Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[rupen86]

I remember reading somewhere that the only chance for this bill is the lame duck Congress *after* the election.

It is a certainty that this bill will not be taken up in September. However, I still have high hopes for the bill in November. My optimism has 2 reasons:

a) The EB2-I PD - I have firsthand experience how apathetic EB2-I folks were last year and around the beginning of this year when the PD was flying through the hyperspace. Thanks to the Q's forum and the informed opinions of the Gurus, I knew this advance was artificial, but to an average EB2-I immigrant, it was only a matter of time before the dates were to be current. Not so! I think in the next month or 2, there can be more EB2-I folks who will join the effort if ** has any specific action item.

b) ** organized a rally and it seems to be a decent success. They still seem committed. I think they will come out with some action items that strategically aim for the bill's passage in the lame duck Congress. The President can sign while leaving the office.

I searched on Google for ** rally. But can not seem to find any news related to that. Do you have any link for that ?

[GhostWriter]

I never said we do not have flaws. I certainly do not see a large skilled workforce as a flaw. All the other things you mention (Iraq war, Kashmir ??) have nothing to do with what we were discussing.
The usage in EB2-ROW and EB1 has increased leaving less spillover. The I-485 receipts data indicate that to be the case for 2011 and 2012.
As Spec pointed out to you few pages back that change in EB1-C is not that significant.
Post 1
Post 2
For porting, the law firms have been doing a great job in marketing porting to EB3. Who is opposing all the ammendments to fix some of the malpractices for H1, law firms again.

Jumping a red light is illegal, here everyone is playing by the rules. The opinion on rules should be independent of people using those rules. India does not come into the picture except for the 7% country cap.

I will ignore all the other abusive remarks you made. Yelling at your family at home because you can't face the outside world does not seem very courageous to me.

End of discussion from my side, the stage is all yours.

Others should like us for our ability to introspect and correct our flaws and make ourselves better people. I find it sad that you don't possess the courage to see the shortcomings in (y)our fellow countrymen. I guess it is easier to criticize Americans for going to Iraq but much harder to see our own failings - whether it is with a clogged immigration system or opressing religious minorities in Kashmir or in the N. East. Just because someone is an American or an Indian doesn't mean they can't be critical of their own country.

If Indian demographics, education levels, language skills, wages were truly world class as you implicitly claim, India would be a much better place today. You seriously believe that India generates over HALF of the highly skilled qualified workers in the world that want to immigrate to the US and that labor cost arbitrage/skirting the rules is not a component to the mass influx of Indians employed in IT? The wilful blindness is truly staggering. It's one thing to be cogniznant of the situation and still game the system, but to deny the part Indians play in messing it up is ridiculous and cowardly.

As to whether I expect people to keep using the best possible option available, I expect a modicum of honesty in the process. This is why India is a mess - everyone is trying to use the "best option" available to them, which includes everything from employing underage laborers to skipping red lights. The law and propriety be damned. Sab chalta hai.

[immitime]

I never said we do not have flaws. I certainly do not see a large skilled workforce as a flaw. All the other things you mention (Iraq war, Kashmir ??) have nothing to do with what we were discussing.
The usage in EB2-ROW and EB1 has increased leaving less spillover. The I-485 receipts data indicate that to be the case for 2011 and 2012.
As Spec pointed out to you few pages back that change in EB1-C is not that significant.
Post 1
Post 2
For porting, the law firms have been doing a great job in marketing porting to EB3. Who is opposing all the ammendments to fix some of the malpractices for H1, law firms again.

Jumping a red light is illegal, here everyone is playing by the rules. The opinion on rules should be independent of people using those rules. India does not come into the picture except for the 7% country cap.

I will ignore all the other abusive remarks you made. Yelling at your wife/kids/younger siblings at home because you can't face the outside world does not seem very courageous to me.

End of discussion from my side, the stage is all yours.

Your wordings:
Quote:
Jumping a red light is illegal, here everyone is playing by the rules.
UnQuote

Everyone is not playing by the rules, the spillover law interpretation change (2007/2008) with out legislation is unfair and injustice done to lot of EB3 immigrants.

[abcx13]

Modern Western system is based upon "good faith" and giving "benefit of doubt". How is it that Indian companies managed to mess the "good faith" based immigration systems? Case in points: substitute labor abuse, H1B abuse from 2005-2008 and the current abuse in EB1C. I will not get into the porting discussion, but the point made about EB1C is valid. I had a personal story to share here. The gist is that my wife was working as a senior manager last year, and she was offered a job as a manager from one of the maligned IT giants, who promised GC in 1 year. Needless to say, the L1A-EB1C route was available to her. She is not yet 30, had zilch managerial experience to that point, and if we would have taken that route, I would be looking at my GC by next spring.

