Agree. Especially true now that ROW is all clear so the only CP that is there is mostly IC.
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Guys its been one month we launched this site. We have 230 members as of yesterday! As we have said many times before .... the purpose of this wokr we are doing here is really to help people understand REALISTICALLY how much time they need to wait before they can get a GC - so that they can plan their lives better. That's all what we are doing here. Hope this is helping at least some of you. Good luck and best wishes!
Hi Q,
Glad to be one of the 230 members. Appreciate the work you and other members are doing. Helps a ton.
Good luck to all the members and best wishes.
~ Pundit
Q
i registered couple of weeks ago but never posted, thank u for the site
always followed the thread in immigrationvoice, you/teddy and others did awesome job.
Hi,
I joined a few weeks ago and i must say i came to the right place. This is a fantastic thread. I would recommend including the potential impact of immigration reform initiatives discussed in DC, such as dream act, CIR etc. Also, would appreciate if someone could provide the estimated difference between I-485 filed till July 2007 and I-485 filed after that per year. I am assuming a sharp drop in filings in 2008 and 2009 due to the slow economy.
Thanks.
Thank you Bieber, Casantino. Glad this thread is helpful :-)
Happy Diwali to all !! For those who may not know - Diwali is an Indian festival that celebrates light which symbolizes hope. Also a new Vikram Samvat i.e. Hindu new year starts during Diwali. Wishing all of you Happy diwali and a very happy new prosperous year!!
Thanks Q for starting this blog. Your input and analysis are valuable. I will not ask ke mera number kab aayega :)-
Dec Visa Bulletin is out.
Update for the future months from the bulletin:
Employment Second:
India: no movement
This figure now seems to be confirmed by the VO.
This document was published today http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/Web_...cal_Limits.pdf
It was authored by oppenheim (presumably Charles Oppenheim).
However unexpected, it is not good news, since extra visa numbers from FB make such a big difference.
Also published today was the update to the NVC figures as at November 1, 2010.
It can be found here : http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/Web_...cal_Limits.pdf
http://www.usvisainfo.com/content/view/192/31/
"This clearly requires an easy legislative fix. For example, if unused numbers for the past ten years were recapture, the EB2 India line would be vastly decreased."
EASY ?? is it really easy ?
Fellow GC seekers ... please submit the following petition to your congressmen:
http://www.petition2congress.com/2/3284/
This would help us all.
PS: I inserted one line in the petition and that was to pass the Visa Recapture bill.
Thanks
You Guys are doing a Great Job! This is my first post after joining this blog. My Priority date is Feb 14,2007 EB2. When do you guys think it will get current any chances in 2011?
Q,
do you think it's possible that DOS moves cutoff dates before july 2012? for EB2I
it looks like by end of fy2012, the entire backlog till 2007 will be cleared, what is ur estimation when they start accepting new cases
Bieber, as far as we can see the big movement will always happen between jun-sep i.e. Q4. There is a possibility that in 2011 itself 2007 may get cleared. But the chances are less.
When 2007 current backlog comes close to being cleared, then USCIS can make 2 way movememnt. 1) Make it current for a month and then fall back. 2) Make a 6-12 month movement into 2008.
#1 allows all applicants waiting to file 485 to enjoy benefits of EAD and allows uSCIS to have a good large inventory to start working on again.
#2 allows USCIS to keep working on enough applications to exhaust EB2I quota.
In eithercase the decision will be a political and policy one. Unless immigration groups make noise #2 is more probable unfortunately in the current economic scenario.
Q,
I'm not sure I agree with that analysis.
USCIS have no influence on how the Cut Off dates are set.
That is the prerogative of the Dept of State through the Visa Office.
DOS couldn't care less about USCIS finances and it would violate their mandate if they moved the dates too far.
The VO is charged with ensuring that the yearly allocations are fully used, but not exceeded.
How they move the Cut Off dates when the current backlog is cleared is going to depend when it is necessary and how much demand they need to just use up the quota.
