Discussion On The Politics of Immigration Reform (Comprehensive Or Otherwise)

[gcq]

I don't even know how to respond to your post as i find it illogical and don't even understand what you think should happen.

every white/asian (race ) in this country who are citizenship by birth should leave and go to europe / asia and all "hispanics" in the world can stay in USA??

That is the exact logic. Europeans/Asians who were born here or immigrated here should leave the country to its original people. It is hypocritical to say people of the continent to be at the mercy of immigrants/invaders. Moreover illegal immigrants are here for an economic reason that benefits both them and this country. If republicans were that serious about preventing illegal immigrants coming to this country, they could easily heavily fine businesses that employ them. That would prevent all illegal immigration. They wouldn't do that because most of their businesses run with the help of these illegal immigrants.

On another note I find it quite ridiculous that a christian majority country is not compassionate to the underprivileged people crossing across the border.
They make a big deal about their so called "christian values". However they have no compassion for poor people and many of them discriminate based on skin color.

Democrats may have held us hostage for illegal immigration, but democrats are the ones that have any soft corner for immigration. GOP is supporting us not because they love immigrants, but because we make their businesses successful. We happen to be unintended beneficiaries of their business friendliness.

[idiotic]

Another point.. My last one on this topic..

Crossing the border illegally is an "misdemeanor" according to law. I know many immigrants who have 1 misdemeanor(if that is the only one) in their records have got green card and eventual citizenship. (Trackitt posts are proofs). Illegal immigrants should be dealt with the same way as these "legal" immigrants with one misdemeanor. That is the "rule of law".

I know one of my friend hit an car in parking lot and did not leave a note and fled from the scene. Hit and Run is a misdeamenor as per rule of law and he was never caught. Even legal immigrants get away with "misdemeanors".

Not showing interest income in fixed deposits in India in US tax return is a Felony as per law which will prevent citizenship even according to current law and CIR. I know many of my collegues never do this in intent to save money(we already pay enough tax. Why more willingly is the argument i hear?). Well payroll taxes are never optional. The area which will show one's real law abiding nature is one's filing of income tax. I will leave it your judgement of how much law abiding we really are before judging others !!

[indiani]

It is not that easy. Grassley initially held the bill and later added his H1B reform which is totally an poison pill. If Grassley would have just been quiet, Harry reid would have had no issue in passing it with unanimous consent. Please be fair to people.

Even in house, remember democrats voted for the bill..
http://votesmart.org/bill/votes/37412#.UcU4A_nVCzk
House voting record out of 15 people voted Nay 13 were republicans..

As far as I remember, Grassley's amedment required employers to go through Labor process for each H1B. We all know how much pain labor process is..
And once you start the amendment process, everyone will throw their own monkey ones in.. The only way HR3012 would have passed is unanimous consent. Dems would have quietly passed the 1 page bill if Mr. Grassley did not sabotage.

Harry reid repetedly told HR3012 supporters like TechNet to go and talk to Grassley. Truth is talks broke down due to unreasonable amendments. The bill was always there on Senate calender to pass any day with unanimous consent.

Also, "Future flows" is a nice term for racism..

Adding, were there any other bills where republicans really sweated for legal immigrants? Please point me to same if any. The truth is republicans are enforcement only. Close the borders, reduce the immigration. Just pick the best hunting dogs. That's the truth.

well all your points were well taken but let me add If Democratic majority were so "STRONGLY FOR 3012" , they could have passed it without grassley's amendment as both the judiciary and the main senate is controlled by democrats.

everything you said is accurate and I agree with your point that if Grassley didn't come in the way , may be 3012 could have passed and also i think as a whole republicans in general are anti- all immigrants ( even though they claim to support legals ).

Inspite of all my opinions/ thoughts ; I have spent time and money for 3012 and significant time for CIR passage and will continue to do so

[indiani]

Another point.. My last one on this topic..

Crossing the border illegally is an "misdemeanor" according to law. I know many immigrants who have 1 misdemeanor(if that is the only one) in their records have got green card and eventual citizenship. (Trackitt posts are proofs). Illegal immigrants should be dealt with the same way as these "legal" immigrants with one misdemeanor. That is the "rule of law".

