Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[gcq]

For a little history why H1B was introduced. With the current backlog and retrogression due to country caps, it was not practical for employers to hire gc holders if H1B was not available. Let us say your company has an immediate need for an employee for an immediate business necessity. If the employer had to wait for 6 months or more for the perm to be done, then some more time for I-140 to be cleared. Then wait for the employees turn to come up in the GC queue due to country caps, company's competitor would be winning for sure. Which company needs such an immigration system. To circumvent this short coming H1B was introduced so that company could hire people on a short notice and go on with their business. Grassley is trying to kill this convenience and forcing companies to go through the GC process.

If the country cap is in place ( Grassley's 15%) and H1B is reformed as per his requirement, the only people who will end up working here is people from ROW countries. Companies will realize, there is no point in hiring Indians and Chinese for GC anyways as there is country cap. Do we see his evil design ?

[Pedro Gonzales]

That's really surprising. Are you 100% sure? What stops all companies from sponsoring candidates with H1Bs in that case? There are many companies that have open jobs with specific skills that can be filled with immigrant candidates right away, but are only specifically advertized for PRs or citizens. Could you please explain?

I agree with Kanmani. I don't believe there is any wage criteria / ability to hire Americans attached to the H1B. My current firm created a position to hire me, because they knew me and wanted me to work for them. They hadn't tried to hire an American / LPR and failed. My H1B came within 3 to 4 weeks of my getting my offer so they couldn't have tried very hard if they did.

As to your other point on fake desi consultant recruits taking up genuine H1B slots, I couldn't agree more. My wife had a job offer from a fortune 20 company in 2007 that she couldn't join because the H1Bs ran out on day 1. Her lawyers had applied for her visa on the first day but there were so many applicants that people were selected in random. My wife's sister in law got one of those fake H1Bs that year without a job. Needless to say, they didn't talk to each other for many months.

Still, as much as I'd support stricter enforcement against fraud, it's a different subject that ought to be discussed in a different bill.

[TeddyKoochu]

Thanks for the perspective Teddy. I did not understand the point of how the 50% rule affects the consulting companies. Not that I support a rule like that, but I was curious to know why you thought the 50% rule was a hindrance. I do agree that by increasing the paperwork, small consulting companies will be negatively affected, and already, many in the financial industry are not sponsoring H1B any longer (my wife experienced that first hand). The *reform* should make it easier for genuine employers to hire talent easily while weeding out the fraudsters. It is possible to do this, and maybe Grassley's reforms do not do it. Grassley might just want to kill the H1B, which needs to be opposed at all costs. However it should not be difficult for interest groups to come up with an alternate proposal that achieve the *right reforms*. Just my opinion, and contrary to what has been noted about me, I remain very positive about the prospects of HR 3012.

Let me give you some history on how this started.
- From early 2009 client letters became the norm, however it was supposed to be a simple client letter. This way USCIS compiled a good list of all clients and client letter RFE's became the norm.
- Early 2010 E2E memo came by which stipulated that the petitioning employer must supervise day to day work. This requirement is almost never followed by Indian consulting companies and big US consulting companies; it is followed by Indian bigwigs.
- Most Indian consulting companies have more than 50% people who are on H1 in fact many large US consulting companies have separate offshoot companies for h1 consultants. Now both these groups will definitely not meet the requirement. With the Zadroga act (9-11 relief bill) these companies already have to pay a higher fee.
Now while it may be true that some consulting companies in the name of profit or their narrow agenda may have treated people badly but there are many good ones. On another note many big companies are treating people from I/C like slaves by filing in EB3 even if they could have possibly filed in EB2. Look at another angle consulting companies may have issues most consultants are just fine they have 4 year engineering college degrees or MCA meaning thereby most of them have gone through the rigors of an entrance exam. The idea of punishing consulting companies also leads to collateral damage by punishing consultants and their families. Some of my views could be biased because Iam also a consultant.

[kd2008]

neelu8 on I V reported that it was good that HR 3012 contents were getting added to other bills. It implies that there is little opposition to it. More likely Senators want to capitalize on it to get their own pet things approved. When everything else fails, people will come back to HR 3012 realizing that anything that is strictly not limited to HR 3012 will get shot down. Senators don't need to add stuff to a bill to poison it, they simply oppose it.

She also said similar "processing" went on in the house but no one was paying any attention.

HR 3012 is not going to get voted on before Christmas or any time soon. It will take its due course and time. Patience and persistence is the key.