If it is towards the end of the year (towards spillover season), then each month of forward movement yields approx 2k visas for India and China, so if they needed 4k, only 2 months are needed.
If the backlog clears when spillover is not a concern, then the 7% limits are in place at around 250 visas a month per Country. In that case, the Cut Off dates need only advance a week or so to stimulate sufficient demand. In fact they may not need to move them at all due to PWMB and Porting applications.
To do anything else would be, as you pointed out, a political decision.
After what happened in July 2007, I don't think #1 is even a possibility, unless DOS are given specific Congressional authority to do so.
#2 looks unlikely as well, since the VO do not need a 6-12 month advance to stimulate the required demand. Again it would need specific authority to do so IMHO.
Q & Spectator
number of petitions has comedown drastically due to economy, mostly starting 2008 (official recession began in Dec2007, so this may be the only yardstick they have).
DOS can do anything, i admit that, but on what basis they decide the cutoff date once backlog is cleared. isn't it more practical to accept all the applications and then start setting the cutoff dates?
just for example, if DOS moves dates to Dec2007 expecting enough applications to fill the spillover and for some reason there are not enough applications, the visas will go to EB3 when EB2 is not current and they may get sued or something
i know this is not practical, but theoritically this is totally possible case.
Thanks Q, about EB3-I I believe that the 3 weeks of movement seen is slightly disappointing because 700 visas have been infused in the system and the Jan - Mar inventory demand in 2002 is actually low, the demand is much higher in the later months. Also the pre 2002 demand has been stable since the last couple of months at 8250. This would indicate that the Eb3-I dependant filing is high for pre 2002 and also that folks from 2002 are not porting. However looking at the Eb2-I demand I agree with the porting range of 4-6K. Hopefully we will see big movement in Jul - Sep 2011.
Q & Spectator agree with both of you. However likely the tipping point will come in 2012 and not 2011 when both EB2 I / C and also EB3 ROW will be current. Looks like there won't be enough numbers this year to clear the entire backlog till Jul 2007 unless something special happens but we may come quite close to it. Iam also waiting for that day so that atleast file for 485. There was some talk of developing a system within USCIS - DOS to have movement based on I140 filings any news on that?
Teddy,
I agree that the end of FY2012 looks like it wil be the critical time. I am not as optimistic as you - I think this is when the current backlogs will be either just exhausted or approaching exhaustion for both EB2 and EB3-ROW.
I prefer to use that terminology, because it isn't the same as Current.
I still can't subscribe to the theory that DOS will have to do anything amazing regarding forward movement of the Cut Off dates to cope with this.
Firstly, an element of forecasting and prediction is already part of the VO modus operandi. If it weren't, EB1 I&C would have to have had Cut Off dates established in recent years. By looking at current trends and past history, the VO have never done so, because they have forecast that spill up from EB5 will be sufficient to cover the demand.
Secondly, passing August 2007 is not an unexpected event. I am sure planning for this event has already started.
At the simplest level, DOS knows with some certainty the number of cases post August 2007 that are awaiting CP. They also know the historic CP:AOS ratio for each Country category. Even in the absence of any information from USCIS, they can set an approximate Cut Off date, even if it has a sizeable buffer built in.
In fact, DOS can move the Cut Off dates relatively early to gauge demand and then adjust them later if necessary. This would allow enough time to process and approve sufficient cases.
In reality, I suspect that USCIS will also be under pressure to complete an inventory of approved I-140s in their system awaiting potential I-485 submission, similar to the I-485 Inventory. Even if this was only partially successful, it would provide sufficient information to DOS to set approximate Cut Off dates beyond August 2007, again probably with a buffer.
The very last thing that DOS will want to be accused of, is creating anything which can be remotely compared to July 2007.
Next to that, they will not want to be accused of wasting visas when there is still demand from EB2.
None of the above necessitates moving Cut Off dates to either Current or well into 2008, unless you believe very large amounts of spillover will be available to deal with post August 2007 cases in FY2012. I would be surprised if it has to move into 2008 at all.
