Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[imdeng]

Very positive coverage by Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ists-view.html

Important/interesting bits:
The stupid hold by Grassley has not gone unnoticed:

After the House passed its legislation on Nov. 29, Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa, host of the upcoming caucuses, promptly placed a hold on the bill, which is expected to have broad support from his Senate colleagues.

A good economic argument for more EB GCs:

Only 15 percent of visas are granted for economic reasons, a policy that undermines U.S. companies competing in a global talent pool. Foreign students account for the majority of computer science and engineering doctorates earned from U.S. institutions. (In 2006, more than 4,500 foreign students earned engineering Ph.D.’s in the U.S., almost two-thirds of the total.) Yet there’s no policy to allow, let alone encourage, them to stay in the U.S. after graduation.

And finally, the awesome conclusion:

There is no reason a bill that passed the House by an overwhelming margin should be stymied in the Senate. For the health of the U.S. economy -- and perhaps for the health of Congress itself -- this eminently passable, aggressively unobjectionable, bipartisan legislation should be approved quickly.

[self.coach]

Imdeng both of us have PD in the same month...whats your date?

Very positive coverage by Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ists-view.html

Important/interesting bits:
The stupid hold by Grassley has not gone unnoticed:

A good economic argument for more EB GCs:

And finally, the awesome conclusion:

[imdeng]

7th Aug 2009 Self Coach. Its not a bad date - I avoid the nightmare 8th scenario :-)

Imdeng both of us have PD in the same month...whats your date?

[vizcard]

Very positive coverage by Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...ists-view.html

Important/interesting bits:
The stupid hold by Grassley has not gone unnoticed:

A good economic argument for more EB GCs:

And finally, the awesome conclusion:

This is absolutely a political move rather than genuine concern for American jobs. Someone needs to explain the GC process to him as I'm not sure if he knows how it works.

[Pedro Gonzales]

A review of Grassley's immigration related press releases http://www.grassley.senate.gov/issues/Immigration.cfm shows a focus on eliminating H1B / B1 / L1 fraud (which in itself is commendable) and perhaps restricting immigration in general (he is against STEM, against OPT and strict policing of all PERM applications). However, I do not see anything overtly racist or anti-India/China on his page. He does seem to have a strong opinion against Infosys on a lawsuit that they are involved in, and seems to think that Indian IT services companies use the H1B to gain expertise prior to outsourcing operations for their clients, all of which may taint his opinion of India on the whole, but I don't see much else of any relevance to HR3012.

In summary, I don't think his hold is the result of any opinions against the bill in itself, but only a ploy to get the administration or other legislators to agree to his longstanding demands for H1B fraud elimination (maybe as an amendment to this bill, but maybe even independently). We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

Here are some of the relevant press releases from Grassley's office.

http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/...eID_1502=36205
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/...eID_1502=34705
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/...eID_1502=33437
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/...eID_1502=29095

[self.coach]

Saw your signature...is your expectation of Jan 2013 assuming HR 3012 passes and made effective immediately, or irrespective of the bill?

7th Aug 2009 Self Coach. Its not a bad date - I avoid the nightmare 8th scenario :-)

[gcq]

Pedro,
Racists will never give an impression that they are racists. Even NUSA recently started claiming they are not anti-immigrant. No one can afford to be a racist or anti-immigrant in modern day. I have been following him for years now. He is always against anything Indian.

It as an anti-immigrant ploy to give an excuse to prevent immigrant friendly bills. It has been NUSA's strategy for years. Either they blame unemployment for not bringing bills or highlight entire H1B program as outsourcing visa. They cannot publicly declare that they are anti-immigrants. So they always find an excuse. Grassley and King works in close co-ordination with NUSA and other anti-immigrant groups.

