Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[chengisk]

I disagree with that. STEM bill is only going to benefit those who take advance degree in STEM fields and in one of the universities selected. I believe it would be applied to the new students and petitioning employer has to petition under STEM quota. It does not reduce current EB2 and EB3 backlog. Even if we say that it would apply to some of the people who are now in EB2 and EB3 category and have graduated from one of the universities selected from STEM, then they would migrate to that category but that number would be pretty small.

I think what Vishnu is suggesting is that it will remove 55000 applicants from the EB2/3 queue and take them to a different queue with visa numbers provided by the DV visa numbers. Obviously I believe they will carry their PD as well. Why do you think the number would be small? I thought a large number of those in the EB3 queue worked on their masters. Also another question, how do you know the it has to be a petition from the employer?

[abcx13]

I think what Vishnu is suggesting is that it will remove 55000 applicants from the EB2/3 queue and take them to a different queue with visa numbers provided by the DV visa numbers. Obviously I believe they will carry their PD as well.

Yeah - but only if it also applies to old students. If so, such a move would benefit me hugely since I will qualify. And I support the safeguards to avoid diploma mills. In fact, these should be enforced on the H1B and GCs as well. Or they should create a queue with the top 200-300 unis and then put the crappy for-profit ones in a different queue.

Even if this is just wishful thinking, the silver lining I guess is that there is still talk.

[rupen86]

Let's talk about Eb3 for example which is stuck at 2002. Now, if there are people in Eb3 who qualify for this, only they would move to the new category. So, first assumption is that it applies to existing people and not just new people, second assumption is that there are such people in EB3 who qualify for this and third assumption is that they would move to this category. I have doubts on all these assumptions. Even if first two assumptions are true, there is little incentive for them to move to STEM category because of requirement that they would have to work for five years for the petitioning employer. They are better off using EAD. Same applies to EB2

[abcx13]

Let's talk about Eb3 for example which is stuck at 2002. Now, if there are people in Eb3 who qualify for this, only they would move to the new category. So, first assumption is that it applies to existing people and not just new people, second assumption is that there are such people in EB3 who qualify for this and third assumption is that they would move to this category. I have doubts on all these assumptions. Even if first two assumptions are true, there is little incentive for them to move to STEM category because of requirement that they would have to work for five years for the petitioning employer. They are better off using EAD. Same applies to EB2

If those people in EB3 qualified for this, won't they have ported to EB2 by now? And remember the 5 yr experience/education eval in random field does not apply. You actually need a STEM MS.

I would happily move to this from EB2 - I like my employer and don't mind working for them for five years. And actually, it says that they must work with the same emp for five years OR in a STEM occupation.

[vishnu]

Rupen - its 5 years for petitioning employer or in STEM field... I work in investment banking and am not entitled to STEM. But most of the Indian backlog is medicine, core engineering and software programming - all of which are entitled to STEM visas (provided they've received the appropriate masters education). Now even if 25% have got a US Masters (those in EB2 backlog), then they will apply under this new category, which will go a long way to helping reduce Eb2 backlogs and eventually EB2. Also, what is the provision for ununsed visas under the 55k? Spill over to EB1-EB3?? Anyway, I think no point debating this too much as it hasnt even passed one section of congress... Remember HR 3012 passed with overwhelming majority in 2011 and still dangling in senate...

Rupen - your views def instigate good debate...We should discuss further after there have been movement on this bill.

[justvisiting]

HR 3012 does *NOT* reduce backlog either.

HR 3012 simply makes the playing field more fair. In my eyes, the STEM bill does exactly the same.

Because HR 3012 bill has already made much progress, it is better to support it now. However, I will be more enthused about a STEM bill that generates similar headwinds. In my view, STEM bill will be easier to pass than HR 3012 because there will be no opposition from ROW.

The devil will be in the details. There are two bills in the Senate already that add 55K to EB-2, and then give preference to STEM graduates. One of the bills actually said per country caps would not apply to the 55K. By adding them to EB-2, it creates the possiblity of spillover to EB-3.

