Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[kkruna]

Yes this was brought up in one of the Ron's forum too. But you can't appeal to logical faculties of people who are happy for the benefit they have now and want to preserve it. The typical response in such cases is that they would denounce the whole class of people who are pressing for equity. A good example of Consistency Theory in Psychology.

[vrs7734]

Yes this was brought up in one of the Ron's forum too. But you can't appeal to logical faculties of people who are happy for the benefit they have now and want to preserve it. The typical response in such cases is that they would denounce the whole class of people who are pressing for equity. A good example of Consistency Theory in Psychology.

Exactly for the same reason, I have stopped writing anything on Ron's forum. That forum is now filled with narcissists, whiners and Indian haters. People, who tried to fight back HR3012 and could not even gather 50 people on their forum (sorry organization) are acting like messiah of ROW. Funny thing is they still are using Ron's forum as nobody cares about their own. Typical armchair quarterbacks

[Ramsen]

In Ron's Forum only 5 people are more active and another 5 may be active little bit. Yes Row does not have numbers now. Ron himself is supporting country quota removal but he prefers to do with recapture so that impact will be minimal for Row. So Row opposition does not make or break Hr 3012 as they have a few in number. Even in future years they cannot organise 50 people. But I suspect Senators themselves are hesitant on Hr 3012 or country quota removal. If that is the case then country quota removal will always distance dream. We will get indication by the end of the year. Or some invisible forces are behind the stalling of the bill. There are many other organizations may be lobbying against the bill(of course nothing was shown in the paper). Infact healthcare lobby(manily nurses) is strong always. Hr 3012 is against their interests. Of course AILA and some companies were not that much active after Grassley amendment.

Exactly for the same reason, I have stopped writing anything on Ron's forum. That forum is now filled with narcissists, whiners and Indian haters. People, who tried to fight back HR3012 and could not even gather 50 people on their forum (sorry organization) are acting like messiah of ROW. Funny thing is they still are using Ron's forum as nobody cares about their own. Typical armchair quarterbacks

[rupen86]

In Ron's Forum only 5 people are more active and another 5 may be active little bit. Yes Row does not have numbers now. Ron himself is supporting country quota removal but he prefers to do with recapture so that impact will be minimal for Row. So Row opposition does not make or break Hr 3012 as they have a few in number. Even in future years they cannot organise 50 people. But I suspect Senators themselves are hesitant on Hr 3012 or country quota removal. If that is the case then country quota removal will always distance dream. We will get indication by the end of the year. Or some invisible forces are behind the stalling of the bill. There are many other organizations may be lobbying against the bill(of course nothing was shown in the paper). Infact healthcare lobby(manily nurses) is strong always. Hr 3012 is against their interests. Of course AILA and some companies were not that much active after Grassley amendment.

I used to be active on Ron's forum but later gave up because that got crowded with ROWers whose only goal in life was opposing HR 3012. And I do not blame them because it is like snatching benefit from them which they already have however unfair it might be. We would do same if we were in that situation. Now, coming to HR 3012, I do not think senators in principle would be opposed to country quota removal. If that was the case, we would not have seen any progress on the bill after it reached senate. Till Grassley removed hold from the bill, we were periodically seeing some news on this. I think something happened after he removed the hold. There might be senators or other lobbyists who are against Grassley's amendments and because the positions is take that it would be passed with unanimous consent, it may not be moving forward. This is my guess from the events that have happened.

[nilebib]

Recently, I got same feeling at Ron site.. I will never return to that site..
You guys are very balanced here and do very good mathematical prediction on movements.

[abcx13]

Not directly related to the topic at hand, but the Wadhwa report released by the Kaufmann foundation (summarized in this Murthy memo here: http://www.murthy.com/2012/10/23/kau...among-indians/) has some interesting points.



I don't endorse anyone engaging in the time consuming India vs. ROW debates, but to those of you who do, this may help combat the "Indians are all frauds" argument. To be clear, the numbers above probably mirror the % of EB visas given to each of these countries, so it would not support an "Indians are the best" argument either. It would however support an argument that, as a group, Indians pull their weight in terms of job creation, so a switch to a FIFO distribution of visa numbers and the resulting increase in Indians getting GCs at the expense of ROWers will not result in a change in numbers of jobs created in the US economy.

