Discussion On The Politics of Immigration Reform (Comprehensive Or Otherwise)

[immitime]

Obama is sincere in getting CIR done and so are the democrats; its the republicans who are playing politics.
some who want to be national players like Rubio , and veteran national players like Mccain are OK with it but most of them especially in house of representative are going to vote NO.

here is the one of the scenarios where it can pass:

Boehner gets pressue from Rubio/ carl rove and other republican establishment and future presdidential aspirees that without CIR they will have zero chances of winning WH in 2016; then Boehner along with Judicial committee (not sure who could convince Goodlatte) will introduce a bill on the House floor which will pass with democratic majority and some republicans getting on board (hispanic causes and republicans from border states with huge hispanic polulations)

I wish If the same sincerity he shows to the Legal tax paying immigrants!!! He is making the Legal immigrants as political bargaining chip due to inaction from his side. He could have done an executive order to take out family members from EB count, or another order also for visa recapture. (like he done for Dreamers before the election just for Votes only)
So nobody is sincere.. Lip is saying one and the politics is saying another one and inbetween there is lobbyists and their interests. Never ever believe a politican anywhere in the world. Again the issue is THEY DO NOT WANT TO FIX IMMIGRATION. WHICHEVER PARTY THEY BELONG. They want this to be an issue forever! Democrats are main hindrance for any immigration, Republicans secondary to that only, at least they support Legal immigration. Except Guncle and his chelas!

[srimurthy]

I agree with what you said, in fact democrats are the one who held all legal immigration bills hostage for 1 years.

What i meant to say was that the democrats are in favor of CIR in the CURRENT form.

Could they just drop the citizenship issue and pass bill with just GC to illegals and within 10 years pass another bill granting citizenship?
Of course they can but politically it doesn't make sense to them.

Does not getting a GC mean they are anyway eligible to apply for Citizenship after 5 years as per the current law? So how come we need another deviation to grant the Citizenship faster?
Doesn't a path to GC automatically convert as a path to Citizenship for all these illegals? I fail to understand some of the reasonings.

[indiani]

I understand that without Democrats there would not be a CIR but if this bill fails, I would blame Democrats as much as I would blame Republicans. I agree with Republicans on this one. I don't think the Health Care System in its current avatar would be able to take the burden of giving Government health care benefits to millions of illegals who will be legalized, not especially once the Obama Care will be implemented despite its being called as "Universal Health Care".

Obamacare is a terrible idea resulting from great and noble intentions. I can tell you this with some authority, because being a physician, we have already started to bear the brunt of it, in terms of decreased reimbursements, punishing physicians and hospitals financially for all-cause re-admissions within 30 days (If your patient comes with pneumonia, you treat them in the hospital and discharge them. In next 10 days, he falls and fractures his leg and comes back for fracture repair. That is considered a "Re-admission within 30 days and a fault of the physician. Yes, it is that stupid) and what not. I can go on and on about it.

The Democratic notion that since they are paying taxes, they should be getting benefits, is absolutely ridiculous. I am a legal immigrant from last 8.5 years in USA, first on F1 and then on H1B, and have been paying Medicare taxes since last 8 years, and still not eligible for government health care benefits and I am sure, just like me, you all are. Providing a path to citizenship is controversial enough and now Democrats want health care benefits on that which Republicans won't accept. Republicans are stubborn idiots but Democrats are not behind in their stubbornness either.

Jonty,

you add few more years of bonded labor as a doctor in USA and you will end up like me, much more cynical and frankly fed up with the whole system.

Dems are like communist party in India, their rhetoric is "you rich folks need to help out working class folks" , but reality is "we are the WORKING class" and the so called working class are really WELFARE class (we as workers have to take care of their welfare) ,

i dont know how your schedule is right now but I work almost 30days + 8 nights, with the hope that I can live in this country someday without the fear of being deported just b'cos somehow if you can't put up with the abuse of your employer and want to leave the job and can't find another one right away you become illegal next day and have to be looking out for ICE to show up at your door step, (as you know it takes months to join another).

[indiani]

Does not getting a GC mean they are anyway eligible to apply for Citizenship after 5 years as per the current law? So how come we need another deviation to grant the Citizenship faster?
Doesn't a path to GC automatically convert as a path to Citizenship for all these illegals? I fail to understand some of the reasonings.

Dems want to make bill far more favorable to current illegals with the hope that CIR won't pass and hillary can use it as one of the campagn issues to become President in 2016.

But unfortunately there aren't many moderates left in the country anymore, both extremes.