I know one of my friend hit an car in parking lot and did not leave a note and fled from the scene. Hit and Run is a misdeamenor as per rule of law and he was never caught. Even legal immigrants get away with "misdemeanors".

Not showing interest income in fixed deposits in India in US tax return is a Felony as per law which will prevent citizenship even according to current law and CIR. I know many of my collegues never do this in intent to save money(we already pay enough tax. Why more willingly is the argument i hear?). Well payroll taxes are never optional. The area which will show one's real law abiding nature is one's filing of income tax. I will leave it your judgement of how much law abiding we really are before judging others !!

I agree with the facts you gave but disagree with conclusions
: "Illegal immigrants should be dealt with the same way as these "legal" immigrants with one misdemeanor. That is the "rule of law"."
if something is rule of law and the executive branch is not following , the concerned groups can sue in the court but I am afraid based on the current law, "people who crossed border illegally and stayed for several years" if caught should be deported. I am not suggesting that should happen, I am just saying that is the law.

[indiani]

That is the exact logic. Europeans/Asians who were born here or immigrated here should leave the country to its original people. It is hypocritical to say people of the continent to be at the mercy of immigrants/invaders. Moreover illegal immigrants are here for an economic reason that benefits both them and this country. If republicans were that serious about preventing illegal immigrants coming to this country, they could easily heavily fine businesses that employ them. That would prevent all illegal immigration. They wouldn't do that because most of their businesses run with the help of these illegal immigrants.

On another note I find it quite ridiculous that a christian majority country is not compassionate to the underprivileged people crossing across the border.
They make a big deal about their so called "christian values". However they have no compassion for poor people and many of them discriminate based on skin color.

Democrats may have held us hostage for illegal immigration, but democrats are the ones that have any soft corner for immigration. GOP is supporting us not because they love immigrants, but because we make their businesses successful. We happen to be unintended beneficiaries of their business friendliness.

I am afraid you not following "your own value" , as i suspect you are an asian. shouldn't you go back to asia based on your logic. if you practice what you preach may be I will take "your values" seriously.

by the way this is not a "christian country" , only the far right uses it. folks who have enough education and logic especially younger folks aren't interested in "invisible man" in the sky or 'fairy tales' and the percentage of these folks are growing every year ( fastest growing group in the country- people without any religious affiliation )

Please do not take my post as "a personal attack", there is no other way i could have made my points . I meant absolutely no disrespect.

[idiotic]

well all your points were well taken but let me add If Democratic majority were so "STRONGLY FOR 3012" , they could have passed it without grassley's amendment as both the judiciary and the main senate is controlled by democrats.

I agree democrats were not adamant in getting HR 3012 passed but you got to see the reason behind it and be appreciative of it.
"Anti immigrant lobby in Washington is too powerful to fight piece by piece." The winning strategy is get all lobbying behind one bill and go for the kill(which is what is happening now and even then we are seeing still how much difficult it is).
If Reid would have filed cloture on a small one page bill it would needlessly raise questions among other lobbying organizations and it is not fair to criticize him for not doing this and stating he was the reason behind the bill dying. In the same way, we can even say Jason Chaffetz/Bob Goodlate/Boehner did not convince Grassley to stop giving amendments and let it pass. The credit for creating it and killing it should go to our republican buddies.
The only way HR3012 could have passed was quietly with unanimous consent

everything you said is accurate and I agree with your point that if Grassley didn't come in the way , may be 3012 could have passed and also i think as a whole republicans in general are anti- all immigrants ( even though they claim to support legals ).
Inspite of all my opinions/ thoughts ; I have spent time and money for 3012 and significant time for CIR passage and will continue to do so

Even I did. I followed, supported contributed and lobbied as much as I can. It was even in the Jobs council recommendation and Obama's Jobs's act the same year.

[idiotic]

I agree with the facts you gave but disagree with conclusions
: "Illegal immigrants should be dealt with the same way as these "legal" immigrants with one misdemeanor. That is the "rule of law"."
if something is rule of law and the executive branch is not following , the concerned groups can sue in the court but I am afraid based on the current law, "people who crossed border illegally and stayed for several years" if caught should be deported. I am not suggesting that should happen, I am just saying that is the law.