[bvsamrat]

I always prefer STEM as it is not country dependent, gives prefernce to local advanced degrees in specific field(that's why they get grants) and will promote growth. It will be a win win situation , rather than a bio scientist working on a testing tools in IT(I do not have any complaints for those, but when some one is working in his field of study, he should be given preferece. that's all)

HR 3012 does *NOT* reduce backlog either.

HR 3012 simply makes the playing field more fair. In my eyes, the STEM bill does exactly the same.

Because HR 3012 bill has already made much progress, it is better to support it now. However, I will be more enthused about a STEM bill that generates similar headwinds. In my view, STEM bill will be easier to pass than HR 3012 because there will be no opposition from ROW.

[gs1968]

To sportsfan

There are no other outlets except Computerworld reporting this piece of information and Congressman Smith has announced this Bill many times without actually introducing it.The seeds for this legislation were sown last Fall during Committee Hearings and he was supposed to team up with Mr.Griffin of Arkansas to introduce this last December.Talk came up again in June 2012 just before Congress returned after July 4 that he would introduce it in July according to the widely circulated letter from Russell Harrison of IEEE-USA. It is unclear why he waited for so long till the serious legislative window is almost over before introducing it.It does coincide somehow with the letter circulated by University Heads. It also requires 2/3 majority if it has to be passed under suspension of rules and I am not sure if there is significant Democratic support for abolition of the Diversity visa. Rep.Lofgren introduced a STEM Bill last year HR 2161 which was a more comprehensive Bill than a similar Bill introduced by Rep.Labrador which only concentrated on high skill immigration but failed to win any Democratic co-sponsorship.

The Senate is a different story altogether. The DV visas were known as Schumer visas and he may object to bringing up this Bill altogether if abolition were an option unless he gets significant concessions from the Republicans in return. In contrast to HR 3012 where a formal hold was placed to slow it down-the Democrats can achieve the same results through inaction. Interestingly Senator Cornyn's STAR Act with provisions broadly similar to Rep.Smith's Bill has found no co-sponsors so far from either party. The best thing that can come out of all this is that the ideas have been planted fro increasing high skill immigration and it may all be a matter of time and timing before there is success.


The way things are shaping up Congress may be required to work much harder in the lame Duck session than at any other point during its term!! Tax-cut extensions,fiscal cliff etc etc already on its plate and a bunch of immigration legislation thrown in.

I still cannot understand how addition of 55000 visas a year in a country of 315 million people is so difficult. Why should it require abolition of one category of visas to make room for others.Human capital is precious and to assume that the graduates of American Universities are somehow superior to people like in the story below who have worked to realize their dream is ridiculous

http://www.charleston.af.mil/news/st...p?id=123315146

I was described as negative a few pages ago but I hope negativity is not confused with objectivity. As sportsfan describes-the headwinds are strong and status quo is a very powerful force!!

[rupen86]

If those people in EB3 qualified for this, won't they have ported to EB2 by now? And remember the 5 yr experience/education eval in random field does not apply. You actually need a STEM MS.

I would happily move to this from EB2 - I like my employer and don't mind working for them for five years. And actually, it says that they must work with the same emp for five years OR in a STEM occupation.

Would Eb3 people have not ported to Eb2, not really. I know many people who are in eb3 and have not ported to eb2 since it is the job that should require eb2 criteria. So, if there existing job does not require eb2 criteria, they can not port to eb2 unless they change the job. Changing job which would sponsor eb2 is not that easy in this political and economic environment.

[rupen86]

To sportsfan

There are no other outlets except Computerworld reporting this piece of information and Congressman Smith has announced this Bill many times without actually introducing it.The seeds for this legislation were sown last Fall during Committee Hearings and he was supposed to team up with Mr.Griffin of Arkansas to introduce this last December.Talk came up again in June 2012 just before Congress returned after July 4 that he would introduce it in July according to the widely circulated letter from Russell Harrison of IEEE-USA. It is unclear why he waited for so long till the serious legislative window is almost over before introducing it.It does coincide somehow with the letter circulated by University Heads. It also requires 2/3 majority if it has to be passed under suspension of rules and I am not sure if there is significant Democratic support for abolition of the Diversity visa. Rep.Lofgren introduced a STEM Bill last year HR 2161 which was a more comprehensive Bill than a similar Bill introduced by Rep.Labrador which only concentrated on high skill immigration but failed to win any Democratic co-sponsorship.

