EB2 Predictions (Rather Calculations) - 2011

[kd2008]

The second point surprises me. If the individual has a MS or Phd degree from a credible US university, then the university authorities must have found the credential of the individual to be equivalent to a Bachelors degree holder during the admission procedure; else, they wouldn't have admitted the individual in the first place. I don't see the point questioning the Bachelors degree at this point of time when the person has finished a Phd. I recently came across a thread in trackitt where a person with a Phd in some scientific discipline (I forgot the exact subject) and probably having a 3 year undergrad degree had his/her I140 denied.

Job requirements, job requirements, job requirements! It does not matter how many degrees you have. It matters which one of the degrees you have satisfies the job requirements. If the job said BS+5yrs then having a PhD is not much of use if you cannot document you have that single-source 4 yr BS in first place.

[pch053]

The case from trackitt that I am mentioning didn't have the requirement of BS + 5 years requirement; it specifically wanted an advanced degree (MS and/or Phd) and the job is for a research scientist position. However, I should add though that I am not fully sure (and the post was not very clear either) on whether the 4 year degree was the only issue or whether it had other problems too.

[qesehmk]

gcq your anguish is understandable. But it would be quite a stretch to compare USCIS operations to gunda raj. They try to operate within a framework and there always is lattitude. Sending an RFE is within their rights. Denying it on flimsy grounds would be questionable but the act of sending RFE is hardly questionable.

Now a days USCIS is run by goonda raj. They come up with their own crazy rfes which does not have any legal basis. How is the underlying degree relevant when a US university has conferred MS on this candidate ?

[natvyas]

Now a days USCIS is run by goonda raj. They come up with their own crazy rfes which does not have any legal basis. How is the underlying degree relevant when a US university has conferred MS on this candidate ?

This would also mean somebody who has done 3 year degree won't be eligible for a post graduate degree in his life ( as per USCIS )

The point is that they are doing a thorough review at the I-140 stage and raising an RFE if they have an ioata of doubt when it comes to 3 yr degrees.

Bear in mind that in India if you have a diploma then BE is a 3 yrs program.

[gcq]

I agree they can send RFEs for relevant issues. They should. Now a days they are sending lot of crazy RFEs. If you noted recent AILA meeting with DHS, AILA brought up the point that USCIS was sending lot of template RFEs sometimes for the information lawyer has submitted already. Along with this 3 year degree rfes, employer-employee rfes also have no legal basis.

Coming to 3 year degree, congress instituted the EB immigration primarily for foreign graduates. US standards for a Bachelors degree is different from the standard being followed by many nations. Congress included the wording bachelors equivalent to accommodate that. Now USCIS says single source 4 year degree is the only bachelors equivalent. This is incorrect. It isn't listed anywhere in the law that bachelor's equivalent has to be a "4 year single source degree". That is USCIS own invention which is wrong.

[vishnu]

If this 'strict' regime becomes the norm, then EB1 and for that matter, EB2 approvals will continue to be on the 'low' side. So there will continue to be significant SOFAD and for that reason, there will be a greater incentive for them to pre-adjudicate applications to avoid wastage of visas. I think the likelihood of moving dates to 2008 and even beyond is significant.

[qesehmk]

Thanks. Good information.

I agree they can send RFEs for relevant issues. They should. Now a days they are sending lot of crazy RFEs. If you noted recent AILA meeting with DHS, AILA brought up the point that USCIS was sending lot of template RFEs sometimes for the information lawyer has submitted already. Along with this 3 year degree rfes, employer-employee rfes also have no legal basis.

Coming to 3 year degree, congress instituted the EB immigration primarily for foreign graduates. US standards for a Bachelors degree is different from the standard being followed by many nations. Congress included the wording bachelors equivalent to accommodate that. Now USCIS says single source 4 year degree is the only bachelors equivalent. This is incorrect. It isn't listed anywhere in the law that bachelor's equivalent has to be a "4 year single source degree". That is USCIS own invention which is wrong.

