Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

I don't understand how Democrats can hold up a DV for STEM replacement. This is ludicrous. Since replacement is the only option on the table, they should just pass the damn thing. 50k US educated STEM MS >> 50k DV anyday regardless of the bullshit 'diversity' they want to preserve. There is enough diversity in this country and 50k out of ~1M legal immigrants really doesn't move the needle. I really wish this passes in the House and the Republicans lampoon the Democrats over this. And I would imagine XXXXX Grassley would support it too since it gets rid of DV which he has long advocated for. And Lamar Smith has more seniority than Chaffetz so that'll be another positive factor.

There can be millions of reports on STEM bill. Democrats will block that in the Senate.. they do not want DV lottery eliminated.. And the only bill before December have a chance to become law is H.R. 3012. There is no point wasting time talking about STEM.

From last night on POLITICO-no new information here but mainstream media reporting is scarce on this subject

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...277.html?hp=r5

I totally agree with you. Rather than wasting time call your Senators this week in support of H.R. 3012. This bill will pass. Here is the phone number. The U.S. Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121. A switchboard operator will connect you directly with the Senate office you request. Staff will answer the phone, state your name and where you live with zip code. Then state that "I am calling to voice my support for H.R. 3012.I want to request Senator to support and pass H.R. 3012 bill in Senate as soon as possible. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by immitime

There can be millions of reports on STEM bill. Democrats will block that in the Senate.. they do not want DV lottery eliminated.. And the only bill before December have a chance to become law is H.R. 3012. There is no point wasting time talking about STEM.

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Immigration is at least beginning to pop up in the run up to the election.

http://news.yahoo.com/romney-pledge-...-business.html

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Originally Posted by pakkpk

I totally agree with you. Rather than wasting time call your Senators this week in support of H.R. 3012. This bill will pass. Here is the phone number. The U.S. Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121. A switchboard operator will connect you directly with the Senate office you request. Staff will answer the phone, state your name and where you live with zip code. Then state that "I am calling to voice my support for H.R. 3012.I want to request Senator to support and pass H.R. 3012 bill in Senate as soon as possible. Thank you.

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I understand your frustration and sarcasm!. Calling the Senators and making sure they support is only 15 %, if just by calling Senators, or sending emails to them, alone a bill passes, then by this time, H.R.3012 would have become law there are other under currents in a legislative process. H.R.3012 is the bill already passed the congress and waiting for the legislation on senate calendar. STEM bill at the same time is still a proposal, not even passed congress!.:o

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

I completely disagree. We can continue with the efforts on HR 3012, but there is absolutely nothing wrong to push for the STEM bill. STEM bill looks more probable than HR 3012 anyway, because it won't have any opposition from the ROW, and any Senator attempting to block it will have to explain the uncomfortable question of "why let in 55K random people versus preferring 55K US educated STEM masters/PhDs". The US Universities are a stakeholder in the STEM bill and would have a greater influence. The technology sector will also be squarely behind the STEM bill.

I understand that HR 3012 is **'s prime action item and kudos to them for the progress on the bill, but we need to seek what's best for EB-I folks, and the STEM bill is looking promising. If it passes the House, it will be exactly where the HR3012 is at right now.

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Sports,

Democrats are against any Legal immigration bills, the moment we say Legal immigration fix, they will connect CIR with that, (because no VOTES! these are all election politics) and they won't sacrifice DV lottery for our Legal immigration, no issues with STEM bill as such, but only thing I pointed out is, it may not go anywhere.

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Originally Posted by immitime

I understand your frustration and sarcasm!. Calling the Senators and making sure they support is only 15 %, if just by calling Senators, or sending emails to them, alone a bill passes, then by this time, H.R.3012 would have become law there are other under currents in a legislative process. H.R.3012 is the bill already passed the congress and waiting for the legislation on senate calendar. STEM bill at the same time is still a proposal, not even passed congress!.:o

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I would be rather in that 15% (calling to Senators) than just reading news by clicking the links provided here or reading fake analysis provided with hidden agendas.

