Discussion On The Politics of Immigration Reform (Comprehensive Or Otherwise)

[axecapone]

Not well said, but I agree completely with the intended message.

I agree with his message as well. As much as America is a liberal country, its also a law abiding country and as a law abiding immigrant who has come through the right channels, I don't feel its right to give away citizenship like giving away Halloween candies. What happens when a legal immigrant on visa loses his job? He may have a house, a car and kids going to school but DHS does not care. He is asked to pack up and LEAVE and legal immigrants. Hell, they don't even give you enough time to wrap up things.

Now lets look at the current situation. Now not only did folks enter illegally into the US but thanks to amendments for THEM, we, honest, legal, law abiding folks are again on the losing side. How is that fair? Its not fair. People who want to pass the bill also know its not fair but they are doing it because of the 17% vote bank that they can capture.

Anyway my 2 cents, not that it matter now.

[indiani]

I agree with his message as well. As much as America is a liberal country, its also a law abiding country and as a law abiding immigrant who has come through the right channels, I don't feel its right to give away citizenship like giving away Halloween candies. What happens when a legal immigrant on visa loses his job? He may have a house, a car and kids going to school but DHS does not care. He is asked to pack up and LEAVE and legal immigrants. Hell, they don't even give you enough time to wrap up things.

Now lets look at the current situation. Now not only did folks enter illegally into the US but thanks to amendments for THEM, we, honest, legal, law abiding folks are again on the losing side. How is that fair? Its not fair. People who want to pass the bill also know its not fair but they are doing it because of the 17% vote bank that they can capture.

Anyway my 2 cents, not that it matter now.

I also have more or less the same feeling.

coming to this country after finishing medical school, waiting for 13 years and , has always been worried about losing "status" and probably anxiety will not die until few onths after GC.

however just b'cos its politically convinient, Democrats nd some republicans are racing to give away GC and eventual citizenship to millions.

Inspite of all the economic parameters in the news, I look at the economic impact this way: any developed country will easily can get millions of unskilled labor to be part of their country by opening borders and just doing criminal check. But in fact most rich countries give mostly temporary status to limited few and permanent status in even fewer cases, at the same time for high skilled person, its easy to migrate ( logic is simple, highly skilled people are good for any nation in the long run )

having said all above, even though CIR doesn't help me personally, for everyone waiting for GC (legals+illegals ) that is the single best thing to happen as a whole ( no other bill will be introduced in the near future), i have been still lobbying for CIR to pass ( still very actively ) with all my time restraints.

[idiotic]

The choices before us are simple :
1) Support CIR as a whole group against the forces who are standing inbetween
2) Live with present state

I do not see a reason for us to think in the lines of illegal vs legal. Under CIR all present legal queue will be cleared before an "Illegal" gets his GC. There is no reason for "legals" to complain about this.
If other people gets Citizenship too, so be it. They have lives too !! They came here for a better life and let them get it !! Some of the illegals are illegal for even no fault of their own. Even though under law they are illegal, under the spirit of the law they are not. I think Obama took executive action only for those group(Children brought to USA by illegal parents).

I think all of us want option 1. Lets fight only the forces who are standing against it. My opinion is only republicans are standing in between !! I am not seeing any democrat standing in between (If you say democrat is not agreeing to reasonable proposal from Republican, prove me with the details)!!
The only group which like option 2 will be those who suck the blood of immigrants(legal or illegal).

Gang of 8 had polticians like McCain who stated clearly he is supporting only because he did not like the exploitation of immigrants. I think all of us should support and respect that.

Disclaimer:
============
I am a legal immigrant too.. Not even 1 second out of status in this country..
I am not democrat

[qesehmk]

Guys ... all of us have come legally here. I think sometimes we lose perspective how fortunate we are vs those that aren't. Instead of being jealous that illegals will "someday" get citizenship - just think about their plight. I live in Arizona and I see it first hand. These people work for $6/hour. Are constantly afraid and live a third rate life in the shadows where they are exploited from all sides and all angles. Going back is worse and so they prefer to live like this. Their children grow up in low income houses with high crime around and low opportunities.

You and I - most of the times earn 6 figures or very high 5 figures. In some cases I know some of us earn half million as well. The only thing we missed was - I could've earned twice of that.

So if we keep this perspective in mind then we might feel less bad about others getting a citizenship 10-20 years from now. I agree I felt quite upset ... but I guess I somehow correlate this tendency to be utterly oblivious to others' plight to the same tendency we see in Indian society where we have treated our own people with utter disrespect and oppressed them for years and years. I smelt the same carelessness here and I reacted. May be I was wrong. But if past is any experience - I probably wasn't.

Perhaps now I have explained my thought process better. I do think everybody has a right to speak but then right to speak comes with right to listen to criticism. So by all means criticize me if you think I am wrong.

p.s. - Another practical thing not to be forgotten is that EB reform is happening on the back of CIR - not vice versa. So speaking against "illegals" is - using my favorite metaphor - is worse than "Peir pe kulhadi" and amounts to "Kulhadi pe peir".

