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Thread: Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

  1. #2326
    Quote Originally Posted by bvsamrat View Post
    Earlier I read that few important immigration bills were passsed during lame duck session. will there be any such luck for HR-3012?. Is it still under consideration?
    I'd say there's a 20% chance, but i'm basing it on absolutely no information.
    Last edited by Pedro Gonzales; 11-01-2012 at 12:38 PM.
    NSC (originally TSC, transferred to NSC on 02/13/13) |-| PD - 04/25/08 |-| MD - 01/19/12 |-| RD - 01/27/12 |-| ND - 01/31/12 |-| Check Encashed - 02/02/12 |-| NRD - 02/04/12 |-| FPND - 02/09/12 |-| FPNRD - 02/17/12 |-| FP Early Walk-In - 02/24/12 |-| EAD/AP Approval & card production notice - 03/07/12 |-| EAD/AP RD - 03/12/12 |-| EAD/AP renewal RD - 12/11/12 |-| EAD/AP renewal approval - 01/22/13 |-| 485 Approval notice - 09/04/13 |-| GC RD - 09/11/13|

  2. #2327
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    To bvsamrat
    This article might interest you.As Pedro has mentioned there is a lot of speculation but no concrete information in this article

    http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/arti...ck-session-yes

  3. #2328
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    Another article on STEM visas-is there still hope?

    http://www.rollcall.com/news/Last-Di...1.html?pos=hln

    Also this link from the Boston globe

    http://bostonglobe.com/business/2012...B1O/story.html

    Sorry for multiple edits but it appears that the issue is still alive even amidst the cacophony of the elections

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/c...ust-agree.html
    Last edited by gs1968; 11-04-2012 at 07:40 PM.

  4. #2329
    I think STEM has more chance of passing than HR3012. I also belive STEM brings more relief than to HR 3012.

    STEM adds 55000 more GC's
    HR 3012 doesn't add new GC's but will remove Country quota after x number of years.

  5. #2330
    HR 3012 is still ahead in the legislation process than the STEM. During the heyday of HR 3012, there were more positive reports and yet, the bill has sputtered to the finish line. STEM has a long way to go.

    In 2004, 20000 additional H1B bill was introduced in both house and senate at the same time during lame duck sessions. This year STEM was introduced by the Judicary comitte members in both House and senate, this is a good sign since they can influence the schedule of the bills to committe and outcome from the comitte.

    For EB2-IC, STEM provides minimal relief and the majority of the benefits are expected to go to EB3-ROW, who could be current with the next few years while EB2-IC continue to languish behind by several years. Unless country caps are removed, the EB2-IC backlog simply will not go away. If you are in EB2-IC, you should first support HR 3012 and then STEM.

    Perhaps you should read the bill before making the statement, Bill says the job requirement should have requirement for higher education and person should do the masters in the US. I don't know what makes you think it is helping EB-3. If unused visas avaliable after giving visas to people who did their master's/Ph.d in then US, then they will give visas to people who did masters in foregin countries, if visas are avaliable then visas will be spilled over to Eb-1 to down.

    Recently the USCI has changed the I140 application format, not sure if the cahnge in I140 is to streamline new STEM Process or just to streamline their own process.


    I advise you to read the bill before making statements and passing wrong impressions.

    My personal belief, I don't care who benifts or who don't, as long as the additional visas are granted and lines are moving fast than anticiapted/expected, the bill is good for the immigration community. Stop complaining and start working with your senators/house members.

  6. #2331
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gonzales View Post
    Rupen,