I my previous post I meant hostage for 10 years

[qesehmk]

indiani - i think the 2016 dem candidate will approach this topic from position of strength whatever be the outcome of the CIR. If Dems didn't want this to pass then why would they bring it at all and that too 4 years prior to next election?

The fact is every president and his party want some key accomplishments when in power.
Kennedy - moon and cuban crisis
Johnson - Civil rights
Carter - Energy independence (but it failed clearly!)
Reagan - Fall of communism
Clinton - Healthcare (failed)
Bush Jr - Education (failed), CIR (failed), National Security and war (politically succeeded but otherwise failed), defense modernization (succeeded)

For Obama - healthcare is already a plus one, likely economic revival is going to be a long term achievement and he wants to add CIR to his legacy to top it off.

So overall Dems absolutely want this. They are only posturing on various issues to ensure that citizenship clause and "Comprehensiveness" of the reform is untouched. Everything else is negotiable. But not these two things.

Dems want to make bill far more favorable to current illegals with the hope that CIR won't pass and hillary can use it as one of the campagn issues to become President in 2016.

[srimurthy]

Jonty,

you add few more years of bonded labor as a doctor in USA and you will end up like me, much more cynical and frankly fed up with the whole system.

Dems are like communist party in India, their rhetoric is "you rich folks need to help out working class folks" , but reality is "we are the WORKING class" and the so called working class are really WELFARE class (we as workers have to take care of their welfare) ,

i dont know how your schedule is right now but I work almost 30days + 8 nights, with the hope that I can live in this country someday without the fear of being deported just b'cos somehow if you can't put up with the abuse of your employer and want to leave the job and can't find another one right away you become illegal next day and have to be looking out for ICE to show up at your door step, (as you know it takes months to join another).

I pity the doctors and the patients, because more than attending to the patients they are neck deep in the paper work to cover bases.

[indiani]

indiani - i think the 2016 dem candidate will approach this topic from position of strength whatever be the outcome of the CIR. If Dems didn't want this to pass then why would they bring it at all and that too 4 years prior to next election?

The fact is every president and his party want some key accomplishments when in power.
Kennedy - moon and cuban crisis
Johnson - Civil rights
Carter - Energy independence (but it failed clearly!)
Reagan - Fall of communism
Clinton - Healthcare (failed)
Bush Jr - Education (failed), CIR (failed), National Security and war (politically succeeded but otherwise failed), defense modernization (succeeded)

For Obama - healthcare is already a plus one, likely economic revival is going to be a long term achievement and he wants to add CIR to his legacy to top it off.

So overall Dems absolutely want this. They are only posturing on various issues to ensure that citizenship clause and "Comprehensiveness" of the reform is untouched. Everything else is negotiable. But not these two things.

Q,
you made great points but like many on this forum, lets say If i was in obama's shoes and wanted to show more leadership, i would have focussed on house side and told the house Dems to compromise as long as citizenship clause is there and not to fight for unnecessary obamacare issue or other issues for all practical purposes don't make much difference for current illegals and here is why:

I took care of several hundreds of pts who are illegal without SSN, they are got excellent care, paid none to me or the hospital and went home and they are always welcome back in the hospital and so the current system is not so bad for them to unnecessarily fight for it.

here is what most people try to counter the above point by saying that somehow illegals have to wait until their condition becomes serious to come to ER., thats not true as even with cold anyone can go to ER but legals/citizens with private insurance don't go to ER b'cos of high co-pays.

Illegals and medicaid pts in the current system can see any specialist and get any procedure done (other than plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes) anyday without paying a dime.

So don't you think its kind of silly to ruin the chances by fighting for obamacare for illegals

[rupen86]

Interesting analysis..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ration-reform/

[qesehmk]

So don't you think its kind of silly to ruin the chances by fighting for obamacare for illegals

It absolutely is silly. And that's why I am saying it is not really fighting ... it is only posturing.

p.s. There is a small angle from which it is not as much silly otherwise. And that is universal coverage. In theory the president does want to be remembered as the guy who brought universal or near universal coverage. The moment you concede and create an opening in that strategy .... your whole strategy of universal coverage can fall apart. So that is the angle that can make it not so silly. However IMHO this point is a good bargaining chip to be used to gain something larger just like they did with gays and lesbians topic.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Jonty,

you add few more years of bonded labor as a doctor in USA and you will end up like me, much more cynical and frankly fed up with the whole system.