Read between the lines: "Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.), who has talked to Smith about the issue, said he supports boosting STEM visas without reducing visas elsewhere."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz26k4dvpGt

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

I completely disagree. We can continue with the efforts on HR 3012, but there is absolutely nothing wrong to push for the STEM bill. STEM bill looks more probable than HR 3012 anyway, because it won't have any opposition from the ROW, and any Senator attempting to block it will have to explain the uncomfortable question of "why let in 55K random people versus preferring 55K US educated STEM masters/PhDs". The US Universities are a stakeholder in the STEM bill and would have a greater influence. The technology sector will also be squarely behind the STEM bill.

I understand that HR 3012 is **'s prime action item and kudos to them for the progress on the bill, but we need to seek what's best for EB-I folks, and the STEM bill is looking promising. If it passes the House, it will be exactly where the HR3012 is at right now.

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I think things could get very interesting if this passes the House as expected and Republicans win the Senate (though I guess they won't be in office for the lame duck session). I won't rule out the STEM bill completely yet, even if the chances don't seem great for the Democrats caving in (probably less than 50%). It is an election year and if Republicans get aggressive about 50k DV vs. US educated STEM MS, there might be some pressure on the Democrats.

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Originally Posted by abcx13

I don't understand how Democrats can hold up a DV for STEM replacement. This is ludicrous. Since replacement is the only option on the table, they should just pass the damn thing. 50k US educated STEM MS >> 50k DV anyday regardless of the bullshit 'diversity' they want to preserve. There is enough diversity in this country and 50k out of ~1M legal immigrants really doesn't move the needle. I really wish this passes in the House and the Republicans lampoon the Democrats over this. And I would imagine XXXXX Grassley would support it too since it gets rid of DV which he has long advocated for. And Lamar Smith has more seniority than Chaffetz so that'll be another positive factor.

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Why is replacement the only option and not addition? Which of the 2 parties is insisting on this?
You do realize that the Republicans need Democratic support at both levels first in the House to get the 2/3 majority and then in the Senate to even bring it to the Floor. Why not incorporate some Democratic ideas to ensure better chances of success?
If the Republicans say no they are perceived as uncompromising on their principles but if the Democrats say no they are perceived as obstructionist.

Please join the live webcast @ Brookings Institute on 27th. Also remember to share out your thoughts via #TechCTI.
http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012...stem-education

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Originally Posted by gs1968

Why is replacement the only option and not addition? Which of the 2 parties is insisting on this? You do realize that the Republicans need Democratic support at both levels first in the House to get the 2/3 majority and then in the Senate to even bring it to the Floor. Why not incorporate some Democratic ideas to ensure better chances of success? If the Republicans say no they are perceived as uncompromising on their principles but if the Democrats say no they are perceived as obstructionist.

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It's the only option because it's the only bill that will be put for a vote. The republicans will not vote on Lofgren's bill. I realize Republicans need some Democratic support, but I feel they can get it at least in the House. Probably not in the Senate.

This is not about uncompromising vs. obstructionist. This is about the DV being a stupid idea from the get go and a sop for the Irish. If you apply any sort of utilitarian calculus, given a fixed immigration quota, it will ALWAYS make sense to swap the DV for STEM MS. So the Democrats are being obstructionist and stupid. Even if you add 50k STEM visas without axing DV, the question is whether America really needs DV. And it's even less clear whether those people aren't a leech on the taxpayer unlike STEM immigrants who are net gains to the economy (maybe not bodyshoppers but the intended recipients of the STEM visa).

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Originally Posted by abcx13

It's the only option because it's the only bill that will be put for a vote. The republicans will not vote on Lofgren's bill. I realize Republicans need some Democratic support, but I feel they can get it at least in the House. Probably not in the Senate.

This is not about uncompromising vs. obstructionist. This is about the DV being a stupid idea from the get go and a sop for the Irish. If you apply any sort of utilitarian calculus, given a fixed immigration quota, it will ALWAYS make sense to swap the DV for STEM MS. So the Democrats are being obstructionist and stupid. Even if you add 50k STEM visas without axing DV, the question is whether America really needs DV. And it's even less clear whether those people aren't a leech on the taxpayer unlike STEM immigrants who are net gains to the economy (maybe not bodyshoppers but the intended recipients of the STEM visa).

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Which voting constituency of democrats would be affected if they vote for ending the DV ?

