Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[chengisk]

The Lamar Smith bill's text has been released. It is very similar to the Lofgren bill, but no spillover. However, it allows people who already have a degree and an approved labor cert. to "port" without a new labor cert.

Got a link to it? Please.

[chengisk]

Found it,

http://thehill.com/images/stories/bl.../smithstem.pdf

[gs1968]

This morning's update to read with your coffee

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-va...ed-immigration

The timing of the Bill's vote on the House Floor will give us a better idea about where this is headed. My feeling is that the Democrats in the House will let it pass and leave the Senate where they control the agenda handle it. If the House Floor votes on it on Thursday it will be received in the Senate on Friday (if Senate is still in session). Then we will know before the recess if this is headed to the Senate Judiciary Committee or going to the Calendar directly. If the vote on this Bill is postponed to Friday due to the backlog from Wednesday in the House (there are greater than 20 bills to be voted on on Wednesday) then the fate of the Bill hangs in suspense till the lame duck session in November. My feeling is that the Republicans in the Senate will object to Committee assignment and ask that it be placed on the calendar directly. I think the WH is against abolishing the DV and this pressure could influence either the adoption or amendment of this Bill

[rupen86]

This morning's update to read with your coffee

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-va...ed-immigration

The timing of the Bill's vote on the House Floor will give us a better idea about where this is headed. My feeling is that the Democrats in the House will let it pass and leave the Senate where they control the agenda handle it. If the House Floor votes on it on Thursday it will be received in the Senate on Friday (if Senate is still in session). Then we will know before the recess if this is headed to the Senate Judiciary Committee or going to the Calendar directly. If the vote on this Bill is postponed to Friday due to the backlog from Wednesday in the House (there are greater than 20 bills to be voted on on Wednesday) then the fate of the Bill hangs in suspense till the lame duck session in November. My feeling is that the Republicans in the Senate will object to Committee assignment and ask that it be placed on the calendar directly. I think the WH is against abolishing the DV and this pressure could influence either the adoption or amendment of this Bill

This article again points the facts that the other article had pointed that both parties could not reach agreement and introducing their own bill. Since Republicans control the house, that is the bill that is going to move forward. Democrats are unlikely to support that given white house and their own objection to end DV program. Even if some democrats end up supporting this bill and it passes house, it is not going anywhere in senate where Grassley, Schumer will be the road block to the bill. The timing of the bill suggests that it is political posturing that they are interested in rather than passing it.

[gs1968]

Another news source

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...cial-treatment

[abcx13]

I don't understand how Democrats can hold up a DV for STEM replacement. This is ludicrous. Since replacement is the only option on the table, they should just pass the damn thing. 50k US educated STEM MS >> 50k DV anyday regardless of the bullshit 'diversity' they want to preserve. There is enough diversity in this country and 50k out of ~1M legal immigrants really doesn't move the needle. I really wish this passes in the House and the Republicans lampoon the Democrats over this. And I would imagine XXXXX Grassley would support it too since it gets rid of DV which he has long advocated for. And Lamar Smith has more seniority than Chaffetz so that'll be another positive factor.

[immitime]

There can be millions of reports on STEM bill. Democrats will block that in the Senate.. they do not want DV lottery eliminated.. And the only bill before December have a chance to become law is H.R. 3012. There is no point wasting time talking about STEM.

[gs1968]

From last night on POLITICO-no new information here but mainstream media reporting is scarce on this subject

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...277.html?hp=r5

[pakkpk]

I totally agree with you. Rather than wasting time call your Senators this week in support of H.R. 3012. This bill will pass. Here is the phone number. The U.S. Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121. A switchboard operator will connect you directly with the Senate office you request. Staff will answer the phone, state your name and where you live with zip code. Then state that "I am calling to voice my support for H.R. 3012.I want to request Senator to support and pass H.R. 3012 bill in Senate as soon as possible. Thank you.

There can be millions of reports on STEM bill. Democrats will block that in the Senate.. they do not want DV lottery eliminated.. And the only bill before December have a chance to become law is H.R. 3012. There is no point wasting time talking about STEM.

[rupen86]

Immigration is at least beginning to pop up in the run up to the election.

http://news.yahoo.com/romney-pledge-...-business.html

[immitime]

I totally agree with you. Rather than wasting time call your Senators this week in support of H.R. 3012. This bill will pass. Here is the phone number. The U.S. Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121. A switchboard operator will connect you directly with the Senate office you request. Staff will answer the phone, state your name and where you live with zip code. Then state that "I am calling to voice my support for H.R. 3012.I want to request Senator to support and pass H.R. 3012 bill in Senate as soon as possible. Thank you.

I understand your frustration and sarcasm!. Calling the Senators and making sure they support is only 15 %, if just by calling Senators, or sending emails to them, alone a bill passes, then by this time, H.R.3012 would have become law there are other under currents in a legislative process. H.R.3012 is the bill already passed the congress and waiting for the legislation on senate calendar. STEM bill at the same time is still a proposal, not even passed congress!.