Dems are like communist party in India, their rhetoric is "you rich folks need to help out working class folks" , but reality is "we are the WORKING class" and the so called working class are really WELFARE class (we as workers have to take care of their welfare) ,

i dont know how your schedule is right now but I work almost 30days + 8 nights, with the hope that I can live in this country someday without the fear of being deported just b'cos somehow if you can't put up with the abuse of your employer and want to leave the job and can't find another one right away you become illegal next day and have to be looking out for ICE to show up at your door step, (as you know it takes months to join another).

My schedule is not that bad but basically I am stuck in a place where there is no scope of doing any further research or publications or fellowship or advance your career. I want to do Gastroenterology Fellowship which is next to impossible to obtain without a green card. So basically, once I get a GC, I can move out of the place and then do something to boost my research and publish few papers and hopefully make it to the fellowship. But slowly, that desire is fading away for 2 reasons. a) I applied to fellowship several times already and every time, the reason for rejection from more than 90% of programs was that they don't sponsor visa and b) With passing time since my MD, I am growing old, getting far from my graduation year and with each passing yer, my profile gets weaker and weaker for fellowship without any research or publications.

But on the positive side, I am grateful to God, that there are many others who are in even worse position compared to me and still living positively. They give me hope. Hopefully, CIR will pass this year.

[indiani]

My schedule is not that bad but basically I am stuck in a place where there is no scope of doing any further research or publications or fellowship or advance your career. I want to do Gastroenterology Fellowship which is next to impossible to obtain without a green card. So basically, once I get a GC, I can move out of the place and then do something to boost my research and publish few papers and hopefully make it to the fellowship. But slowly, that desire is fading away for 2 reasons. a) I applied to fellowship several times already and every time, the reason for rejection from more than 90% of programs was that they don't sponsor visa and b) With passing time since my MD, I am growing old, getting far from my graduation year and with each passing yer, my profile gets weaker and weaker for fellowship without any research or publications.

But on the positive side, I am grateful to God, that there are many others who are in even worse position compared to me and still living positively. They give me hope. Hopefully, CIR will pass this year.

almost all indian doctors on h-1 in this country more or less are in the same situation with exception of few, i know close friend of mine did GI fellowship on h-1 in SUNY where he did his residency.

for your second point, i am one of the few who don't believe in any invisible man in the sky (and i respect everyone who are believers), I think all the years of education should give us needed skills to cope with unusual circumstances we face.

I closely follow Q's forum (by far the best of all forums i have been to) to get really good feel of potential changes in PD movements and make plans in career and life .also it gives me a sense of support from so many fellows in the same boat and some who got GC but still contribute.

[Jonty Rhodes]

I pity the doctors and the patients, because more than attending to the patients they are neck deep in the paper work to cover bases.

And with Obamacare, it is getting worse. Ask any physician for that matter and they will tell you how burdensome the paperwork has become. In fact, now I spend around 60-70% of time for paperwork (which includes writing and dictating notes, filling forms and calling insurance companies for petty reasons) and only 30-40% of time with patients, and it will get worse with new requirements. Now, we have documentation specialists who are rounding in the hospital every day. They review each and every patient chart and physician documentation. Then we inevitable get a call from them every day to document few more things so the hospital can get paid by Medicare/Medicaid since Medicare and Medicaid can deny reimbursement for unbelievably silly reasons. We call them Documentation Nazis

[Jonty Rhodes]

almost all indian doctors on h-1 in this country more or less are in the same situation with exception of few, i know close friend of mine did GI fellowship on h-1 in SUNY where he did his residency.

for your second point, i am one of the few who don't believe in any invisible man in the sky (and i respect everyone who are believers), I think all the years of education should give us needed skills to cope with unusual circumstances we face.

I closely follow Q's forum (by far the best of all forums i have been to) to get really good feel of potential changes in PD movements and make plans in career and life .also it gives me a sense of support from so many fellows in the same boat and some who got GC but still contribute.

That's true. Almost, every Indian Doctor who is on H1 in US faces more or less a similar situation.

I know another one who did GI Fellowship like that on H1 in LSU, Shreveport but he did his residency there as well. But those kind of cases are not very common.

I agree that by far, this is the best forum and I keep a close eye on this one for predictions and calculations.

[rupen86]

It absolutely is silly. And that's why I am saying it is not really fighting ... it is only posturing.

p.s. There is a small angle from which it is not as much silly otherwise. And that is universal coverage. In theory the president does want to be remembered as the guy who brought universal or near universal coverage. The moment you concede and create an opening in that strategy .... your whole strategy of universal coverage can fall apart. So that is the angle that can make it not so silly. However IMHO this point is a good bargaining chip to be used to gain something larger just like they did with gays and lesbians topic.