As for his fraud credentials, I saw this link on trackitt.
http://ytspar.posterous.com/phony-fa...rowley-readers

[immitime]

Rather than EB1, EB2 EB3 (specific countries, quota) etc. this bill elminates the discrimination between people who may be Future Americans in the name of Country of Origin! so this is one of the positive point in Senate which all Senators agree.

And the bill never increase any visas or numbers, they are just making this fair for everyone in a First In First out basis.this one is second positive point in favour of H.R.3012

if any one gives any counter arguments for the above points, it may not be valid in a Equal opportunity, Democratic country like US of A.

Fraud in H1B, poor economy, unemployment, etc etc will not be valid against the above two strong positive point.

This bill should be done deal soon.

[imdeng]

We now have our first troll and others are soon to follow I am sure. This is the price we pay for being a popular forum. Please take note of the following:

1. DO NOT RESPOND to any flaming/trolling. This only encourages them. This forum is NOT for convincing anybody regarding HR-3012 when they have already made their mind. Please ignore inflammatory posts.
2. Moderators - please be ruthless in deleting inflammatory posts and banning trolls - especially when someone's first post is a trolling attempt.

We do not want this to become another trackitt forum. We focus on analysis, discussion and civil discourse. If someone asks a genuine question then by all means - go ahead and answer - but - if you see a trolling attempt - then please - IGNORE.

[self.coach]

Agreed - everyone is entitled to their opinions but stating opinions (prejudiced or not) as facts should not be encouraged on this forum. If we delete such trolls then we are not being democratic.....so I am against that - is there a way for moderator to highlight such a troll post such a way that the users of this forum identify it as a "to-be-ignored"? Somewhere in the header you can explain the conventions..just a suggestion.

[kuku82]

Guys, can someone explain how it works when a bill is approved by the house and is then passed on to the senate? Does it have to go through the judiciary committee in the senate? Or is it upto the majority leader to place the bill on the floor for a vote without having gone through the senate judiciary? Also, how/where does this 'hold' exactly impact the progress?

If this is already answered, please point me to the corresponding link. I just want to be sure that I am contacting the right people at the right time.

[gcq]

Looking at Grassley's hold pattern, reminds me of Ron's verbiage. Modified for grassley:
Grassley looks at every legislation like a dog looking at lamp posts.

[Pedro Gonzales]

I don't know if anyone's noticed, but Trackitt has become an absolute battleground today. Craziness from both sides. First non-FIFOers carpet bombed it with misleading threads spreading misinformation and now FIFOers are responding with blank message threads. If they don't start moderating that site it will lose eyeballs rapidly.

EDIT: - The moderators seem to have woken up and deleted the blank message threads but it's still pretty awful out there.

[manubhai]

A big difference in fighting style between the samurais and the ninjas was that the ninjas avoided looking the opponent in the eye, and the samurais always did.

The samurais wanted to determine the enemy's next move by understanding the expression and the movement of the eye. The ninja's wanted to hide their own move, but more importantly, went far out to let the enemy think that they were weak, and untrained in the arts. They even attacked the enemy from behind.

The ninjas ultimately beat the crap out of the samurais.

1. Inflaming your opponents (not enemies... just opponents in a discussion) is a big sign of stupidity. I'd love it if you come on to a message board, call me and my country all sorts of names, feel good about it, and go to sleep. But I'm in big trouble if you are calm and collected and instead of calling me names, just "DO" what needs to be done to further your cause.

In summary: If you are on trackitt, please don't inflame non-IC. It serves nothing but make them more likely to gather more support for their cause. Also, PM the IC person and request them to ignore the trolls.

2. Trolls are like plague. If you touch them by responding back to them, you die. (Even if you were a ninja!!)

You get the idea?? Now let's get back to the beautiful work we do on this board, letting them hate us, so that when we have our green cards, we can make them love us.

[PlainSpeak]

Ref https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604
Guys,
This is the reason, he is giving...
"I rise to inform my colleagues that I am placing a hold on H.R. 3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act. This bill would eliminate the per-country numerical limitations for employment and family-based immigrants. I have concerns about the impact of this bill on future immigration flows, and am concerned that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."