[immitime]

I completely disagree. We can continue with the efforts on HR 3012, but there is absolutely nothing wrong to push for the STEM bill. STEM bill looks more probable than HR 3012 anyway, because it won't have any opposition from the ROW, and any Senator attempting to block it will have to explain the uncomfortable question of "why let in 55K random people versus preferring 55K US educated STEM masters/PhDs". The US Universities are a stakeholder in the STEM bill and would have a greater influence. The technology sector will also be squarely behind the STEM bill.

I understand that HR 3012 is **'s prime action item and kudos to them for the progress on the bill, but we need to seek what's best for EB-I folks, and the STEM bill is looking promising. If it passes the House, it will be exactly where the HR3012 is at right now.

Sports,

Democrats are against any Legal immigration bills, the moment we say Legal immigration fix, they will connect CIR with that, (because no VOTES! these are all election politics) and they won't sacrifice DV lottery for our Legal immigration, no issues with STEM bill as such, but only thing I pointed out is, it may not go anywhere.

[pakkpk]

I understand your frustration and sarcasm!. Calling the Senators and making sure they support is only 15 %, if just by calling Senators, or sending emails to them, alone a bill passes, then by this time, H.R.3012 would have become law there are other under currents in a legislative process. H.R.3012 is the bill already passed the congress and waiting for the legislation on senate calendar. STEM bill at the same time is still a proposal, not even passed congress!.

I would be rather in that 15% (calling to Senators) than just reading news by clicking the links provided here or reading fake analysis provided with hidden agendas.

[pakkpk]

Read between the lines: "Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.), who has talked to Smith about the issue, said he supports boosting STEM visas without reducing visas elsewhere."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz26k4dvpGt

I completely disagree. We can continue with the efforts on HR 3012, but there is absolutely nothing wrong to push for the STEM bill. STEM bill looks more probable than HR 3012 anyway, because it won't have any opposition from the ROW, and any Senator attempting to block it will have to explain the uncomfortable question of "why let in 55K random people versus preferring 55K US educated STEM masters/PhDs". The US Universities are a stakeholder in the STEM bill and would have a greater influence. The technology sector will also be squarely behind the STEM bill.

I understand that HR 3012 is **'s prime action item and kudos to them for the progress on the bill, but we need to seek what's best for EB-I folks, and the STEM bill is looking promising. If it passes the House, it will be exactly where the HR3012 is at right now.

[abcx13]

I think things could get very interesting if this passes the House as expected and Republicans win the Senate (though I guess they won't be in office for the lame duck session). I won't rule out the STEM bill completely yet, even if the chances don't seem great for the Democrats caving in (probably less than 50%). It is an election year and if Republicans get aggressive about 50k DV vs. US educated STEM MS, there might be some pressure on the Democrats.

[gs1968]

I don't understand how Democrats can hold up a DV for STEM replacement. This is ludicrous. Since replacement is the only option on the table, they should just pass the damn thing. 50k US educated STEM MS >> 50k DV anyday regardless of the bullshit 'diversity' they want to preserve. There is enough diversity in this country and 50k out of ~1M legal immigrants really doesn't move the needle. I really wish this passes in the House and the Republicans lampoon the Democrats over this. And I would imagine XXXXX Grassley would support it too since it gets rid of DV which he has long advocated for. And Lamar Smith has more seniority than Chaffetz so that'll be another positive factor.

Why is replacement the only option and not addition? Which of the 2 parties is insisting on this?
You do realize that the Republicans need Democratic support at both levels first in the House to get the 2/3 majority and then in the Senate to even bring it to the Floor. Why not incorporate some Democratic ideas to ensure better chances of success?
If the Republicans say no they are perceived as uncompromising on their principles but if the Democrats say no they are perceived as obstructionist.

[cool_mj007]

Please join the live webcast @ Brookings Institute on 27th. Also remember to share out your thoughts via #TechCTI.
http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012...stem-education

[abcx13]

Why is replacement the only option and not addition? Which of the 2 parties is insisting on this? You do realize that the Republicans need Democratic support at both levels first in the House to get the 2/3 majority and then in the Senate to even bring it to the Floor. Why not incorporate some Democratic ideas to ensure better chances of success? If the Republicans say no they are perceived as uncompromising on their principles but if the Democrats say no they are perceived as obstructionist.

It's the only option because it's the only bill that will be put for a vote. The republicans will not vote on Lofgren's bill. I realize Republicans need some Democratic support, but I feel they can get it at least in the House. Probably not in the Senate.