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

There could be amendments. For example:

1. Do not eliminate DV completely, but reduce it to 35K and use the 20K for EB STEM visas.
2. Create a new category in EB and apply all spillover from EB1/4/5 first to that new category. Plenty of EB2 and EB3 folks could qualify. This new category should work irrespective of countries and by PDs only. So, the first people who would be helped would be in EB3-I who qualify for the STEM. See? Instead of spillovers going exclusively for EB2-I, EB3-I would get some spillover from STEM too. So, HR 3012 is not the only bill that can help.

I have always maintained my admiration for ** despite the criticism it attracts. I will always support HR 3012. But I will also support STEM. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bills that could help us.

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How does it help EB3-I?
In order to qualify for the STEM, you need Masters Degree from USA.
EB3 people anyways don't satisfy that criteria.

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Originally Posted by iamdeb

How does it help EB3-I?
In order to qualify for the STEM, you need Masters Degree from USA.
EB3 people anyways don't satisfy that criteria.

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I do not know how it benefits EB1 also because it is CURRENT anyway.

agreed rupen - i think when ppl think STEM bills, they think a GC automatically stapled, so no need for a job etc... in this case, a job is required along with the need to file perm etc. still not easy in this environment. a large chunk of those 50k STEM GC's will not be used!

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

There could be amendments. For example:

1. Do not eliminate DV completely, but reduce it to 35K and use the 20K for EB STEM visas.
2. Create a new category in EB and apply all spillover from EB1/4/5 first to that new category. Plenty of EB2 and EB3 folks could qualify. This new category should work irrespective of countries and by PDs only. So, the first people who would be helped would be in EB3-I who qualify for the STEM. See? Instead of spillovers going exclusively for EB2-I, EB3-I would get some spillover from STEM too. So, HR 3012 is not the only bill that can help.

I have always maintained my admiration for ** despite the criticism it attracts. I will always support HR 3012. But I will also support STEM. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bills that could help us.

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:D There could be or would be... is only just expectation. Think about the journey of H.R.3012 its almost an year! after passing congress.. I don't deny the chances of STEM, but less hope

To abcx13
I was merely implying that there has to be negotiation and consensus before bringing a Bill to the Floor to maximize chances of success. The limits set by the IMMACT 1990 which also created the EB categories and the dual intent H-1B visa were applicable to the population of America then which was 248 million.There are 313 million people in the country now and an increase of 55,000 will hardly move the needle.If the republicans were serious, they could always make this argument to their base. I am a physicain and extremely pro-immigrant. My only wish is for the USA not to suffer the same effects of negative growth that Europe is grappling with now. The total fertility rate in this country has fallen below replacement levels in the last 2 years and we need as many immigrants as possible to sustain the growth rate. The 2 contributors to population growth at this time are immigration and population momentum (the increase in population due to increasing numbers of women in child-bearing age due to previous high birth rates). This would be a perfect opportunity to increase immigration albeit by a measly 5%

Below is an interesting link to the negotiations behind the original diversity Program if you are interested in history

https://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/TheD...isaProgram.pdf

Immigration should be in national interest and not driven by special interests. Every immigrant to this country lays seeds for the future and even though some DV immigrants may not have MS/Phd - it may merely reflect a lack of opportunity rather than ability and their children given the chance in this country may be the shining stars of the future.

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Originally Posted by vishnu

agreed rupen - i think when ppl think STEM bills, they think a GC automatically stapled, so no need for a job etc... in this case, a job is required along with the need to file perm etc. still not easy in this environment. a large chunk of those 50k STEM GC's will not be used!

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if it is not used, it will help EB2 in using spillover. But I do not see this helping EB3.

Not true, I have an MS in STEM with EB3. I know so many of my friends have an MS degree but stuck in EB3 mess.

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Originally Posted by rupen86

if it is not used, it will help EB2 in using spillover. But I do not see this helping EB3.

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

STEM is not about exclusively helping EB3-I. It is about giving a fair chance to people who are educated in the US.

Many people have maintained that EB3-I and in fact even EB3-ROW have a lot of people who are educated in the US and possess Masters or even higher in rare cases. Those people now get ahead in the queue, while people in EB2-IC get behind who *do not* possess US STEM qualification.