You'd somehow have to segment founders a % of total immigrants by year. My contention is that that percentage has declined over time for Indians. Most Indians smart enough to set up companies these days GO BACK because they can't be bothered to wait here for 5 years before getting a GC. Basically if you are an Indian immigrant today, you can't set up a company! You have to wait 5+ years for a GC. So I'm pretty sure that Wadhwa's immigrant founders migrated when times were better and waits were shorter...

[rupen86]

good article on how Obama and Romney both are either ignorant or lying about the EB immigration.

http://discuss.ilw.com/content.php?7...y-Mike-Hammond

[abcx13]

good article on how Obama and Romney both are either ignorant or lying about the EB immigration.

http://discuss.ilw.com/content.php?7...y-Mike-Hammond

Raises some good and obvious points. I'm sure that the fine folk here could design a better policy than any of the two idiots running for President. (There I said it, I do think both of them are idiots.)

[pdfeb09]

My contention is that that percentage has declined over time for Indians. Most Indians smart enough to set up companies these days GO BACK because they can't be bothered to wait here for 5 years before getting a GC.

Not necessarily .. Even if someone is smart enough to set up a company, he/she may need the experience to pull it off, not to mention the funding. If 5 years is the timeline for a GC, it is a good enough time to get the know-how and find the avenues for funding your own enterprise.

Moreover, most people realize that they can set up their own shop AFTER working for some organization. Few are those that go on their own right out of the college.

[abcx13]

Not necessarily .. Even if someone is smart enough to set up a company, he/she may need the experience to pull it off, not to mention the funding. If 5 years is the timeline for a GC, it is a good enough time to get the know-how and find the avenues for funding your own enterprise.

Moreover, most people realize that they can set up their own shop AFTER working for some organization. Few are those that go on their own right out of the college.

My point is that if you have a great idea today, you are not going to wait five years to execute on it. A lot of people talk about getting experience, skills, blah, blah, blah by working at some established company for X number of years. I think real entrepreneurs just go out and start their company instead. In other words, talkers talk and doers do. The really successful entreprenuers just go and start companies and take their lumps as they come, while the talkers keep talking about how they'll have the experience, skills, network, funding, etc. someday to maybe start a company. That day usually never comes...I know too many people like that (I'm probably like that too though I like to think things might have been different if I had a GC when I was in college - though that's a lame excuse).

Oh, and the really smart guys don't let funding get in the way. They beg, borrow and steal to make it happen. There's a great story about how the airbnb founders sold cereal to raise money...but you can't really do that on a H1 or a F1. So good luck. You can't even quit your job...

[bvsamrat]

Yes. If one can wait for 5-10 years for a GC, we know what they in for! Career or other things?. 10 years is a long time to loose a career of one's dreams.

Not necessarily .. Even if someone is smart enough to set up a company, he/she may need the experience to pull it off, not to mention the funding. If 5 years is the timeline for a GC, it is a good enough time to get the know-how and find the avenues for funding your own enterprise.

Moreover, most people realize that they can set up their own shop AFTER working for some organization. Few are those that go on their own right out of the college.

[pdfeb09]

My point is that if you have a great idea today, you are not going to wait five years to execute on it.

And my point was, many people get the idea that they can turn into a successful business after working for a while and not out of college directly. There are not many Zuckerbergs or Bill Gates .. there are some and they probably don't even come here ...

[abcx13]

And my point was, many people get the idea that they can turn into a successful business after working for a while and not out of college directly. There are not many Zuckerbergs or Bill Gates .. there are some and they probably don't even come here ...

I just think what you are proposing is preposterous. If you wait 5-7 years for a GC to start a business (usually technology), your idea is probably outdated and irrelevant by then if someone else hasn't already done it. Why is it so hard to recognize that the lack of a GC is a huge impediment to starting a business?

