Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[imdeng]

This is far from true. The bill can still pass without him - but it will take a long time. I do believe though that he will be persuaded to remove his hold in the coming days considering it is a republican bill with bi-partisan support.

One thing for sure: Without Grassley, there is no bill.

[narendarrao]

This is from http://immigration-law.com

12/01/2011: House Immigration Subcommittee Takes Up Elimination of Visa Waiver Program Issue

On 12/07/2011, the Subcommittee will hold a hearing on "Visa Waiver Program Oversight: Risks and Benefits of the Program." As we reported earlier, the Visa Waiver Program has been under attacks by several House members, primarily Republicans. The hearing will give their agenda a momentum to move ahead with the legislative agenda. Please stay tuned.

May be they will take it up after this discussion.

[helpful_leo]

This is far from true. The bill can still pass without him - but it will take a long time. I do believe though that he will be persuaded to remove his hold in the coming days considering it is a republican bill with bi-partisan support.

Does anybody want to take a stab at crafting a letter to Grassley - a balanced mix of justified emotions, American values and solid facts, like the current petition - written in a way that is consistent with his previous positions (anti-immigration fraud, limited immigration, etc ...if you like, throw in other good stuff- family values, anti- abortion ; )

Maybe you could even start as - "I am an Indian / Chinese IT worker and a direct beneficiary of some of your previous actions in confronting individuals and companies engaged in immigration / H1B fraud. ....There are many others in my circle of friends who are grateful to you for cleaning up a signifant segment of the IT consulting business by your legislative initiatives...blah, blah" and then come to HR 3012.

I know some of you think he is a goner...but I think there is little harm in inundating him with these reasonable sounding, non-confrontational letters. Who knows, it might soften him up just a little bit to be more receptive to his other Senator colleagues. At worst, we may be able to just register as a counterpoint to all the thank you / adulatory letters his staff is getting from the anti-FIFOers.

What say?

[tendlya]

Signed. Here is one good supporting article on HR-3012.
http://hr3012.wordpress.com/

(Posting in the main thread as well for increased visibility)

Folks - I have created a petition that will send emails (for free) as well as printed letters (for a fee) to your respective senators.

http://www.petition2congress.com/566...rants-hr-3012/

This is a variant of the **'s petition - I have taken their content and edited it and included some thoughts of my own. To me, it reads better than the ** petition. I would urge you to spend the $9 it takes to send a printed version of the letter to the Senators - it definitely has more impact than just an email.

The link allows you to edit the petition before sending if you so wish. If you are making changes, then please share them with me so that I can collate the useful changes and edit the original petition with them.

[gcq]

- Yes, technically the bill can pass without him. If the Republicans really want to show they are doing something for the immigrants (after the Alabama/Arizona disasters), they can sidestep Grassley. The 60+ votes in the Senate are not a problem in my view. And Grassley's filibuster threats are most likely empty.

- I honestly do not think we can do anything to reason with Grassley. Firstly, we don't know what his true intentions are. Secondly, it is reported that Chaffetz/Lee/Rubio trio are going to "educate" him. Whatever is going to happen will be behind the scenes. This has got nothing to do with logic/reason. Absolutely dirty politics is at play here.

My 2 cents. I may be wrong, so please do what you feel is right, and I will generally support all action items listed here.

Again we are trying to split to appease an anti-immigrant senator. There is nothing wrong with consulting business. Whatever USCIS is doing is illegal in reference to consulting business. Democratic majority in the congress ( read union supporters) gave these anti-immigrants an opportunity to take a stab at consulting companies. Grassley was not just against consulting companies. He was against Microsoft too. He is basically against anything that is not corn related.

You can never get Grassley on your side. We can only get over him. ** has tried this with Grassley a lot. Never worked. He is an anti-immigrant. In fact he doesn't like non-europeans in this country.

[helpful_leo]

I know the bill can pass without Grassley, and is likely also filibuster-proof.

The question is - is the bill politically compelling enough to the other Senators to invoke all the complicated processes necessary to release the hold and make it filibuster-proof (cloture and related processes)? I am not sure- my bias is it is not!

It is clearly compelling enough to Grassley, so that he is engaging in this drama.

What drives that? Funding? Lobbies? Personal bias / values? Misinformation? Incomplete information? Likely, he just likes being an ass in general!

Since, numbersUSA and similar orgs have not taken a position on this, I do not think the anti-immigrant lobby is very much invested in this. Plus, if anything, this is a Republican bill. So I think the usual drivers of anti-immigrant activity / funding are not involved here.

It probably is - I am speculating here - a combination of personal eccentricity, visceral reaction to H1B related stuff and partial information. Like they say, never attribute to malice what can be....