[idiotic]

http://sgtreport.com/2013/06/nwo-min...ted-every-day/

Either support the video or support those who commented on the page

[indiani]

Guys ... all of us have come legally here. I think sometimes we lose perspective how fortunate we are vs those that aren't. Instead of being jealous that illegals will "someday" get citizenship - just think about their plight. I live in Arizona and I see it first hand. These people work for $6/hour. Are constantly afraid and live a third rate life in the shadows where they are exploited from all sides and all angles. Going back is worse and so they prefer to live like this. Their children grow up in low income houses with high crime around and low opportunities.

You and I - most of the times earn 6 figures or very high 5 figures. In some cases I know some of us earn half million as well. The only thing we missed was - I could've earned twice of that.

So if we keep this perspective in mind then we might feel less bad about others getting a citizenship 10-20 years from now. I agree I felt quite upset ... but I guess I somehow correlate this tendency to be utterly oblivious to others' plight to the same tendency we see in Indian society and oppressed them for years and years. I smelt the same carelessness here and I reacted. May be I was wrong. But if past is any experience - I probably wasn't.

Perhaps now I have explained my thought process better. I do think everybody has a right to speak but then right to speak comes with right to listen to criticism. So by all means criticize me if you think I am wrong.

p.s. - Another practical thing not to be forgotten is that EB reform is happening on the back of CIR - not vice versa. So speaking against "illegals" is - using my favorite metaphor - is worse than "Peir pe kulhadi" and amounts to "Kulhadi pe peir".

Your last point is excellent one and I completely agree that without "pathway for illegals' indian backlog would have been there for decades to come.

Having said that I want to give perspective ( everyone develops one b'cos of unique life circumstances):

1. "where we have treated our own people with utter disrespect " : not everyone ill-treated, atleast not me (in fact i was at the receiving end for being born in the wrong caste wrong time , i belong to "OC")

2. Money was never my worry ( even though i could have made 100K plus more per year), in fact I lost lot of things that I value lot more than money.

3. illegals are exploited for sure but they still "chose" to stay. for example many indian manual laborers are ill-treated in middle east ( far worse than illegals treated in USA ) but I doubt they ever get atleast human rights , well once again they chose to stay there instead of dying in india

[gs1968]

I am glad to see that the tone of discussion is back to where we all like it. I am a pediatrician with a very large Spanish patient base and meet families who are not in legal status on a daily basis and perhaps have a better perspective of where the discussion stands amongst them.
I feel it might be easier to illustrate with a few examples I have had recently as the stories will illustrate their plight better than pages of prose. Last year as I was getting ready for our lunch break,a mother and her son aged 17 whom I have known for 7 years came to meet me. The boy was the oldest of 3 children the younger two being citizens being born here.He was a high school senior and was really excited about the DACA order that President Obama had recently passed. I helped him with a lot of documentation from office records dating back to 2006 to establish proof of residency and also agreed to attest a notarized affidavit for the same.The family said that the school authorities were not receptive to their needs and they had no other alternative than to approach us. He was granted the status and he was ecstatic-his actual words were "I never thought I would ever get this chance".More recently he has joined the nursing program at our local community college and thanked us again when he came in to have his TB skin testing done. It pained me when the house GOP passed the amendment defunding the DACA on Jun 6 but I feel it was posturing at its best and most of them are sympathetic to DREAMERs
I have another child in my practice who is 4 and his mother was deported 2 years ago to Guatemala.As she had re-entered illegally she was barred from entry for 10 years.I am struggling with behavioral and sleep problems in this child who is awake most of the night screaming for his mother. The father will not send him to Guatemala as he is afraid they will keep the child there and never send him back. I can close my eyes and count at least 20 other children where one of the parents has been deported in my practice
I have 2 children in my practice whose father and their uncle (in their 30s now) migrated illegally from Honduras 10 years ago. They are the only 2 children of their grandmother who is still back in the Honduras with advanced uterine cancer. It was heart breaking for me when the children's mother told me in Spanish "Whenever we call her all she keeps saying is if I could only hug the boys for 5 minutes before I die" Unfortunately both the parents are illegal and even though the children (ages 3 & 5) are citizens there is nobody to take them there.
I could go on and on but the only reason I bring this up is that in all the above cases all the families are looking for is some legal status where they can lead a normal life and be able to travel to their home countries and be able to return safely.I can assure you that citizenship is the furthest thing from their minds at this time. I quote from Rep Carter (TX) one of the House Group of 8 in the following article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3180612.html
It (the House Bill)has compassion. It allows people to be human beings, to live a normal life, to have a job, to take care of their family, to pay their taxes, to obey the law and go about their lives."
The Republicans will not likely agree to a Special pathway to citizenship like W visas etc but will allow some form of legalization that allows people to stay here and continue to lead their lives and be united with their family. They will most likely be allowed to convert to Green cards through existing channels examples being if they have US born children or have US spouses who can sponsor them or employment based sponsorship etc. We keep talking about pressure on the GOP but if the talks reach a point where the GOP stands firm and is willing for legalization but no special pathway, the winds can change just as quick and the Democrats will be under pressure to accept the deal from the Latino community. At least deportations will stop and families can stay together,travel abroad, buy homes etc. Qs point about whether this makes them second class citizens can be debated till the cows come home.I wish to point out that at any time in this country there are millions of people who are in legal non-immigrant status and seem to lead normal lives

[vizcard]

Gs - excellent post. Any legal status is a win for the illegals here.

