Bills, Rules & Politics

In the midst of all other hysteria, this part of the EO is getting little to no mention anywhere. What are the ramifications here? As far as I could research, if DOL revokes a PERM then the I-140 revocation protection from the AC21 rule is lost with it. This will have implications on post 6th year extension. Especially of interest if ppl. are using the post 6th year extension based on an approved PERM/I-140 filed through their previous employer as they likely won't be aware if the DOL has sent a notice of intent to revoke which automatically kicks in if the employer doesn't respond within 30 days. I suspect why any former employer would actually care to act on any such DOL revoke requests and also I'm not sure what happens if that prior employer went out of business. In continuation from my prior posts, I want to ask the pundits here for thoughts!!

(b) The Secretary of Labor shall, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, as soon as practicable, and consistent with applicable law, consider promulgating regulations or take other appropriate action to ensure that the presence in the United States of aliens who have been admitted or otherwise provided a benefit, or who are seeking admission or a benefit, pursuant to an EB-2 or EB-3 immigrant visa or an H-1B nonimmigrant visa does not disadvantage United States workers in violation of section 212(a)(5)(A) or (n)(1) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)(5)(A) or (n)(1)). The Secretary of Labor shall also undertake, as appropriate, investigations pursuant to section 212(n)(2)(G)(i) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1182(n)(2)(G)(i)).

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

In the midst of all other hysteria, this part of the EO is getting little to no mention anywhere. What are the ramifications here? As far as I could research, if DOL revokes a PERM then the I-140 revocation protection from the AC21 rule is lost with it. This will have implications on post 6th year extension. Especially of interest if ppl. are using the post 6th year extension based on an approved PERM/I-140 filed through their previous employer. In continuation from my prior posts, I want to ask the pundits here for thoughts!!

(b) The Secretary of Labor shall, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, as soon as practicable, and consistent with applicable law, consider promulgating regulations or take other appropriate action to ensure that the presence in the United States of aliens who have been admitted or otherwise provided a benefit, or who are seeking admission or a benefit, pursuant to an EB-2 or EB-3 immigrant visa or an H-1B nonimmigrant visa does not disadvantage United States workers in violation of section 212(a)(5)(A) or (n)(1) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)(5)(A) or (n)(1)). The Secretary of Labor shall also undertake, as appropriate, investigations pursuant to section 212(n)(2)(G)(i) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1182(n)(2)(G)(i)).

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and consistent with applicable law - does this mean that it has to confirm with AC21 portability law?
pursuant to an EB-2 or EB-3 immigrant visa or an H-1B nonimmigrant - this would impact mostly countries that are backlogged meaning India and to some extent China, and why is this not applicable for EB1, is it because they don't need a PERM?

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Originally Posted by srimurthy

and consistent with applicable law - does this mean that it has to confirm with AC21 portability law?
pursuant to an EB-2 or EB-3 immigrant visa or an H-1B nonimmigrant - this would impact mostly countries that are backlogged meaning India and to some extent China, and why is this not applicable for EB1, is it because they don't need a PERM?

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Yes. Since EB1 doesn't require a PERM. Regardless, I still believe this will require rule-making from DOL. AC21 rule specifically has language protecting a beneficiary from the previous employer (who filed the underlying PERM) going out of business for instance. So I see quite a few conflicts here. This the problem with painting with a broad brush. In some fashion a proper congressional legislation that makes specific changes to address the abuse in the visa system will be much better served. I see many unintended consequences and collateral damage by this using a shovel instead of a scalpel approach!

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

In the midst of all other hysteria, this part of the EO is getting little to no mention anywhere. What are the ramifications here? As far as I could research, if DOL revokes a PERM then the I-140 revocation protection from the AC21 rule is lost with it. This will have implications on post 6th year extension. Especially of interest if ppl. are using the post 6th year extension based on an approved PERM/I-140 filed through their previous employer as they likely won't be aware if the DOL has sent a notice of intent to revoke which automatically kicks in if the employer doesn't respond within 30 days. I suspect why any former employer would actually care to act on any such DOL revoke requests and also I'm not sure what happens if that prior employer went out of business. In continuation from my prior posts, I want to ask the pundits here for thoughts!!