Current law is "people who crossed the border illegally should be deported and they should go back to their home country and stay there for 10 years and then eligible to reapply. They will become legal again and just like a person who has committed a misdemeanor". Obviously this is causing hardships in many families which is the real issue as 10 years is not a small time frame to be away from kids and family and CIR is just asking to let these people live here meanwhile without separating the families(as it is against American values). I see nothing greatly wrong with it. Legal immigrants with misdemeanors in their records are not treated in the same way.

[indiani]

I agree democrats were not adamant in getting HR 3012 passed but you got to see the reason behind it and be appreciative of it.
"Anti immigrant lobby in Washington is too powerful to fight piece by piece." The winning strategy is get all lobbying behind one bill and go for the kill(which is what is happening now and even then we are seeing still how much difficult it is).
If Reid would have filed cloture on a small one page bill it would needlessly raise questions among other lobbying organizations and it is not fair to criticize him for not doing this and stating he was the reason behind the bill dying. In the same way, we can even say Jason Chaffetz/Bob Goodlate/Boehner did not convince Grassley to stop giving amendments and let it pass. The credit for creating it and killing it should go to our republican buddies.
The only way HR3012 could have passed was quietly with unanimous consent



Even I did. I followed, supported contributed and lobbied as much as I can. It was even in the Jobs council recommendation and Obama's Jobs's act the same year.

I should admit that you have very good understanding of the political process and the "background' issues behind all these bills. My understanding has certainly changed after reading your posts and my prior opinions are purely based on my prior knowledge and now I am exactly on the same page with you assley (sorry for the typo) killed the bill.

Moreover I think you seem to be quite involved in the process far more than I am, I never went to DC but did everything locally

[indiani]

Current law is "people who crossed the border illegally should be deported and they should go back to their home country and stay there for 10 years and then eligible to reapply. They will become legal again and just like a person who has committed a misdemeanor". Obviously this is causing hardships in many families which is the real issue as 10 years is not a small time frame to be away from kids and family and CIR is just asking to let these people live here meanwhile without separating the families(as it is against American values). I see nothing greatly wrong with it. Legal immigrants with misdemeanors in their records are not treated in the same way.

I think you missed my point, i agree with what you want to happen and also why it should happen but i ahve trouble understanding when you say "its the rule of law". Please read you statement again as you seem to be a logical and knowledgable person and you might understand why i ahve trouble digesting that post

[qesehmk]

Rarely a debate has a happy ending. It takes a real man (or a woman) to see others point of view and indiani you certainly are one.

If I stepped on somebody's toes - my apologies to you (including immitime and abcx).

I should admit that you have very good understanding of the political process and the "background' issues behind all these bills. My understanding has certainly changed after reading your posts and my prior opinions are purely based on my prior knowledge and now I am exactly on the same page with you assley (sorry for the typo) killed the bill.

Moreover I think you seem to be quite involved in the process far more than I am, I never went to DC but did everything locally

[idiotic]

I should admit that you have very good understanding of the political process and the "background' issues behind all these bills. My understanding has certainly changed after reading your posts and my prior opinions are purely based on my prior knowledge and now I am exactly on the same page with you assley (sorry for the typo) killed the bill.

Moreover I think you seem to be quite involved in the process far more than I am, I never went to DC but did everything locally

Thanks. Let's fight as a whole immigrant group for the CIR as much as we can is what I would request everyone.

[idiotic]

I think you missed my point, i agree with what you want to happen and also why it should happen but i ahve trouble understanding when you say "its the rule of law". Please read you statement again as you seem to be a logical and knowledgable person and you might understand why i ahve trouble digesting that post

Agreed it wasn't politically correct. The point I was trying to make is "pathway to citizenship" is not wrong in any sense even as per the "rule of law". It is in line with the "rule of the law" as legal immigrants with "misdemeanors" get the same treatment. Under CIR these folks has to wait 10 years before they can get greened. the real point is where(inside or outside the country)?

I think making them wait 10 years is a fair punishment even inline with current law. These people were exploited and contributed to this society for years is the real truth. They intentionally kept the borders open for business owners to have unwritten slavery. Those who exploited them till now goes unpunished. The business owners who exploited them will go unpunished one bit.

