H1B Received in FY2016 Cap Season was Nearly 233k - Lottery Completed

The number was announced today. That's a 35% increase on last year.

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USCIS Completes the H-1B Cap Random Selection Process for FY 2016

U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) announced on April 7, 2015 that it has received enough H-1B petitions to reach the statutory cap of 65,000 visas for fiscal year (FY) 2016. USCIS has also received more than the limit of 20,000 H-1B petitions filed under the advanced degree exemption, also known as the masters cap.

USCIS received about nearly 233,000 H-1B petitions during the filing period, which began April 1, including petitions filed for the advanced degree exemption. On April 13, USCIS used a computer-generated random selection process, or lottery, to select enough petitions to meet the 65,000 general-category cap and the 20,000 cap under the advanced degree exemption. USCIS will reject and return all unselected petitions with their filing fees, unless the petition is found to be a duplicate filing.

The agency conducted the selection process for the advanced degree exemption first. All unselected advanced degree petitions then became part of the random selection process for the 65,000 limit.

As announced on March 12, 2015, USCIS will begin premium processing for H-1B cap cases no later than May 11, 2015.

USCIS will continue to accept and process petitions that are otherwise exempt from the cap. Petitions filed on behalf of current H-1B workers who have been counted previously against the cap will also not be counted towards the congressionally mandated FY 2016 H-1B cap. USCIS will continue to accept and process petitions filed to:

• Extend the amount of time a current H-1B worker may remain in the United States;
• Change the terms of employment for current H-1B workers;
• Allow current H-1B workers to change employers; and
• Allow current H-1B workers to work concurrently in a second H-1B position.

U.S. businesses use the H-1B program to employ foreign workers in occupations that require highly specialized knowledge in fields such as science, engineering, and computer programming.

For more information on USCIS and its programs, please visit www.uscis.gov or follow us on Twitter (@uscis), YouTube (/uscis) and the USCIS blog The Beacon.

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I cannot believe the way its increasing every year. 2013 was the first year of lottery after recession and USCIS had received 125,000. In 2014, USCIS received 175,000. It's an almost 50,000 increase over last year.

Maybe this exponential increase in applications will cause the companies to pressurize the government to increase the cap as they are the ones losing out on talent/profits.

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Originally Posted by Spectator

The number was announced today. That's a 35% increase on last year.

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Originally Posted by CleanSock

I cannot believe the way its increasing every year. 2013 was the first year of lottery after recession and USCIS had received 125,000. In 2014, USCIS received 175,000. It's an almost 50,000 increase over last year.

Maybe this exponential increase in applications will cause the companies to pressurize the government to increase the cap as they are the ones losing out on talent/profits.

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CleanSock,

Call me a cynic, but I think it is caused by the Companies themselves playing the numbers game.

They know there will be a lottery, so they are putting in far more applications, hoping to get sufficient selected in the lottery.

If the integrity of the H1B system was improved, the numbers problem might well go away. By that, I mean ensuring that the job in the LCA actually exists, barring transfer to another employer/client prior to working for the employer/client specified in the original LCA (the law alreadt y provides for that) and voiding H1B petitions where the beneficiary is not admitted to the USA within a certain time period to start employment with the employer/client specified in the original LCA.

That would stop employers "banking" H1B approvals for future use and ensure that only those with a real job (as specified in the original LCA) use the numbers allocated.

I agree with you. I have seen a lot of people who spent money on education in Us, got a job and didn't get H1 because someone with no education in this country decided to use 2-3 different consultancies to get H1.

I was lucky to make it through last year but my fellow school mates weren't that lucky. Now they have only 30% chance of being selected in the lottery.

Honestly, how difficult is it to implement a uniqueness check based on first and last name and dob? If given a chance I am more than happy to do it for free for them. If they find two applications for the same person, reject both. This should teach those cheaters a lesson.

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Originally Posted by Spectator

CleanSock,

Call me a cynic, but I think it is caused by the Companies themselves playing the numbers game.

They know there will be a lottery, so they are putting in far more applications, hoping to get sufficient selected in the lottery.

If the integrity of the H1B system was improved, the numbers problem might well go away. By that, I mean ensuring that the job in the LCA actually exists, barring transfer to another employer/client prior to working for the employer/client specified in the original LCA (the law alreadt y provides for that) and voiding H1B petitions where the beneficiary is not admitted to the USA within a certain time period to start employment with the employer/client specified in the original LCA.