[Pedro Gonzales]

For a little history why H1B was introduced. With the current backlog and retrogression due to country caps, it was not practical for employers to hire gc holders if H1B was not available. Let us say your company has an immediate need for an employee for an immediate business necessity. If the employer had to wait for 6 months or more for the perm to be done, then some more time for I-140 to be cleared. Then wait for the employees turn to come up in the GC queue due to country caps, company's competitor would be winning for sure. Which company needs such an immigration system. To circumvent this short coming H1B was introduced so that company could hire people on a short notice and go on with their business. Grassley is trying to kill this convenience and forcing companies to go through the GC process.

If the country cap is in place ( Grassley's 15%) and H1B is reformed as per his requirement, the only people who will end up working here is people from ROW countries. Companies will realize, there is no point in hiring Indians and Chinese for GC anyways as there is country cap. Do we see his evil design ?

Very interesting..... I never thought about a world pre-H1B.

[immitime]

I am trying to understand this. Is the hold by Grassley still valid? Or is Grassley essentially asking the committee to vote on his amendments, and will take the hold back no matter the outcome? If this is just a posturing move by Grassley to please his constituency, more power to him. But I understand that the hold remains, and negotiation is going on to "amend his amendments".

Sports,

Hold by Grassley is still valid Reports shows that there was immense pressure upon Sen. Grassley to lift the hold, so naturally he want to insert his intentions as amendment to the bill which is hardcore and anti busines, according to some of the senators on both sides so negotiations was turn down, by him. but Sen. Majority leader can still pass this bill in its present form calling for a cloture vote (with 30 hours of discussion on present form of HR 3012) so supporting Senators can vote in favour, so 60 votes will pass this bill in its present form. This is only my understanding. For the bill to pass it is not necessary that they need to amend the bill.

[Kanmani]

The bill is not dead , but missed its smooth and silky way to passage indeed.

Anybody watching Senate procedures might have noticed, right before the closing statement from Senate majority reader Reid, he would ask for unanimous consent to pass some HR bills . He would request to suspend the debate and pass the bill and the chair person passes the bill without any objection heard. I have heard only one aye sofar from the floor and that aye is from the senator himself ( usually Reid) who asks for unanimous consent ( at the time of closing the senate floor is left with only clerks )

So our Bill H.R.3012 missed the above procedure only .

We are left with another lengthy procedure ( as explained by immitime in the above post #1035)

[immitime]

I agree with you that bill may not have died yet. The reason I am saying this is because one thing that no one has bothered to look for is that if Grassley really wanted to kill the bill, he could have done nothing with his hold, just keep sitting tight and let the bill die. Why would he introduce these amendments?

Now here are 2 possibilities.

1. Grassley knows that bill has broad support in Senate. He knows that if cloture is brought, the bill may pass and so he wants to add his amendments and give it a try if not all but at least 1 or 2 amendments are accepted. Worth a shot!!

2. Grassley really wanted to kill the bill but just wanted to show that at least he did offer amendments and did something to let it pass. Now, he well knew beforehand that democrats are going to oppose them and so the bill will die.

Unless Mr. Grassley rises again from his chair and inform us what his real intentions are, we just have to play a guessing game.

Yes, this is what I thought too.! May be as people suggested here it may take some months before it passes in the present form, but there is always hope :-) particularly the same kind of amendments failed in congress if you remember the voting during HR 3012 in the House.

[letheQ]

The bill is not dead , but missed its smooth and silky way to passage indeed.

Anybody watching Senate procedures might have noticed, right before the closing statement from Senate majority reader Reid, he would ask for unanimous consent to pass some HR bills . He would request to suspend the debate and pass the bill and the chair person passes the bill without any objection heard. I have heard only one aye sofar from the floor and that aye is from the senator ( usually Reid) who asks for unanimous consent ( at the time of closing the senate floor is left with only clerks )

So our Bill H.R.3012 missed the above procedure only .

e are left with another lengthy procedure .

Does it happened today?

[idiotic]

Who is pressurizing grassley? AFAIK, he is the republican nominated immigration watchdog in senate. Any thoughts on who exactly is driving the negotiations and pressure on grassley?

[gcq]

I apologize again, but pardon me for playing the devil's advocate.

So what if Grassley said let's reform the H1B and remove the country caps?

After knowing that H1B is a "good faith" based system, actually I am surprised that a mere 65000 visas last almost an year (with the exception of 3 bad years in between 2005-2008). 65000 is not a large number compared to even the skilled labor pool in the US. So the "good faith" is working by and large and that part of Grassley's reform is never going to make it. It makes sense for a company to quickly hire an H1B without the drama associated with the PERM.