[pdfeb09]

You'd somehow have to segment founders a % of total immigrants by year. My contention is that that percentage has declined over time for Indians. Most Indians smart enough to set up companies these days GO BACK because they can't be bothered to wait here for 5 years before getting a GC. Basically if you are an Indian immigrant today, you can't set up a company! You have to wait 5+ years for a GC. So I'm pretty sure that Wadhwa's immigrant founders migrated when times were better and waits were shorter...

Not necessarily .. Even if someone is smart enough to set up a company, he/she may need the experience to pull it off, not to mention the funding. If 5 years is the timeline for a GC, it is a good enough time to get the know-how and find the avenues for funding your own enterprise.

Moreover, most people realize that they can set up their own shop AFTER working for some organization. Few are those that go on their own right out of the college.

I just think what you are proposing is preposterous. If you wait 5-7 years for a GC to start a business (usually technology), your idea is probably outdated and irrelevant by then if someone else hasn't already done it. Why is it so hard to recognize that the lack of a GC is a huge impediment to starting a business?

Let's back up a little bit. You said that you think the proportion of people that can be successful business people has gone down because of the time it takes to get the GC.

All I was saying was, there are many people who can start and sustain a successful business, but many times it takes a few years for them to form and run with the idea. I was saying the proportion of people who can successfully establish and run a business has NOT gone down.

If you have an idea today and do not want to wait .. fine .. NOT having an idea for business right out of the school does NOT mean you are dumb .. !! as you tried to imply ...

BTW .. NO one denies that not having a GC is a huge impediment in starting a business if you have the idea !

my last on this.

[abcx13]

But Zuck and Gates (not a fan of them, and using them just for the debate) are the *outliers* and the human civilization has been shouldered 100% by the outliers.

I do agree to abcx - if you *have it*, you won't wait to get irrelevant experience and become a corporate slave. I am not sure if giving fast GCs is the answer, but the fact is that the current wait times are not making it easy. Many people find the infrastructure and endless possibilities when they come to the US. If they don't have immigration on their side, how are they going to turn those possibilities into reality?

P.S. About the abcx's original claim, I can't speak for the entrepreneurs, but I can speak for the really smart kids from India who used to come in hordes to the US schools in the 90s and early 00s. They are gone. They are not coming here any longer. The US is just not getting the cream at the top like it used to.

I'm not a fan of Zuck either but I think more highly of Gates (for better or worse, with his Gates Foundation work, he has cleansed his name, at least with me)! Nevertheless there are other more respectable/less controversial examples like Sergey Brin.

I think really smart kids from India still come here and the US still gets the cream compared to other countries but sadly a lot of these kids end up going back because of all the immigration hassles. I personally know of many who have already done so or refuse to get on the GC treadmill because they will go back after a couple of years anyway given the long wait. But I agree with you that most of the students who come these days seem to go the Tri-valley type diploma mills (just go hang out on trackitt for a while). In the long run this will probably reduce the high respect that Indians currently enjoy due to the hard work of all the IIT/IIM/AIIMS immigrants in the past.

[rupen86]

There are other aspects of EB immigration other than the EB2-IC and EB3-I green card categories. H1B, L1, PERM filing, labor certification to name a few.

An argument could be made that massive backlogs exist BECAUSE the system is efficient. If PERM/labor was taking 3 to 5 years for everyone, EB1 and EB2-WW would never have a high usage, and EB2-I and even EB3-I would receive substantially more portion of the visas.

Obama could use his executive power to alleviate the backlog though. I am not sure what's the opinion of the people here - can he do it to stop counting dependents?

from the above list of H1B, L1, PERM filing, labor certification, which process is faster now under Obama compared to earlier ?

[bvsamrat]

Very true

In olden times, toppers from most of the colleges and IITs end up in top US universities and hence the name and fame.

I also know quite a few IITians who recently got into the best universities, but went back immediately after seing the ground reality. Do not blame them. That's why I say STEM is the neeed and that to0 to the top US colleges only with good GPAs, if US needs to attract good brain power and would be enterprenuers.