    The basic issue is that your definition of backlog (which matches the definition of all of us on this forum) is different from the President's, the DoS or the USCIS definition. Their definition of backlog is, applications waiting to be processed BY THEM. Yours is applications awaiting green cards. The latter doesn't concern them. They're not in the business of providing green cards, they're in the business of processing applications for green cards. Your application and mine, was processed, we were provided our combo card and our names removed from the backlog. In this respect, the President was neither lying, nor ignorant. His concern is just different from ours. If you want to attack his focus on healthcare reform instead of comprehensive immigration reform in 2009, that's a different point that probably deserves to be in another thread, as I stated a week ago and Q has repeated today.
    People can twist the meaning of a word, the way it would suit them. If he had reduced green card backlog by bringing in CIR, he would have talked about that. But because he has not, he chose to change the meaning of the word. The immigration backlog would affect people who are in that pool. So, if some kind of poll was to be conducted, those would be the people who would be polled. Among those people, you will hardly find people who would say backlog is reduced. Even by USCIS definition of backlog, the backlog is not reduced. H1b application is taking record time now than ever before. Unless, we are talking about I140 processing backlog, I do not know any other things where backlog is reduced. I never wanted to address healthcare issue in this forum and did not raise the point until some started talking about that.

  7. #2332
    Quote Originally Posted by gs1968 View Post
    To bvsamrat
    This article might interest you.As Pedro has mentioned there is a lot of speculation but no concrete information in this article

    http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/arti...ck-session-yes
    This article seems to suggest that some employers are opposing 3012 because it would create backlog for other countries and to counter balance that STEM bill is introduced. However, I do not know why they did not oppose initially and chose to oppose later.

  8. #2333
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    To sportsfan33

    I agree on your assessment about the odds of HR 3012 vs STEM Act. The only point of concern is that the same players in the 3012 game (Smith/Lofgren/Schumer etc) who agreed to eliminate country caps about 1 year ago( it has been that long since 3012 cleared the House) seem to have no qualms in including country caps in their STEM legislation. Has there been a re-consideration of the wisdom of country cap elimination or is this just a start and when some version of 3012 passes they feel it would apply to STEM also?

    On the topic of STEM the article linked below is an interesting read and shows how hard it is to change anything immigration-related in America

    http://betabeat.com/2012/09/schumer-...eral-assembly/

  9. #2334
    Quote Originally Posted by sportsfan33 View Post
    And it still does not change the fact that HR 3012 is ahead in the legislative process.


    Boy oh boy. I really love it when people make such statements that make them look stupid later on.



    EXACTLY. And it is well known that plenty of people in EB3-ROW have masters degrees or higher, because it is an open secret that EB3-ROW still hasn't mastered the art of inflating the job requirements and pass it as EB2.



    The point is that EB3-ROW will have sufficient demand to nearly consume the additional STEM visas because we know that plenty of people in EB3-ROW have Masters and higher. There will be hardly any spillover because EB3-ROW by all accounts has tremendous demand that will be visible once the dates cross August 2007.



    Huh?



    And my advice is to think and do your research before passing judgments.



    By all means, work with your senators, rally, get the STEM bill passed and watch EB3-ROW becoming current and EB2-I lagging behind 7 years. Please come back and tell us how you feel about an EB3-ROW co-worker getting cool jobs and opportunities while you remain stuck in a rut. There is no way I am wasting my time with the STEM bill until the country caps are lifted because it does nothing to improve EB2-I backlog.
    Can you tell me what is difference between EB2 vs EB3? if the job requirement has Masters or higher it is default EB2. So if you think EB3 Row will use STEM Bill, help me understand.

  10. #2335
    Quote Originally Posted by sportsfan33 View Post
    You keep asking for the moon consistently, and you will never get the moon. The US is not in the business of giving a green card to everyone who wants to apply. Nearly the entire world (and especially even Europe now) is in a worse place, so everyone would like to immigrate. But everyone can't - it has to be done under a quota.

    The link that was pointed to by a lawyer was not correct, because the lawyer also wanted to ask for the moon, and there is no moon to be had here.

    The only way to eliminate backlog (the way you define the backlog) is HR 3012. It makes the field even and eliminates GREAT VARIANCES from the system. If the system had no variance and was predictable, everyone will accept it and will move on.

    The US president cannot pass HR 3012. He can only sign a law that could be passed by the Congress.

    Finally, a good number of H1B applications are flatly denied or delayed because of the blatant misuse of the EVC model. I say, good riddance. H1B is a "good intent and faith" based visa, and those words do not rhyme with "desi body shop". If these bad apples are thrown out of the barrel, it will make things for legit people. I for instance, have never had H1B stamping issues (4 times and counting) at consulates in Canada and India.
    Why do you want moon then by passing HR 3012 ?