However he does have good proposals for restricting the number of H1Bs to a certain percentage and redefining prevailing wage. I think we would not see another infamous VSG if the better parts of Grassley's proposals were considered.

No matter what laws are made, there will be people exploiting the system. This is not limited to H1B. It happens at even larger scale on FB side. So fraud is always going to be there in all immigration categories. USCIS has fraud division handling these issues.

H1B has to confirm to LCA requirement for wage standards. That is already in place. This higher median average wage proposal is coming straight from some of the anti-immigrant groups like PG. There are many anti-immigrant groups. This higher median wage is purely their proposal. Grassley is well connected to these anti-immigrant groups.

What is the real solution for H1B ? Double the greencard quota and lift country caps. That way employees are free like a bird and has no stigma or restrictions associated with H1B. Is any of these senators proposing this ? No. Reason being, they are not at all interested in making it easier for anyone to immigrate. They want to make the life of H1B holders hell through additional restrictions.

All these additional restrictions will only lead to more outsourcing. They are worried about their anti-immigrant or pro-union agendas only. Nobody cares about america.

[idiotic]

[QUOTE=sportsfan33;16363]What is the downside of Grassley's prevailing wage proposal?

http://www.immigrateme.com/senator-g...ills-h-r-3012/

[jackbrown_890]

We are left with another lengthy procedure ( as explained by immitime in the above post #1035)

I think the best thing can happen to this bill now is, the pressure on Grassley eventually will make him drop his hold..i am assuming pressure is from republicans, specially house republicans such as Chaffetz and others and senators like Mike Lee,,,both said they were going to talk to Grassley..and i am assuming they did.. but once Grassley drops the hold..i think he will be allowed to offer the amendments when there is a vote on the bill..(there is always a possibility Grassley will stand on his position and keep a hold) Dems have Senate majority and they are not gonna allow some amendments to go thru specially removing diversity visas and few other...
I noticed 2 things last night on TV..not too big, but good for LEGAL immigrants..Eric Schmdit was on CNN and allowed cameras first time in their building ..but the important thing is he talked about making visa procedures simple and stuff which helps our cause.. Schimdit is no politician but I think his opinion helps us a littlle since no matter what Google is Huge company and since Brin is Russian immigrant,, GOOGLE supporting us always helps..and specially in National media..big help..
2nd,, GOP Debate last night..I was little disappointed that they didn't talk much about LEGAL Immigrants...I only heard Huntsman talking a little about reforming LEgal immigration and keeping high-skilled immigrants here..

[devi_pd]

CLoture has to be filed to get this bill to debate now. Initially Senate was planning to pass the bill using "Unanimous Consent Agreement" but Grassley came in the way. Now 16 Senators have to sign to file a cloture motion to end the debate and bring the bill to vote. 30 hours max debate is allowed, it is usually much less than this. One Senator can speak for a max of 1 hour. No other business is allowed during Cloture.

Now the only question is whether the Senate leadership considers this bill important enough to make it go throughthis process??

[Prabhas]

Thanks to Kanmani for summarizing Grassley's ammendments and its impact.

Sports buddy!

In simple if Grassley's Amendments were to become a law, it will make USA another UK! I have been in the UK for four years before moving into the USA and the laws are so stringent that require an employer to advertise for a job in the UK and then in the European Union countries and only after that they will be allowed legally to employ a candidate from ROW only if they dont find any in Europe! So, except for companies like TCS, Wipro etc there is no such concept of Desi Employers hiring in the UK! There is no or limited Desi Employer model in the UK! This will literally kill the concept of Desi Employer here, forget about the wage determination & to other additions!!! At least there is a lot of awareness with the candidates applying for H1's these years. Thanks to the internet. So,I believe the so called fraud and misuse has reduced to some extent. But hey, think of it this way...In the 1900's when Irish, German's and other countries migrated into the USA, I am sure there is some level of fraud and misuse by the middle men then. It will happen at any period of time no matter how stringent these laws are! So cheers, Lets hope this HR.3012 gets approved soon!

[Prabhas]

LOL! that was my first post on the blog and didnt knew my Thumps up-emoticon appears right next to my Subject Line. I meant his ammendments a Thums-down. I guess I got it correct this time :-)

[Pedro Gonzales]

ayya ungala aani thaane pidunga sonnom , neenga veetaye idikireengale? ( Tamil friends pls translate this on my behlaf)

My humble efforts....

Bhaisaab, humne sirf keele ko nikaalne ko kaha, aap poore ghar ko gira kyon rahe hain?
Sir, we only asked that you pull the nail out, why are you tearing down the whole house?