That would stop employers "banking" H1B approvals for future use and ensure that only those with a real job (as specified in the original LCA) use the numbers allocated.

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The reasons for H1b filing increase
1. Every year there lottery losers of previous year are filing
2. No of F1 is increasing every year
3. It is a business for consulting companies as most of the small companies are getting money from consultants and filing. It is a real lottery if they win some candidates. If not selected in lottery then no loss. Nowadays even client letters are easy to get as they get from some other consulting companies
4.Big companies can handle without H1b even with L1 but it is a strategy to make US companies not get needed resource so that same position can be filled by those consulting companies with the intent of outsourcing

It is difficult to increase H1b cap as the opposition is well supported and with strong reason. Only Grassley know that too little bit about what is going on H1b. Luckily is in good powerful position and he can prevent that. There is no wonder he was most hated Senator among immigrant groups. But again his conditions are very simple and easy to comply. Still everyone want blank check and status quo continues

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Originally Posted by CleanSock

I cannot believe the way its increasing every year. 2013 was the first year of lottery after recession and USCIS had received 125,000. In 2014, USCIS received 175,000. It's an almost 50,000 increase over last year.

Maybe this exponential increase in applications will cause the companies to pressurize the government to increase the cap as they are the ones losing out on talent/profits.

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At the risk of being called some undesirable names, an increase in the H1B demand does not mean increase in "talent". Yes, it can mean increase in ill gotten profits.

The H1B fiasco is clearly demonstrating the need to seriously regulate this out of control system.

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Originally Posted by Spectator

CleanSock,

Call me a cynic, but I think it is caused by the Companies themselves playing the numbers game.

They know there will be a lottery, so they are putting in far more applications, hoping to get sufficient selected in the lottery.

If the integrity of the H1B system was improved, the numbers problem might well go away. By that, I mean ensuring that the job in the LCA actually exists, barring transfer to another employer/client prior to working for the employer/client specified in the original LCA (the law alreadt y provides for that) and voiding H1B petitions where the beneficiary is not admitted to the USA within a certain time period to start employment with the employer/client specified in the original LCA.

That would stop employers "banking" H1B approvals for future use and ensure that only those with a real job (as specified in the original LCA) use the numbers allocated.

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The problem is that H1B period starts in October, while a visa application can be accepted in April. No small company can afford to wait 6 months. If you have a real job offer "now", you cannot work "now" unless you were already in F1 and had your OPT.

This is just an archaic model and shows that lawmakers still haven't got to the 21st century. The way the system is designed, it opens the door for big consultancies to show thousands of job openings and "reserve" thousands of H1Bs. These consultancies will then "find" projects within 6 months...if they cannot be found, oh well...whatever. The H1B goes to waste. Meanwhile, the person who could have had a job offer in April and who wasn't selected in the lottery...well, tough luck.

How about the following system instead: Reward a conditional visa to an applicant who can produce a valid job offer and allow the person to start working in April. In October, this person will be required to submit the 6 months payslips, and all supporting documentation to demonstrate that he/she is doing the job that was stated in the LCA. In October, give final H1B visas to people who are working for real, and send all the fake consultants home. I assure you that it will be very easy to choose the deserving 85000 people this way.

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

The problem is that H1B period starts in October, while a visa application can be accepted in April. No small company can afford to wait 6 months. If you have a real job offer "now", you cannot work "now" unless you were already in F1 and had your OPT.

This is just an archaic model and shows that lawmakers still haven't got to the 21st century. The way the system is designed, it opens the door for big consultancies to show thousands of job openings and "reserve" thousands of H1Bs. These consultancies will then "find" projects within 6 months...if they cannot be found, oh well...whatever. The H1B goes to waste. Meanwhile, the person who could have had a job offer in April and who wasn't selected in the lottery...well, tough luck.

How about the following system instead: Reward a conditional visa to an applicant who can produce a valid job offer and allow the person to start working in April. In October, this person will be required to submit the 6 months payslips, and all supporting documentation to demonstrate that he/she is doing the job that was stated in the LCA. In October, give final H1B visas to people who are working for real, and send all the fake consultants home. I assure you that it will be very easy to choose the deserving 85000 people this way.

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I was reading this post assuming it to be Spec and then noticed the words in bold. Then looked up the id who posted this and was not surprised. Do I need to say more ?

-- A former consultant turned full time for the last few years.
( I can vouch that small and big consultant company employees are way better than full timers from my experience. There are too many dead logs in fulltime positions)

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Originally Posted by gcq

... small and big consultant company employees are way better than full timers from my experience..

