Discussion On The Politics of Immigration Reform (Comprehensive Or Otherwise)

[AceMan]

I do agree that immigration (quota) is a zero sum game. Also agree that people get on with their life (just like a frog in a boiling water). Also agree that not everybody can survive six more years of trump.

So not sure where the disagreement is iatiam!!

I am suggesting that litigation is the ONLY way EB-I can possibly get out of this misery. Or else status quo is always the option

Sorry Q, I cannot agree with you on this. The law is very clear on this regarding country quota. The option to correct the anomaly was HR 3012 through to HR392. We know how the lawsuit against October 2015 visa bulletin was thrown out. The actions to improve the visa allocation and prevent EB visa wastage was the reason FAD/FD concept was introduced then.

After 3 years, USCIS is finally starting to respect Filing date on a regular basis and you are suggesting a litigation attempt which has failed miserably in the past.

[iatiam]

I do agree that immigration (quota) is a zero sum game. Also agree that people get on with their life (just like a frog in a boiling water). Also agree that not everybody can survive six more years of trump.

So not sure where the disagreement is iatiam!!

I am suggesting that litigation is the ONLY way EB-I can possibly get out of this misery. Or else status quo is always the option

Looks like we agree on most things which is a rarity these days

My point is, if laws are followed properly, backlogs would me manageable and suing the government is not an option. No one will do it to begin with and even if we do, it wont help

[Raj0687]

After hearing the courts verdict on Oct/2015 visa builtin revocation case, I lost faith in the US justice system, I don't think it works for non-citizens. It works fair only for citizens, it's defiantly not for immigrants.


Forget about courts and those who already greened, I bet lot of the people who are close to getting GC or have an EAD, doesn't want to support this idea of challenging country quota in court. Live example one wise person right in this forum, (S)he heard our lament every day, called Oct/2015 case plaintiff as insane.

[qesehmk]

if laws are followed properly, backlogs would me manageable and suing the government is not an option. No one will do it to begin with and even if we do, it wont help

This I can't agree with. Today the demand is way more than the quota. Thus, howsoever lawfully USCIS and DOS work, the backlogs will only grow and never clear or be manageable.

You can only say you won't sue, but don't bet on others not doing it. I hope somebody someday does. They will lose here and there. But I am confident persistence will pay. US is the greatest country for a reason and that reason is Justice for all.

[altek001]

Sorry Q, I cannot agree with you on this. The law is very clear on this regarding country quota. The option to correct the anomaly was HR 3012 through to HR392. We know how the lawsuit against October 2015 visa bulletin was thrown out. The actions to improve the visa allocation and prevent EB visa wastage was the reason FAD/FD concept was introduced then.

After 3 years, USCIS is finally starting to respect Filing date on a regular basis and you are suggesting a litigation attempt which has failed miserably in the past.

USCIS is not doing a favor by accepting filing dates. They are doing it as the demand in EB3 is very low.

The current process of allocating EB visas is not by merit. I have experienced Indians in EB2/3 marry Indian women from Nepal and Middle East just for the purpose of skipping in Line. Why there is a loop hole of cross chargeability in EB if merit is supposed to be a level playing field for all? It does not make sense for you to wait a decade longer when your colleague is qualified at the same level or below your expertise.

DACA folks obtained green cards even though just because they were brought without their knowledge and Courts have always been in their favor. WHY?? Because there is a strong lobby of lawyers who fought the case even if Obama bypassed Congress in granting DACA.

In the same manner, We indians need to hire best lawyers to challenge EB discrimination (just as Q said) for the courts to acknowledge the insanity and Archaic laws of EB visa allocation. Enough Said...!!

[altek001]

The law firm challenging EB-5 discrimination (counting of dependents in EB5 limit) is Kurzban, Kurzban, Weinger, Tetzeli and Pratt, P.A.

https://www.kktplaw.com/

It's now or never to file a law suit as with current movement, EB2 Indian folks with PD 2009 and 2010 will wait atleast 5 years to get Green cards. My understanding is based on number of PERM filings in FY09/10.