The Senate is a different story altogether. The DV visas were known as Schumer visas and he may object to bringing up this Bill altogether if abolition were an option unless he gets significant concessions from the Republicans in return. In contrast to HR 3012 where a formal hold was placed to slow it down-the Democrats can achieve the same results through inaction. Interestingly Senator Cornyn's STAR Act with provisions broadly similar to Rep.Smith's Bill has found no co-sponsors so far from either party. The best thing that can come out of all this is that the ideas have been planted fro increasing high skill immigration and it may all be a matter of time and timing before there is success.


The way things are shaping up Congress may be required to work much harder in the lame Duck session than at any other point during its term!! Tax-cut extensions,fiscal cliff etc etc already on its plate and a bunch of immigration legislation thrown in.

I still cannot understand how addition of 55000 visas a year in a country of 315 million people is so difficult. Why should it require abolition of one category of visas to make room for others.Human capital is precious and to assume that the graduates of American Universities are somehow superior to people like in the story below who have worked to realize their dream is ridiculous

http://www.charleston.af.mil/news/st...p?id=123315146

I was described as negative a few pages ago but I hope negativity is not confused with objectivity. As sportsfan describes-the headwinds are strong and status quo is a very powerful force!!

In the employment world, idea of diversity is weird. One would expect that one would get green card based on the qualification rather than their country of origin. That is the idea behind 3012 and STEM. Why it is difficult to add 55000 more rather than abolishing the category? Because it is politics. They would like to tell that they are not adding more green cards in this economy where unemployment rate is more than 8%. But it is ok to allow DACA which would give 1.7 million people EAD because that would fetch them more votes. If adding 55,000 green cards meant getting more votes, they would have done that.

[rupen86]

I always prefer STEM as it is not country dependent, gives prefernce to local advanced degrees in specific field(that's why they get grants) and will promote growth. It will be a win win situation , rather than a bio scientist working on a testing tools in IT(I do not have any complaints for those, but when some one is working in his field of study, he should be given preferece. that's all)

Comparing HR 3012 with STEM is simply wrong. Both have different purpose. STEM is not going to help existing people in EB categories, if it is applied to new students. Even if it is applied to existing people in EB categories, its effect is not going to be significant as 3012 for the reason mentioned in other post.

[gs1968]

To sportsfan
I think now that it is going to happen next week

http://influencealley.nationaljourna...-immigrati.php

To quote from the same article

"Congressional Democrats and the White House are urging companies not to support the bill, arguing they've not had enough time to review it, Republicans say."

Serious intent or mere posturing?

The Hill also has this in their overnight TECH segment

"Lamar Smith expected to drop high-skilled immigration bill: House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith (R-Texas) is expected to drop a high-skilled immigration bill on Friday that would create two new visa categories aimed at keeping foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) fields in the United States, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The bill would create one visa category for recipients of master's degrees in a STEM field and the other category would be dedicated to Ph.D. graduates in a STEM field. The visas created in the bill would be permanent and the two categories will each include a different set of criteria for people to meet. It would also eliminate the diversity visa program, one source said, which might not go over well with some House Democrats.

The bill is expected to be taken up in the House for a vote sometime next week. There will be a meeting with various industry representatives in the GOP whip's office on Friday morning to gauge their support for the bill, according to the two sources. Smith has also floated a compromise proposal for his bill to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. A spokeswoman for Smith did not respond to a request for comment about the forthcoming measure. "

[abcx13]

So BHO had time to review the deferred action EA that he passed overnight, but not something that gives GCs to STEM MS/PhDs that he has supported in the past. Two faced lying SOB.

Sorry I know it's election year politics, but just had to vent.

