Yup, i agree with you. It will be nice to have Grassley, lift the hold but he is not going to so It will be actually easy to convince either Reid to ignore d hold and proceed and take fillibuster risk (if he can do that) or find 16 senators to file clotureQuote:
Originally Posted by Jonty Rhodes
There is increasing momentum by unemployed US citizen techie groups to fight this bill using the argument that it increases IT green cards and thus encourages more IT folks to apply for jobs in the US.
The argument would be disproved if we can show that Indians & Chinese do not form a larger % of IT employees than ROW. In other words, when an Indian IT applicant takes his rightful place in the queue, it is a ROW IT applicant that is being displaced and not a ROW doctor/accountant/chef. I believe the numbers that would prove/disprove this hypothesis is here:
http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CasePerm.aspx
Does someone here have MS Access? If so, can you dig through and see what the numbers say?
What we need is % of IT Perms filed (or H1Bs) split amonst different countries. i.e., % of Indian PERMS that are IT related, % of Chinese PERMs that are IT related, % of all ROW PERMS that are IT related.
These techie groups are traditionally anti-immigrant. They are not really against workers or for American workers they are against a particular race. H1B and GC in this country is predominantly for IT workers. This is the largest pool taking advantage of this visa. So their argument that this bill increase IT folks coming to US won't fly. Why should ROW IT workers get priority over Indian/Chinese worker ? They are just workers, country of birth doesn't matter. That is the very purpose of this bill.
I reiterate my point, EB immigration doesn't discriminate between professions. A candidate is either EB1/EB2/EB3/EB4/EB5 as per immigration law. Immigration law does not care whether the applicant is an IT guy/doctor/financial analyst etc. So their argument is flawed. No need to even counter them.
Who is backing this bill ? Compete america, majority of which are comprised of Tech companies.
Pedro,
Where did you get that info about that techie group ?
Gcq, By momentum, i mean there are two separate groups that seem to be antiHR3012 for now. The note on the programmer's guild from you and a post was the first, and trackitt that led me to a blog that i'll PM you with the url of. You probably saw it already. I don't want to publish the url as I'd rather not drive additional traffic to the site.
what a sh*t show ? Everyones looking out for their own agendas. No one is looking at the bigger picture. that's the problem with politics in a democracy.
You might not like the answer, but here you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro Gonzales
These figures are for FY2010, but they are the same for FY2009 and FY2011 using US ECONOMIC SECTOR from the PERM data.
IT
CHINA --------- 2.77%
INDIA -------- 78.89%
MEXICO -------- 0.53%
PHILIPPINES --- 1.11%
ROW ---------- 16.70%
Total % ----- 100.00%
Around 2/3 of Indian PERM filings are either IT (55%) or Advanced Manufacturing (Semiconductors) (12%).
In contrast, the % of total ROW PERM filings for IT are 10.80% and for China 13.55%. Only 3.18% of Mexico's PERM filings and 6.66% of Philippines PERMs are in IT.
Other Areas:
Health Care
CHINA --------- 1.68%
INDIA -------- 21.74%
MEXICO -------- 1.05%
PHILIPPINES -- 23.82%
ROW ---------- 51.71%
Total % ----- 100.00%
Educational Services
CHINA -------- 11.21%
INDIA -------- 12.20%
MEXICO -------- 4.40%
PHILIPPINES --- 6.63%
ROW ---------- 65.56%
Total % ----- 100.00%
I am not n IT guy but if i am not wrong tech sector unemployment is below 4% and it is growing so there is a demand. and majority of IT is not one of the sectors like retail where you just train someone for 3 months and they can acquire all skills needed for that job.
Great Spectator: I am assuming your numbers on healthcare include nurses too.
Sorry for replying on behalf of Spectator. I think that is correct. Philippines doesn't send lot of physicians. They mainly send nurses. Their ratio of Physicians:Nurses is 1:9. For India, it is opposite that is Physicians:Nurses, 8:2. This is not an exact number and I also don't have any data to support it but that is what a general consensus would be if you ask any Indian and Philippino physician or a nurse.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbrown_890
Again, this is my assessment based on my experience and my interactions with other people in health care. I could be wrong.
jackbrown,Quote:
Originally Posted by jackbrown_890
That is a good question and I nearly added some comments about them.
Generally nurses will not be included for several reasons.
Primarily, nurses do not go through the PERM process because they fall under Schedule A.
When separate Schedule A visas were last available (50k recaptured), they covered PDs up to late 2005.
The usage of these visas was Philippines - 80%, India - 20% and ROW - 20%
Neither are the majority of nurses eligible for H1B, because their qualification is not considered equivalent to a Bachelors. Hence the huge number from the Philippines on the EB3 NVC waiting list.
Neither will all the Doctors be captured, since many will use the EB2-NIW route which does not require a PERM. I've never seen any figures for what % NIW is of EB2, let alone any breakdown of its usage.
Obviously that does distort the figures somewhat, but probably not in a meaningful way. Philippines would be a higher % of the Healthcare sector. The Bill doesn't really help them in the short term at all anyway.
Looking at Spect's statistics, it does not give an argument for ROW either.
Indians are predominantly IT folks, doctor's etc whereas ROW is mostly concentrated in Educational services ( I guess teachers etc).
IT vs educational services, that is what it boils down to.