[grnwtg]

Wow, that is touching and I too have some feelings but i have brother and sister ( and their children) back home. Came to this country after fighting in each office i visited for not doing their work. My parents visa got rejected two times( 2nd time interviewer had rejection letter before my Dad gave his required documents and then he was almost pushed by a lady when he tried to ask reason), it was like monopoly in Consulate.
Its been 10 yrs in usa and Finally Got my new Home last week hoping that i will get GC in coming year.

Apology for deviating from main forums...Really Touched with Nishant's Post.

[donvar]

Now a days USCIS is run by goonda raj. They come up with their own crazy rfes which does not have any legal basis. How is the underlying degree relevant when a US university has conferred MS on this candidate ?

This would also mean somebody who has done 3 year degree won't be eligible for a post graduate degree in his life ( as per USCIS )

I don't think prerequisite for MS degree can be related with prerequiste for degree qualification for immigration.
But I understand they are tightening the screws. When you have so much fraud going ( CTS is misusing the GC process and just this year they have filed 482 EB1C applications, 15-20 times more than any other Indian IT consultancy (and nobody is asking how come they need so many international managers. The golden words said are that they have legal documents and we all know how difficult is to show someone in a manager role)

This was bound to happen, we (esp Indians) tend to ignore the fraud as long as we get our card in time , but then the rest of community suffers. Employer-Employee memo, denied H1B stamping etc are all the fruits of our indifference.

[neospeed]

http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=35594

[veni001]

I agree they can send RFEs for relevant issues. They should. Now a days they are sending lot of crazy RFEs. If you noted recent AILA meeting with DHS, AILA brought up the point that USCIS was sending lot of template RFEs sometimes for the information lawyer has submitted already. Along with this 3 year degree rfes, employer-employee rfes also have no legal basis.

Coming to 3 year degree, congress instituted the EB immigration primarily for foreign graduates. US standards for a Bachelors degree is different from the standard being followed by many nations. Congress included the wording bachelors equivalent to accommodate that. Now USCIS says single source 4 year degree is the only bachelors equivalent. This is incorrect. It isn't listed anywhere in the law that bachelor's equivalent has to be a "4 year single source degree". That is USCIS own invention which is wrong.

gcq,
In almost all these cases PERM Labor is key, if the min job requirement is BS+5-yrs and the lawyer is trying to show BS equivalent there come the conflict.

[Spectator]

I agree that USCIS have "invented" their own definitions regarding equivalence to a US Baccalaureate.

In many ways, it not a "3 Year Degree" problem but maybe one of total years of education.

I would argue that the US system has to be a 4 year program simply because the education system turns out high school graduates with such poor skills that they need an additional year's worth of general education to attain the level required for a Bachelors Degree.

Virtually all of European education comes under the Bologna Accord (or Process or Declaration) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process where Bachelors are 3 year degrees. That has always been the model for some European Countries such as the UK.

One has to assume that these degrees are accepted by USCIS (although I think most European Countries have a year extra Secondary Education before proceeding to University studies), since a 4 year Baccalaureate course is not available to most people in Europe.

The following links discuss the Bologna degree system and how it is accepted by the USA. Most are rather old and I suspect all Bologna Degrees are accepted these days (at least from the major European Countries).

http://www.wes.org/ewenr/04march/feature.htm
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/06/bologna
http://www.wes.org/educators/pdf/BolognaPacket.pdf

Some interesting quotes from this document http://www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/mtg_am06scott.pdf

WHAT OTHERS ARE SAYING

•In the end you will all accept the Bologna degree.
Les Sims, former CGS/NSF Dean-in-Residence, former graduate dean, University of Iowa, May, 2005

•“Globalization is, and will continue to be, one of the salient features of higher education in the 21stCentury. Informed mutual recognition of higher education degrees is a corollary of globalization.”
Myron Thompson, Associate Provost and Executive Director,graduate school, University at Buffalo, SUNY, April, 2006

•“Within the US system a Bachelor is not a Bachelor, not even from the same institution, let alone from different types of institutions. Also within your system the answer to the problem lies in individual assessment….US institutions have always accepted British Bachelor graduates and can therefore not in principle deny continental Europeans the same treatment.”
Christian Bode, Secretary General of the German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD), November, 2006

I think that the Indian Government could have been much more pro-active in tackling this issue (perhaps even by signing up to the Bologna Accord as Australia appears to have done - it is not an EU initiative).