I am not going to generalize an entire population. There are some amazingly hard working people in India and I have first hand experienced the generosity and the ability of people to help each other in tough times. Having said this, I am only going to note that on a macro scale, India is a mess. And a lot of anger about the practices such as EB1C stems from the deep unfairness about it. There are ways to curtail the almost fraudulent EB1C and manage EB1 demand. Whether those will be implemented or not - another story.

Thanks for the support, sport! I will only add that EB1C fraud is one thing (and it's small as Spec pointed out), but there is fraud in other ways too - L1s requiring 'specialized knowledge', working on B1/B2s, not paying benched H1Bs, people overstaying H1Bs after losing jobs, people finding 'universities' after losing jobs, questionable degrees and educational evals, no pay raises. The list goes on and on. The last one - no pay raises - is not illegal but from the friends I have working as FTEs at Fortune 500 employers, they are typically not held hostage the way a CTS or an Infy does. (I realize there are some cases where Fortune 500s can screw you too but I think it's fair to say the % is lower.) Now I don't have hard numbers to back this up because USCIS/DHS don't make them available but I read that they once found 20% of LCAs were fraudulent. And anecdotally, I have seen enough posts on trackitt and other forums to know that all these issues are more than just exceptions to the rule.

I personally know 5 people (it was 3 until last week) who have gamed H1s, B1/B2s and L1s - all Indians but not just IT. And I don't even know that many IT types, where I suspect the numbers will be higher. Some of the smartest people I know (BS/MS from top 10 univs, working at Google, MS, etc.) have actually gone back because they can't be bothered to deal with the pain-in-the-ass immigration system (in fact, their companies were actually pushing them to file GCs). I read somewhere that the US only gets the mediocre and tired engineers these days, and I think that's true. Someone from MIT or Stanford is increasingly unwilling to wait for 10 years in immigration limbo. In fact, on a PPP basis, they can earn way more in India (this I know first hand), better growth and professional opportunities, etc. I suspect for the bodyshoppers, the quality of life in India is worse than what they can get here, and that's why they are willing to wait for eons.

BTW, a good analogy for all of this is Romney's tax returns. What he did was most likely legal, but do you think most Americans consider it fair even if the system permits it? Same thing here except there might actually be more undetected illegality and fraud here (just the way there is on Wall Street).

[gs1968]

3012 has no budget implication. I do not understand (except spreading negativity) why you are linking both. E2 was passed for Israeli investors. What provisions allotted for that?

I was not being negative at all and I think you misunderstood the post. By clean spending Bill I meant that no other provisions or "riders" were attached to it. I did not imply that this had any spending implications. As the passage of the CR is very important to keep the Govt Funding ongoing,a lot of Congressmen try to attach their own pet projects as they are virtually assured of passage. In this instance,prior to the summer recess I read that the House and Senate leaders had agreed to keep the Bill free of any such additions but the end product does not always end up that way. In this instance they had a CR ready to be circulated on the opening day of the session and after the 48 hour perusal period, it appears like both Chambers are going to bring it to the floor and vote for final passage.
As for the adjournment date I was surprised to see the Sept 21 date on Politico because I felt that they would be in session atleast till the end of the month(which may still be the case). There are Senators like Mrs.McCaskill and Mrs Stabenow who are in very tight races and as the control of the Senate hinges on these races-the Democrats may decide to adjourn earlier to give the embattled Senators more time to campaign.

[pakkpk]

You are right. I misunderstood the post because I do not understand how bill politics work at the hill. Still your post linking resolution to 3012 gives very clear hint of spreading negative sentiment. Anyway sometimes, negative sentiment also motivate people to be active and support 3012 efforts.

I was not being negative at all and I think you misunderstood the post. By clean spending Bill I meant that no other provisions or "riders" were attached to it. I did not imply that this had any spending implications. As the passage of the CR is very important to keep the Govt Funding ongoing,a lot of Congressmen try to attach their own pet projects as they are virtually assured of passage. In this instance,prior to the summer recess I read that the House and Senate leaders had agreed to keep the Bill free of any such additions but the end product does not always end up that way. In this instance they had a CR ready to be circulated on the opening day of the session and after the 48 hour perusal period, it appears like both Chambers are going to bring it to the floor and vote for final passage.
As for the adjournment date I was surprised to see the Sept 21 date on Politico because I felt that they would be in session atleast till the end of the month(which may still be the case). There are Senators like Mrs.McCaskill and Mrs Stabenow who are in very tight races and as the control of the Senate hinges on these races-the Democrats may decide to adjourn earlier to give the embattled Senators more time to campaign.