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given how opinionated i am i can't resist but say that genius is overrated.

Many times we see very intelligent people not doing anything better financially / careerwise for the simple reason that they are perfectly happy not taking up challenging work. On the other hand some of the most successful executives I have seen have one thing in common - curiosity and patience - which makes me believe intelligence is of no virtue unless you apply it.

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Originally Posted by gcq

I was reading this post assuming it to be Spec and then noticed the words in bold. Then looked up the id who posted this and was not surprised. Do I need to say more ?

-- A former consultant turned full time for the last few years.
( I can vouch that small and big consultant company employees are way better than full timers from my experience. There are too many dead logs in fulltime positions)

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Nowhere did I hint at a dichotomy between consultants and full timers. I am myself getting into consulting and contracting. This attack is totally unwarranted. I was only saying the obvious: Countless people will waste/violate terms of the H1B denying the genuine candidates (consultants or not) an opportunity to work and build a career. That's about it.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

intelligence is of no virtue unless you apply it.

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Thumbs-up to that. I don't remember who said it but it stuck with me and is something like -- It's not the talent, it's what you do with it that matters.

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

Nowhere did I hint at a dichotomy between consultants and full timers. I am myself getting into consulting and contracting. This attack is totally unwarranted. I was only saying the obvious: Countless people will waste/violate terms of the H1B denying the genuine candidates (consultants or not) an opportunity to work and build a career. That's about it.

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There is no one called "fake consultants". Spec point is valid that many companies apply for H1B but end up wasting it. The problem here is not the consultant companies itself, but the system. Consulting companies operates in a different model. They bid for projects hoping to bring people onboard. However current H1B system doesn't allow you to apply on a need basis. If the quota is over, it is over for that year. So these companies cannot operate smoothly. So they apply in advance and keep their employees ready for projects. If they don't get a project that year, that visa is wasted. Denying them visa is not the solution. Issue is with H1B program itself. The solution you mentioned won't work either. In early 2000s this was not an issue. There weren't so many companies, there were enough visas, so companies could apply anytime. From 2000-2015 ( 15 years ) businesses has grown that much, however H1B quota hasn't grown enough to reflect the current realities. That is the issue here.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

given how opinionated i am i can't resist but say that genius is overrated.

Many times we see very intelligent people not doing anything better financially / careerwise for the simple reason that they are perfectly happy not taking up challenging work. On the other hand some of the most successful executives I have seen have one thing in common - curiosity and patience - which makes me believe intelligence is of no virtue unless you apply it.

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There are countless people who have cheated and made money. E.g. nearly all politicians on this planet. Is making money and doing financially better your criteria of judging people's worth?

Still, I know the context in which you are saying this, and I do not deny it. Yes, I have met people smarter and talented than I am, and I do not sometimes understand why they are at their current level. I started new work, and within a week, I learnt whole new efficient paradigms of doing various things from one guy in the team. I am a level ABOVE him. He is happy doing what he does. I am also amazed at the artwork that he has produced and sits proudly at his desk over the years.

Maybe the intelligent people that earn less live more fulfilling life, have great varied interests, raise excellent and successful kids, have a fantastic network of friends, and have traveled in the true sense enjoying their lives. Maybe they are telling themselves that's what is more important than pursuing career beyond a point.

Not everyone wants to commit 10-15 hours of their day to the work, work policies, sales meetings, marketing campaigns and as such. Some people will do it and a subset among them will rise to the executive level. IMO, they have no more curiosity than the ones that don't do it and I do not find anything extraordinary in them.

Anyway, all of this was besides the topic. I am learning that giving out obvious and candid opinions on Q's forum ruffles some people the wrong way. I don't really want to continue to waste my time here. I want to thank all the nice people who have helped me over the years in my GC journey. God bless you all. And good luck to all 2009ers!

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Originally Posted by gcq

There is no one called "fake consultants". Spec point is valid that many companies apply for H1B but end up wasting it. The problem here is not the consultant companies itself, but the system. Consulting companies operates in a different model. They bid for projects hoping to bring people onboard. However current H1B system doesn't allow you to apply on a need basis. If the quota is over, it is over for that year. So these companies cannot operate smoothly. So they apply in advance and keep their employees ready for projects. If they don't get a project that year, that visa is wasted. Denying them visa is not the solution. Issue is with H1B program itself. The solution you mentioned won't work either. In early 2000s this was not an issue. There weren't so many companies, there was enough visas, so companies could apply anytime. From 2000-2015 ( 15 years ) businesses has grown that much, however H1B quota hasn't grown enough to reflect the current realities. That is the issue here.