Labrador quits gang if 8. This is huge blow to house gang of 8 which is no longer gang of 8. Without him, I do not think they would be able to produce a bill.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/...6921370503800/

[rupen86]

Immigration reform in trouble..

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...be-in-trouble/

[gs1968]

I know I brought up Sen.Rubio's conflicting positions yesterday but I am still confused as to what he is trying to do.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/rubio-...stom_click=rss

[gcq]

Labrador quits gang if 8. This is huge blow to house gang of 8 which is no longer gang of 8. Without him, I do not think they would be able to produce a bill.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/...6921370503800/

Depends. If house fails to come up with a bill, it may turn out to be good for CIR. In that case they will have to move forward with Senate bill at some point.

[gs1968]

Depends. If house fails to come up with a bill, it may turn out to be good for CIR. In that case they will have to move forward with Senate bill at some point.

That would be the ideal scenario but I feel it is very unlikely.I felt that the DREAM beneficiaries would at least be one area of agreement between the two chambers but the House just passed an amendment to the Homeland security appropriations bill (HR 2217) depriving the DHS of funds to implement the Executive Order of President Obama for DACA. This will likely not be in the final version if the Senate also passes it but the vote count showed an overwhelming majority of Republicans voting no.I find this very hard to believe in the current environment but if an amendment like this gets passed so convincingly then there is a huge challenge for more controversial items like guest workers/citizenship pathway etc.

http://americasvoiceonline.org/blog/...n-house-floor/

PS-The amendment was proposed by Rep.Steve King

[gs1968]

Labrador quits gang if 8. This is huge blow to house gang of 8 which is no longer gang of 8. Without him, I do not think they would be able to produce a bill.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/...6921370503800/

This from Rep.Gutierrez after Labrador's departure

"I guess they will stop calling us the gang of eight, now. I am hoping they start calling us the Magnificent Seven."

http://gutierrez.house.gov/press-rel...-rep-labradors

[indiani]

Depends. If house fails to come up with a bill, it may turn out to be good for CIR. In that case they will have to move forward with Senate bill at some point.

The house Doesn't have to take the senate bill, it may but its not guaranteed

[gs1968]

This from ThinkProgress

"One indication of where the House stands on immigration is House Majority Leader Eric Cantor’s (R-VA) vote today. Cantor voted yes on King’s amendment, even though he announced support for the DREAM Act (in theory) in February.

Mr.Boehner is doing the same Kabuki dance like Mr.Rubio in the Senate

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...medium=twitter

[gs1968]

I just got this on twitter

1st Senate floor debate on the #immigration bill will be Fri. 1st vote on procedural motion, Tues, 2:15-2nd vote @ 4pm Tues

[srimurthy]

Q,
you made great points but like many on this forum, lets say If i was in obama's shoes and wanted to show more leadership, i would have focussed on house side and told the house Dems to compromise as long as citizenship clause is there and not to fight for unnecessary obamacare issue or other issues for all practical purposes don't make much difference for current illegals and here is why:

I took care of several hundreds of pts who are illegal without SSN, they are got excellent care, paid none to me or the hospital and went home and they are always welcome back in the hospital and so the current system is not so bad for them to unnecessarily fight for it.

here is what most people try to counter the above point by saying that somehow illegals have to wait until their condition becomes serious to come to ER., thats not true as even with cold anyone can go to ER but legals/citizens with private insurance don't go to ER b'cos of high co-pays.

Illegals and medicaid pts in the current system can see any specialist and get any procedure done (other than plastic surgery for cosmetic purposes) anyday without paying a dime.

So don't you think its kind of silly to ruin the chances by fighting for obamacare for illegals

hmm... is there a way I can be legal and get same medical benefits are they all are gettings? :-) Wanted to cut down on the health insurence costs.

[gs1968]

Senator Reid just filed cloture on the motion to proceed on the immigration bill -- on the floor next week

[indiani]

hmm... is there a way I can be legal and get same medical benefits are they all are gettings? :-) Wanted to cut down on the health insurence costs.

you are entitled to same ER access like all illegals do. The only difference, if you give your SSN or your name in ER and you don't pay bills it can ruin your credit history.

As illegals don't have either SSN and don't care about credit history, they can freely access without having to pay bills,
in fact all women (who are here illegally) who are pregnant have 100% costs covered by state of FL, no need to have private insurance or worry about co-pays.