[altek001]

The law firm challenging EB-5 discrimination (counting of dependents in EB5 limit) is Kurzban, Kurzban, Weinger, Tetzeli and Pratt, P.A.

https://www.kktplaw.com/

It's now or never to file a law suit as with current movement, EB2 Indian folks with PD 2009 and 2010 will wait atleast 5 years to get Green cards. My understanding is based on number of PERM filings in FY09/10.

https://www.law360.com/articles/1094...visa-cap-fight

[qesehmk]

Sorry Q, I cannot agree with you on this. The law is very clear on this regarding country quota. The option to correct the anomaly was HR 3012 through to HR392. We know how the lawsuit against October 2015 visa bulletin was thrown out. The actions to improve the visa allocation and prevent EB visa wastage was the reason FAD/FD concept was introduced then.

After 3 years, USCIS is finally starting to respect Filing date on a regular basis and you are suggesting a litigation attempt which has failed miserably in the past.

Respectfully Aceman to my knowledge nobody has ever challenged country quota as discriminatory and filed a lawsuit based on that. Tell me if I am wrong.

[swordfish380]

This I can't agree with. Today the demand is way more than the quota. Thus, howsoever lawfully USCIS and DOS work, the backlogs will only grow and never clear or be manageable.

You can only say you won't sue, but don't bet on others not doing it. I hope somebody someday does. They will lose here and there. But I am confident persistence will pay. US is the greatest country for a reason and that reason is Justice for all.

" Justice for all" was until the day Trump got elected. Now US is laughing stock of the world.
This country has welcomed immigrants from 1700s .it has to stop at some point? The population has increased by 30 % in last 30 years.. A sensible nation has to do something about it?
Im also waiting for GC for a long time.
I see FB as big culprit, it also needs a merit process . majority of FB provides work force to retail industry.

[Raj0687]

In one of the interview Kurzban said, they wanted to just fight for the EB5 for now and if they win the EB5 law suite, the rest of the EB categories follow EB5, not sure what that means, the dept automatically applies the same rule to other categories or they amend the law suite to have other categories or file a separate law suite.

[AceMan]

Respectfully Aceman to my knowledge nobody has ever challenged country quota as discriminatory and filed a lawsuit based on that. Tell me if I am wrong.

As you said in your previous post, this country provides legal options to question what people feel is discriminatory. There is a lawsuit against H4EAD in 2015 filed by people who were replaced by H1's in 2012. As frivolous as it sounds, the lawsuit is dragging on in the courts. It all sounds very nice, but the outcome is not what the people are going to like.


The lawsuit of 2015 on the date change for filing was thrown out of the court, even though it was projected to win. The law of the land clearly says 7% quota. Counting family members in the same visa numbers is another one. That as you know is challenged by Eb5 filers. Let us see how it pans out.

I also know that while I am not going to be a part of lawsuit, another person in the Eb queue might feel differently and want to pursue it. But it helps to understand the odds and the magnitude of what you are asking, and the push back it can get quoting national security and what not. Courts will make decisions based on the laws and direct the agencies to see what is possible. If the agencies say it fits the immigration security needs of the nation, there is no way courts are going to overrule that

[qesehmk]

Neither of those lawsuits speak discrimination. Do they?

As you said in your previous post, this country provides legal options to question what people feel is discriminatory. There is a lawsuit against H4EAD in 2015 filed by people who were replaced by H1's in 2012. As frivolous as it sounds, the lawsuit is dragging on in the courts. It all sounds very nice, but the outcome is not what the people are going to like.


The lawsuit of 2015 on the date change for filing was thrown out of the court, even though it was projected to win. The law of the land clearly says 7% quota. Counting family members in the same visa numbers is another one. That as you know is challenged by Eb5 filers. Let us see how it pans out.

I also know that while I am not going to be a part of lawsuit, another person in the Eb queue might feel differently and want to pursue it. But it helps to understand the odds and the magnitude of what you are asking, and the push back it can get quoting national security and what not. Courts will make decisions based on the laws and direct the agencies to see what is possible. If the agencies say it fits the immigration security needs of the nation, there is no way courts are going to overrule that

[delguy]

The justice in US is not black and white. It depends on multiple factors - which court, which judge, which lawyer, media coverage etc. With all these cases going on against immigration related EOs, the furst thing you read us "Obama appointed Judge so and so..." or "Trump appointed judge so and so..". Even in cases brought by Muller, you will figure out who is presiding iver the case, who appointed the said judge, what hi/her leanings are etc etc.