We all know that, this bill will not rise the number of immigrants and hence it will not be a fodder for any anti-immigrant groups. Grassley might not have read it thoroughly, if he did, he may not give the statement he made above. There are chances that he might even go back on this (remove hold). But, in case if there are any changes made to this bill right now, then it has to go back to the house. That will take another 3 to 6 months in case if it passes and the bill might be active from OCT 2012, instead of applying retroactively to Oct 2011.

I think the key line here
" that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."
We all know that the numbers are not increasing but what if he wants to reduce the numbers. His statement says "bill does nothing to protect" so he might want to include an addendum to reduce visa numbers

[helpful_leo]

Guys,

Does anyone here think it important to rebut the anti-FIFO arguments being sent to Grassley & other senators, some of which may superficially sound credible, e.g.:

HR 3012 will end up giving disporoportionately more visas to IT folks at the cost of Drs & nurses "working in rural Iowa", the underlying assumption being IC are more IT people and ROW is more Drs/ nurses /PhDs, etc.

Except that this ignores the fact that the highest number of international doctors in the US are Indians:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/abou...ry-origin.page

Many nurses in the US are Indian (& Filipino).

Almost 80-90% of international PhDs in the US are Chinese or Indian (many of whom have to apply in EB2).


I tried to ask this on ** - but the post got deleted. Maybe they did not want the (wrong) argument get publicity.

[gcq]

helpful_leo,
no point in writing to grassley. He will never change his stance. He is an anti-immigrant to the core. Let them feed him all trash. If he replays their argument, he will be mocked at.

[PlainSpeak]

Plainspeak: yes, I did think about it and that's why I am much less anxious, because I think Grassley is just trying to get his crazy Steve King amendment into this bill (kill EB3 altogether). The EB3-ROWers are too stupid to realize why Grassley is actually opposing the bill. They have convinced themselves that *anything* to prevent this bill will be a win for them. But at the time of high unemployment and public resentment, the EB program and specifically and EB3 category will be the first one to fall if at all.

helpful_leo: When I first read the EB3-ROW argument, I was genuinely scared, because it did make sense! However once I thought about it a little, I realized that EB3-ROWers are using EB1 and EB2 professions to make the argument. Most of the doctors are in EB2 and I am not exactly sure how many nurses the US needs at this point in time. America produces far more nurses than IT professionals. Practically every housewife here has at least thought of becoming a nurse. If you think Americans are sore over the IT influx, wait until they hear about EB3 nurses.

Also, I realized that EB3 is flooded by our South Asian friends, Pakistani and Bangladeshis. Most of the first world countries have very little stake in EB3, and hence they won't be impacted much by 3012. Check the 2010 report on green card issuance in the EB category. First world countries get a majority of their green cards in EB1. Their "skilled" workers don't need to come to the US, because they have their jobs, a first world lifestyle and a better social safety net right at home. Once we realize this, things are now more transparent. What are the rest of the EB3-ROWers doing? What great need are they filling in America that they find themselves as absolutely essential and Indian IT managers as superfluous? Why is IT so maligned and targeted and used in scare mongering tactics? Aren't the Senators going to realize that the opposition is not really coming from "the rest of the world", but only from "Pakistan/Bangladesh/Russia" for EB3 jobs that could be deemed equally superfluous as the Indian IT jobs?

And yes, you could also make arguments about the doctors from India and the PhDs Indians/Chinese are getting in STEM.

BTW what happened to all the pro 3012 folks on trackitt. I don't see anyone and the ROW people have started multiple thread with all trash in it and going gaga all over?

[orthodox]

I am kinda addicted to Trackitt these days. Not that I am posting anything there, but I am just reading a posts from all the shenanigans and having my daily dose of laugh

[gcq]

To those arguments against IT folks. These ROW guys think IT is the most despised pool in H1B. Dead wrong, H1B was instituted primarily for IT folks. IT is the field where there was shortage in large numbers. Even today, there is shortage of IT folks.