If one does an wrong he should be held accountable and punished(not in a cruel way). We do speeding violation(civil infraction) we pay the fine get points and move on with it. One should not be held accountable forever. Crossing illegally has its own punishment and people should get the punishment but does not mean that we have to cruel in punishing. Separating kids and mothers is one of the worst cruelty. If the laws are so broken that these things happen in the scale of large numbers (millions as of today) law needs to be revised and we have to fair to these people.

[idiotic]

Rarely a debate has a happy ending. It takes a real man (or a woman) to see others point of view and indiani you certainly are one.

If I stepped on somebody's toes - my apologies to you (including immitime and abcx).

It take lot of courage to request for public apology also. I sincerely appreciate you for this.

[Ramsen]

I should admit that you have very good understanding of the political process and the "background' issues behind all these bills. My understanding has certainly changed after reading your posts and my prior opinions are purely based on my prior knowledge and now I am exactly on the same page with you assley (sorry for the typo) killed the bill.

Moreover I think you seem to be quite involved in the process far more than I am, I never went to DC but did everything locally

Probably this is final attempt by conservatives to delay or block the bill. Anyhow now it is done deal in Senate. But still house will try to block the bill anyhow. When there is so much struggle in Senate even after enough votes house is do or die for conservatives.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...190.html?hp=f2

The passing of 2013 CIR will have far reaching impact apart from immigration and social life. Anti immigrant groups like numbersusa,alipac,fair will become almost non existant. Also relevance of many pro immigrant groups and lobbysits including ** also will be lost as there will not any need for those as the people stop donating. So I am sure there will be extremely tough battle if there is battle in the house. Bohner may not have freedom as Mcconnell.

[idiotic]

Probably this is final attempt by conservatives to delay or block the bill. Anyhow now it is done deal in Senate. But still house will try to block the bill anyhow. When there is so much struggle in Senate even after enough votes house is do or die for conservatives.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...190.html?hp=f2

The passing of 2013 CIR will have far reaching impact apart from immigration and social life. Anti immigrant groups like numbersusa,alipac,fair will become almost non existant. Also relevance of many pro immigrant groups and lobbysits including ** also will be lost as there will not any need for those as the people stop donating. So I am sure there will be extremely tough battle if there is battle in the house. Bohner may not have freedom as Mcconnell.

We have to hope moderate republicans prevail in this historic fight. Let us help them. Please pick a lobbying organization of your choice and actively participate in calling and urging the senators to pass this next week. Especially NJ community where Chieasa is an unknown vote and actually he replaced a strong "yes" vote(Frank Lautenberg) recently..

Chiesa, Jeff - (R - NJ) Class II
1 RUSSELL COURTYARD WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3224
E-mail: Senator_Chiesa@Chiesa.Senate.gov

[rupen86]

We have to hope moderate republicans prevail in this historic fight. Let us help them. Please pick a lobbying organization of your choice and actively participate in calling and urging the senators to pass this next week. Especially NJ community where Chieasa is an unknown vote and actually he replaced a strong "yes" vote(Frank Lautenberg) recently..

Chiesa, Jeff - (R - NJ) Class II
1 RUSSELL COURTYARD WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3224
E-mail: Senator_Chiesa@Chiesa.Senate.gov

I sent an email and tried to call but call directly goes to voicemail and it is full so can't leave voice mail also.

[gcq]

I am afraid you not following "your own value" , as i suspect you are an asian. shouldn't you go back to asia based on your logic. if you practice what you preach may be I will take "your values" seriously.

by the way this is not a "christian country" , only the far right uses it. folks who have enough education and logic especially younger folks aren't interested in "invisible man" in the sky or 'fairy tales' and the percentage of these folks are growing every year ( fastest growing group in the country- people without any religious affiliation )

Please do not take my post as "a personal attack", there is no other way i could have made my points . I meant absolutely no disrespect.

My comments are meant for people who believe that illegals should not be allowed to immigrate in this country. I don't believe that line. I think you are not taking an argument for what it is, "an argument/debate point". What you responded was with a personal attack, not a counter argument.

I am an asian and I am not going back since I am compassionate for these illegal folks as well.

Please respond only if you have a valid point. Personal attack has no value in a debate.