I'm not a fan of Zuck either but I think more highly of Gates (for better or worse, with his Gates Foundation work, he has cleansed his name, at least with me)! Nevertheless there are other more respectable/less controversial examples like Sergey Brin.

I think really smart kids from India still come here and the US still gets the cream compared to other countries but sadly a lot of these kids end up going back because of all the immigration hassles. I personally know of many who have already done so or refuse to get on the GC treadmill because they will go back after a couple of years anyway given the long wait. But I agree with you that most of the students who come these days seem to go the Tri-valley type diploma mills (just go hang out on trackitt for a while). In the long run this will probably reduce the high respect that Indians currently enjoy due to the hard work of all the IIT/IIM/AIIMS immigrants in the past.

[rupen86]

H1B is more streamlined with a clear employee-employer relationship memo, and the USCIS/DOS seem to be weeding out the bad apples from the barrel. Also, the labor certifications are more scrutinized in the past. Finally, we all know the record speed at which the USCIS processed applications earlier this year that caused a retrogression so early.

I don't know if Obama is responsible for everything and not necessarily everything may be faster, but the USCIS did demonstrate early in the year that if it wanted, it could process thousands of applications in a relatively short time. Heck, most of the 485 filers this year received EAD/AP in LESS than 2 months. Less than 2m months I say, and in many cases, less than 45 days (it took me slightly over a month personally). So obviously, things have improved greatly than in the past, and this year's supposed *debacle* was far better managed than the 2007 chaos.

If processing 485 faster amounts to reducing backlog, I agree.

[abcx13]

Is the backlog the problem of the White House? The president cannot just take an administrative order out of his hat and grant us more numbers. The Congress has to pass a law that he can only sign. The president can only *execute*...he cannot *enact*. Civics 101.

Also, supply-chain logistics clearly tell us that if the inventory is being processed very efficiently (fast processing of labor applications), and if the number of takers is limited (fixed number of visas), then the backlog will increase. In fact, to achieve backlog reduction, the USCIS had to be very inefficient. If they were taking 5 years to process an average labor certification versus 3 months, then you might see the EB2-I dates even current today.

Obama's claim is absolutely true and everyone on this board has witnessed the record speed at which their applications were processed. The backlog has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EFFICIENCY. It is purely a function of the supply of visas. It is a problem of the legislation, not of execution.

Don't disagree with anything you say except that I think Obama might be taking credit for something he personally had no hand in!

I believe not counting dependents can be done with an admin order according to Cyrus Mehta.

[rupen86]

Is the backlog the problem of the White House? The president cannot just take an administrative order out of his hat and grant us more numbers. The Congress has to pass a law that he can only sign. The president can only *execute*...he cannot *enact*. Civics 101.

Also, supply-chain logistics clearly tell us that if the inventory is being processed very efficiently (fast processing of labor applications), and if the number of takers is limited (fixed number of visas), then the backlog will increase. In fact, to achieve backlog reduction, the USCIS had to be very inefficient. If they were taking 5 years to process an average labor certification versus 3 months, then you might see the EB2-I dates even current today.

Obama's claim is absolutely true and everyone on this board has witnessed the record speed at which their applications were processed. The backlog has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EFFICIENCY. It is purely a function of the supply of visas. It is a problem of the legislation, not of execution.

To the point 1: if that was the case, Obama would not have claimed that he did something to reduce backlog. Can he make executive order? I am not sure on what he can and what he can. But he very well demonstrated that by doing executive order on illegals. And he can certainly do for H4s. He promised comprehensive immigration bill in the first year when both senate and house had democrat majority. He could have very well pushed other legal immigration bills which would have got bipartisan support.[/I]

Point 2: This is unique and weird solution to the problem. But is has not been implemented that way. So, no point in talking about something which is not done and will not be done. We are talking about backlog here, not efficiency.[/I]

Point 3: May be everyone on this board have witnessed their 485 getting processed faster. But I am sure there will be hardly be people here who will agree that backlog is reduced. Because people are interested in how fast green card backlog is reduced. Not how fast their 485 is processed.