(b) The Secretary of Labor shall, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, as soon as practicable, and consistent with applicable law, consider promulgating regulations or take other appropriate action to ensure that the presence in the United States of aliens who have been admitted or otherwise provided a benefit, or who are seeking admission or a benefit, pursuant to an EB-2 or EB-3 immigrant visa or an H-1B nonimmigrant visa does not disadvantage United States workers in violation of section 212(a)(5)(A) or (n)(1) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)(5)(A) or (n)(1)). The Secretary of Labor shall also undertake, as appropriate, investigations pursuant to section 212(n)(2)(G)(i) of the INA (8 U.S.C. 1182(n)(2)(G)(i)).

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Regulatory changes take time and the admin does not have much time before the election to make a change and tout that change to garner more votes. This is all about votes and the optics leading to that. If there is a Faux news or Breitshart headline saying, "PERMS TO BE RECERTIFIED!!!", most of their readers will be like, "what?!". But if they say, "Americans are getting their jobs back as we are halting visas", it's more simple and gets traction. Not trying to minimize the seriousness of this clause, but the amount of wrangling it will take to unravel the PERM process accounting for all the different scenarios and AC21 rules, they might as well say no EB2/EB3 for the foreseeable future, only EB1 and EB4/5 until things improve which will take some heavy lifting in Congress. That's why it also says "consistent with applicable law" in which case there is no law on the books which easily accomplishes that (I am not a lawyer, just in case). This is modus operandi for this admin from the get go, they will launch something extreme and then settle for something below that but still temper expectations among their base saying hey at least we did this, the previous guy did nothing.

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Originally Posted by Turbulent_Dragonfly

Regulatory changes take time and the admin does not have much time before the election to make a change and tout that change to garner more votes. This is all about votes and the optics leading to that. If there is a Faux news or Breitshart headline saying, "PERMS TO BE RECERTIFIED!!!", most of their readers will be like, "what?!". But if they say, "Americans are getting their jobs back as we are halting visas", it's more simple and gets traction. Not trying to minimize the seriousness of this clause, but the amount of wrangling it will take to unravel the PERM process accounting for all the different scenarios and AC21 rules, they might as well say no EB2/EB3 for the foreseeable future, only EB1 and EB4/5 until things improve which will take some heavy lifting in Congress. That's why it also says "consistent with applicable law" in which case there is no law on the books which easily accomplishes that (I am not a lawyer, just in case). This is modus operandi for this admin from the get go, they will launch something extreme and then settle for something below that but still temper expectations among their base saying hey at least we did this, the previous guy did nothing.

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100% agree. I just played out a scenario. As stated in my previous post, all these measures will have to go through rule-making. Its way more rhetoric than anything at this point.

First of all certified Perms cannot be revoked without cause. In other words, unless they find misrepresentation or fraud and prove it, the certifications cannot be revoked. The employer has spent time and money to go through the process and the admin cannot arbitrarily ask them to go through it again unless they are willing to spend the money on behalf of employer. Retroactive application of laws is unconstitutional and in this case, it will have to be done through rule making.

Also, the validity of certifications is codified in law through AC21, but only for those who have already filed 485, at least that is the current interpretation. The Obama admin went the regulation route to add few more protections, but did not go far enough to allow people to file 485 when dates are not current. They originally planned to do that but backed out after their DAPA was met with court challenge.

Worst case, even if the admin goes through rule making, my guess is it would apply for new applications. Having said that, the admin can do anything as there is no precedent for the current admins norms.

My guess is admin will try to rework wage levels to maybe 3 instead of the current 4 levels. They may also push for increasing the wage level with every extension to account for the experience or can force labor market test if staying at same level.

All we can do is guess at this time. There are numerous scenarios that may or may not pan out.

Let’s wait and see how this all plays out.

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Originally Posted by eaglenow

First of all certified Perms cannot be revoked without cause. In other words, unless they find misrepresentation or fraud and prove it, the certifications cannot be revoked. The employer has spent time and money to go through the process and the admin cannot arbitrarily ask them to go through it again unless they are willing to spend the money on behalf of employer. Retroactive application of laws is unconstitutional and in this case, it will have to be done through rule making.

Also, the validity of certifications is codified in law through AC21, but only for those who have already filed 485, at least that is the current interpretation. The Obama admin went the regulation route to add few more protections, but did not go far enough to allow people to file 485 when dates are not current. They originally planned to do that but backed out after their DAPA was met with court challenge.