I agree. Things are slowly turning ugly. Everyone wants to take this roller coaster ride on the back of this bill with their own agenda. Indians and Chinese want to decrease their wait time and make it same for everybody. ROW do not want their wait times increased even by few months to 2 years. Latinos want DREAM act to pass. Now, Irish are joining this battle out of nowhere. We all call ourselves an immigrant community living in a globalized world and we take pride in that. But when it comes to obtaining GC, every good stuff that we speak and believe in, is thrown straight out of the window. How can any bill, regardless of how simple and how non-controversial it is, pass in this hostile environment? I have stopped going to Trekitt because the ROW has just initiated a blitzkrieg starting new threads every few minutes and there is an all out open-forum war between ROW and India. Chinese are discussing on their own separate forums. I hope ** keeps a hold of things and I wish them luck in their backdoor advocacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by vizcard
When this bill was introduced, I was really anxious about whether it will pass or not but now I think, it is even futile to get anxious over it because when everyone is trying to jump the bandwagon pursuing their own agenda and you can't do a darn thing about it, basically you don't have any other choice but to keep playing your own part and contribute to the cause as much as you can which I will keep doing. Lets hope for the best.
This is the least controversial bill ever. Of course ROW doesn't like it. Otherwise this bill has widespread support. For a moment consider adding recapture to this bill. Opposition will be 1000 times stronger. ROW don't realize that. In 2008 a recapture bill was introduced. We all campaigned just like the way we did for this bill. However that bill had a huge opposition though it was only a recapture bill. Organizations that ROW is running to today, opposed that bill saying it as increase in visa numbers. Ultimately that bill never passed house judiciary committee.
gcq,Quote:
Originally Posted by gcq
Easily done, but that is not correct.
Educational Services PERMs only represent 9.94% of the total PERM Certified for all Countries.
Of those, ROW represented 51.71%.
In terms of ROW total PERM certifications, Educational Services represented 14.94%.
Whereas the top 2 sectors represented 67% of Indian PERM certifications, the top 2 sectors for ROW accounted for only 35%, so they are spread wider across the whole economy.
Any bill which is bipartisan have opposition with various interest group. This bill will be discussed in Senate Judiciary committee and will be passed for good. the very reason that opposition is more and more is, Logically if any sensible person reads the bill it is non-contoversial. So there is 90 % chance this bill will become law. may be with some amendments. Opposition makes this bill more stronger. Taking out country quota even Grassley will agree to it. if there was no hurt in him in the form of failed H1 /L1 reform bill, which was antibusiness and illogical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonty Rhodes
Spect,
Despite these statistics, ROW does not have a point. As these are employer sponsored visas, demand for each field is dictated by economy. IT has the highest demand, India and China happens to have the largest pool of workers to satisfy the demand, so they provide it.
Blocking 93% visas to India and China applicants will force them to move to their home countries creating vast pool of resources there. This will force American companies to move their offices abroad. Many companies are already doing it.
Also talking about overall diversity, i don't buy the diversity argument. i think US should allow more Indian and Chinese people. If you consider total population of the world - Since 1 in every 3 people in this world is either Indian or Chinese (33%)...the ratio in US is no where close to that number..almost 73% people are white and total asian population is below 5% and that number includes all other asian countries. I am not saying they should match the ratio of world population...but the argument of this bill will not allow diversity, does not make sense. also, The fastest growing ethnicity in US is hispanic ..not Asian..so adding more asians for next 20-25 years thru EB actually will make it more diverse.
USATODAY reported about this: Interesting: I think eventually lot of new immigrants will end up like this if they don't reform immigration system:
http://www.blueseed.co/
Getting a visa to live and work in the U.S. can be hard, even for highly skilled immigrants and foreign entrepreneurs looking to start businesses. A California start-up company may have found a way to get around those time-consuming, hard-to-get visas. The company is planning to anchor a ship capable of holding 1,000 people off California's shore — far enough away to be in international waters but close enough to Silicon Valley so occupants, using easier-to-obtain tourist visas and short-term business visas, can hop a quick ferry ride to meet with tech employers and investors on shore.
Here s the full article: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...hip/51646138/1
If it was that easy for a senator to hold a bill, why did republicans who are against health care bill allowed for debate? Do they have power to hold only so and so bills but not all?
Because Reid filed Cloture at that time so there was a hold placed on Healthcare bill too back in 09Quote:
Originally Posted by familyguy
He was a majority leader back thn and he still is now....so he or someone else can file a cloture and bring it up for debate/vote if cloture is approved...
Nicely explained here about Fillibuster
http://thisnation.com/question/037.html
How can a filibuster be stopped?
A filibuster can be stopped when the Senate invokes cloture. This can be an arduous task in and of itself. To invoke cloture, a Senator needs to do the following:
Wait two days after a filibuster begins.
Obtain sixteen signatures on a motion to invoke cloture.
Wait another two days before the Senate can vote on cloture.
Make sure that three-fifths of the Senate (sixty Senators) vote to end debate.
Endure and additional thirty hours of debate before the final roll call vote
If Grassley is not withdrawing the hold. definitely he will try to fillibuster, then the only solution is above.
I don't think diversity argument should apply to EB immigration. If i have a company, i know for certain that i will not think of hiring a German or Australian etc because i have recruited an India, Chinese etc. Instead I will look for an individual who can fit into the position(whatever nation he belongs to). If diversity is the case, then why do they have Diversity lottery every year. They can simply remove them and give those to EB.
You cannot have a company.. you don't have a GC :P ... just kidding. I'm with you though... when we go through the Labor process, they don't ask for country of nationality. It would be discrimination and grounds for a lawsuit if that was done.Quote:
Originally Posted by narendarrao
Even the House of Representatives has numbers based on population in each state. How about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by jackbrown_890
Thanks Jackbrown and Kanmani for taking time and explaining about cloture.
For HR 3012, I do not think cloture will be invoked as it is not of that importance. lets see though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanmani
Friends
I was just watching CNN and saw an ad from FAIR and the ad talked about reducing legal immigration. This is the first ad against legal immigration that I have ever seen. This is very concerning
Regards
Nat