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There are thousands of people who do not have a project in hand while they get H1B. A majority of them "sit on the bench". This happens only in consultancies and never in FTE. You can pretend this doesn't happen, but it won't change the reality.

Anyway, good day to you.

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

There are thousands of people who do not have a project in hand while they get H1B. A majority of them "sit on the bench". This happens only in consultancies and never in FTE. You can pretend this doesn't happen, but it won't change the reality.

Anyway, good day to you.

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You have countered your own earlier post.

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Nowhere did I hint at a dichotomy between consultants and full timers..

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Now was it an unwarranted attack ?
Blaming others for your problems is immature !

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

There are countless people who have cheated and made money. E.g. nearly all politicians on this planet. Is making money and doing financially better your criteria of judging people's worth?

Still, I know the context in which you are saying this, and I do not deny it. Yes, I have met people smarter and talented than I am, and I do not sometimes understand why they are at their current level. I started new work, and within a week, I learnt whole new efficient paradigms of doing various things from one guy in the team. I am a level ABOVE him. He is happy doing what he does. I am also amazed at the artwork that he has produced and sits proudly at his desk over the years.

Maybe the intelligent people that earn less live more fulfilling life, have great varied interests, raise excellent and successful kids, have a fantastic network of friends, and have traveled in the true sense enjoying their lives. Maybe they are telling themselves that's what is more important than pursuing career beyond a point.

Not everyone wants to commit 10-15 hours of their day to the work, work policies, sales meetings, marketing campaigns and as such. Some people will do it and a subset among them will rise to the executive level. IMO, they have no more curiosity than the ones that don't do it and I do not find anything extraordinary in them.

Anyway, all of this was besides the topic. I am learning that giving out obvious and candid opinions on Q's forum ruffles some people the wrong way. I don't really want to continue to waste my time here. I want to thank all the nice people who have helped me over the years in my GC journey. God bless you all. And good luck to all 2009ers!

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Sport - in life howsoever well intentioned we talk - we are bound to ruffle some feathers. The best we can do is - not let our own feathers get ruffled!!

On your other points - yes indeed success is a relative term and many ways to feel fulfilled and successful! There is no correlation between intelligence and fulfillment. Life is always a work in progress. Those who continuously work at it - will be rewarded in more than one ways.

p.s. - gcq - please don't make it personal.

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

There are thousands of people who do not have a project in hand while they get H1B. A majority of them "sit on the bench". This happens only in consultancies and never in FTE. You can pretend this doesn't happen, but it won't change the reality.

Anyway, good day to you.

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As an FTE(Not in a consulting company) once, I was doing all non productive stuff for close to 6 months (Attending meetings to discuss about new project initiatives, attending trainings for the new project that starts in 4 months, participating in conferences in Orlando and Vegas). Even in consulting world, one would try doing all what i did to get a new project. However in consulting world people call this as benching even if they are paid for non productive time, why not in FTE?

The system is not perfect for everyone, USCIS or anyone cannot design a system that works for everyone.

I have a suggestion. Why not USCIS give H1 B's based on offered salary and strictly monitor the salary offered (such as monitoring bank statements of employees to ensure that there is no unpaid time on bench etc).

15000 h1's go to salary above 200 K
20000 h1's go to salary above 140 K
20000 h1's go to salary above 100 K
10000 h1's go to salary above 65K



H1's can trickle down from high wage to low wage in case there is not enough demand at that level.
What this will ensure is that no consulting company will block the H1's. Folks with good skill and demand will be guaranteed H1. US will benefit because H1 will attract the best and the brightest folks who are paid high wages and thereby pay high taxes. Further this will also ensure that american workers are protected since H1's also have to be paid higher wages and wont be cheap labor. Employers with real need will compete to pay higher wages and everyone wins (employees, US workers, government). Currently most H1's filed will have pay around 65K. This is because of consulting companies exploiting the situation. The moment pay goes above 100K most of them will bail out. Of course they will try to cheat the system, but that is easily fixed if USCIS monitors the bank statement of employees.

We can argue that this will lead to mass outsourcing, but that is possible even in the current scenario. There are many big indian consulting firms ready for outsourcing at 10$ per hour
if the contract is big enough but still there is huge H1 demand.