So instead of the spillover getting applied completely to EB2-I, now qualified people in EB3-I get ahead in line and get some spillover, which has the net effect of helping EB3-I. STEM without the DV visas is actually detrimental to EB2-I as a whole and EB3-I can only gain.

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Let's say some people from Eb2 move to this category (assume Eb6) and some from Eb3 will move here (I do not think Eb3 number would be significant). So in this case, there would be little reduced backlog from Eb3 but at the same time Eb2 is not loosing because it is getting whatever it was getting and some of the people are moving to new category which should help Eb2 also. I did not understand your point of this being detrimental to Eb2-I

Please spare two minutes of your life to make calls to Senators urging them to pass HR 3012. You have nothing to lose.

Two more news reports on the STEM Bill

http://www.newsmax.com/US/gop-visas-...9/17/id/452039

http://www.voxxi.com/republicans-pus...ress-recesses/

First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

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Originally Posted by Pedro Gonzales

First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

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Interesting analysis. I thought on-line and part-time degrees will be excluded unless they aren't from a small list (200-300) of research institutions. And I haven't read the bill, but I assumed you can't port from EB3 to this new STEM visa since technically your job doesn't require a MS even if you have one (same argument as why these ppl aren't eligible for EB2 despite having a MS)? If you can port from EB3 to STEM just by virtue of having a MS, even if online schools are excluded, then I agree with you that EB2I could be slow moving for a while (though I doubt there are 56% with a US STEM MS in EB3ROW).

[QUOTE=Pedro Gonzales;30065]... so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.

Did not understand above. Why should spillover go to EB3 first? EB3 can have US Masters but so can EB2 (higher chances).

Of course, if they keep per-country cap, we would see more contention in coming years since the university admission data is very different for international students.

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Originally Posted by kkruna

... so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.

Did not understand above. Why should spillover go to EB3 first? EB3 can have US Masters but so can EB2 (higher chances).

Of course, if they keep per-country cap, we would see more contention in coming years since the university admission data is very different for international students.

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If EB2 and EB3 applicants with STEM MS end up in this new category, say EB6, with country quotas, then EB6-I will have a lot of ppl from EB3-I with pre-07 PDs. Unless there is SO across within EB6 from EB6-ROW, EB6-I will be retrogressed for a while and will be processed in order of PD (generally speaking). So those EB3I porters with older PDs will benefit and EB2Is will still languish.

Sen. Charles Schumer is introducing the version that Rep. Zoe Lofgren introduced in the house. There is no chance I think Rep. Smiths bill can get 2/3rd of the votes.

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-va...migration-bill

Did have hopes on HR 3012, but I can bet you a dollar that bill is dead.

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Originally Posted by cbordu_111

Sen. Charles Schumer is introducing the version that Rep. Zoe Lofgren introduced in the house. There is no chance I think Rep. Smiths bill can get 2/3rd of the votes.

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-va...migration-bill

Did have hopes on HR 3012, but I can bet you a dollar that bill is dead.

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Look, there's a lot of talk. I view it as a good thing even if it turns out to be political posturing. Who knows? Maybe the 1% probability that they can compromise actually comes true. And maybe there will be some STEM/immigration reform next year if both houses are controlled by the same party after the elections.

At this point though, some senior leaders in the House and the Senate will really have to coordinate and show some true bipartisanship, which in this case, I think, should involve the Republicans yielding and passing STEM in addition to DV.

If congress is really interested in removing country quota they could have removed atleast in this 55k no of gcs

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Originally Posted by Pedro Gonzales

First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

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Originally Posted by Ramsen

If congress is really interested in removing country quota they could have removed atleast in this 55k no of gcs

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Can you please expand that?

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Originally Posted by gs1968

Two more news reports on the STEM Bill

http://www.newsmax.com/US/gop-visas-...9/17/id/452039

http://www.voxxi.com/republicans-pus...ress-recesses/

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There is some more information on Smith's bill at,
http://www.fairus.org/legislative-up...mber-17-2012#1

Some of the in-built restriction (cap, labor, etc.) gives me the feeling that if and when the bill becomes law, the 55k visas may not be completely utilized in a given FY.