[donvar]

Amen! That my dream too. I hope I gather the courage to do so. I am a travel freak. Have shows almost all US to my kids who are in their single digits yet. I hope I can show them half of India in next 5 years (and that too by train!).


Getting too much senti out here!! So long for now!

I also wanted to pent but then this couplet came out.

Zakhm kitne teri chahat ne diye hain mujhko, sochta hoon kahoon kisi se, magar Jane de. :-)

But this wait has done some irreversible damage.

[donvar]

Nishant

No worries.... Thanks for posting.

I agree with this person. I too have missed every single Diwali and Every single Ganesh Festival for over a decade now. What he has written certainly resonates with a lot of us!

p.s. reproducing the content from "Rocketsfan" who is a contributor on our forum too. But I will not disclose

I have a hunch, contributor's screen name has 8 letters.

[TeddyKoochu]

gc_vbin,
Good post, no wonder why i140 and EB1/EB2ROW pending inventory doubled in the last year.

Few bullets to note from the above news letter...

"First, they now seem to be issuing RFEs on the "ability to pay" issue for every employer that has filed multiple I-140s in the past".
......
......
"Second, they are questioning the qualifications of any beneficiary who has a three year undergraduate degree. It doesn't matter that the employee may have a U.S. master's degree or even PhD, if he or she has a three year undergraduate degree, the USCIS is going to challenge the validity of all higher degrees for the same person".
.......
.......
"Third, the service centers have finally decided to try to apply the illegitimate "employer-employee" memo standards to I-140 petitions for consulting companies".
.......
.......

Veni thanks for posting. I believe that 1 out of 3 such cases may eventually face a denial that is precisely the reason why we are seeing huge spillover this year. Also it is important for everyone who intends to change jobs to make note that even though in the past labor and 140 was approved it may not be the same again especially if you fall in any of the groups that you mentioned above. Many employers were pushing people who were about to complete 6 years to EB3 saying that its safer to get the extension also may not find it that easy. Also another thought I believe someone had posted that his colleagues got speedy approvals for 140, the straight cases are still being approved fast it is where they are issuing well researched RFE's are taking longer and many will see denials. With this said I believe even next year thee may not be that much of EB2 ROW and EB1 backlog to truly approve as is being projected in the worst case scenarios because denials will rise steeply, unfortunately no good way to calculate or quantify these.

[velugc]

my edu is 3 + 3... and 140 cleared... going though the post seems like there is more RFE & denials in 140 because of 3 + 3 edu... my question is once 140 is cleared would 3 + 3 edu cause any issues in 485? i hope there is no educational evaluation in 485... but just want to make sure...

[TeddyKoochu]

my edu is 3 + 3... and 140 cleared... going though the post seems like there is more RFE & denials in 140 because of 3 + 3 edu... my question is once 140 is cleared would 3 + 3 edu cause any issues in 485? i hope there is no educational evaluation in 485... but just want to make sure...

Normally for 485 they should not re-evaluate I140 I think otherwise if we apply all the guidelines that Veni (Ron newsletter) has posted more than 50% people are in trouble.
I believe you have an MCA what was the requirement in the labor was it Masters + X years of exp or bachelors + (X+5) years. I believe of it was the bachelors case your are absolutely safe. Typically B.Tech / BE and MCA are equivalent, I have read about some cases wherein the MCA was evaluated equal to MS from USA I don't think those cases can pass by now.