    You seem to be suggesting that president is helpless unless congress acts. This can not be more further from the truth. He certainly has the ability to influence congress. In case of Hr 3012, all that was needed was the commitment at upper leadership to push it. If it was put up for the vote, it would have been passed by now. If he had put CIR in first 2 years when democrats where in absolute majority, we would not be talking about this now assuming CIR included legal immigration.

    On H1b, you are suggesting that denials and delays are for EVC model. While I agree for denials, I do not agree for delays. Even for direct employer-employee relationship, it is taking longer time then any time ever before. And why does EVC model still exist if USCIS wants to eliminate it ?

  11. #2336
    sportsfan - this is a great post because it clearly lays out how HR3012 is different from STEM (at least from EBIC perspective). How confident you are about this? Anybody else who can corroborate this?

    We should probably create a separate thread to lay this difference out very clearly in front of all EB folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by sportsfan33 View Post
    A person does not need EB2 categorization to apply in EB6 (the new proposed STEM category). By definition, a person who has a Masters or higher will be eligible for EB6. Also, this category is subject to 7%, so EB6-I will be 7% of 55K, which is around 3850.

    Once this category comes into effect, everyone who is eligible in EB2 and EB3 will apply. Let's assume no one in EB2-ROW will apply because EB2-ROW is current. In that case, the bulk of the applicants will come from EB3-ROW. Since EB3-ROW demand is estimated to be far in excess of 55K, and since a good portion of those applicants are estimated to be STEM beneficiaries, we can very well project that when the category goes into effect, EB2-I will receive almost no spillover.

    What's worse, even out of the extra 3850 numbers, some numbers might be taken by EB3-I. Some folks in EB3-I very well have Masters and above. So the net benefit to EB2-I is close to 3000 additional visas and *maybe* some more spillover (i.e. STEM eligible EB3-ROW folks who might have otherwise ported to EB2-ROW). I don't deny there is some benefit to EB2-I, but it is small in the grand scheme of things and I am not losing my sleep over it.

    I hope the picture is clear to you now.
    I no longer provide calculations/predictions ever since whereismyGC.com was created.
    I do run this site only as an administrator. Our goal is to improve clarity of GC process to help people plan their lives better.
    Use the info at your risk. None of this is legal advice.

    Forum Glossary | Forum Rules and Guidelines | If your published post disappeared, check - Lies and Misinformation thread


  12. #2337
    I think Pedro was the one who originally pointed out that the benefits of the STEM bill will mostly go to EB3-ROW. His and sportsfan's argument is that the new STEM visa does not require the job to ask for a MS degree, unlike the existing EB2 system where you don't automatically qualify for second preference just by virtue of having a MS, the job has to require it too. I've never seen the part of the bill that this is waived for the proposed STEM visa.

    I don't think the intent of the bill is to have STEM MS holders working at a car wash or a Dunkin' Donuts, which is precisely what will happen if sportsfan's interpretation is correct (hello Tri Valley).

  13. #2338
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    Apart from the points the Pedro and Sportsfan bring up, if you also look at the composition of students in STEM graduate classes in most accredited universities in the US, I think no one would dispute that Indian and Chinese students comprise a large chunk, definitely more than 7%, perhaps as much as 50% or more in some masters and doctoral programs. So, even ethically, I have a problem with supporting any law that has a backlog built in. It just makes a mockery of the effort the students have to put in, and makes the benefits dependent on a cosmic accident called place of birth.
    Last edited by nyy_27; 11-06-2012 at 01:06 AM.

  14. #2339
    Quote Originally Posted by sportsfan33 View Post
    abcx, the bill will not still grant GCs to STEM grads working at a car wash. it clearly says that the person must be working in a STEM field to be eligible.
    Ok, I forgot about that stipulation. But anyway, my other point still stands that I haven't seen anything which says that the job doesn't need to require a STEM MS (like EB2).