I don't particularly want to be cast as the doom sayer. I actually agree with most that you say. My feelings are based on a very conservative position, which you have stated you don't want to assume yet. Thus we are coming from two different ends of the same line. Possibly we will meet in the middle eventually.
I think that contrary positions often stimulate the best discussions. I certainly hope so.
Thanks Q, I agree with you that 2012 is the most likely year of getting GC with a PD of Jul 2007. In 2011 there may be a chance to get EAD / AP but IMHO even that seems less to me as all calculations just take us to Mar - Apr 2007, Jul 2007 is 10K numbers far from that and USCIS-DOS will not go with that big a buffer. However the real question is how they would like to plan for next year assuming the economy and filings stay in the same range. If the dates are not opened up then for 9 months we will hardly have any movement and the chance for 485 filing will come only in Jul - Sep 2012 and if they are able to even associate a cap number with the case then GC will also come by the same year, however if they fail to associate a cap number that may mean another year of wait for GC. However for folks like me getting EAD / AP is a big thing as it helps to get out of the H1B loop which is getting very difficult especially for those of us who work for consulting companies. My H1b expires in Sep 2012 I hope even in the most pessimistic scenario I get EAD / AP by then. However lets all hope for bigger movement. The end of 2011 and 2012 will be interesting the following possibilities are there a) dates made literally current (less likely, I would really like it to happen though) b) Controlled forward movement (Likely, I agree with our good friend Spectator, they may open the gate to push forward a year and retrogress or something calculated based on I140 filing there were some reports on that) c) Dates not being opened up for EB2 I/C and numbers going to EB3 ROW (I believe that this may not happen but cannot be ruled out).
Teddy, if #3 were to be avoided then it is imperative that USCIS moves the date beyond Jul-07 or even into 2008 for EB2I at least 6 months prior to Sep 12. That's how much typically would suffice for normal 485 processing. Right?
So if the date doesn't move to Jul-07 by Mar 12 then EB2 visas will be wasted (and moved to EB3).
Note: - Typo said 2011 earlier on. Corrected to 2012.
Lets refine it a bit I guess we are both saying the same thing.
- The chances of the dates reaching Jul 2007 on the strength of SOFAD are less not impossible, maybe less than 10% chances. So in 2011 the chances of wastage are minimal even if they don't move the dates they may still have a buffer of 5K which is good enough to avoid any wastage. However huge fall in EB1 or FB spillover can still accelerate this to Sep 2011 so it cannot be ruled out.
- I fully agree with you the dates must be moved significantly forward prior to Sep 2012 atleast 6 months to a year in advance so that the rule and INA is honored as the numbers go to EB2 I/C rather than EB3 ROW. Numbers will go to EB3 ROW if the gate is opened at the 11th hour I hope DOS plans for that.
- It may be really prudent to have an intake of say 30K EB2 I/C China applications in Sep 2011 itself it does not break the line in anyway those whose dates are earlier and preadjudicated will still get approved first and USCIS / DOS have a good pipeline to work on. You are right this point will be either in late 2007 or early 2008 in terms of PD.
- I believe the big issue is the quarterly spillover not happening and all action for EB2 I/C being virtually limited to the last quarter this is what will make things haphazard.
Thanks for the comment. Politeness costs nothing and lack of it is usually inexcusable.
Not agreeing, or holding a differing position doesn't need to alter that.
I am sure your PD will be Current by the end of FY2012. I admire your stoicism and general good humour throughout an extremely difficult time.
I thought it might be worth expanding on my position to solicit some comment and so that you understand it.
We all agree that EB1 and EB2-ROW hold the key to the amount of SOFAD, as well as FB spillover which is sadly lacking this year.
EB1
Historically, this category has always held up reasonably well and there has been a trend towards increasing numbers of approvals in this Category.
For EB1A and EB1B at least, I think this is fairly recession proof. Even in a recession, there is still a demand for these people.
If any subcategory were to be hit, it would probably be EB1C. This could be significant, since EB1C has made up c. 60% of EB1 approvals in recent years. I don't think it would make much difference to the Fortune 500 type of Company, but I am not sure about the dynamics involving the Consultancy industry and how Companies such as WiPro, TCS etc use this category.