Problem is, with all the letters and visits from individuals and "national organizations" that he is getting on HR 3012, he may unintentionally get drafted into this new mission - of preserving the diversity of immigrants, and such hocus-pocus. That is, if we allow that narrative to go unchallenged and do not provide a counterpoint.

Of course, I may just be being terribly naive and/or speculative here..

[gcq]

leo,
There is a Grassley equivalent in House, Steve King. Typically he alone could have sabotaged our bill. Not sure whether you noticed his amendments. In 2008 he as successful in preventing our recapture bill being taken up in judiciary committee by unlimited debate on the bill before that. It was the last days of the 111th congress. Though our bill was scheduled for that week, it never came up for a discussion.

This time none of his tricks worked because there was unified support from both democrats and republicans. Probably the same thing is going to happen in Senate after grassley's "look at me" drama.

We should do our part mailing/contacting and visiting senator's office.

[qesehmk]

Manubhai.

My experience is - the best way to do this on a forum is to open a thread and use the first post as the master. Next time you can try that.

q, helpful_leo - Please remove the old quoted text from your messages so that folks don't copy that version by mistake if they decide to post it outside of imdeng's petition.

Updated version is here.

Thanks!

[tendlya]

I think this explanation is excellent to persuade someone like Grassley to support 3012. We should spread this kind of explanation more.

I agree with you. I was just replying to this Rural Iowa Argument that someone posted. But I just wanted to make people aware that Indian and Chinese Physicians are also severely suffering from EB2 backlogs (they are not in EB3) and IT is not the only sector suffering. We are not as big group as IT Professionals from India and China but our number is significant to get noticed. And we all are with you supporting you in this quest for fairness.

Just like you all, the Indian and Chinese Physicians have also been hindered from growing because of this backlog.

We can not accept promotions in bigger and better hospitals. (I had to refuse 4 promotional offers in last 6 months with bigger and better salaries because I can't change an employer at this point)

Medical Fellowships (sub-specialization) are extremely hard to get in to on H1B because fellowship programs in US hospitals are funded by NIH and Medicare and prefer to take US Citizens and GC holders only.

You can get a fellowship on H1B but you have to have publications and strong recommendation letters from University Hospital Faculty Physicians.

But here is a vicious cycle. If you are an Indian physician on H1B, most likely you will end up in a rural area. --> If you are working in a rural area, mostly it will be a smaller hospital. --> You don't have a chance to do any research or publish any paper in a smaller hospital. --> You are not in contact with any University Faculty so forget about recommendation letters also. --> No research, no publications, no strong recommendation letters + longer time spent away from academic activity after graduation (MD) = No Fellowships/Very Tough to get.

Just to give you a simple example, in my program there were 23 resident doctors who were doing MD.

10 Indians, 4 Pakistanis, 2 Nepalese, 1 Nigerian, 1 Algerian, 1 Russian, 1 South Korean, 1 Philippino, 1 Syrian, 1 Iranian.

Out of those 23, except 10 Indians, everyone got their GCs in 6 months.

Out of those 10 Indian doctors, 9 came on student visa (including me) and have an additional Masters degree from a US University along with MD. Those 9 converted from F1 to H1B.

1 Indian doctor was on Research J1 and was doing research for 5 years in Cleveland Clinic.

1 Nigerian and 1 Nepalese doctor came on GC via GC lottery.

Rest of the doctors came here on visitor visas, gave their exams, did interviews and went back. When they secured residency positions, they all came back on H1B.

Now, here is an interesting fact. No medical residency program in US (except 2 programs out of more than 6000) will sponsor green cards because they know that we will finish our training after 3 years and leave so everyone does their residency on H1B only. Physician GCs are filed in 4th year of H1B only. (We all waste our first 3 years of H1B)

So all 21 people did their residency on H1B. (2 were already on GC via GC lottery).

Right now, all 9 Indian doctors are working as a primary care or hospitalists in small towns.

The ROW doctors have moved to fellowships or taken promotions after getting their GCs and none of them have published more than 1 paper and mostly have not published at all.

Algerian doctor - Echo Fellowship and Heart Failure Fellowship
Iranian doctor - Palliative and Hematology-Oncology Fellowship
South Korean Doctor - Nephrology Fellowship
Syrian Doctor - Nephrology Fellowship
Philippino Doctor - Endocrinology Fellowship
Russian Doctor - Pain Management Fellowship
Nigerian Doctor - Cardiology Fellowship
Pakistani Doctors (All 4) - Infectious Disease, Gastroenterology, Rheumatology, Pulmonary-Critical Care Fellowships
Nepalese Doctors (All 2) - Infectious Disease, Pulmonary-Critical Care Fellowships.
Indian Doctor (One with 5 year research experience) - Endocrinology Fellowship (due to EB1A GC with 35 publications as first author)

My Indian colleague has 5 publications. He applied for Gastroenterology and had no interview calls. (Reason given - We don't sponsor H1Bs)
My Pakistani colleague has 2 publications. He applied for Gastroenterology with GC in hand and had 5 interview calls. He is doing his fellowship right now.