[gcq]

sports,
You are probably basing your opinion on your own experience regarding H1B. H1B has to be paid the market wage. That is fair. Current laws already have that requirement in the form of LCA. In your case I guess you are working for a good salary now. That means current laws are working just fine. If some company pays lesser than prevailing wage or any other H1B violation, you can report them to DOL and USCIS. This can even be done anonymously. Fraud prevention and correction systems are already in place. You don't create laws to fix fraud in a system. You institute fraud handling system. Grassley being an anti-immigrant, is trying to kill H1B program itself. This is not good for us, not good for america.

If he wants to introduce an H1B reform on his own, let him introduce a stand alone bill. We will see how far it goes. He has introduced this amendment to kill HR 3012, nothing else.

If somebody wants a higher salary, they can go to an employer that provides it. We shouldn't be asking an anti-immigrant lawmaker to introduce an "H1B reform", so that we can have higher wages. IMO you are generalizing based on your experience.

[Jonty Rhodes]

From Oh Law Firm

Sen. Grassley's proposed amendment was not acceptable not only from the Democrat stand points but also from the Republican standpoints. Accordingly, even if it makes through, hypothetically, the Senate, there is no chance that such amended bill will be able to make through the House. Sen. Grassley was throwing a chip of increasing EB per country limit upto 15% (without eliminating EB per country limit and without incresing FB per country limit to 15% ) to achieve his goal of practical choking of the throat of H-1B and L-1 nonimmigrant professional worker programs to the death, which will result in devastation for high tech businesses, higher learning institutions, and other industries that need foreign brains.

Any surprise?

[PlainSpeak]

sports,
HR 3012 is going to be passed intact with none of Grassley's amendments. Lately you are behaving a bit strangely. From a cheerleader to a doomsayer.

You don't say ....

[qesehmk]

sport thoughtful opinions are valuable regardless whether one agrees w them. Yours are thoughtful and so pls don't be apologetic.

As per H1B L1 amendment, even if one assumes or agrees that those amendments make sense - I would still not advocate for them "NOW" since they are meant purely to cause distraction in HR3012.

Just an opinion. So don't mean to criticize.

I was talking about ONE AMENDMENT and that is prevailing wage and making sure that H1B is not used in salary arbitrage.

Look, let me make my position very clear here.

a) I am an ardent supporter of HR 3012, have been from day 1, and I continue to support it, send elaborate responses to various anti-HR 3012 people (Pedro can testify to this) and I have gone to my state Senators offices 4 times (including one visit this week).
b) I do not know Grassley. He is portrayed as an anti-immigrant and Ron Gotcher went so far as to call him a member of the KKK. Very likely, he may be one. I don't claim that Grassley's amendments are logical.
c) I am not advocating H1B amendments *as a precondition to the passage of HR 3012*. Grassley is doing it. If Grassley never put a hold on this bill, I would debate the H1B amendments in a separate topic if any incidence arose.
d) I have first hand experienced H1B as a tool for salary arbitrage, and I wish it wasn't like this. In no way, I am advocating less friendly conditions for businesses, but what I am advocating is an "economic equivalence principle". Hiring an H1B or a PR/citizen should purely be based upon need irrespective of all other factors, and prevailing wage redefinition is a great way to achieve it. Forget about what everything else Grassley is saying, and just focus upon that one aspect.

If our own grassroots efforts can come up with a sensible bill for H1B reform, the likes of Grassley will never be heard of from again.

In any case, this discussion has diverted too much, and I sincerely apologize. I agree with others that none of the H1B provisions are relevant for the rapid passage of this bill. This is my last post on this topic, and moderators can move it somewhere else. I am an HR 3012 supporter, and ready to look for the next action item blast from the **

gcq - The kind of work an H1B does, a normal employee would expect 20-50% more. My personal experience and gripe is that - i was underpaid by a hundred K or so. Initially when hired, an H1B may be paid similar to a normal employee. But six years is a long time and people tend to be severely underpaid by the time they are in 6th year. So LCA is not effective beyond initial certification.

Secondly, an LCA itself can be manipulated so easily. I don't want to point out who is flaunting LCA without violating the law. But one can guess it!

That said - I do not think we should support any H1B amendments NOW. This is not the time for it.

sports,
You are probably basing your opinion on your own experience regarding H1B. H1B has to be paid the market wage. That is fair. Current laws already have that requirement in the form of LCA. In your case I guess you are working for a good salary now. That means current laws are working just fine. If some company pays lesser than prevailing wage or any other H1B violation, you can report them to DOL and USCIS. This can even be done anonymously. Fraud prevention and correction systems are already in place. You don't create laws to fix fraud in a system. You institute fraud handling system. Grassley being an anti-immigrant, is trying to kill H1B program itself. This is not good for us, not good for america.