Another alternative is to split H1's based on field of occupation. This will ensure that IT Consulting doesnt gobble up all H1's.

We can talk about increasing H1's but ideally there shouldnt be a cap. The cap is difficult to remove because it is a fact that US workers were laid off massively many times while hiring H1B's/oursourcing. Corporations brought it on to themselves.

Folks with a masters / bachelors degree from US who are trying to find work in the field of their specialization need a separate solution. Masters degree folks trying to get a IT consulting job should just go thru 65K quota.

Imagine having a bachelors degree in a latest field of study from Stanford and not getting H1 B to work after that. To me a bachelors degree from the top institutions is 50 times more worth than the masters degree offered by the also ran universities. Currently the no of folks with foreign nationality doing Bachelors degree in US is less but it is growing. I dont know if they even get OPT.

Of course this will irritate a lot of folks, but I just looked at it from an angle of what is best for skilled folks, US citizens and residents.

seattlet,

I would say this is just another "me first" recommendation.

What about this "me first" recommendation - All people who came to US to study masters who swore at the consulate they have no intention of settling down after studies, go back to their home countries after completion of their studies ? Demand will go down and there won't be H1B scarcity anymore !A good chunk of H1B demand is by people who stay back after studies against what they promised to consular officers when they got their student visa.

And of course:
"This will irritate a lot of folks, but I just looked at it from an angle of what is best for skilled folks, US citizens and residents."

NB: I didn't study in USA.

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Originally Posted by gcq

seattlet,

I would say this is just another "me first" recommendation.

What about this "me first" recommendation - All people who came to US to study masters who swore at the consulate they have no intention of settling down after studies, go back to their home countries after completion of their studies ? Demand will go down and there won't be H1B scarcity anymore !A good chunk of H1B demand is by people who stay back after studies against what they promised to consular officers when they got their student visa.

And of course:
"This will irritate a lot of folks, but I just looked at it from an angle of what is best for skilled folks, US citizens and residents."

NB: I didn't study in USA.

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But whatever the case the lottery is not a good idea. They can put a condition that companies need to bring the person or give the job within 3 months of start date. If not comply they can cancel h1b and reuse. Some consulting companies wait months and some time years to bring H1b after approval.

A couple of observations:

1) H1 are indeed high skilled. Because a programmer is coding day in and day out - he thinks anybody can do what he is doing. But the reality is - a lot of people can't do it. So programming / systems analysis and generally IT consulting is - "High skilled" work.

2) There is H1 abuse happening in terms of showing false salary and actually giving something else. In US the government systems are very well compartmentalized and yet they are reasonably coordinated. So USCIS itself doesn't do the salary check. DoL does that. When it comes to visa - that is the job is DoS not DHS or USCIS. So if there are salary problems - DoL may be more interested than USCIS. But more importantly sometimes - my opinion - is that DoJ is something that immigrants should not forget. Immigrants have all the legal obligations and rights when in US. Well almost all the rights (not all the rights). So they can sue the employer for nonpayment during bench or underpayment. Trust me - you will win. But I have been there and so I know for an immigrants with 2-6 years in this country it is not easy.

3) There is indeed huge H1 demand ... because now IT is pervasive. Ever ordinary small companies are looking for technology in their day to day job. A guy came to my house to fix water heater and he had a computer and small printer kind of device. When I started career almost 20 years back - I only used to work on huge projects sponsored by Governments or Big banks. There were no small projects. So H1 need is increasing because IT is reaching to masses. And so the quota must increase.

4) Although our philosophy is that all immigrants stand together .. we also must recognize that they do bring different value to the table. We can NOT fight facts. e.g. EB1 generally speaking are more qualified than EB2 than EB3 and so on. Or somebody who got a degree in US might be seen more favorably by industry and US government. Now are there extremely talented people in EB3 - more talented than a whole lot in EB2? Absolutely yes. My point is - the system is designed to generally work. There are deficiencies in the process but the design is not too bad.