I am sure that if in 2015, we had a better media coverage and a better team of lawyers, we would have won the case. Even in the case of CNN's Jim Acosta, the news mentioned who the law firm is and how they are very good in APA related lawsuits.

[AceMan]

Neither of those lawsuits speak discrimination. Do they?

Let’s say, If the counter argument this is the check to prevent monopoly then?

[qesehmk]

Let’s say, If the counter argument this is the check to prevent monopoly then?

Monopoly as in majority of those who came first in the line?

But we digress ... don't we? Did those two lawsuits alleged discrimination?

[AceMan]

Monopoly as in majority of those who came first in the line?

But we digress ... don't we? Did those two lawsuits alleged discrimination?

I don't think those suits had explicit discrimination, only implied one.

However the moot point is, the dates have been retrogressed since 2005. Law firms should have been jumping pro-bono for this, if there is a sniff of opportunity. Why would lot of legal immigrants go for legislative route via HR3012=>HR392? Did something change after 2017/18 so that we can try the legal route.

On a similar tone a federal Judge tossed out case against doctor who performed FGM on minor girls after 12 years.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/federal-j...093409490.html

Any body could have realized those girls were discriminated against. But the Judge ruled in favor of the doctor after 12 years!!!

H4EAD lawsuit, dragging on the court without any respite for more than 3 years. Discrimination against US citizens is their argument along with questioning DHS ability to authorize employment circumventing the congress!!!

[rocketfast]

1. 15% of the green cards given are employment based. EB2 and EB3 queue is mostly fed by H1B visa holders. Majority of H1B visa holders are Indians.

2. The argument that I generally hear are Majority of H1B visa holders from India are not really "merit" but rather simply "cheap".

3. So removing country cap is not merit-based but rather will lead to "monopoly" of cheap workers.

If argument 2 and 3 is indeed true, it can easily be fixed by simply not doing a lottery of H1B but rather give it out based on same kind of merit (For e.g 300% of median income of the area first, 200% of median income of the area next etc). At least that will remove the argument that non-merit based people will benefit with removal of country quotas.

4. Once the lottery is removed and we also remove country-caps, we effectively have a capitalistic merit based immigration.

[AceMan]

1. 15% of the green cards given are employment based. EB2 and EB3 queue is mostly fed by H1B visa holders. Majority of H1B visa holders are Indians.

2. The argument that I generally hear are Majority of H1B visa holders from India are not really "merit" but rather simply "cheap".

3. So removing country cap is not merit-based but rather will lead to "monopoly" of cheap workers.

If argument 2 and 3 is indeed true, it can easily be fixed by simply not doing a lottery of H1B but rather give it out based on same kind of merit (For e.g 300% of median income of the area first, 200% of median income of the area next etc). At least that will remove the argument that non-merit based people will benefit with removal of country quotas.

4. Once the lottery is removed and we also remove country-caps, we effectively have a capitalistic merit based immigration.

USCIS already had the fix back in 2010,11 and most of 12 when they insisted on Employee-Employer relation while applying for H1. Do you know that in 2011 H1's quota was filled in the 2nd quarter of FY 2011? They were a self funded organization which was used to getting their biggest funds on first week of April. So they quietly withdrew the mandate some time in 2012.

With the economy booming back again in 2013, and to satisfy the urge of the companies appetite for labor at below market wages, they came up with I-140 approval for a previous company enable people to renew H1 unlimited times for the new company without bothering for the employees GC filing. Throw in a 3 year OPT, USCIS made sure of their full revenue. As you can see, in 2018 USCIS got the original employee-employer relation back. But 3 year OPT resulted in 90K regular applicants along with 90 K Masters.

They accepted spurious petitions from 2013 onward for H1B. In 2017 they come up with a regulation all the renewals will be checked with more aggressive intent. Lot of H1's got rejected with the new mandate. The 3 year old H1's get recycled with new H1's which really pushes the wages down, while USCIS get their fees and money.

It gives me chuckles when people talk about merit based, salary based improvement without understanding the ground reality. USCIS, companies, lawyers need this clog(read revenue stream) to continue.

To put it down bluntly your point by point facts makes a good valid read and can score lot of brownie points in a college debate. So why ask for 300% of the mean income? Ask for 1000% of the mean income, similar to the CATO statement which said Indians will have 150 years wait for their GC.