I personally don't like the idea of not having a pathway to citizenship because every legal immigrant should have the opportunity to naturalize. By giving current illegals an RPI or green card implies you are making them legal immigrants.

Push comes to shove, I would be willing to support taking out the P2C in favor of passing everything else.

The other solution (and I say this tongue in cheek) is to do what this congress does best - punt on the hard issues. Pass the easy stuff now, introduce a new bill later to solve the hard problem like the sequesters.

[indiani]

I am glad to see that the tone of discussion is back to where we all like it. I am a pediatrician with a very large Spanish patient base and meet families who are not in legal status on a daily basis and perhaps have a better perspective of where the discussion stands amongst them.
I feel it might be easier to illustrate with a few examples I have had recently as the stories will illustrate their plight better than pages of prose. Last year as I was getting ready for our lunch break,a mother and her son aged 17 whom I have known for 7 years came to meet me. The boy was the oldest of 3 children the younger two being citizens being born here.He was a high school senior and was really excited about the DACA order that President Obama had recently passed. I helped him with a lot of documentation from office records dating back to 2006 to establish proof of residency and also agreed to attest a notarized affidavit for the same.The family said that the school authorities were not receptive to their needs and they had no other alternative than to approach us. He was granted the status and he was ecstatic-his actual words were "I never thought I would ever get this chance".More recently he has joined the nursing program at our local community college and thanked us again when he came in to have his TB skin testing done. It pained me when the house GOP passed the amendment defunding the DACA on Jun 6 but I feel it was posturing at its best and most of them are sympathetic to DREAMERs
I have another child in my practice who is 4 and his mother was deported 2 years ago to Guatemala.As she had re-entered illegally she was barred from entry for 10 years.I am struggling with behavioral and sleep problems in this child who is awake most of the night screaming for his mother. The father will not send him to Guatemala as he is afraid they will keep the child there and never send him back. I can close my eyes and count at least 20 other children where one of the parents has been deported in my practice
I have 2 children in my practice whose father and their uncle (in their 30s now) migrated illegally from Honduras 10 years ago. They are the only 2 children of their grandmother who is still back in the Honduras with advanced uterine cancer. It was heart breaking for me when the children's mother told me in Spanish "Whenever we call her all she keeps saying is if I could only hug the boys for 5 minutes before I die" Unfortunately both the parents are illegal and even though the children (ages 3 & 5) are citizens there is nobody to take them there.
I could go on and on but the only reason I bring this up is that in all the above cases all the families are looking for is some legal status where they can lead a normal life and be able to travel to their home countries and be able to return safely.I can assure you that citizenship is the furthest thing from their minds at this time. I quote from Rep Carter (TX) one of the House Group of 8 in the following article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3180612.html
It (the House Bill)has compassion. It allows people to be human beings, to live a normal life, to have a job, to take care of their family, to pay their taxes, to obey the law and go about their lives."
The Republicans will not likely agree to a Special pathway to citizenship like W visas etc but will allow some form of legalization that allows people to stay here and continue to lead their lives and be united with their family. They will most likely be allowed to convert to Green cards through existing channels examples being if they have US born children or have US spouses who can sponsor them or employment based sponsorship etc. We keep talking about pressure on the GOP but if the talks reach a point where the GOP stands firm and is willing for legalization but no special pathway, the winds can change just as quick and the Democrats will be under pressure to accept the deal from the Latino community. At least deportations will stop and families can stay together,travel abroad, buy homes etc. Qs point about whether this makes them second class citizens can be debated till the cows come home.I wish to point out that at any time in this country there are millions of people who are in legal non-immigrant status and seem to lead normal lives

I read almost the entire post, I think the perceptions and opinions differ based on the life experiences, but I can give you the perspective of someone ( US citizen who cleans places for a living ) who is worried that their jobs could be taken away b'cos once all the illegals get EAD's they can change jobs and be eligible to work for any job that currently citizens are eligible for.

They aren't stuck anymore like legals to work in the same or similar job until GC, so essentailly it works as their "GC" right away and they will be eligible to compete for jobs in grocery stores, food chains etc. for which working class citizens (blue collar workers ) struggle to find. For the last 13 years all the people whom I ever hired for doing household work are "citizens" and most of them are hard working.

I hope you don't assume everyone who opposes for any legalisation is a bigot. Personally i have a lot to gain for reasons you can imagine with CIR passing but I think there are US citizens ( esp. blue collar) who have their own concerns .