  15. #2340
    I had read one of the STEM bills (the GOP one, I think) but not the other (the Dem one), since, at the time, it's language hadn't yet been released. The one I did not read may have had a different interpretation.

    I was pretty certain about my interpretation of the language at the time. there was some debate in this forum and I believe I convinced the other person (wasn't you abcx13?). I was unable to find those posts now, not sure why. I remember that the 25% figure was from someone reputed on trackitt (sangiano, perhaps?). In any case, I don't really think its worth any of our time looking into it now, until there is some more chatter about the STEM bill. If there is, I promise to read both bills again and summarize once more keeping all the above points in mind.

  16. #2341
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro Gonzales View Post
    In any case, I don't really think its worth any of our time looking into it now, until there is some more chatter about the STEM bill. If there is, I promise to read both bills again and summarize once more keeping all the above points in mind.
    Agreed!

    (pass 10 char limit)

  17. #2342
    Quote Originally Posted by sportsfan33 View Post
    Q, pedro had brought the point up first as others have said. I didn't read the bill yet, just its summary, and based upon that, I am basing my argument. The summary of the bill said that a) Masters and above education, and b) a job in the STEM occupation were the criteria. It did not say that the job itself had to be for Masters and above.
    Thanks Sport. Kudos to Pedro then. Regardless whether there is degree requirement for job or not - the key question is - are these visas be held to country quota? Because if so - then we are back to square one. The only thing that will somewhat alleviate pain would be if the stem visas will be incremental to current EB limit OR even better are unlimited in nature i.e. every STEM graduate is guaranteed one as long as there is a job. Any thoughts on these questions?
    I no longer provide calculations/predictions ever since whereismyGC.com was created.
    I do run this site only as an administrator. Our goal is to improve clarity of GC process to help people plan their lives better.
    Use the info at your risk. None of this is legal advice.

    Forum Glossary | Forum Rules and Guidelines | If your published post disappeared, check - Lies and Misinformation thread


  18. #2343
    Seems status quo will remain. House for Republicans, Senate for democrat and Obama as president.

  19. #2344
    Quote Originally Posted by qesehmk View Post
    Thanks Sport. Kudos to Pedro then. Regardless whether there is degree requirement for job or not - the key question is - are these visas be held to country quota? Because if so - then we are back to square one. The only thing that will somewhat alleviate pain would be if the stem visas will be incremental to current EB limit OR even better are unlimited in nature i.e. every STEM graduate is guaranteed one as long as there is a job. Any thoughts on these questions?
    There certainly was a limit under both bills. The Dem bill added new visa numbers, and the GOP bill took it out of the DV quota. And the country caps remained under both bills.

  20. #2345
    Quote Originally Posted by rupen86 View Post
    Seems status quo will remain. House for Republicans, Senate for democrat and Obama as president.
    Except that there is decidedly more urgency to embrace (hispanic) immigrants on both sides of the divide. CIR (whatever it means) may have good chance in 2013. If it happens, EB immigration reform should also be riding the same wave.

    In immediate term, what happens to pending legislations like HR3012 and STEM visa remains to be seen. We should expect some 'family' twist to EB visas as well.

  21. #2346
    Quote Originally Posted by kkruna View Post
    Except that there is decidedly more urgency to embrace (hispanic) immigrants on both sides of the divide. CIR (whatever it means) may have good chance in 2013. If it happens, EB immigration reform should also be riding the same wave.

    In immediate term, what happens to pending legislations like HR3012 and STEM visa remains to be seen. We should expect some 'family' twist to EB visas as well.
    From Oh law firm:

    Next Congress and the White House will practically see no changes: The second term President Obama in the White House, the Democratic majority Senate in the upper chamber of the federal legislature, and the Republican majority House in the lower chamber of the legislature. Unlike the first term, however, the President is likely to push very aggressively comprehensive immigration reform for two reasons: Firstly, this is a sort of mandate imposed on him in this election. Secondly, he will have nothing to lose from being aggressive because this is the last term he can run for the White House. What does this mean to the direction of immigration reform? Piecemeal immigration reforms, particularly employment-based immigration reform, are likely to face a steep uphill battle. Why? For the comprehensive immigration reform forces, piecemeal immigration reform legislation will weaken the chances for comprehensive immigration reform legislation. The results of this election have reinforced such dynamics. Advocates of employment-based piecemeal immigration reform should come to grips with the political reality and learn to work within the dynamics by realizing importance of negotiation and compromise rather than antagonizing other forces.