To hear it from Lamar Smith, here is the statement from Lamar Smith on March 31, 2011.
Hearing on H-1B Visas: Designing a Program to Meet the Needs of the U.S. Economy and U.S. Workers

Chairman Smith: The H-1B visa program plays a vital role in our economy. It allows American employers to hire talented foreign students graduating from U.S. universities with degrees in science, technology, engineering and math fields.

It gives these students a try-out period so that American employers can determine which are talented enough to deserve permanent residence. These foreign scholars are part of America’s present and future competiveness.

These students have the potential to come up with an invention that can save thousands of lives or jump-start a whole new industry. They also have the ability to found a company that can provide jobs to tens of thousands of American workers.

It appears that doctorates lead to much more invention than bachelor’s or master’s degrees. Sixteen percent of those with doctorates were named as inventors on a patent application, while only two percent of those with bachelor’s degrees and five percent of those with master’s degrees were named.

Not all H-1B visas go to workers in scientific fields. In 2009, only 35 percent of all initial H-1B approvals went to workers in computer-related fields.

Foreign workers are receiving H-1B visas to work as fashion models, dancers, and as chefs, photographers, and social workers. There is nothing wrong with those occupations, but I’m not sure that foreign fashion models and pastry chefs are as crucial to our success in the global economy as are computer scientists.

The 65,000 base annual quota of H-1B visas is going to come under more and more pressure as the economy improves. If Congress doesn’t act to increase the H-1B cap, then we may need to examine what sort of workers qualify for H-1B visas.

Congress also will have to ensure that the L and B visa programs are not abused by employers seeking ways around the H-1B cap. No matter how generous our legal immigration system is, there will always be individuals who seek to game the process.

The H-1B program has safeguards built into it to protect the interests of American workers. It is a subject of great dispute as to whether those safeguards are sufficient. The Government Accountability Office recently found that H-1B employers categorize over half of their H-1B workers as entry level – which is defined as “perform[ing] routine tasks that require limited, if any exercise of judgment” – and only six percent as fully competent. Are all these entry level workers really the “best and brightest”?

The dollar differences are not trivial. In New York City, the prevailing wage for a computer systems engineer in systems software is $68,370 for an entry level worker and $120,037 for a fully competent worker. Are American workers losing out to entry level foreign workers?

We also need to safeguard national security. The Government Accountability Office recently found that the U.S. government approved over one million H-1B visas to foreign nationals from 13 “countries of concern” – the names of the countries withheld for security reasons.

I am also concerned about the legacy of fraud in the H-1B program. At a hearing over a decade ago, we heard about petitioning companies that were nothing more than a P.O. Box, an abandoned building or a fictitious address and single telephone number. We heard about H-1B workers slated for employment as janitors or nurse’s aides or store clerks.

Apparently, such fraud is not a thing of the past, despite a $500 anti-fraud fee that was instituted in 2004. In 2008, USCIS’s Office of Fraud Detection and National Security issued an assessment that found outright fraud in over 13% of randomly selected cases.

Still, the H-1B program usually does operate to the benefit of America, American employers – especially high tech employers -- and American workers. It is the job of Congress to ensure that it always does.

[helpful_leo]

Plainspeak: yes, I did think about it and that's why I am much less anxious, because I think Grassley is just trying to get his crazy Steve King amendment into this bill (kill EB3 altogether). The EB3-ROWers are too stupid to realize why Grassley is actually opposing the bill. They have convinced themselves that *anything* to prevent this bill will be a win for them. But at the time of high unemployment and public resentment, the EB program and specifically and EB3 category will be the first one to fall if at all.

helpful_leo: When I first read the EB3-ROW argument, I was genuinely scared, because it did make sense! However once I thought about it a little, I realized that EB3-ROWers are using EB1 and EB2 professions to make the argument. Most of the doctors are in EB2 and I am not exactly sure how many nurses the US needs at this point in time. America produces far more nurses than IT professionals. Practically every housewife here has at least thought of becoming a nurse. If you think Americans are sore over the IT influx, wait until they hear about EB3 nurses.