[abcx13]

I am glad to see that the tone of discussion is back to where we all like it. I am a pediatrician with a very large Spanish patient base and meet families who are not in legal status on a daily basis and perhaps have a better perspective of where the discussion stands amongst them.
I feel it might be easier to illustrate with a few examples I have had recently as the stories will illustrate their plight better than pages of prose. Last year as I was getting ready for our lunch break,a mother and her son aged 17 whom I have known for 7 years came to meet me. The boy was the oldest of 3 children the younger two being citizens being born here.He was a high school senior and was really excited about the DACA order that President Obama had recently passed. I helped him with a lot of documentation from office records dating back to 2006 to establish proof of residency and also agreed to attest a notarized affidavit for the same.The family said that the school authorities were not receptive to their needs and they had no other alternative than to approach us. He was granted the status and he was ecstatic-his actual words were "I never thought I would ever get this chance".More recently he has joined the nursing program at our local community college and thanked us again when he came in to have his TB skin testing done. It pained me when the house GOP passed the amendment defunding the DACA on Jun 6 but I feel it was posturing at its best and most of them are sympathetic to DREAMERs
I have another child in my practice who is 4 and his mother was deported 2 years ago to Guatemala.As she had re-entered illegally she was barred from entry for 10 years.I am struggling with behavioral and sleep problems in this child who is awake most of the night screaming for his mother. The father will not send him to Guatemala as he is afraid they will keep the child there and never send him back. I can close my eyes and count at least 20 other children where one of the parents has been deported in my practice
I have 2 children in my practice whose father and their uncle (in their 30s now) migrated illegally from Honduras 10 years ago. They are the only 2 children of their grandmother who is still back in the Honduras with advanced uterine cancer. It was heart breaking for me when the children's mother told me in Spanish "Whenever we call her all she keeps saying is if I could only hug the boys for 5 minutes before I die" Unfortunately both the parents are illegal and even though the children (ages 3 & 5) are citizens there is nobody to take them there.
I could go on and on but the only reason I bring this up is that in all the above cases all the families are looking for is some legal status where they can lead a normal life and be able to travel to their home countries and be able to return safely.I can assure you that citizenship is the furthest thing from their minds at this time. I quote from Rep Carter (TX) one of the House Group of 8 in the following article
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3180612.html
It (the House Bill)has compassion. It allows people to be human beings, to live a normal life, to have a job, to take care of their family, to pay their taxes, to obey the law and go about their lives."
The Republicans will not likely agree to a Special pathway to citizenship like W visas etc but will allow some form of legalization that allows people to stay here and continue to lead their lives and be united with their family. They will most likely be allowed to convert to Green cards through existing channels examples being if they have US born children or have US spouses who can sponsor them or employment based sponsorship etc. We keep talking about pressure on the GOP but if the talks reach a point where the GOP stands firm and is willing for legalization but no special pathway, the winds can change just as quick and the Democrats will be under pressure to accept the deal from the Latino community. At least deportations will stop and families can stay together,travel abroad, buy homes etc. Qs point about whether this makes them second class citizens can be debated till the cows come home.I wish to point out that at any time in this country there are millions of people who are in legal non-immigrant status and seem to lead normal lives

Um, sorry, but no. Give GCs and citizenship to Dreamers but I see no reason to reward illegals who were irresponsible in the first place to have kids. A lot of these people don't have the means to support kids and now we should cut them slack just because they have kids and their families could be separated? Sure, cut the kids slack, but the parents? Really? I realize that separating families hurts the kids so maybe give the parents GCs, but no citizenship. If I were a citizen, why the hell would I want these people to vote? They have shown a blatant disregard for the law and clearly have no sense of responsibility by having kids for whom they can't provide because of their immigration or economic status. Besides, if legals can't get GCs for being out of status (see the recent I485 RFEs from the TSC) why the hell should illegals get GCs, let alone citizenship, for being out of status? Because there are 11m of them and because they've been out of status forever? That's a dumb non-reason.

I realize this sounds ugly but it is what it is.

[abcx13]

Guys ... all of us have come legally here. I think sometimes we lose perspective how fortunate we are vs those that aren't. Instead of being jealous that illegals will "someday" get citizenship - just think about their plight. I live in Arizona and I see it first hand. These people work for $6/hour. Are constantly afraid and live a third rate life in the shadows where they are exploited from all sides and all angles. Going back is worse and so they prefer to live like this. Their children grow up in low income houses with high crime around and low opportunities.

So if we keep this perspective in mind then we might feel less bad about others getting a citizenship 10-20 years from now. I agree I felt quite upset ... but I guess I somehow correlate this tendency to be utterly oblivious to others' plight to the same tendency we see in Indian society where we have treated our own people with utter disrespect and oppressed them for years and years.

p.s. - Another practical thing not to be forgotten is that EB reform is happening on the back of CIR - not vice versa. So speaking against "illegals" is - using my favorite metaphor - is worse than "Peir pe kulhadi" and amounts to "Kulhadi pe peir".

1. I'm not 'jealous' that they are getting citizenship. Anyone would have to be moronic to be jealous of illegals. It's a matter of fairness. They didn't follow the law and it is unfair to reward them with even the possibility of citizenship just for having the skill of staying illegally.

2. I don't agree that going back is worse for them. What about all the ones who stay in their home countries? In any case, it's still a choice they are making. They are free to leave if they don't like the laws of the country that they seem to have invaded.

