilled. They will only show 2000 in Microsft and 3000 in facebook etc. That data stays the same for every year with no increase or decrease. Can you show real unfilled jobs data for last year or last few years. If you really show the demand for H1b why congress does not care to listen to you. In Obama period we saw democrat majority and GOP majority. Why no party is not able to pass H1b increase bill. How come AFL CIO and IEEE could prevent bills which was sponsored by mighty corporations which are ready to spend millions of dollars? I am not lobbying for or against H1b but it is just opinion. If you lobby for H1b increase my opinion cannot prevent but you cannot succeed unless you have strong data for your lobbying. Just presenting pains of MS and Phd holders in congress will not fly.

As Q said, there is a process in place for checking validity. You can't discount the data on H1 demand by throwing up a strawman of new jobs/unfilled/MSFT/FB. That is your opinion not facts. There is a process for H1 application that checks for labor market and so on.

The reason nothing has changed is just because it takes a lot to move from status quo given the way congress,senate,immigration hawks are set up.

Presenting pains of MS/PhD holders is doing some job because if you look at the past few years there has been traction/main stream articles on how the US is training people and losing them to other countries with even the President speaking to this talking point. The STEM OPT extension and additional 20K H1 have come about due to this. Again, you are entitled to your opinions, not facts.

[Ramsen]

You or I don't want to be the gatekeeper for how many H1Bs are genuine. There already is a process under PERM for that. Any American person can raise objections to every position being posted as H1B.

Any pro immigration organization shouldn't be worried about validity of H1B positions nor they should be opposing any increase.

Couple of points in strategy of ** to be noted for their lobbying against H1b increase
1. If H1b increase without backlog removal is done companies may not push hard for backlog removal though they support if backlog removal is done separately.
2. H1b increase is facing more opposition than backlog removal among Americans. So it makes sense to insist on backlog removal and neutral on H1b increase.

[qesehmk]

Ramsen - my friend - this is my last response to you on this topic. You just keep moving your argument from one thing to another.

Now you are talking about motives behind resistance to H1B increase.

Lets first deal with #2 - that contradicts with the reality. The said organization resisted and crowed about their resistance and "victory" on resisting H1B increase.

On #1 - with or without the H1B increase the employers have a vested interest in not having backlogs removed at all !! This way they keep their slave workforce forever.

This is the reason I said that the whole strategy of resisting H1B was ill thought out.

And worse - when we see chest thumping then we know there is more theater there than substance.

Couple of points in strategy of ** to be noted for their lobbying against H1b increase
1. If H1b increase without backlog removal is done companies may not push hard for backlog removal though they support if backlog removal is done separately.
2. H1b increase is facing more opposition than backlog removal among Americans. So it makes sense to insist on backlog removal and neutral on H1b increase.