  22. #2347
    Quote Originally Posted by rupen86 View Post
    From Oh law firm:

    Next Congress and the White House will practically see no changes: The second term President Obama in the White House, the Democratic majority Senate in the upper chamber of the federal legislature, and the Republican majority House in the lower chamber of the legislature. Unlike the first term, however, the President is likely to push very aggressively comprehensive immigration reform for two reasons: Firstly, this is a sort of mandate imposed on him in this election. Secondly, he will have nothing to lose from being aggressive because this is the last term he can run for the White House. What does this mean to the direction of immigration reform? Piecemeal immigration reforms, particularly employment-based immigration reform, are likely to face a steep uphill battle. Why? For the comprehensive immigration reform forces, piecemeal immigration reform legislation will weaken the chances for comprehensive immigration reform legislation. The results of this election have reinforced such dynamics. Advocates of employment-based piecemeal immigration reform should come to grips with the political reality and learn to work within the dynamics by realizing importance of negotiation and compromise rather than antagonizing other forces.
    Matthew Oh is an idiot. Lots of talk and unsubstantiated speculation, doesn't actually know shit.

  23. #2348
    Quote Originally Posted by abcx13 View Post
    Matthew Oh is an idiot. Lots of talk and unsubstantiated speculation, doesn't actually know shit.
    I agree with his analysis here. Democrats may smell a chance to pass CIR as they might think that republicans will have to move to the center. That being the case, they may not be interested in passing piece-meal legislation.

  24. #2349
    Quote Originally Posted by sportsfan33 View Post
    There is absolutely zero mandate on Obama to do anything. The most notable accomplishment of his second term may be starting a war with Iran unfortunately.

    Did you guys see the record number of votes? Almost 120 million cast!!! It's obvious that Obama supporters again came out in droves, but the election was still very very close and Obama was up against the Mittens!!! If the GOP had a real candidate, it was all over for the poster boy.

    The point is - why did Obama let things get so bad for him when practically all the blacks and latinos voted for him in record numbers? BECAUSE he is absolutely not different from anyone who preceded him or anyone who succeeds him. The CIR is a dream, and in my opinion, it will continue to be a distant dream.

    From the perspective of legal immigrants, nothing should change. We should continue similar strategies like HR 3012 to get what we want - FAIRNESS.
    I believe this election was more about demographics than economy. It is not Romney's problem that he lost. It is republican party's problem. Their base is old, white and dying. They need to expand their base otherwise they would become irrelevant in the coming time.

  25. #2350
    I wouldn't express myself so strongly as you. However I think Oh's analysis is quite poor. I do think that since Obama has nothing to lose hereafter, he will push things aggressively. However that doesn't mean he will block piecemeal legislation. Especially one like HR3012 that is so ripe to sign.

    Governance is about making choices and bargains. Especially now that Obama has nothing to lose - he doesn't have to take an approach of either/or. Now he can afford to shoot for both. In other words he can take piecemeal AND comprehensive - BOTH approaches.

    The real question is - how will his immigration policy fit with his stance on outsourcing, jobs creation and economic revival. That will better shape his support for EB reforms in particular rather than whether EB reform is piecemeal or NOT.
    Quote Originally Posted by abcx13 View Post
    Matthew Oh is an idiot. Lots of talk and unsubstantiated speculation, doesn't actually know shit.
    I no longer provide calculations/predictions ever since whereismyGC.com was created.
    I do run this site only as an administrator. Our goal is to improve clarity of GC process to help people plan their lives better.
    Use the info at your risk. None of this is legal advice.

    Forum Glossary | Forum Rules and Guidelines | If your published post disappeared, check - Lies and Misinformation thread


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