3. I would treat them with respect if they obeyed the law and played by the same rules. But until then, I really don't see why my tax dollars are going to provide any services to these people, or, yes, even their kids, when they aren't putting their fair share into the system. Yes, I feel cheated. Why is it my duty to educate the kids of illegals - born overseas or here - if their parents can't support them? I'd rather have lower taxes and donate that money to educate kids in India or elsewhere.

4. EB reform could have happened a long time ago if it were not for a spineless President who is insistent on tying job creating, economy boosting high-skilled immigration to unskilled, non-law abiding, typically non-English speaking, and non-self sufficient fence jumpers and visa overstays.

[Jonty Rhodes]

immitime - I am afraid this question is on the right of the extreme right wingers.
The answer is because they are human beings ... have ties here in US .. may be spent most of their life here. So what makes one eligible for citizenship? Some stupid circumstance that you were born in the right womb at the right time and place and were lucky that your family were able to do grow you up where you could legally immigrate?

In your book it seems the people who are not so fortunate have no place in this society. That's a very unfortunate elitist approach I must say. But fortunately America's true character is very liberal and most Americans do not think the way you think. It's all the more shameful that you speak as you do while still being on the other side.

Q,

With due respect, I tend to disagree with you on this one. I think immitime raised a pretty valid question. I personally do not have any problem with pathway to citizenship to illegals but immitime has a point here. For Democrats, this is their future vote bank. They are not only doing this from a humanistic stand point. Republicans on the other side are willing to do it, especially in the Senate, because they know that they can also woo Hispanics to vote for them in next elections if they pass Immigration Reform. If Republicans don't do it, as many experts have analysed, they will not be in White House again. Now, anybody can disagree with this analysis but the fact remains that both parties have their own reasons to support CIR.

Because both parties have their own interests driving them to pass CIR, both parties have to compromise on several important principles that may be dear to them, in good faith of the bill, just like Leahy dropped the LGBT amendment in the judiciary mark up (although he came up with that later on). Then and only then, it will be a real bipartisan bill. That is why I agree with immitime again. I would disagree with Republicans for the poison pill amendments that they have introduced to kill the bill, like Cornyn border security and several others. But I would also disagree with the Democrats on insisting to get the federal health care benefits for illegals. That is just unsustainable for the health care system in my eyes, and an unnecessary burden on law abiding tax paying legal immigrants, permanent resident and citizens.

I seriously did not feel that immitime's question was on the right of the extreme right wingers. In fact, immitime has divided things black (law-breaking people) vs white (law-abiding people) which is not necessarily wrong while looking at it objectively. When you add humanistic angle to the immigration reform, things become grey and the line between right and wrong starts getting blurred. But no where, I felt that immitime's comment was elitist in nature and that he did not have regards for people who are less fortunate. There is nothing shameful in what immitime said and in fact, if you ask people, majority may agree with him.

I have nothing personal against illegals. In fact, I have worked in a free community clinic in Chicago for 3 years as a volunteer treating illegals only and every now and then, you stumble upon a sad story or tragedy. It is unfortunate but that's life. Ideal things happen in ideal world and unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

Just to give you a simple example. When illegal Bangladeshi immigrants come in India, again there will be same humanistic arguments (poverty in Bangladesh, better job opportunity in India, better life compared to Bangladesh etc.) but at the end of the day, the fact remains that their constant flow has changed demographics in Assam and now the native Bodo tribe has become a minority, losing their land and is facing a discrimination. Politicians have provided them ration cards and voter identification cards to get votes from last many years. Eventual Result: Assam Riots.

Now, obviously this can't be compared to US immigration but concept is similar. Protecting country's citizens and their interests, should be the primary aim of any immigration policy and the debate of how to do that is wide open and very partisan unfortunately.

CIR is a tricky issue and emotions run high. But I think we all should be pragmatic because we don't live in a Utopian world.

Sorry, not trying to be preachy. Just my humble opinion.

P.S: immitime, I hope you are reading this and I sincerely wish you come back to this forum. You have been a very valuable member of the forum and have contributed immensely to it. Don't have a fall out on this minor issue of difference of opinions. Peace.

[idiotic]

http://www.fwd.us/commit

For those of you who want to see S.744 become law.. please spend few minutes on the above link and support..

[indiani]

Jonty,

I think Q welcomes any opinion ( I did differ with him a lot of times ) but the reply to Q from immitime appeared somewhat like a personal attack ( at atleast thats my perception ).

I like this forum lot better than trackitt or **.

I think Dems like lot of folks in lower socio-economic status ( they depend on handouts ),

Bottomline: no matter whats anyone's opinions are, when it comes to action pls do everything you can to pass CIR ( this is only a request, not demand ) and I did whatever i could.

[gcq]

In the discussions about legal vs illegal, "we all came legal here" arguments, there is one point we tend to miss. Neither us or the Europeans who consider USA as if it is their land have no right to be here to begin with. This continent is North America ( not Europe, not Asia). If anyone can claim any right to this land , it would be Hispanics They at least belong to this continent. We all ( including the Europeans who claim this to be their country ) are all immigrants/invaders.

Hispanics has every right to say "WTH, this is our continent, what are these Europeans and Asians doing here ?"