I called the Senators. But my feeling is, nothing is going to happen till lame duck. In fact, now I am doubting whether anything regarding legal imigration would happen during lame duck. Any immigration bill will only move forward if one party has majority both in the House and the Sente. If BO wins with majority, which it seems could happen looking at the poll numbers, expect no stand-alone legal immigration reform. Democrats will not touch legal immigration without making it a part of CIR. If Republicans win with majority and end up controlling both the House and Senate, we have a small hope of some legal immigration reform but their tea-party members can derail it especially since the economy is not showing any signs of improvement and unemployment hovering around 8 percent. Personally, I have more hopes on Democrats doing something about immigration than Republicans even though in general, Republicans are more pro-legal immigration. I really wish to be proved wrong but until some miracle happens, I don't see these guys getting together on any issue till the elections are over.

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Originally Posted by Pedro Gonzales

First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

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If HR 3012 is passed along with this, then there could be more significant effect.

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Originally Posted by chengisk

There is some more information on Smith's bill at,
http://www.fairus.org/legislative-up...mber-17-2012#1

Some of the in-built restriction (cap, labor, etc.) gives me the feeling that if and when the bill becomes law, the 55k visas may not be completely utilized in a given FY.

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Interesting quote on BHO:

"Similarly, President Obama has urged businesses that have long lobbied for more skilled green cards to not support the Smith bill. "

That says it all. He supports a bunch of illegal kids and lottery winners over people who have studied and worked hard in this country. Rank cowardice - but what else can you expect from someone who is proud of drone attacks...

P.S. - Yes, I know they were kids and likely did nothing wrong, but if you can legalize them, you should legalize *legal* immigrants too. He should really just cook up another exec order once this legislation stalls - like not counting dependents...

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Originally Posted by abcx13

Interesting quote on BHO:

"Similarly, President Obama has urged businesses that have long lobbied for more skilled green cards to not support the Smith bill. "

That says it all. He supports a bunch of illegal kids and lottery winners over people who have studied and worked hard in this country. Rank cowardice - but what else can you expect from someone who is proud of drone attacks...

P.S. - Yes, I know they were kids and likely did nothing wrong, but if you can legalize them, you should legalize *legal* immigrants too. He should really just cook up another exec order once this legislation stalls - like not counting dependents...

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BO and Democrats won't do it because they see no political gains from it. People who are stuck in backlogs will not immediately become eligible to vote so he won't do it when the election is hovering around. He made those illegals legal to play gallery to the other Latino voters who are US citizens which is a large chunk of vote he can get. I don't think that Democrats are against legal immigration in general but this is all just a big part of the political game.

I don't know what's the association of "being proud of drone attacks" and "making illegals legal". In fact, Republicans have not opposed BO's policy of drone attacks in Afghanistan either. At least, on that point, they have a consensus. :p

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Originally Posted by Jonty Rhodes

I don't know what's the association of "being proud of drone attacks" and "making illegals legal".

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Cowardice. The only reason he legalized the kids was to win votes and because he didn't have the courage to actually push it through Congress in his first 2 years when the Dems controlled both houses. He could also have done an EA at any other time. The only reason he did it was for the votes.

This is an easy bill. I don't think people care too much about the DV lottery anyway. Most Americans I know would be happy to see a STEM visa instead of the stupid DV. But then the people I know would also support just increasing the immigration limit...

The Democrats may not be against illegal immigration but they seem to think bullshit liberal bleeding heart causes like amnesty and a diversity lottery are more important than legal immigration. Seriously, which other country has a freaking lottery for visas?

abc - i am not going to debate anything else you mentioned. I have mixed opinions on these things. But I think the phrase - BHO - you used is used by republicans to indirectly stoke anti muslim sentiments.

While we may or may not agree with Obama or Bush or whoever; we should try not to single out or stereotype a particular group (muslim or otherwise) in negative way. You probably didn't mean it. But please be mindful about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by abcx13

Interesting quote on BHO:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

abc - i am not going to debate anything else you mentioned. I have mixed opinions on these things. But I think the phrase - BHO - you used is used by republicans to indirectly stoke anti muslim sentiments.

While we may or may not agree with Obama or Bush or whoever; we should try not to single out or stereotype a particular group (muslim or otherwise) in negative way. You probably didn't mean it. But please be mindful about it.

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Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I use BHO the same way people use GWB. My bad. I also used to call the Japanese Japs until someone pointed out that it was offensive.