The evidence we have, suggests that EB1 held up very well last FY. If EB1C approvals drop, I think some of that slack will be taken up by increased EB1A and EB1B approvals.
As you alluded to, Trackitt as a tool seems to have lost some of its value for analysing EB1.
It never covered many EB1 applications - judged against the Primary applicant, 0.68% in FY2008, 1.24% in FY2009 and around 0.86% in FY2010.
With such small percentages and the fact that they have varied wildly it becomes very difficult to equate Trackitt approvals to total approvals during the FY.
It was also noticeable last FY that the number of EB1C approvals on Trackitt dropped dramatically. That might have reflected reality, but given that EB1C candidates were getting a lot of flak on the forum, it may also have just reflected fewer people adding their cases. The answer to that question will come with the publication of the Visa Statistics for FY2010 and the DHS Yearbook of Immigration Statistics.
EB2-ROW
Trackitt ratios have remained fairly consistent for this group at 2.03% in FY2008, 2.19% in FY2009 and probably the same again FY2010.
For FY2010, at around 24-25k ROW approvals, spill across looks like 6-7k, with another 3k from the unused allocations for Mexico and Philippines, giving a combined total of 9-10k.
Whilst I think that ROW approvals might drop a bit, it seems too much of a stretch that combined ROW/M/P approvals would drop from 27-28k to just 13k.
I am aware of the drop in PERM approvals in recent years and the question of backlog reduction that may have been happening in previous years. I don't pretend to have a very good understanding of these factors.
I think the increased speed of PERM approval will offset some of this.
I also have a nagging doubt about the level of backlog reduction there was last year. It comes about through looking at the I-140 figures from the USCIS dashboard.
The figures I have for FY2008 are incomplete, but the totals for the final quarter are 18,109 receipts and 44,620 completions, suggesting that backlog reduction was in progress.
In FY2009, USCIS received 57,010 I-140 receipts, whilst completing 155,482.
That suggests that there was backlog reduction.
In FY2010, USCIS received 77,280 I-140 receipts, whilst completing 73,705.
That is not only a huge increase of I-140 receipts on FY2009, but it also suggests that there was no or little backlog reduction.
As an aside, from the limited data it looks like FY2009 was low and that the full FY2008 might have been similar to FY2010 for receipt numbers. Impossible to say.
I am therefore looking at SOFAD as more in the 25k to low 30k range, rather than the 37k that has been mentioned.
I wonder what you guys think.
Spec i love your detail, analysis and impassionate arguments. I dont see anything that I can really disagree w. As you said, the year book will provide great insight into where the numbers went.
the only place I would differ if at all, would be about backlog reduction. The numbers you quote for 09 and 10 for I140 could also mean that the backlog was already cleared in 2009 and 2010 remained that way. One could argue that in 2010 all these PERM approvals contributed to increase in I140 receipts and approvals. So as you can see USCIS has tried everything it can to beef up EB2-ROW. So in 2011 there is no way other than giving away significant SOFAD to EB2IC. However unfortunately FB spillover is missing and sothe numbers won't be huge.
Thanks for your analysis. You really have a great way of looking at things just like Teddy.
Thanks Q, even I felt it was a typo but just wrote a long story instead :). Thanks for your kind words as always and keeping our hopes and expectations realistic and alive.
Thanks Spec for your kind words. Lets discuss EB1 & EB2, I believe you are also EB2 India our situation unfortunately is like jackals and scavengers who will have the left over’s and that too we can have it only in Jul - Sep, if the lions and tigers eat everything we are doomed. All we can do is keep our spirits high as Q keeps saying just keep doing what you are doing and plan your life.