[abcx13]

Q,

With due respect, I tend to disagree with you on this one. I think immitime raised a pretty valid question. I personally do not have any problem with pathway to citizenship to illegals but immitime has a point here. For Democrats, this is their future vote bank. They are not only doing this from a humanistic stand point. Republicans on the other side are willing to do it, especially in the Senate, because they know that they can also woo Hispanics to vote for them in next elections if they pass Immigration Reform. If Republicans don't do it, as many experts have analysed, they will not be in White House again. Now, anybody can disagree with this analysis but the fact remains that both parties have their own reasons to support CIR.

Because both parties have their own interests driving them to pass CIR, both parties have to compromise on several important principles that may be dear to them, in good faith of the bill, just like Leahy dropped the LGBT amendment in the judiciary mark up (although he came up with that later on). Then and only then, it will be a real bipartisan bill. That is why I agree with immitime again. I would disagree with Republicans for the poison pill amendments that they have introduced to kill the bill, like Cornyn border security and several others. But I would also disagree with the Democrats on insisting to get the federal health care benefits for illegals. That is just unsustainable for the health care system in my eyes, and an unnecessary burden on law abiding tax paying legal immigrants, permanent resident and citizens.

I seriously did not feel that immitime's question was on the right of the extreme right wingers. In fact, immitime has divided things black (law-breaking people) vs white (law-abiding people) which is not necessarily wrong while looking at it objectively. When you add humanistic angle to the immigration reform, things become grey and the line between right and wrong starts getting blurred. But no where, I felt that immitime's comment was elitist in nature and that he did not have regards for people who are less fortunate. There is nothing shameful in what immitime said and in fact, if you ask people, majority may agree with him.

I have nothing personal against illegals. In fact, I have worked in a free community clinic in Chicago for 3 years as a volunteer treating illegals only and every now and then, you stumble upon a sad story or tragedy. It is unfortunate but that's life. Ideal things happen in ideal world and unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

Just to give you a simple example. When illegal Bangladeshi immigrants come in India, again there will be same humanistic arguments (poverty in Bangladesh, better job opportunity in India, better life compared to Bangladesh etc.) but at the end of the day, the fact remains that their constant flow has changed demographics in Assam and now the native Bodo tribe has become a minority, losing their land and is facing a discrimination. Politicians have provided them ration cards and voter identification cards to get votes from last many years. Eventual Result: Assam Riots.

Now, obviously this can't be compared to US immigration but concept is similar. Protecting country's citizens and their interests, should be the primary aim of any immigration policy and the debate of how to do that is wide open and very partisan unfortunately.

CIR is a tricky issue and emotions run high. But I think we all should be pragmatic because we don't live in a Utopian world.

Sorry, not trying to be preachy. Just my humble opinion.

P.S: immitime, I hope you are reading this and I sincerely wish you come back to this forum. You have been a very valuable member of the forum and have contributed immensely to it. Don't have a fall out on this minor issue of difference of opinions. Peace.

Well said! Couldn't have said it better.

[GhostWriter]

+1 to the list of JontyRhodes, abcx13, immitime and others.

I think JontyRhodes laid it out pretty well.
Q, supporting PR instead of Citizenship for someone who broke the law does not make any one less compassionate in my opinion. I don't think immitime's point of view was on the "right of the right" of the political spectrum. He was not talking about deporting anyone, he was not talking about the status quo and not legalizing illegals. Your comment about being born in the right womb sounds touchy but that is the reality and not an elitist view. Your place of birth determines your citizenship and if you want to change that you need to follow the laws of the destination country (or have the power to conquer it).
I used to be Democrat leaning (in spite of being fiscally conservative) because I usually have liberal views on social issues, but last one year has changed my views. The shameless pursuit of latino vote by the Democrats and their use of legal immigrants as a bait to negotiate with Republicans does not leave them with any higher moral standards that they can boast of.
If I ever (and that as we all know is a big If) get a green card and then a citizenship my vote will go to the party that wanted me here (more than the other). Let the democrats get the 11m votes but they did lose mine (not that it would matter).
I agree with you that the fate of legal immigration has for the time being been tied to CIR (and the fate of illegal immigrants) but that is again a result of dirty politics and not necessarily how it should be (or who knows how it will be in future).

Q,

With due respect, I tend to disagree with you on this one. I think immitime raised a pretty valid question. I personally do not have any problem with pathway to citizenship to illegals but immitime has a point here. For Democrats, this is their future vote bank. They are not only doing this from a humanistic stand point. Republicans on the other side are willing to do it, especially in the Senate, because they know that they can also woo Hispanics to vote for them in next elections if they pass Immigration Reform. If Republicans don't do it, as many experts have analysed, they will not be in White House again. Now, anybody can disagree with this analysis but the fact remains that both parties have their own reasons to support CIR.