This is just an example of my residency program. Imagine there are so many.

Sounds similar to problems other professionals from India and China face also, isn't it?

Is this ROW call fairness?

[helpful_leo]

leo,
There is a Grassley equivalent in House, Steve King. Typically he alone could have sabotaged our bill. Not sure whether you noticed his amendments. In 2008 he as successful in preventing our recapture bill being taken up in judiciary committee by unlimited debate on the bill before that. It was the last days of the 111th congress. Though our bill was scheduled for that week, it never came up for a discussion.

This time none of his tricks worked because there was unified support from both democrats and republicans. Probably the same thing is going to happen in Senate after grassley's "look at me" drama.

We should do our part mailing/contacting and visiting senator's office.

Yes, I am aware of King and his antics.

The problem, however, is that the House and Senate protocols for bill passage are significantly different. At least that is my rudimentary understaning of how the process works. The Senate protocols are such that it favors consensus building and therefore the rules are constructed such that even if a small percentage of senators -or even a single Senator- disagrees with a motion / bill, he can potentially defeat it. Yes, there are workarounds, but they are cumbersome.

This is the reason Holds and filibusters only exist in the Senate and not in the House. If they had existed in the House, I doubt HR 3012 would have had the smooth passage that it did.

[imdeng]

Did you mean his twitter account? Its @jasoninthehouse - I just sent him a message thanking him for his leadership on #HR3012

Does anyone have Twitter account to thank Mr.Jason Chaffetz ?

[asankaran]

There is interesting discussion going in Grassley's facebook page. I would request like minded folks to chime in about this bill

[sarthi]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,

[manubhai]

Manubhai.

My experience is - the best way to do this on a forum is to open a thread and use the first post as the master. Next time you can try that.

Q - Done. Here is the new thread.

[manubhai]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,

Great job, Sarthi. Thanks for the effort.

[feedmyback]

Good work on the facebook Asankaran... I read all of your posts and they are neat!! Although one sincere advise. The Guy who you are arguing with on facebook is an idiot. You will understand that it is a waste of you time to really prolong dialog with him, once you read one of his posts that I picked on some other wall. Although he is giving a picture as if he is a US citizen and only wants it to be fair... In fact he is very selfish in his motives and this is what I found on face book from one of his posts on another person's wall who opposed HR3012.

"AND Yes this is a personal issuse for me My baby was or might get his green card in ten days but it take 6 month to the process before he actually will recieve his card. If at anytime during the 6 months they pass this law he and anyone not from india or china will be pushed back to close to 12 years. I am ON MY KNEES begging my family and friends to go to this link and OPPOSE this law!! it isnt right that he not get what he has earned and other that came after him get to cut in line and take this away from him and others to have to wait this long. it is INJUSTICE at it worst So igain I am on my knees and begging for your help.... thanks and please share this on your page..."

He is one selfish idiot trying to prolong a discussion. I guess it will be wise not to waste our energies talking to such selfish idiots. I am sure whatever you say he will just keep attacking you. My 2 cents....

asankaran good going in the facebook
I think some more face bookers can join hands with Arunachalam Sankaran here ....http://www.facebook.com/grassley

[abcx13]

There are at least three ppl on Grassley's FB praising him for putting a hold on HR 3012. Unfortunately, the two ppl against the hold are Indians. Guess which way the wind is blowing?

I don't think Grassley is an idiot. I think he understands full well what this bill is about and how it doesn't impact American jobs. But he either hates non-Whites (feel free to be more PC about it) or is playing politics. In either case, no amount of reasoning is going to convince him in my opinion.

[asankaran]

I agree, but I wanted to ensure that people like him are made to show themselves in poor light. Unfortunately these guys have started a smear campaign and we have to decently respond to it

Explain to your American friends and co-workers what this bill is about. If they are sympathetic to it at all, ask them to post a message on Grassley's FB wall. It won't take them much time.

I am going to start doing it. And asankaran - I agree with the others that you are wasting your time with the American poster there, who has made up his mind.

[rick94102]

As you know Immigration Voice is actively participating in promoting HR3012.

Immigration Voice was mentioned by Rep chafftez during the debate on the floor of house.

You are requested to visit www dot immigration voice (one word)dot ORG and send email to your respective senators.

They have also explained why it is important to send email through them.

[rick94102]

Manu bhai.....please go to www dot immigration voice (one word).org and send mail through them.They have explained why it is important to send mail through them.