Worst case, even if the admin goes through rule making, my guess is it would apply for new applications. Having said that, the admin can do anything as there is no precedent for the current admins norms.

My guess is admin will try to rework wage levels to maybe 3 instead of the current 4 levels. They may also push for increasing the wage level with every extension to account for the experience or can force labor market test if staying at same level.

All we can do is guess at this time. There are numerous scenarios that may or may not pan out.

Let’s wait and see how this all plays out.

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Here is some commentary from Stuart Anderson in Forbes -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuarta.../#253d2b7a3ce5

Key excerpts. I'm not a lawyer but I would like to get the views of Oracles here or even Q -

1) First, section 212(a)(5)(A) states that a labor certification should be done “at the time of application for a visa and admission.” Wasden said, “There is nothing in the statute that anticipates a continuing labor market test.”

2) American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act, passed in 2000, Congress included specific provisions to protect workers who went through labor certification and needed to wait inside the United States (and continue working) until an immigrant visa became available. If an application for adjustment of status has been filed, employers can file extensions for H-1B visa holders to remain beyond 6 years “if 365 days or more have elapsed since – (1) the filing of a labor certification application on the alien’s behalf . . . or (2) the filing of the petition under such section 204(b).”

“There is clear statutory language and direction from Congress, which created provisions to allow workers to stay in the country while they wait for their green card,” said Wasden. “A proposed regulation as indicated in the proclamation would nullify the work of Congress, and I don’t think that will work out well for the government if they try and do that.”

1. There is specific statute about long pending adjustment applications, which explicitly specifies that once 485 stays pending beyond 180 days, the certification will continue to be valid for same or similar jobs. So they cannot revoke certifications for pending 485.

2. For others, it is certainly gray area, but as mentioned by the lawyer above, it can be challenged as the previous regulation stipulates that labor cert is valid for 180 days for filing 140 and expires after that IF 140 is not filed by that time. But there is no regulation that states that labor will expire after filing 140 within the 180 day window. This is due to how the statute is interpreted through current regulations. But one caveat is the “at the time of filing and admission” in statute. This is reason for 140 time window from labor. If they change this to 485 filing, it would get murky.

But doing so now is basically reversing previous regulation. They have to consider the impact of this and evaluate the same similar to reasoning of DACA. This is basically reversing of rules with retroactive effect. This can be done but will be challenged in court.

3. What they can do is enable this for future filings and labor. Again it may be challenged but the impact is not retroactive, which may or may not be turned down by courts.

4. What they can do is rework wage levels to 3 instead of 4, this will in turn raise the average wage.

5. Another provision they could implement is rise in wage level commensurate with experience. So if filed in level 1 for first time, the next extension could force level 2 and so on. If not force a labor test.

There are a few other remote scenarios. But in a nutshell, I think 1 is no go, 2 very difficult, if not impossible, 3 is difficult but possible, will be challenged in court, 4 and 5 pretty likely with 5 kinds stretching it.

The other scenario could be based on wage levels, they can determine whether to recertify.

All of these are speculations, but With this admin anything goes. We can only hope US will remain fair and not do things retroactively.

The article states lca/perm certifications can be revoled or expired.
Can it be done? As both are legal documents without an expiry date. If so, is EAD also impacted or just h1b?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuarta.../#7f639b933ce5

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Originally Posted by bloddy1

The article states lca/perm certifications can be revoled or expired.
Can it be done? As both are legal documents without an expiry date. If so, is EAD also impacted or just h1b?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuarta.../#7f639b933ce5

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Did you see that I posted the same article above and we did have discussions about it. I would encourage you to read above :).

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Originally Posted by eaglenow

1. There is specific statute about long pending adjustment applications, which explicitly specifies that once 485 stays pending beyond 180 days, the certification will continue to be valid for same or similar jobs. So they cannot revoke certifications for pending 485.

2. For others, it is certainly gray area, but as mentioned by the lawyer above, it can be challenged as the previous regulation stipulates that labor cert is valid for 180 days for filing 140 and expires after that IF 140 is not filed by that time. But there is no regulation that states that labor will expire after filing 140 within the 180 day window. This is due to how the statute is interpreted through current regulations. But one caveat is the “at the time of filing and admission” in statute. This is reason for 140 time window from labor. If they change this to 485 filing, it would get murky.