Because both parties have their own interests driving them to pass CIR, both parties have to compromise on several important principles that may be dear to them, in good faith of the bill, just like Leahy dropped the LGBT amendment in the judiciary mark up (although he came up with that later on). Then and only then, it will be a real bipartisan bill. That is why I agree with immitime again. I would disagree with Republicans for the poison pill amendments that they have introduced to kill the bill, like Cornyn border security and several others. But I would also disagree with the Democrats on insisting to get the federal health care benefits for illegals. That is just unsustainable for the health care system in my eyes, and an unnecessary burden on law abiding tax paying legal immigrants, permanent resident and citizens.

I seriously did not feel that immitime's question was on the right of the extreme right wingers. In fact, immitime has divided things black (law-breaking people) vs white (law-abiding people) which is not necessarily wrong while looking at it objectively. When you add humanistic angle to the immigration reform, things become grey and the line between right and wrong starts getting blurred. But no where, I felt that immitime's comment was elitist in nature and that he did not have regards for people who are less fortunate. There is nothing shameful in what immitime said and in fact, if you ask people, majority may agree with him.

I have nothing personal against illegals. In fact, I have worked in a free community clinic in Chicago for 3 years as a volunteer treating illegals only and every now and then, you stumble upon a sad story or tragedy. It is unfortunate but that's life. Ideal things happen in ideal world and unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

Just to give you a simple example. When illegal Bangladeshi immigrants come in India, again there will be same humanistic arguments (poverty in Bangladesh, better job opportunity in India, better life compared to Bangladesh etc.) but at the end of the day, the fact remains that their constant flow has changed demographics in Assam and now the native Bodo tribe has become a minority, losing their land and is facing a discrimination. Politicians have provided them ration cards and voter identification cards to get votes from last many years. Eventual Result: Assam Riots.

Now, obviously this can't be compared to US immigration but concept is similar. Protecting country's citizens and their interests, should be the primary aim of any immigration policy and the debate of how to do that is wide open and very partisan unfortunately.

CIR is a tricky issue and emotions run high. But I think we all should be pragmatic because we don't live in a Utopian world.

Sorry, not trying to be preachy. Just my humble opinion.

P.S: immitime, I hope you are reading this and I sincerely wish you come back to this forum. You have been a very valuable member of the forum and have contributed immensely to it. Don't have a fall out on this minor issue of difference of opinions. Peace.

[idiotic]

http://www.sandiegored.com/noticias/...rants-to-Dogs/


FYI...

From what I learnt in my life, if you have "real" respect for anyone you won't compare them to dogs even in your sleep...

[indiani]

In the discussions about legal vs illegal, "we all came legal here" arguments, there is one point we tend to miss. Neither us or the Europeans who consider USA as if it is their land have no right to be here to begin with. This continent is North America ( not Europe, not Asia). If anyone can claim any right to this land , it would be Hispanics They at least belong to this continent. We all ( including the Europeans who claim this to be their country ) are all immigrants/invaders.

Hispanics has every right to say "WTH, this is our continent, what are these Europeans and Asians doing here ?"

I don't even know how to respond to your post as i find it illogical and don't even understand what you think should happen.

every white/asian (race ) in this country who are citizenship by birth should leave and go to europe / asia and all "hispanics" in the world can stay in USA??

[indiani]

+1 to the list of JontyRhodes, abcx13, immitime and others.

I think JontyRhodes laid it out pretty well.
Q, supporting PR instead of Citizenship for someone who broke the law does not make any one less compassionate in my opinion. I don't think immitime's point of view was on the "right of the right" of the political spectrum. He was not talking about deporting anyone, he was not talking about the status quo and not legalizing illegals. Your comment about being born in the right womb sounds touchy but that is the reality and not an elitist view. Your place of birth determines your citizenship and if you want to change that you need to follow the laws of the destination country (or have the power to conquer it).
I used to be Democrat leaning (in spite of being fiscally conservative) because I usually have liberal views on social issues, but last one year has changed my views. The shameless pursuit of latino vote by the Democrats and their use of legal immigrants as a bait to negotiate with Republicans does not leave them with any higher moral standards that they can boast of.
If I ever (and that as we all know is a big If) get a green card and then a citizenship my vote will go to the party that wanted me here (more than the other). Let the democrats get the 11m votes but they did lose mine (not that it would matter).
I agree with you that the fate of legal immigration has for the time being been tied to CIR (and the fate of illegal immigrants) but that is again a result of dirty politics and not necessarily how it should be (or who knows how it will be in future).

if "legal part" wasn't tied to this current bill and only for "illegals" I suspect more than 90% of the people on this forum would have hated it.

Thats why hispanic causes and dems have held us (legals ) hostage for more than a decade. ( 13 years of chasing a dream and not acheiving ruins lives to some extent ) but it helped obama win 2nd term.

[idiotic]

Thats why hispanic causes and dems have held us (legals ) hostage for more than a decade. but it helped obama win 2nd term.

Please point me to republican legal immigration reform plan which democrats sabotaged.. AFAIK, all immigrant reduction organizations are republican.

[indiani]

Please point me to republican legal immigration reform plan which democrats sabotaged.. AFAIK, all immigrant reduction organizations are republican.

3012 (bipartisan ) : if harry reid wanted to pass this he could have but he didn't care.

obama was ready to sign if it went to his desk, if harry reid would have spared just a few minutes it could have passed.