[vizcard]

Anyone writing should address the key points of objection that Grassley raises.
1. It could pave the path for increased numbers
2. American jobs
3. Diversity.

Also, dont assume he knows the exact process and the specifics i.e. individual must hold a job thats approved by DOL and application must be approved by USCIS as well.

From a fairness angle, describe a hypothetical. Eg. I applied in 2008, still waiting. Someone (non-IC) applying in 2010 would get a GC before me .. even with same degree and less work experience.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,

Good work. I'd remove the link to the blog you are rebutting and refer to them as 'a blog opposing HR3012 that purports to represent all skilled immigrants'. You don't want to drive traffic their way.

[imdeng]

There is now a rival petition to OPPOSE HR-3012/S-1857:
They have 44 letters so far. We have 318.
Everyone - please be active - use Facebook, Twitter (#HR3012), Letters/Emails/Calls to your Senators - use **'s interface for it if you don't have a strong preference against it.

[kd2008]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,

H.R. 3012 Increase VISA numbers.

HR 3012 *****DOES NOT***** increase any numeric limit… It’s an effort to fix broken Employment based Immigration system and makes it first-come first-serve basis. Keep in mind that the people benefiting from it are already in US and employed by US companies LEGALLY.

This is a great effort! Thanks!

"H.R. 3012 Increase Visa Number" is plain bad grammar and misleading. Please make it rhetorical. "Does H.R. 3012 increase number of visas?"

Also please remember it is "visa" and not "VISA." VISA refers to the credit card processing company VISA. What we get at consulates is a "visa."

[Jonty Rhodes]

12/01/2011: H.R. 3012 in the Senate: Guess What - Halted For A While!

The Senate glossary reflects that hold means "an informal practice by which a Senator informs his or her floor leader that he or she does not wish a particular bill or other measure to reach the floor for consideration. The Majority Leader need not follow the Senator's wishes, but is on notice that the opposing Senator may filibuster any motion to proceed to consider the measure." It thus appears the action involves not his decision as the Ranking Member of Judiciary Committee but as a member of the Senate on the Senate floor. According to this definition, unless Senator Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader ignores Sen. Grassley's wish or Senator Grassley himself withdraw his wish, the bill cannot even reach the Judiciary Committee. Additionally, should the Majority Leader ignores his wish and entertain a motion to proceed, it is likely to result in "filibuster" by the Senator Grassley, and unless the filibuster can be broken by 60 or more votes out of total 100 Senators, the bill will be destined to fail. Without doubt, Senators's phone, fax, email, text messaging or other contracts by pro and con forces must be burning now.

Traditionally, employment-based piecemeal immigration reform has faced two hawks in the Senate. One is labor union-backer legislators and the other is anti-immigration legislators. The labor unions in this country have welcome guest workers in the farm and related industry because they help the union to expand its political power since such workers are unionized work forces but opposed the high tech professional workers that are not unionized work forces. Senator Dick Durbin, the Senate majority whip, and Senator Chuck Grassley have gained a reputation as the American Worker Protectionists. They have initated a numerous legislative bills to restrict H-1B and L-1B programs and oppose piece-meal employment based immigration reform. However, when it comes to legalization of undocumented aliens, Sen. Dick Durbin is at forefront to support Comprehensive Immigration Reform, particularly so-called DREAM Act for undocumented youngster, while Sen. Chuck Grassley opposes legalization of undocumented aliens and Comprehensive Immigration Reform. It will be interesting how Rep. Chaffetz of Utah and Sen. Mike Lee of Utah will be able to negotiate with Sen. Grassley to remove the first road block to the Senate consent to the bill, i.e. scheduling of the bill in the Judiciary Committee. Ranking member in a committee in the Congress is similar to a "co-chair" of the committee representing the minority (party) members of the committee in the House or the Senate. Since the Republican party is a minority group in the Senate, in the Senate committees, there are Republican Ranking Members and when it comes to a bill which is sponsored by the Republican party Senators, the Democrat Chairs of the Committees must work with the Ranking Members to schedule hearings and mark-ups for the bills which are sponsored by the minority party House Representatives in the House and the minority party Senators in the Senate. In the Republican House of Representatives, the Chair of Judiciary Committee is Rep. Lamar Smith (R) and Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D) is the Ranking Member. In the Democratic Senate, the Chair of Judiciary Committee is Sen. Leahy (D) and Ranking Member is Sen. Chuck Grassley (R). Accordingly when it comes to the immigration legislations, Senator Chuck Grassley has a powerful bite and unless the two legislators from Utah are successful to work with their own party Ranking Member in the Judiciary Committee in the Senate, this bill has a slim chance to see any activities before the end of the year. Please stay tuned.