Also, I realized that EB3 is flooded by our South Asian friends, Pakistani and Bangladeshis. Most of the first world countries have very little stake in EB3, and hence they won't be impacted much by 3012. Check the 2010 report on green card issuance in the EB category. First world countries get a majority of their green cards in EB1. Their "skilled" workers don't need to come to the US, because they have their jobs, a first world lifestyle and a better social safety net right at home. Once we realize this, things are now more transparent. What are the rest of the EB3-ROWers doing? What great need are they filling in America that they find themselves as absolutely essential and Indian IT managers as superfluous? Why is IT so maligned and targeted and used in scare mongering tactics? Aren't the Senators going to realize that the opposition is not really coming from "the rest of the world", but only from "Pakistan/Bangladesh/Russia" for EB3 jobs that could be deemed equally superfluous as the Indian IT jobs?

And yes, you could also make arguments about the doctors from India and the PhDs Indians/Chinese are getting in STEM.

EDIT: BTW, the ** has made a mandate of *not* contacting anyone in the Senate and that's why your post is deleted. ** is amazingly not caring at all about the ROWers campaign. They seem to be cooking something, and we will only know when the food is ready.

I only worry about the Dr/nurse/PhD argument because it sounds plausible on the surfcae to most people (even FIFO-ers), may be because there are so many Indians in IT. And because there really isn't any real argument against HR3012, anti-FIFOers can run with this.

I too hope ** know what they are doing. From appearances, they seem quite confident of their approach.

[gcq]

Irrespective of whether majority of Indians are doctors/IT guys/scientist or whether ROW countries are all geniuses, it doesn't matter here in this bill's context. If there is a scientist from India and another scientist from Poland, if they are equally qualified, they both will qualify for EBX category visa. When there are 2 candidates with identical qualification with the same GC categorization, who should be given priority ? The person who came first irrespective of where they were born. EB immigration doesn't discriminate between professions. So all their arguments are baseless. In EB immigration there are only 5 queues, EB1 through EB5. Professions/occupation does not matter, country of birth should not matter. That is the reason for this bill.

As for the argument that there are lot of Indians and Chinese in EB category, that is the exact reason for this bill. Candidates from China and India should not get discouraged and return to their home countries. This will obviously lead to brain drain and loss of competitiveness for US.

[immitime]

I think the key line here
" that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."
We all know that the numbers are not increasing but what if he wants to reduce the numbers. His statement says "bill does nothing to protect" so he might want to include an addendum to reduce visa numbers

Plainspeak good to see you again here.

As you know, labor clearence and I-140 approval is done in a fashion that there is not much skilled people locally here in USA, to perform the specified job, the labor clearence itself specifies to advertise the job on a local news paper where the vacancy exists. The counter argument for grassley is "Do you want American jobs move to Forgein countries because of lack of skill available?"

For example refer to H.R.3012 house vote discussion, one of the Rep metioned the conversation between Bill Clinton and Steve Jobs,

Reducing number may not happen, Even Rep King tried that but invain! Other Senators who are all well educated can understand things more clearly without bias.This bipartisan bill will be helpful to both Republicans and Democrats. let us wait for the good

[self.coach]

Now let's get back to the beautiful work we do on this board, letting them hate us, so that when we have our green cards, we can make them love us.

Manubhai, ek jaadu ki jappi de denge unko. Powerful words those..

[self.coach]

FYI - they are yahoo/google groups out there for EB-ROWs that are bashing 3012. Search for one of these named EB_ROW.