[idiotic]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/249866832...=2114913880001

Must watch to understand the new felonious "funny" arguments.

=> 20000 border security .. big government.. ofcourse. it is commonsense.. but you asked and fought for it dude !! This way it is big governement other way it is open border..
=> E-Verify violation of 4th amedment of constitution. Isn't DMV also violation of 4th amedment then in same scale at state level? Social security violation of 4th amendment?
=> New Wall will be a standing embarrasement for republican party because we asked to build it.. Wooow.. I think these folks have MENSA membership.. My head is spinning

Why can't they just have the face to say "you know what. we do not have any reason but just kill this bill. we like the current system"..

http://video.foxnews.com/v/249866724...=2114913880001

[Jonty Rhodes]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/249866832...=2114913880001

Must watch to understand the new felonious "funny" arguments.

=> 20000 border security .. big government.. ofcourse. it is commonsense.. but you asked and fought for it dude !! This way it is big governement other way it is open border..
=> E-Verify violation of 4th amedment of constitution. Isn't DMV also violation of 4th amedment then in same scale at state level? Social security violation of 4th amendment?
=> New Wall will be a standing embarrasement for republican party because we asked to build it.. Wooow.. I think these folks have MENSA membership.. My head is spinning

Why can't they just have the face to say "you know what. we do not have any reason but just kill this bill. we like the current system"..

http://video.foxnews.com/v/249866724...=2114913880001

These guys are a bunch of loonies. No wonder they are losing the ground slowly with their ignorance and hatred. Fox news (propaganda) is just a Tea Party Mouthpiece and I feel that it has actually damaged Republican Party immensely because moderate sensible Republicans have been sidelined completely and their voice has been muffled totally. Icing on that stinking cake is people like Rush Limbaugh. I feel like puking, when Fox News says "Fair and Balanced" in their tag line.

[idiotic]

These guys are a bunch of loonies. No wonder they are losing the ground slowly with their ignorance and hatred. Fox news (propaganda) is just a Tea Party Mouthpiece and I feel that it has actually damaged Republican Party immensely because moderate sensible Republicans have been sidelined completely and their voice has been muffled totally. Icing on that stinking cake is people like Rush Limbaugh. I feel like puking, when Fox News says "Fair and Balanced" in their tag line.

Actually Fox news is a friend of S.744 as per tea party because Bill O Reilly supported or atleast did not overly attack it..

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...-news-on-board

[Ramsen]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/249866832...=2114913880001

Why can't they just have the face to say "you know what. we do not have any reason but just kill this bill. we like the current system"..

No need to worry about this house GOP will tell this

[idiotic]

No need to worry about this house GOP will tell this

...and put the blame on Obama for passing a "partisan, weak, hopelessly dysfunctional" bill in Senate which does not solve any of our curent real immigration problems of getting rid of some people under the "rule of law"

[indiani]

My comments are meant for people who believe that illegals should not be allowed to immigrate in this country. I don't believe that line. I think you are not taking an argument for what it is, "an argument/debate point". What you responded was with a personal attack, not a counter argument.

I am an asian and I am not going back since I am compassionate for these illegal folks as well.

Please respond only if you have a valid point. Personal attack has no value in a debate.

I have included the last line in my previous post anticipating some response like this.

I absolutely do not want to respond to you any further as I don't have to / don't want to.

[idiotic]

I have included the last line in my previous post anticipating some response like this.

I absolutely do not want to respond to you any further as I don't have to / don't want to.

I think this is what gcq meant.. Correct me if I am wrong..

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/...our-Papers.jpg

Peace..

More here.. funny and thoughtful.. http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/i...hor-Babies.htm

[indiani]

currently the USA is a democratic nation with its own constitution and laws.

The Executive branch (Obama and feds ) implement the laws.

whatever the history might be the biggest reason behind the CIR is "political calculation" more than compassion or anything else. here why going back in history might not make much sense ( especially beyond a century ) to make decisions about current laws:

Human migration have taken place as long as mankind existed, in fact if you understand terms like "bottleneck in human evolution" ( all humans currently living on this planet are very close knit relatives as compared to many other species ) etc. and something about anthropology etc. I can go on but I dont want to bore anyone and I am not interested trying to make any further points.