[qesehmk]

Spec, US high school graduates may be sub-par. But the graduate degree over here is quite competent. This is what Akio Morita (ex chief / founder Sony Corporation) said about US vs Japanese universities - It is very difficult to get into a Japanese University but very easy to get your degree. US universities on the other hand are very easy to be admitted into but then one has to earn the degree hard way. I think the same is true about US vs Indian universities.

US seems stupid sometimes but they need to keep things stupid because this country is quite egalitarian. Other countries resort to elitism in education (emphasis on IITs e.g. in India) whereas US goes by common sense and what works. And so while the degree may take a year more ... does produce a quite capable individual.

p.s. - But of course USCIS' basis for RFEs is probably quantitative rather than qualitative. Don/t deny that.

I agree that USCIS have "invented" their own definitions regarding equivalence to a US Baccalaureate.

In many ways, it not a "3 Year Degree" problem but maybe one of total years of education.

I would argue that the US system has to be a 4 year program simply because the education system turns out high school graduates with such poor skills that they need an additional year's worth of general education to attain the level required for a Bachelors Degree.

Virtually all of European education comes under the Bologna Accord (or Process or Declaration) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_Process where Bachelors are 3 year degrees. That has always been the model for some European Countries such as the UK.

One has to assume that these degrees are accepted by USCIS (although I think most European Countries have a year extra Secondary Education before proceeding to University studies), since a 4 year Baccalaureate course is not available to most people in Europe.

The following links discuss the Bologna degree system and how it is accepted by the USA. Most are rather old and I suspect all Bologna Degrees are accepted these days (at least from the major European Countries).

http://www.wes.org/ewenr/04march/feature.htm
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/11/06/bologna
http://www.wes.org/educators/pdf/BolognaPacket.pdf

Some interesting quotes from this document http://www.cgsnet.org/portals/0/pdf/mtg_am06scott.pdf



I think that the Indian Government could have been much more pro-active in tackling this issue (perhaps even by signing up to the Bologna Accord as Australia appears to have done - it is not an EU initiative).

my edu is 3 + 3... and 140 cleared... going though the post seems like there is more RFE & denials in 140 because of 3 + 3 edu... my question is once 140 is cleared would 3 + 3 edu cause any issues in 485? i hope there is no educational evaluation in 485... but just want to make sure...

I think they may look at it. But if you already filed 3-4 years back ... then you shouldnt be worried as this is a reasonably recent issues in last 1 year or so.

But this wait has done some irreversible damage.

Donbhai ...take care and take it easy. Since you engaged in some shayari ... i would recommend a sher from galib - "Na tha kuch to khuda tha. Na hota kuch to bhee khuda hota. Duboya mujhako honene. Na hota mein to kya hota.". Probably most of people after getting GC do think that it has caused some irreversible damage.

[Spectator]

Spec, US high school graduates may be sub-par. But the graduate degree over here is quite competent. This is what Akio Morita (ex chief / founder Sony Corporation) said about US vs Japanese universities - It is very difficult to get into a Japanese University but very easy to get your degree. US universities on the other hand are very easy to be admitted into but then one has to earn the degree hard way. I think the same is true about US vs Indian universities.

Q,

Sorry if you misunderstood - I totally agree. My comment was not about the value or quality of the US graduate degree.

I was pointing out that the US Baccalaureate needs to be 4 years to correct the potential deficiencies of those leaving high school.

My point was more towards total education needed to achieve a Bachelors degree in different Countries and the USCIS interpretation.

To graduate from College in US would be 10+2+4 = 16
To graduate from University in Europe would be 11+2+3 = 16
To graduate from University in India could be 10+2+3 = 15

So, I wonder if this is the real problem, not a 3 year degree per se, and that is why the AACRAO EDGE database that USCIS uses does not equate 3 year Indian Bachelors to a US Bachelors.

Just thinking out loud really and trying to understand the USCIS thought process.

I've never understood USCIS attitude to "single source" degrees and why a 1 year PG cannot be considered, as long as it is enhancing the education. It always seems a bit of a "not invented here" mentality.