If he wants to introduce an H1B reform on his own, let him introduce a stand alone bill. We will see how far it goes. He has introduced this amendment to kill HR 3012, nothing else.

If somebody wants a higher salary, they can go to an employer that provides it. We shouldn't be asking an anti-immigrant lawmaker to introduce an "H1B reform", so that we can have higher wages. IMO you are generalizing based on your experience.

[gcq]

Q,
LCA is never the maximum pay that an H1B employee can get. It is the minimum pay an employee needs to be paid. I am sure majority of H1B holders are paid way above prevailing wage. LCA is just a mechanism to ensure that H1B employee is not undercutting standard wages. The real pay is dependent on our bargaining skills and market value.

[qesehmk]

I would agree that LCA establishes minimum. But wouldn't agree that majority H1B are paid way above that minimum. Majority of employers are smart and leverage H1B to their advantage by keeping the minimum much lower than what they would've to pay for the skill in the market.

Think this way ..... if theoretically if they are not able to hire an american worker in that job - the salary for that job should just skyrocket. Hence the H1B that comes to rescue by suppressing wages in the first place. Secondly the H1B person is almost made slave through GC promise. Thirdly the LCA process is very easily manipulated and so the minimum salary is pittance compared to what an American worker would get in the first place.

Q,
LCA is never the maximum pay that an H1B employee can get. It is the minimum pay an employee needs to be paid. I am sure majority of H1B holders are paid way above prevailing wage. LCA is just a mechanism to ensure that H1B employee is not undercutting standard wages. The real pay is dependent on our bargaining skills and market value.

[gcq]

LCA is a simple process. Employer requests DOL to provide standard wages for a given occupation. DOL provides it, Not sure how someone can manipulate LCA. I have been in this country long enough. I haven't seen a single of my colleagues or friends being paid close to LCA wages. Most of them are paid way above prevailing wages.

Whether we agree or not DOL is the standard for wages. Very high wages is just a dream for the likes on union leaders. If there is a shortage of a particular skillset, companies will just move to a different country where they can hire that skill set at reasonable wages. That is inevitable. Grassley and co with their "H1B reform" is doing just that.

As for the slavery argument. Even gc holders and citizens are bound to their employment to a certain level. That is the best freedom one can get. Solution to that is to make sure that everyone gets their GC in a reasonable timeframe, say 2 years. Increase the number of EB visas and remove the country cap. That is the solution not a more stringent H1B. Our slavery is due to these stringent H1B requirements. Instead of tightening it we should be advocating to relax it so that we can live like human beings.

[qesehmk]

gcq - I am all for abolishing H1B altogether. If an employer wants to hire somebody - just hire that person. If capital (i.e. $$$) can flow freely then why stop human capital?

My point was about current H1B and its leverage to employers. Employers are very smart in understanding H1B and how they can leverage it to their advantage.

p.s. - If you can talk about union leaders then somebody else can comment on Corporate pigs. So lets not go there. Just keep it rational. Just FYI ... the minimum wage in this country has actually declined in real terms over last 3 decades. Generally one progresses in career, starts attending meetings with Directors VPs and sometimes CEOs. And trust me I have been doing all of the above since at least 8 years. That's when one usually starts bashing unions. I have been working with people who have had company planes to fly them around. But I would be a real pig if I lose sight to the common man whether an American or Indian. So personally I never make comments on unions for its the weak that need protection not the strong ones.

LCA is a simple process. Employer requests DOL to provide standard wages for a given occupation. DOL provides it, Not sure how someone can manipulate LCA. I have been in this country long enough. I haven't seen a single of my colleagues or friends being paid close to LCA wages. Most of them are paid way above prevailing wages.

Whether we agree or not DOL is the standard for wages. Very high wages is just a dream for the likes on union leaders. If there is a shortage of a particular skillset, companies will just move to a different country where they can hire that skill set at reasonable wages. That is inevitable. Grassley and co with their "H1B reform" is doing just that.

As for the slavery argument. Even gc holders and citizens are bound to their employment to a certain level. That is the best freedom one can get. Solution to that is to make sure that everyone gets their GC in a reasonable timeframe, say 2 years. Increase the number of EB visas and remove the country cap. That is the solution not a more stringent H1B. Our slavery is due to these stringent H1B requirements. Instead of tightening it we should be advocating to relax it so that we can live like human beings.