I know Grassley held it for a while and sessions wasn't big fan either but it has passed with such a majority in house, it could have passed senate if dems wanted to ( senate controlled by dems ) as once brought to vote it could have passed.

[idiotic]

3012 (bipartisan ) : if harry reid wanted to pass this he could have but he didn't care.
obama was ready to sign if it went to his desk, if harry reid would have spared just a few minutes it could have passed.
I know Grassley held it for a while and sessions wasn't big fan either but it has passed with such a majority in house, it could have passed senate if dems wanted to ( senate controlled by dems ) as once brought to vote it could have passed.

It is not that easy. Grassley initially held the bill and later added his H1B reform which is totally an poison pill. If Grassley would have just been quiet, Harry reid would have had no issue in passing it with unanimous consent. Please be fair to people.

Even in house, remember democrats voted for the bill..
http://votesmart.org/bill/votes/37412#.UcU4A_nVCzk
House voting record out of 15 people voted Nay 13 were republicans..

As far as I remember, Grassley's amedment required employers to go through Labor process for each H1B. We all know how much pain labor process is..
And once you start the amendment process, everyone will throw their own monkey ones in.. The only way HR3012 would have passed is unanimous consent. Dems would have quietly passed the 1 page bill if Mr. Grassley did not sabotage.

Harry reid repetedly told HR3012 supporters like TechNet to go and talk to Grassley. Truth is talks broke down due to unreasonable amendments. The bill was always there on Senate calender to pass any day with unanimous consent.

Also, "Future flows" is a nice term for racism..

Adding, were there any other bills where republicans really sweated for legal immigrants? Please point me to same if any. The truth is republicans are enforcement only. Close the borders, reduce the immigration. Just pick the best hunting dogs. That's the truth.

[qesehmk]

Lots of good thoughts to respond to.

Let me start with gs1968 and viz. I think, everything you said makes total sense to me including that citizenship shouldn't be a dealbreaker. As the president has said many times - let's use common sense. Unfortunately congress works on special interests and politics of division.

For the record - my argument is not that legals or illegals should have these rights or that. My point is about standing together with other immigrants preferably on compassionate grounds - but if not - at least for your own self interest.

Jonty I agree about the political reasons why dems and reps are rallying for / against CIR. Lets all agree that all those angles exist. What I would like to warn though is that this forum is meant for immigrants to help themselves and not engage in political mudslinging. It helps nobody. If you look at abcx and immitime - their posts are quite worthless. While I can live with disagreements with both of them, I completely disagree with you that immitime's posts are useful. The reason I am saying this is - invariably both of them tie their arguments to Obama bashing. Both of them engage in using sensational language. It confuses rather than clarifies the topic at hand.

I do think that it is quite shameful to be so myopically focused on personal agenda that one is not only apathetic to other immigrant groups but also rails against them. Unfortunately I would've to disagree with you on that one too.

On Bangladeshi illegal immigrants... I actually believe india should welcome SAARC immigration and regulate it for economic and geo-political reasons. I believe all immigration is good. People immigrate for economic reasons and if we have accepted free flow of capital then humans should also accept free flow of people. Indian government is run since independence by people who have no experience or aptitude for running a state. British created cleric class and handed over India to these morons who have been screwing us ever since. The only time India showed any wisdom in its foreign policy was when Jaswant Singh was the foreign minister. Anyway ... we can have separate discussions on those topics. But coming back to immigration - I think all immigration is good that happens for economic reasons. I am from Maharashtra and I do not like Thackray misusing immigration for his politics. Immigration has helped immigrants and the state of Maharashtra immensely. In fact immigrants invariably go to the land of opportunity. So it is a good thing for a country/place that immigrants come. It is a sign of strength and good fortunes. Same goes with USA.

Finally - I am not so sure that majority people would agree with immitime. Besides the number of people agreeing or disagreeing is not my measure and neither should be yours. Lets use our own moral compass - if not at least act in self interest and not rail against other immigrant groups.

Ghost - who you vote would be your personal choice. I personally would never make such a decision for so silly reason. In the end - politics has its ebb and flows - what's relatively permanent over time is the values that YOU espouse. When I look at the history of the USA, yankees ( who are dems today and were republicans under Lincoln) have been on the right side of history more than the southerners. Of course it is my own perspective. You may have different one.

Indiani - thanks for your kind words. I do think your observation about americans being afraid of illegals taking away their jobs is right. However that is true about legals as well. And it is true about every single profession. You are a physician (hope I got that right). You think AMA would be happy if tomorrow in a bid to lower costs hospitals create accelerated cross country programs between US and India? No way. Poor and rich have their own reasons to oppose any immigration - legal or illegal. So while you observation is right - I wouldn't necessarily draw any conclusion from that because that observation exists across all strata of american society.

This is my last on this topic. All I would say in closing is - even if we ignore moral compass in thinking about illegals - you should at least act in self interest and stand with all other immigrants. My best wishes to all.

[qesehmk]

That is the bottomline. Isn't it. But people sometimes have a tendency to not let facts come in way of a good argument

House voting record out of 15 people voted Nay 13 were republicans..