What if there was a one year course prior to completing the 3 years Bachelors? That would make it 16 years total. I don't see how that is any different to completing 16 years in a slightly different manner, if that is what it takes.

Frankly, the educational achievement should be the determining factor, not how many years it took to achieve. Unfortunately, USCIS seem fixated on the latter and it can only really be changed by Congress informing them that it was not their intent. Fat chance of that happening!

Just venting!

[veni001]

Q,

Sorry if you misunderstood - I totally agree. My comment was not about the value or quality of the US graduate degree.

I was pointing out that the US Baccalaureate needs to be 4 years to correct the potential deficiencies of those leaving high school.

My point was more towards total education needed to achieve a Bachelors degree in different Countries and the USCIS interpretation.

To graduate from College in US would be 10+2+4 = 16
To graduate from University in Europe would be 11+2+3 = 16
To graduate from University in India could be 10+2+3 = 15

So, I wonder if this is the real problem, not a 3 year degree per se, and that is why the AACRAO EDGE database that USCIS uses does not equate 3 year Indian Bachelors to a US Bachelors.

Just thinking out loud really and trying to understand the USCIS thought process.

I've never understood USCIS attitude to "single source" degrees and why a 1 year PG cannot be considered, as long as it is enhancing the education. It always seems a bit of a "not invented here" mentality.

What if there was a one year course prior to completing the 3 years Bachelors? That would make it 16 years total. I don't see how that is any different to completing 16 years in a slightly different manner, if that is what it takes.

Frankly, the educational achievement should be the determining factor, not how many years it took to achieve. Unfortunately, USCIS seem fixated on the latter and it can only really be changed by Congress informing them that it was not their intent. Fat chance of that happening!

Just venting!

Spec,
You are correct, 10+2+3 is the main reason for USCIS questioning the validity.
Even to get admission into Graduate Program in accredited US schools 16 years of education is required. So 10+3+3 suffice that requirement and 10+2+3 need to enroll in pre-requisites courses to fulfill 16 year education requirement.

Most of the 10+2+3 cases tray to include non accredited certifications(Ex: NIIT,APTECH...etc) to fulfill 16 year education requirement, and that's where i believe USCIS raising red-flag!.

[nishant2200]

suninphx, grnwtg, and all, thanks.

I know I am not the only one or anything special, many have their own stories, reasons, and needs. I got sentimental. Since days, this is all I have been thinking about. Dreaming, wishing, justifying with my own analysis to myelf, self -talking, about date being current in next bulletin.

The discussion about educational equivalency. I think there are certain services which USCIS may provide.

1. Determine Educational Equivalency

2. Certified Translation of foreign documents

They can make a small sibling agency or institution to provide these services, and charge applicants for that, and earn revenue. And since it's their own agency, they can trust the evaluation.

I also am on same page as Q about bachelors education in US. Both India and US are vastly different countries, different demographics, different seeds of culture, and has led to quite different education systems. The number 1 above should resolve any problems for educational equivalency determination.

I have a 4 years engineering degree from India, and two masters degrees in engineering in US, wish they would put me in EB1.5 if there was such category

For the shape of dreams for all of you to come, this is my own poem, dedicated to all of you, your dreams, may you all get current!

Sapnon ka aakar
-------------------------

baitha tha kabhi, taaron ke neeche,
soch raha tha, lamhon ke kitne prakar,
kitni saari yaadein, kitne saare kaam,
itne saare sapne, kaise karun saakar

durr kahin brahmand mein, kisi aur prithvi par,
tim-timate honge sapne, jaise atma ke alankar,
aaj mein yahan hun, kal mei wahan hun,
bheegi si hai hawa, hai jane kis sparsh ka intezaar

zindagi ka maqsad, upparwale ki disha,
phir kahin se aayi, ek anhoni si pukar,
muskarahaton ko jeet, ho ja har khushi pe nishar,
apni hi kalam se bana, tere sapnon ka aakar...