This is not about uncompromising vs. obstructionist. This is about the DV being a stupid idea from the get go and a sop for the Irish. If you apply any sort of utilitarian calculus, given a fixed immigration quota, it will ALWAYS make sense to swap the DV for STEM MS. So the Democrats are being obstructionist and stupid. Even if you add 50k STEM visas without axing DV, the question is whether America really needs DV. And it's even less clear whether those people aren't a leech on the taxpayer unlike STEM immigrants who are net gains to the economy (maybe not bodyshoppers but the intended recipients of the STEM visa).

[rupen86]

It's the only option because it's the only bill that will be put for a vote. The republicans will not vote on Lofgren's bill. I realize Republicans need some Democratic support, but I feel they can get it at least in the House. Probably not in the Senate.

This is not about uncompromising vs. obstructionist. This is about the DV being a stupid idea from the get go and a sop for the Irish. If you apply any sort of utilitarian calculus, given a fixed immigration quota, it will ALWAYS make sense to swap the DV for STEM MS. So the Democrats are being obstructionist and stupid. Even if you add 50k STEM visas without axing DV, the question is whether America really needs DV. And it's even less clear whether those people aren't a leech on the taxpayer unlike STEM immigrants who are net gains to the economy (maybe not bodyshoppers but the intended recipients of the STEM visa).

Which voting constituency of democrats would be affected if they vote for ending the DV ?

[iamdeb]

There could be amendments. For example:

1. Do not eliminate DV completely, but reduce it to 35K and use the 20K for EB STEM visas.
2. Create a new category in EB and apply all spillover from EB1/4/5 first to that new category. Plenty of EB2 and EB3 folks could qualify. This new category should work irrespective of countries and by PDs only. So, the first people who would be helped would be in EB3-I who qualify for the STEM. See? Instead of spillovers going exclusively for EB2-I, EB3-I would get some spillover from STEM too. So, HR 3012 is not the only bill that can help.

I have always maintained my admiration for ** despite the criticism it attracts. I will always support HR 3012. But I will also support STEM. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bills that could help us.

How does it help EB3-I?
In order to qualify for the STEM, you need Masters Degree from USA.
EB3 people anyways don't satisfy that criteria.

[rupen86]

How does it help EB3-I?
In order to qualify for the STEM, you need Masters Degree from USA.
EB3 people anyways don't satisfy that criteria.

I do not know how it benefits EB1 also because it is CURRENT anyway.

[vishnu]

agreed rupen - i think when ppl think STEM bills, they think a GC automatically stapled, so no need for a job etc... in this case, a job is required along with the need to file perm etc. still not easy in this environment. a large chunk of those 50k STEM GC's will not be used!

[immitime]

There could be amendments. For example:

1. Do not eliminate DV completely, but reduce it to 35K and use the 20K for EB STEM visas.
2. Create a new category in EB and apply all spillover from EB1/4/5 first to that new category. Plenty of EB2 and EB3 folks could qualify. This new category should work irrespective of countries and by PDs only. So, the first people who would be helped would be in EB3-I who qualify for the STEM. See? Instead of spillovers going exclusively for EB2-I, EB3-I would get some spillover from STEM too. So, HR 3012 is not the only bill that can help.

I have always maintained my admiration for ** despite the criticism it attracts. I will always support HR 3012. But I will also support STEM. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bills that could help us.

There could be or would be... is only just expectation. Think about the journey of H.R.3012 its almost an year! after passing congress.. I don't deny the chances of STEM, but less hope

[gs1968]

To abcx13
I was merely implying that there has to be negotiation and consensus before bringing a Bill to the Floor to maximize chances of success. The limits set by the IMMACT 1990 which also created the EB categories and the dual intent H-1B visa were applicable to the population of America then which was 248 million.There are 313 million people in the country now and an increase of 55,000 will hardly move the needle.If the republicans were serious, they could always make this argument to their base. I am a physicain and extremely pro-immigrant. My only wish is for the USA not to suffer the same effects of negative growth that Europe is grappling with now. The total fertility rate in this country has fallen below replacement levels in the last 2 years and we need as many immigrants as possible to sustain the growth rate. The 2 contributors to population growth at this time are immigration and population momentum (the increase in population due to increasing numbers of women in child-bearing age due to previous high birth rates). This would be a perfect opportunity to increase immigration albeit by a measly 5%

Below is an interesting link to the negotiations behind the original diversity Program if you are interested in history

https://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/TheD...isaProgram.pdf

Immigration should be in national interest and not driven by special interests. Every immigrant to this country lays seeds for the future and even though some DV immigrants may not have MS/Phd - it may merely reflect a lack of opportunity rather than ability and their children given the chance in this country may be the shining stars of the future.

[rupen86]

agreed rupen - i think when ppl think STEM bills, they think a GC automatically stapled, so no need for a job etc... in this case, a job is required along with the need to file perm etc. still not easy in this environment. a large chunk of those 50k STEM GC's will not be used!

if it is not used, it will help EB2 in using spillover. But I do not see this helping EB3.