[rupen86]

To sportsfan
I think now that it is going to happen next week

http://influencealley.nationaljourna...-immigrati.php

To quote from the same article

"Congressional Democrats and the White House are urging companies not to support the bill, arguing they've not had enough time to review it, Republicans say."

Serious intent or mere posturing?

The Hill also has this in their overnight TECH segment

"Lamar Smith expected to drop high-skilled immigration bill: House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith (R-Texas) is expected to drop a high-skilled immigration bill on Friday that would create two new visa categories aimed at keeping foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) fields in the United States, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The bill would create one visa category for recipients of master's degrees in a STEM field and the other category would be dedicated to Ph.D. graduates in a STEM field. The visas created in the bill would be permanent and the two categories will each include a different set of criteria for people to meet. It would also eliminate the diversity visa program, one source said, which might not go over well with some House Democrats.

The bill is expected to be taken up in the House for a vote sometime next week. There will be a meeting with various industry representatives in the GOP whip's office on Friday morning to gauge their support for the bill, according to the two sources. Smith has also floated a compromise proposal for his bill to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. A spokeswoman for Smith did not respond to a request for comment about the forthcoming measure. "

It is not 2 categories. From the link, it looked like one category to me. It says "Green cards not used by PhDs would be available to those with STEM master's degrees.". EB1, where PHDs apply, unused numbers from that category would flow here as opposed to EB2. Or I have not interpreted right. But this looks like a tough one to pass seeing democratic and white house opposition.

[abcx13]

I cannot believe I used to support the Democratic party at one time. It looks like they are interested in turning the US into a 3rd world country overflowing with masses of beggars who look at the Government for handouts. I am done with them, and when I become eligible, mine and my wife's (as well as my daughter's) votes will count against them. Enough is enough.

No sensible bill for legal high earning EB applicants can pass under the Democrat's noses. While I can understand the HR3012 stalling, there is just no excuse for STEM. I have read on some blogs on how the US is overlowing with a surplus of STEM graduates. Phooey! My experience says otherwise. Any American citizen who can get a Masters in STEM gets a job. Period. There are an overwhelming number of STEM jobs that require security clearance and citizenship, and all immigrants are automatically disqualified. I went through it back in 2003, and today, the field is *more tilted against us*. There are only a handful of companies (like ours) who hire immigrants and for the past 3 or 4 years, I see an increasing number of extremely talented people handing us their resumes. Lockheeds and Raytheons get US citizens and they are absolutely not dying.

Yes, once you hit your 40s, you cannot continue the same entitled attitude and you may get fired for your lack of performance. How convenient to blame your job loss on the poor H1B shmuck.

Let's cut the bull here. America is not overflowing with *true STEM talent*. There are also ways to make the bill sensible and include PhD granting universities that are funded by NSF and DARPA regularly. That will make this an excellent bill. But the Dems won't allow it because...*gasp*...they haven't reviewed it.

Sad, pathetic and disgusting. I hope they lose both the presidency and the Senate.

Agree with you wholeheartedly. This REALLY sours me on the Democrats.

Also, I love how idiots say that foreigners are driving down STEM wages and this is why Americans don't study science/engineering (and study shit like Russian studies and LGBT studies instead - I'm not saying those aren't important, but you have to look at what's the right proportion). That is such a bullshit argument because if they actually looked at the freakin' statistics, they'd find that engineers still make the most money out of all majors. So it's a bullshit argument. While there are some incredibly hardworking and smart engineers I know (American, European, etc.), STEM wages have nothing to do with whether one studies STEM or not - either people dislike STEM or they think it's too hard. It's never the damn wages.

[rupen86]

I cannot believe I used to support the Democratic party at one time. It looks like they are interested in turning the US into a 3rd world country overflowing with masses of beggars who look at the Government for handouts. I am done with them, and when I become eligible, mine and my wife's (as well as my daughter's) votes will count against them. Enough is enough.