5) The only place the design is TERRIBLE is "Country Quota". Where a person is discriminated purely based on where he was born and not on his ability in an employment category where immigration is supposed to happen based on skills and qualities.

haha I don't this this is a me first recommendation to benefit me. First I don't have a masters degree, second I don't have any degree from US, third I worked in IT consulting for many years and look forward to go back into it. But after years of being in the system, I see so many consulting vendors abusing the system. There are hundreds of them who start a firm, don't pay taxes, treat h1 workers very poorly and then after couple of years close the company and start a new one in their wife's name. They have tons of shady foreign bank accounts ,take money for H1, stamping, labor etc. On top of which they aren't loyal to any employee either. That is the "me first" blood sucking scenario that I'm trying to primarily address.
the "me second" scenario that I'm trying to address is the actual STEM folks(either with bachelors or masters degree) who try hard to get a job in their specialization ( I know a guy who got a bachelors degree from MIT Robotics dept and didn't get H1B in lottery for two consecutive years even though his company applied for it. It was a for profit position and it didn't involve the US government so had to go thru quota. And when I see consulting vendors gobble up H1 that makes me mad. Even Doctors after years of residency end up with no H1's while TCS/CTS sends its most
coveted excel sheet maintenance guy onsite for 55K. I think my pay based H1 will send the shady consulting firms packing once for all.

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Originally Posted by gcq

seattlet,

I would say this is just another "me first" recommendation.

What about this "me first" recommendation - All people who came to US to study masters who swore at the consulate they have no intention of settling down after studies, go back to their home countries after completion of their studies ? Demand will go down and there won't be H1B scarcity anymore !A good chunk of H1B demand is by people who stay back after studies against what they promised to consular officers when they got their student visa.

And of course:
"This will irritate a lot of folks, but I just looked at it from an angle of what is best for skilled folks, US citizens and residents."

NB: I didn't study in USA.

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seattlet,
It is very easy to trap these shady companies, consulting or otherwise. Complaint to DOL. If employee is afraid to report in their name ( there is no risk in it anyways), they can report anonymously. DOL will investigate and decimate the company. I know some of the consulting company employees that did and got their backwages. There will be bad apples in any system. It is for us to report and clean the system.

As I mentioned before, insufficient quota is the underlying reason for this H1B shortage. H1B is not an exclusive visa for a few folks from top institutes or for STEM. It is meant to address the needs of different industries. Whether you like it or not, H1B visa is primarily driven by IT industry's need. It will be that way for years to come.

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I don't this this is a me first recommendation to benefit me. First I don't have a masters degree, second I don't have any degree from US, third I worked in IT consulting for many years and look forward to go back into it.

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I think the above statement and story is fabricated. If consulting companies so bad, I am curious to know why someone would be "looking forward to" going back to consulting !

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On top of which they aren't loyal to any employee either.

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No company is loyal to employees. All they care is their profit.

I think we are getting a little personal in this thread. Best to stick to the argument and not focus on who is making them.

imdeng,
I completely agree. Discussions should not get personal. However what seattlet is doing is fabricating a story to make it look like it is original. Here he is pretending to be a consulting employee, non-US educated and the example about MIT-robotics guy. In that case I would like to know what he finds so interesting in consulting that he is looking forward to. This is all fabricated. If people make up the story with an agenda to defend an argument, that is personal argument. When somebody says all consultants should be banned from applying for H1B, that is a personal argument for consultants like me (and scores of others). That is not based on facts and realities. "Personal" offence goes both ways. The arguments by Spec, Q or the latest from Ramsen are not personal arguments, but the one by seattlet and sports is personal. It is a counter argument which can be posed only in a personal way because he is making his argument based on 'his' story.

gcq - i think it is unfair to make such a comment. These forums are anonymous. So somebody else could easily make similar accusation about you and me. So that kind of talk is unproductive and unhealthy.

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Originally Posted by gcq

..what seattlet is doing is fabricating a story to make it look like it is original...

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

gcq - i think it is unfair to make such a comment. These forums are anonymous. So somebody else could easily make similar accusation about you and me. So that kind of talk is unproductive and unhealthy.

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Generally yes - it could be unfair. However one can easily read between the lines to know whether it is real or made up. I have made couple of observations regarding seattlet's posts, timings etc to arrive at the conclusion. When people make argument for arguments for arguments sake by fabricating things, what is the point in discussion itself ?

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Originally Posted by gcq

Generally yes - it could be unfair. However one can easily read between the lines to know whether it is real or made up. I have made couple of observations regarding seattlet's posts, timings etc to arrive at the conclusion. When people make argument for arguments for arguments sake by fabricating things, what is the point in discussion itself ?

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I would err on the side of not doubting other person's account AND at the same time I would always forcefully say whatever I want to say.

gcq i read that this isn't the first time u got personal so I'm just ignoring ur post