[qesehmk]

Hey Spec

No need to be sorry. Its just discussion. You are right they are looking at single source 16 years!! The reason USCIS probably insists on single source is because they don't want to be in teh business to establish equivalence of different combinations of years spent in different schools/colleges.

But then I think that is exactly the reason why they should stop sending RFEs to people who already have MS in US where the US university accepted the undergrad requirements based on Indian degree! But as many of us feel, sometimes these RFEs appear quite driven by some underlying objective that USCIS or DoS are trying to drive. But hey if they clear the backlog through Aug 2007 this year ... we all will give them 2 thumbs up!

Q,

Sorry if you misunderstood - I totally agree. My comment was not about the value or quality of the US graduate degree.

I was pointing out that the US Baccalaureate needs to be 4 years to correct the potential deficiencies of those leaving high school.

My point was more towards total education needed to achieve a Bachelors degree in different Countries and the USCIS interpretation.

To graduate from College in US would be 10+2+4 = 16
To graduate from University in Europe would be 11+2+3 = 16
To graduate from University in India could be 10+2+3 = 15

So, I wonder if this is the real problem, not a 3 year degree per se, and that is why the AACRAO EDGE database that USCIS uses does not equate 3 year Indian Bachelors to a US Bachelors.

Just thinking out loud really and trying to understand the USCIS thought process.

I've never understood USCIS attitude to "single source" degrees and why a 1 year PG cannot be considered, as long as it is enhancing the education. It always seems a bit of a "not invented here" mentality.

What if there was a one year course prior to completing the 3 years Bachelors? That would make it 16 years total. I don't see how that is any different to completing 16 years in a slightly different manner, if that is what it takes.

Frankly, the educational achievement should be the determining factor, not how many years it took to achieve. Unfortunately, USCIS seem fixated on the latter and it can only really be changed by Congress informing them that it was not their intent. Fat chance of that happening!

Just venting!

Kya baat hai! Beautiful! If you are ok we will copy this to the poems section.

For the shape of dreams for all of you to come, this is my own poem, dedicated to all of you, your dreams, may you all get current!

Sapnon ka aakar
-------------------------

baitha tha kabhi, taaron ke neeche,
soch raha tha, lamhon ke kitne prakar,
kitni saari yaadein, kitne saare kaam,
itne saare sapne, kaise karun saakar

durr kahin brahmand mein, kisi aur prithvi par,
tim-timate honge sapne, jaise atma ke alankar,
aaj mein yahan hun, kal mei wahan hun,
bheegi si hai hawa, hai jane kis sparsh ka intezaar

zindagi ka maqsad, upparwale ki disha,
phir kahin se aayi, ek anhoni si pukar,
muskarahaton ko jeet, ho ja har khushi pe nishar,
apni hi kalam se bana, tere sapnon ka aakar...

[nishant2200]

Sure Q, please move

[Spectator]

But then I think that is exactly the reason why they should stop sending RFEs to people who already have MS in US where the US university accepted the undergrad requirements based on Indian degree!

Q,

I absolutely agree.

There is no basis in law for such an RFE. The law only requires an advanced degree granted by, or equivalent to one from, an accredited US Institution of Higher Education. There is no mention of the underlying degree.

If the advanced degree was granted by a US University, that should be the end of it.

I think Ron Gotcher is correct. If this trend persists, USCIS will eventually be taken to court over the issue and they will lose. Unfortunately, when challenged, USCIS always relent, so the case never gets that far and the practice can continue.

It appears to be a mean spirited attempt by USCIS to either delay the case or make it as painful, time consuming and expensive as possible for the applicant.

I hope the Ombudsman will mention it in his next report.

My last on the subject of education.

Feel free to move it to the existing thread on the subject http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showth...ons-Discussion

[tnayar78]

Back to predictions:

Aug - Aug 1, 2007
Sep - Jul 15, 2008
Oct - Jul 15, 2008
Nov - Oct 8, 2007