No sensible bill for legal high earning EB applicants can pass under the Democrat's noses. While I can understand the HR3012 stalling, there is just no excuse for STEM. I have read on some blogs on how the US is overlowing with a surplus of STEM graduates. Phooey! My experience says otherwise. Any American citizen who can get a Masters in STEM gets a job. Period. There are an overwhelming number of STEM jobs that require security clearance and citizenship, and all immigrants are automatically disqualified. I went through it back in 2003, and today, the field is *more tilted against us*. There are only a handful of companies (like ours) who hire immigrants and for the past 3 or 4 years, I see an increasing number of extremely talented people handing us their resumes. Lockheeds and Raytheons get US citizens and they are absolutely not dying.

Yes, once you hit your 40s, you cannot continue the same entitled attitude and you may get fired for your lack of performance. How convenient to blame your job loss on the poor H1B shmuck.

Let's cut the bull here. America is not overflowing with *true STEM talent*. There are also ways to make the bill sensible and include PhD granting universities that are funded by NSF and DARPA regularly. That will make this an excellent bill. But the Dems won't allow it because...*gasp*...they haven't reviewed it.

Sad, pathetic and disgusting. I hope they lose both the presidency and the Senate.

I see no logic in passing STEM and not passing 3012. Both rely on changing the rule of giving green card based on country of origin. Whatever bogus reason of "not protecting American worker" applied in case of 3012, should apply here also.

[Pedro Gonzales]

To quote from the same article
"Congressional Democrats and the White House are urging companies not to support the bill, arguing they've not had enough time to review it, Republicans say."

So BHO had time to review the deferred action EA that he passed overnight, but not something that gives GCs to STEM MS/PhDs that he has supported in the past. Two faced lying SOB.

Sorry I know it's election year politics, but just had to vent.

You're enraged based on 3rd degree information. The article quotes a Republican lobbyist claiming that the White House is against the bill. The next sentence in the article goes "The fact of the matter is that politically, Democrats don't want to give a Republican Congress a win on immigration reform, especially when it comes to high-tech," said a GOP tech lobbyist. How he can claim this when HR3012 has been held up by Republicans for 10 months, is beyond me. At the very least that should hurt his credibility sufficiently that you give the WH the benefit of the doubt for now.

[rupen86]

You're enraged based on 3rd degree information. The article quotes a Republican lobbyist claiming that the White House is against the bill. The next sentence in the article goes "The fact of the matter is that politically, Democrats don't want to give a Republican Congress a win on immigration reform, especially when it comes to high-tech," said a GOP tech lobbyist. How he can claim this when HR3012 has been held up by Republicans for 10 months, is beyond me. At the very least that should hurt his credibility sufficiently that you give the WH the benefit of the doubt for now.

Because it is republican sponsored, democrats may not want to pass it fearing republicans would get credit. 3012 was held by Grassley (Republican) but there was always an option for putting motion to proceed if democrats felt it was important bill to pass. I can't imagine that it would have been difficult to get 60 votes when it was passed with overwhelming republican majority in the house. The fact is democrats favor DREAM act which would mostly be for illegals making them legal and then along with that they would include something for legal immigration. Democrats are least interested in passing only legal immigration bill. So, the article is not really wrong in pointing this out.

[Pedro Gonzales]

I cannot believe I used to support the Democratic party at one time. It looks like they are interested in turning the US into a 3rd world country overflowing with masses of beggars who look at the Government for handouts. I am done with them, and when I become eligible, mine and my wife's (as well as my daughter's) votes will count against them. Enough is enough.

No sensible bill for legal high earning EB applicants can pass under the Democrat's noses. While I can understand the HR3012 stalling, there is just no excuse for STEM.

Agree with you wholeheartedly. This REALLY sours me on the Democrats.

Shaant gadhadhari bhim shaant! Let the bill get tabled and voted on in the House and we'll see where the Democrats stand.

My experience has always been that the Democrats are generally for all immigration, legal and illegal, high skilled and low skilled and that the Republicans are generally against all immigration. Now, as to nuances, the Dems focus more on low skilled and illegal immigration based on satisfying the Hispanic vote, but that doesn't prove to me that the Republicans support high skill legal immigration more than the Democrats. Finally, the only verifiable fact on the subject that matters to me is that HR 3012 has been and is continuing to be stalled by Republicans.