But the hard reality is every single H1 candidate is a freaking cash cow for lot of groups in this country. Starting with USCIS, DHS, DMV (renewals with every H1), Lawyers, Home rental leasing, Car leasing, Mortgage points for being an immigrant, Banks giving secure cards, Medical insurance, Auto insurance and on and on.

Add the B1/B2 extended family we bring our home country for every 6 months. Add the visitor insurance

People in the high echelon wants this Indian cash cows to come in line every year and deliver. I had to tell you this because, H1B is not cheap as people tend to project.

Oh and BTW the country caps are not going anywhere, nor the lottery system. The system is truly capitalist, abundant supply of quality people at a relatively lower price.

[Sydneycl]

Those were better days

[qesehmk]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

[EB2IndSep09]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

Q,
We all are hanging on that SO number for next year. Hope the current administration is not going to screw up this big time.
I am not politically inclined to either political party as without voting right I cannot influence either one (may be my perspective).
Grievance is with both parties as each party works for their own benefit (nothing wrong we all as humans do the same) but there should be some basic ethics which are missing in them. You brought up a very good example of USPS fiasco and see how Nancy called for a House meeting even after they adjourned for the season and sorted that out because it benefits their party. Why she did not react with the same urgency when USCIS (may not be completely funded by government) declared crisis? dual stand like that makes me frustated.

You are right a cleaner insight by publishing numbers into the fair usage of visa numbers would have been helped for people not to speculate on the wastage.

[alpha0]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

Well, most likely it is more that a little wastege. Eb2 India moved from May 12 to July 8 in the year when consulates are closed and ROW is current. And those few thousands wastage (will need to wait till they announce final numbers) would have helped move Eb2 India a lot. Wastage is ok for ROW because it will dealy their GC just by few months, but for Eb2+3 India, this was once in a decade sort of windfall opportunity and agency screwed it up royally.

My logic for 25 k wastage is simple - they did not process 16k spillover (from previous year FB) plus about 10k or so which would have processed by consulates in regular year in 7-8 months. Why work more when you get same salary@?

I am prettry sure someone must be making plans right now on how to screw up 100k spillover next year.

[qesehmk]

@EB2Ind - clearly Nancy thought USPS is a big deal compared to USCIS. And mind you it is. But your point is valid. Every party has their favorite topics shaped by their interests and their constituencies interests .... and that's how democracies work!

@alpha -we will know about wastage. My "gut" feel is that a good chunk of what you think is "wastage" is going to be diverted towards some "unforeseen" ROW or Phillippines EB demand. Right now I must admit - it is just a conjecture.

[AceMan]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

Yes, I have to agree with you on this. A little to the left, a little to the right was always the norm in America. The big change was Obama who got elected with the support from the left and youngsters tried to please the right with his over the top actions as far as ICE is concerned in pushing out the illegals, and separating the kids from parents with very little compassion. He was keen on his preserving his legacy once he got the second term, he did nothing for Police brutality or black lives matter when he was in power. His legacy is delivering us the Trump train.

Even now I see the national channels kind of taken for granted the Biden win. The same kind of stuff Rachel Maddow was famous for in 2016. Trump does not have any policy, he is just running a reality show, which America fell for in 2016, will they fall for it again on November 2020?

[qesehmk]

Yes, I have to agree with you on this. A little to the left, a little to the right was always the norm in America. The big change was Obama who got elected with the support from the left and youngsters tried to please the right with his over the top actions as far as ICE is concerned in pushing out the illegals, and separating the kids from parents with very little compassion. He was keen on his preserving his legacy once he got the second term, he did nothing for Police brutality or black lives matter when he was in power. His legacy is delivering us the Trump train.

Even now I see the national channels kind of taken for granted the Biden win. The same kind of stuff Rachel Maddow was famous for in 2016. Trump does not have any policy, he is just running a reality show, which America fell for in 2016, will they fall for it again on November 2020?

Can't agree with Obama observations. Republicans have moved more and more on the crazy side since Vietnam. Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Now Trump. Obama only brought out the visceral hatred and racism on the far right. If Trump wins second term, then IMHO deep state will be dead forever and America's days as the undisputed world superpower will end much sooner.