Agree with your comments on EB1 & EB2. I had done a percentage compare of EB1C 2009 V/S 2010 noticed a drop to 1/3rd. I believe that EB1 gave us ~ 5K SOFAD in 2010 while in 2009 it had consumed not only its own cap but bit into EB5. Now when we compare 2010 and 2011 on Trackitt unfortunately early days and with the miniscule representation the drop is 5-6 fold. I believe that EB1C actual fall may not be that drastic it will stabilize at some level, if it goes to even 1/2 of last year we may see EB1 giving 15K SOFAD which could boost the situation. Iam sure though that we may see atleast 10K SOFAD coming from EB1.
With regards EB2 ROW I believe 2010 saw the approvals for 2007, 2008 and 50% of 2009 cases. Perm approvals are coming within a month and EB2 ROW folks can go for concurrent filing so the end to end timing may well be just 6 months now. I agree with you that Trackitt data for EB2 ROW is pretty good. Around 2007 if somebody filed for I140 typically it used to take a year to two that is why maybe you would notice huge numbers in 2008 and 2009. Iam surprised though that the 2009 figures are that high though but it must be early 2009 mainly. Things in 2010 are so streamlined that folks are getting approvals in 2 days. Now coming to EB2 ROW decline refer to post # 142 I believe that Eb2 ROW might fall to 50% of last year the primary reason is that we are dealing with only 1 year of perm I140 rather than 2.5 Yrs last yr so 20K SOFAD from here looks just fine. Now Eb5 is being aggressively advertised this gave 7K last year it might well come down to 5K. All in all the SOFAD will go up to 36-37K. If ~ 6K goes towards catering to PD porting ~ 30K goes towards forward movement so Feb – Apr 2007 is very much in sight. Please critique / comment.
Teddy and Q,
One day, I will compose a post that is concise and to the point. One day. :)
I'll hold fire on EB1. I really want to see what happened to EB1C last year.
For EB2, remember that Mexico and Philippines do have approvals as well. They have been around 3k a year combined, but will probably drop somewhat.
Other than that I think the problem is more a philosophical one that I own entirely.
Teddy, I don't doubt your logic at all. You've probably realised that I give great weight to historic data and trends and I don't think I can change that. :p
EB2-ROW has shown itself to be incredibly resilient to changing factors and has had quite stable approval figures.
The demographics of the approvals are probably somewhat different to India and much less reliant on the IT sector and consulting model which has been hit harder than most.
I cannot, at this stage, subscribe to such a huge drop in approvals, despite the very good argument for it. That is my problem.
I admit that has a large degree of "gut feeling" in it.
Approvals in Trackitt are often quite "lumpy" and I think it is probably too early to extrapolate them.
For instance, currently there are 91 primary EB2-ROW approvals (after correcting for country of chargeability) in 54 days. Prorated that would give around 28k approvals for the year using last year's derived %.
Q, I understand what you are saying about the I-140 data. I need to think about it a bit more. If backlog reduction was essentially completed in FY2009, then doesn't that imply that the majority of the 24k I-485 ROW approvals were the result of new PERM / I-140 / I485 filings from FY2010 itself. If so, why would it be any different in FY2011?
That is a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. As I have stated previously I don't feel entirely comfortable in that domain.
That brings me to a last point (honestly!). At some point, we might expect filings to increase as the economy comes out of recession. That will inevitably affect the demand from EB2-ROW and EB1C if it has been affected.
Do you guys have an opinion as to when that will happen? I have a suspicion that we have already reached or passed the low point as it affects EB immigration. That would inevitably reduce potential SOFAD in coming years.
I truly enjoy the discussion and how different approaches merge together.
Spec
For the first part of your question below - the EB2-ROW demand until this year is an artificially boosted demand through clearance of I-140 and PERM backlogs. Now that those queues are more or less empty ... any new demand in EB2ROW will be flowing through all 3 steps in the same year. Traditionally that number at max is 17K (pls see historical normal average). Now the current situation is far from normal and thats why I would imagine that EB2ROW probably would only need 8-12K in 2011. We should expect reasonable fall-across from EB2ROW.
On the second question - when should we expect to see EB demand go up, well my gut feel is that the level of NEW EB filings is inversely proportional to "TRUE TOTAL UNEMPLOYMENT" in the US. It would be unbelievably difficult for labor dept to approve any new foreign labor or for USCIS to approve any new I-140 even if it is based on EB1.