[bvsamrat]

I absolutely agree with you abc. Where the good faith is required, we lack this and it should be brought out if we want to improve as ourselves. AS we are discussing about HR3012 whhich helps Indians in particular, we should also discuss about the other issues which help us.

Nevertheless think about so caled special skills and talents. Why would any IIT or IIM would wait for 10 years to get GC and loose career. No way! I beleive Grassley's strict H1b is very much required as well as HR3012 which shoud stop all these practices.

Thanks for the support, sport! I will only add that EB1C fraud is one thing (and it's small as Spec pointed out), but there is fraud in other ways too - L1s requiring 'specialized knowledge', working on B1/B2s, not paying benched H1Bs, people overstaying H1Bs after losing jobs, people finding 'universities' after losing jobs, questionable degrees and educational evals, no pay raises. The list goes on and on. The last one - no pay raises - is not illegal but from the friends I have working as FTEs at Fortune 500 employers, they are typically not held hostage the way a CTS or an Infy does. (I realize there are some cases where Fortune 500s can screw you too but I think it's fair to say the % is lower.) Now I don't have hard numbers to back this up because USCIS/DHS don't make them available but I read that they once found 20% of LCAs were fraudulent. And anecdotally, I have seen enough posts on trackitt and other forums to know that all these issues are more than just exceptions to the rule.

I personally know 5 people (it was 3 until last week) who have gamed H1s, B1/B2s and L1s - all Indians but not just IT. And I don't even know that many IT types, where I suspect the numbers will be higher. Some of the smartest people I know (BS/MS from top 10 univs, working at Google, MS, etc.) have actually gone back because they can't be bothered to deal with the pain-in-the-ass immigration system (in fact, their companies were actually pushing them to file GCs). I read somewhere that the US only gets the mediocre and tired engineers these days, and I think that's true. Someone from MIT or Stanford is increasingly unwilling to wait for 10 years in immigration limbo. In fact, on a PPP basis, they can earn way more in India (this I know first hand), better growth and professional opportunities, etc. I suspect for the bodyshoppers, the quality of life in India is worse than what they can get here, and that's why they are willing to wait for eons.

BTW, a good analogy for all of this is Romney's tax returns. What he did was most likely legal, but do you think most Americans consider it fair even if the system permits it? Same thing here except there might actually be more undetected illegality and fraud here (just the way there is on Wall Street).

[abcx13]

AS we are discussing about HR3012 whhich helps Indians in particular, we should also discuss about the other issues which help us.

I find when I talk to people from India, they still have this rosy view of the US. A lot of want to migrate but they've almost never done any research into how long it will take for them to get a GC. So I usually advise them not to even bother since it'll take at least five years.

[geterdone]

They are discussing immigration and dream act in senate- you can watch it on C-Span 2.

[Pedro Gonzales]

"As always, we Indians have screwed up the system for ourselves. "

I think you mean to say, "As always some Indians have screwed the system up for other Indians."

I don't believe that there is anything that I did that contributed to my wait except perhaps refusing to marry that girl who was born in Dubai.

[chengisk]

I don't believe that there is anything that I did that contributed to my wait except perhaps refusing to marry that girl who was born in Dubai.

Nice one. Imagine how easily you could have sailed through without even knowing that there is something called demand data or inventory... or Qesehmk.org

[Ramsen]

But when you see it from India even H1b itself is enough. Most of people coming to USA for staying 5 years or so and go back. After coming everything changes after comparing with neigbors and friends. If you like USA still you are better off even without GC. You can stay indefinitely if you file your GC. GC is added advantage and you will have some flexiblity. Otherwise for american dream GC is not mandatory and nice to have. I am sure this is perspective when you see it from India. It changes after you come here

I find when I talk to people from India, they still have this rosy view of the US. A lot of want to migrate but they've almost never done any research into how long it will take for them to get a GC. So I usually advise them not to even bother since it'll take at least five years.