[rupen86]

Shaant gadhadhari bhim shaant! Let the bill get tabled and voted on in the House and we'll see where the Democrats stand.

My experience has always been that the Democrats are generally for all immigration, legal and illegal, high skilled and low skilled and that the Republicans are generally against all immigration. Now, as to nuances, the Dems focus more on low skilled and illegal immigration based on satisfying the Hispanic vote, but that doesn't prove to me that the Republicans support high skill legal immigration more than the Democrats. Finally, the only verifiable fact on the subject that matters to me is that HR 3012 has been and is continuing to be stalled by Republicans.

No one knows why the bill is stalled after the hold is released.

[abcx13]

Shaant gadhadhari bhim shaant! Let the bill get tabled and voted on in the House and we'll see where the Democrats stand.

My experience has always been that the Democrats are generally for all immigration, legal and illegal, high skilled and low skilled and that the Republicans are generally against all immigration. Now, as to nuances, the Dems focus more on low skilled and illegal immigration based on satisfying the Hispanic vote, but that doesn't prove to me that the Republicans support high skill legal immigration more than the Democrats. Finally, the only verifiable fact on the subject that matters to me is that HR 3012 has been and is continuing to be stalled by Republicans.

The Republicans may not actually support this if they win the Senate too. I think right now it's just a bone they are throwing to be seen as immigration friendly by the tech/business community, especially now that Obama passed that exec order.

But the Democrats care more about illegal immigration and the stupid Irish visa (sorry, Diversity visa) more than about legal immigration - and that's what is annoying. They could do an exec order for DREAMERs, but they couldn't file for cloture on HR3012? And they're the ones holding up trading the DV for STEM/EB GCs, not the Republicans.

[rupen86]

The Republicans may not actually support this if they win the Senate too. I think right now it's just a bone they are throwing to be seen as immigration friendly by the tech/business community, especially now that Obama passed that exec order.

But the Democrats care more about illegal immigration and the stupid Irish visa (sorry, Diversity visa) more than about legal immigration - and that's what is annoying. They could do an exec order for DREAMERs, but they couldn't file for cloture on HR3012? And they're the ones holding up trading the DV for STEM/EB GCs, not the Republicans.

I agree with this. But this means that we do not have anyone who would further our interest.

[rupen86]

Was AC21 passed in a Dem or Repub Senate? Also, I thought the stalling of HR3012 had to do with the Dems wasted attempts of attaching the Irish-E3 rider to it too. If Grassley alone had been a problem, it would have been easy to deal with him and his amendments should have been out back in March instead of July.

Also, when it comes to immigration in senate, Dick Durbin is democratic leader who sides with Grassley in imposing restrictions on H1 but at the same time, he sides with passing DACA which would give EAD to 1.7 million people without any kind of so called "protection".

[immitime]

The only immigration bill which have bipartisan support in Senate and congress is only H.R.3012. Of course there is possibility only for this Bill. STEM bill is only proposal and it will be stalled in the present Senate.

In one sentence.

H.R.3012 is kept for lame duck session for the time being.(They may take up around Sept 21st also who knows?) The main hindrance now for H.R.3012 in the Senate and in particular Senate Democrats, because of elections, if H.R.3012 becomes law now, in the Presidential Debate Romney can score by showing that Republican bill passed both houses with a bipartisan support! So we may need to wait until November for H.R.3012. Hold on the land is not faraway!

[rupen86]

The only immigration bill which have bipartisan support in Senate and congress is only H.R.3012. Of course there is possibility only for this Bill. STEM bill is only proposal and it will be stalled in the present Senate.

In one sentence.

H.R.3012 is kept for lame duck session for the time being.(They may take up around Sept 21st also who knows?) The main hindrance now for H.R.3012 in the Senate and in particular Senate Democrats, because of elections, if H.R.3012 becomes law now, in the Presidential Debate Romney can score by showing that Republican bill passed both houses with a bipartisan support! So we may need to wait until November for H.R.3012. Hold on the land is not faraway!

What is the need for negotiation to release the hold before election ?