Personally I do not see any significant change in 2011 compared to 2010 or 2009. Pls remember just to keep pace with the increasing population the job pool has to go up by 1%. So if it doesn't then effectively it is adding 1% decrease in the total unemployment every year.
So what does this mean for EB? It means a sooner end to their misery than otherwise wouldve been possible.
Spec let’s put it another way we all agree that except for EB1-A and EB1-B all are hit by the recession. So EB2 is definitely going to be hit and 2009 was a really bad year with regards unemployment. FY 2010 saw the approval of 2007, 2008 and 50% 2009 cases. Remember 2007 and early 2008 was still good time. FY 2011 should see the rest of 2009 and 2010 maybe more than 50% because of the high pace of things. So practically the EB2 ROW demand in 2010 could well be half of what we have seen last year. The Trackitt ratio of 245 v/s 129 also kind of confirms this trend when we compare similar times in 2010 and 2011. I do agree with you that SOFAD will probably peak at a certain time and it probably cannot be higher than a certain number however 2011 is different in 2010 primarily in the sense that the backlogs in EB2 ROW are much less now everything is literally current. Had the perm and I140 processes not been speeded up last year we would have had atleast 10K of extra SOFAD. Q is right in his observations all out efforts and exceptional efforts were made to approve every possible case and then only EB2 I/C got SOFAD in the last quarter. Like you I also believe that EB1-C will decline further this year.
Referring to Trackitt following is the trend Comparing Oct - Nov 2009 and 2010.
EB2 ROW 2009 - 155
EB2 ROW 2010 - 88
EB1 2010 - 12 + 14 + 13
EB1 2009 - 35 + 66 + 50
We can kind of see that for both EB2 ROW and EB1 the approvals are down significantly which is good news though its still early days. For the upcoming bulletin I believe that EB3-I will reach Feb 15th 2002, however EB2-I may not move at all sadly because the 750 new numbers are insufficient to cause significant forward movement. However if EB2-I moves by a small duration than it would mean that PD porting is less than 3000 per annum for sure which would be great news as the current prediction budgets 6K for that. Expecting quarterly spillover is a little unrealistic going by past history however if see big movement it can be attributed only to quarterly spillover.
Thanks Teddy. I would imagine that in last year the backlog in 485 as well as the extra clearance of 140 and labor has flushed out ROW pipeline through and through.
So this year it will be mostly NEW demand from this year itself starting from labor through 485. I think thats why those numbers are down for EB2ROW.
EB1 is interesting but I would wait until few more months before we bank it.
What's the closest/safest multiple 20-21?
to get to a true number like: 155* 21 + 88 *21 = 5103?
This looks pretty realistic to me, however factors keep changing. But if we go be the percentage reduction approach the drop is pretty significant. atleast the EB2 ROW data is reliable if not EB1. Q can we say so definitively in say 2 more months for now even about EB1?
Hypothetical question to you, if EB1 also drops to 50% do you think that there is a chance of the dates crossing Jul 07. IMHO there is a 10% chance of it happening. Assuming that happens everybody whose 485 is filed will likely be approved and the PWMB's like me and Leo will get our chance to file for 485. I can imagine not having FB is a big hit if that was there than the chances were good, however in 2010 the FB component was added mid year so it may still be a little early to throw in the towel on that.
For EB2I it is about 25. For EB2C it would be much higher given that they don't use trackitt as much. ROW use of trackitt is better. So its ok to use 25 for EB2ROW.
For EB1 though the margin of error would be quite high. And so a better approach - as Teddy suggested - would be to use % reduction.
Teddy, in 2 months yes %red approach for EB1 would work better because by that time Q1 spillover will have been applied (if at all) for EB1!
If 50% EB 1 drop is confirmed then EB2IC backlog through may 07 will be cleared. Jun-Jul has 6K combined! But as far as EB2IC dates being currrent I think the chance they will be made current (if EB YoY 50% reduction is true) is quite high.