[abcx13]

But when you see it from India even H1b itself is enough. Most of people coming to USA for staying 5 years or so and go back. After coming everything changes after comparing with neigbors and friends. If you like USA still you are better off even without GC. You can stay indefinitely if you file your GC. GC is added advantage and you will have some flexiblity. Otherwise for american dream GC is not mandatory and nice to have. I am sure this is perspective when you see it from India. It changes after you come here

I'm not disagreeing with you and people have told me the same thing, but I find such thinking foolish and naive (not yours, theirs). Staying indefinitely on H1s or EADs is not a sensible option for most people despite what they think at first - especially not in this shitty economy.

GC is definitely mandatory for the American dream of switching jobs freely, starting your own company and striking it rich, sending your kids to college with financial aid, etc. The main reason I didn't start a company in the US was because I couldn't.

[abcx13]

"As always, we Indians have screwed up the system for ourselves. "

I think you mean to say, "As always some Indians have screwed the system up for other Indians."

Yes, but considering how much flak I draw anyway...

[gs1968]

To Ramsen
That may be the case but of late I have also seen numerous people with Green Cards move back to India due to professional/personal reasons.Our usual joke is that if you have sons you stay and if you have daughters you leave before it is too late

To chengisk
Did you ever find the brown basmati rice at Asia Imports on Central Avenue?

[chengisk]

To Ramsen
That may be the case but of late I have also seen numerous people with Green Cards move back to India due to professional/personal reasons.Our usual joke is that if you have sons you stay and if you have daughters you leave before it is too late

To chengisk
Did you ever find the brown basmati rice at Asia Imports on Central Avenue?

Thanks, I did. I've been to that store a few time before and never noticed it. But when I went looking specifically for it, there were indeed 4 or 5 brands of the rice. Thanks again.

[Ramsen]

I am seeing 90% of GC holders are staying in a job and only 10% or less are starting own company. For those 90% you need GC only for changing jobs frequently. If economy is bad then going back to India or other country is better option. GC is important but not to the level of fighting in the street(rally etc). Continue to lobby and sending emails are enough and GC can get that much respect. But some people in ** are comparing this to the level of freedom struggle or Aparthid or segregation.

I'm not disagreeing with you and people have told me the same thing, but I find such thinking foolish and naive (not yours, theirs). Staying indefinitely on H1s or EADs is not a sensible option for most people despite what they think at first - especially not in this shitty economy.

GC is definitely mandatory for the American dream of switching jobs freely, starting your own company and striking it rich, sending your kids to college with financial aid, etc. The main reason I didn't start a company in the US was because I couldn't.

[Ramsen]

To Ramsen
That may be the case but of late I have also seen numerous people with Green Cards move back to India due to professional/personal reasons.Our usual joke is that if you have sons you stay and if you have daughters you leave before it is too late

That is the reason many new H1bs are getting a job even though economy is bad. The job situation does not improve. The job opportunities in IT improvaed due to the following factors
1. H1b process restrictions
2. Many GC/Citizens going back to India
3. Reduction of outsourcing due to backlash(This is only small amount)

[qesehmk]

The main reason I didn't start a company in the US was because I couldn't.

ABC you don't need gc to start a business.

[rupen86]

During the drought of any good news, I found one.

http://www.kplu.org/post/microsoft-u...h-skilled-jobs

[immitime]

Conway was also quick to note that immigration reform is seriously needed for continued innovation. The US Senate may take up a minor reform bill, The Fairness In High Skilled Immigrants Act, which would end country-specific caps on high skilled visas (H1-B). However, it’s uncertain whether the Senate will be able to pass the bill that had broad support in the House of Representatives before the election recess.

Read & See More using below link

http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/11/ron...g-tech-policy/

[gs1968]

Another piece of interesting news

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/netw...stem-jobs-act/

[rupen86]

Another piece of interesting news

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/netw...stem-jobs-act/

This could be combined with 3012 in lame duck. If this is taken up and not 3012, it would be very bizarre that 3012 was held up and later stalled for so called reason that "it does not protect American workers" but at the same time, they allowed to pass STEM. That would also mean that university lobbying is more powerful than technology industry.

[vishnu]

I am indifferent which one passes, because it is sure to alleviate current EB backlog in any case.

[rupen86]

I am indifferent which one passes, because it is sure to alleviate current EB backlog in any case.

I disagree with that. STEM bill is only going to benefit those who take advance degree in STEM fields and in one of the universities selected. I believe it would be applied to the new students and petitioning employer has to petition under STEM quota. It does not reduce current EB2 and EB3 backlog. Even if we say that it would apply to some of the people who are now in EB2 and EB3 category and have graduated from one of the universities selected from STEM, then they would migrate to that category but that number would be pretty small.