[rupen86]

Your original point was: "THE PRESIDENT IS LYING". I proved to you he can certainly take credit for faster processing if it happened under his rule. You can claim "but, but but...he didn't do anything", which could be true, or it could be not. There is no way to know.

You just do not seem to understand that the backlog has NOTHING to do with the president. And, EB1, and EB2-WW are clear winners of the increased efficiency as they do walk away with EADs in 1 month and GC in 6 months after their PERM is approved. So NOT EVERYONE will reach your conclusion. The backlog is only a problem of IC. Everyone else has a different tale to tell.

OF COURSE the backlog is more BECAUSE the system is efficient. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

My last post here. I am drawn into irrelevant side discussion again and again.

I said he is either ignorant or lying that his administration has reduced the backlog. You are trying to prove that he did so by faster processing of 485. Now, you can believe that faster processing of 485 reduces backlog, I do not. Now, your another point is that enhanced efficiency of PERM and I140 is increasing backlog for I/C. Has this efficiency increased under Obama? If yes, he can take credit that he reduced backlog for ROW. Not everyone will agree that backlog problem is there because only people who are affected will tell that. I believe on this forum most of the people are I/C. That's why I believe they will agree that backlog problem is not reduced. Just because you believe that others opinion is not relevant to the point you are talking does not make that irrelevant. The other side can also think same for you.

[rupen86]

It may be doable, but in my opinion, it's too risky and it doesn't help their election prospects in any way. I think a better solution is to invent the temporary W visa (that Lofgren had in one of the competing proposals during the early days of HR 3012) and push all dependents under FB altogether. It will still require an action from the Congress.

On the other hand, giving EADs to H4 dependents *should be* more doable. I am no law expert, but if DREAM kids can have EADs, certainly H4 depends too, and that could be a focus of immigration groups should HR 3012 fail. Contact the president directly and try to influence him - of course if it's doable via an executive order.

Moving dependents to FB is more difficult than 3012. Democrats care more about FB than EB. When moving dependent from EB to FB, that would mean eating FB quota which democrats are never going to agree to.

I agree with election politics reason about EAD for H4.

[qesehmk]

I see some people have visceral hatred of Obama. While anything and everything can be discussed on this forum - may i suggest that we take "I hate [Obama, Bush, Cheney, Romney, *]" kind of discussion to a thread by such name PLEASE.

Don't mean to offend anybody. Just saying that please open a thread for that kind of discussion if there interest in politics since most people on this thread are interested in understanding what's happening latest on various bills.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Rupen,

The basic issue is that your definition of backlog (which matches the definition of all of us on this forum) is different from the President's, the DoS or the USCIS definition. Their definition of backlog is, applications waiting to be processed BY THEM. Yours is applications awaiting green cards. The latter doesn't concern them. They're not in the business of providing green cards, they're in the business of processing applications for green cards. Your application and mine, was processed, we were provided our combo card and our names removed from the backlog. In this respect, the President was neither lying, nor ignorant. His concern is just different from ours. If you want to attack his focus on healthcare reform instead of comprehensive immigration reform in 2009, that's a different point that probably deserves to be in another thread, as I stated a week ago and Q has repeated today.

[bvsamrat]

Earlier I read that few important immigration bills were passsed during lame duck session. will there be any such luck for HR-3012?. Is it still under consideration?

Rupen,

The basic issue is that your definition of backlog (which matches the definition of all of us on this forum) is different from the President's, the DoS or the USCIS definition. Their definition of backlog is, applications waiting to be processed BY THEM. Yours is applications awaiting green cards. The latter doesn't concern them. They're not in the business of providing green cards, they're in the business of processing applications for green cards. Your application and mine, was processed, we were provided our combo card and our names removed from the backlog. In this respect, the President was neither lying, nor ignorant. His concern is just different from ours. If you want to attack his focus on healthcare reform instead of comprehensive immigration reform in 2009, that's a different point that probably deserves to be in another thread, as I stated a week ago and Q has repeated today.