But doing so now is basically reversing previous regulation. They have to consider the impact of this and evaluate the same similar to reasoning of DACA. This is basically reversing of rules with retroactive effect. This can be done but will be challenged in court.

3. What they can do is enable this for future filings and labor. Again it may be challenged but the impact is not retroactive, which may or may not be turned down by courts.

4. What they can do is rework wage levels to 3 instead of 4, this will in turn raise the average wage.

5. Another provision they could implement is rise in wage level commensurate with experience. So if filed in level 1 for first time, the next extension could force level 2 and so on. If not force a labor test.

There are a few other remote scenarios. But in a nutshell, I think 1 is no go, 2 very difficult, if not impossible, 3 is difficult but possible, will be challenged in court, 4 and 5 pretty likely with 5 kinds stretching it.

The other scenario could be based on wage levels, they can determine whether to recertify.

All of these are speculations, but With this admin anything goes. We can only hope US will remain fair and not do things retroactively.

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I think its the immigrant intent that's the question here. It is clear from the statute that the Congress clearly had an intent to keep H1Bs post 6 years until their LPR is approved (Remember: H1B is a dual intent visa). Period! Courts take that seriously if retroactive harm is made. Also, needless to say the class action lawsuits by both employee and employer groups that will follow (remember H4 EAD revocation which was once thought to be lame duck for revocation is still facing so much legal roadblocks after almost 4 years). Also, if it was that simple with this administration it would have already happened!!

Last but not the least, as an eternal optimist I would also point out that there is an election in about 120 days and who knows we might be having totally different conversations after that!

Additional read: http://blog.cyrusmehta.com/2018/01/n...lf-deport.html

I found this legal analysis of sections 104(C) and 106(a) of INA that came into effect through the American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act (AC21). I talks about congressional intent and prior legal precedence on causing retroactive harm. Although this time around the administration may take the DOL route instead of the active DHS path it may have tried in 2017/2018 the intent is just the same. Somehow get rid of millions of legal immigrants waiting in line to adjust which is the case in point here.

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Originally Posted by eaglenow

1. There is specific statute about long pending adjustment applications, which explicitly specifies that once 485 stays pending beyond 180 days, the certification will continue to be valid for same or similar jobs. So they cannot revoke certifications for pending 485.

2. For others, it is certainly gray area, but as mentioned by the lawyer above, it can be challenged as the previous regulation stipulates that labor cert is valid for 180 days for filing 140 and expires after that IF 140 is not filed by that time. But there is no regulation that states that labor will expire after filing 140 within the 180 day window. This is due to how the statute is interpreted through current regulations. But one caveat is the “at the time of filing and admission” in statute. This is reason for 140 time window from labor. If they change this to 485 filing, it would get murky.

But doing so now is basically reversing previous regulation. They have to consider the impact of this and evaluate the same similar to reasoning of DACA. This is basically reversing of rules with retroactive effect. This can be done but will be challenged in court.

3. What they can do is enable this for future filings and labor. Again it may be challenged but the impact is not retroactive, which may or may not be turned down by courts.

4. What they can do is rework wage levels to 3 instead of 4, this will in turn raise the average wage.

5. Another provision they could implement is rise in wage level commensurate with experience. So if filed in level 1 for first time, the next extension could force level 2 and so on. If not force a labor test.

There are a few other remote scenarios. But in a nutshell, I think 1 is no go, 2 very difficult, if not impossible, 3 is difficult but possible, will be challenged in court, 4 and 5 pretty likely with 5 kinds stretching it.

The other scenario could be based on wage levels, they can determine whether to recertify.

All of these are speculations, but With this admin anything goes. We can only hope US will remain fair and not do things retroactively.

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"For others, it is certainly gray area, but as mentioned by the lawyer above, it can be challenged as the previous regulation stipulates that labor cert is valid for 180 days for filing 140 and expires after that IF 140 is not filed by that time. But there is no regulation that states that labor will expire after filing 140 within the 180 day window. This is due to how the statute is interpreted through current regulations. But one caveat is the “at the time of filing and admission” in statute. This is reason for 140 time window from labor. If they change this to 485 filing, it would get murky."

I disagree with you. This is not a grey area.

104(c) clearly states that three year extensions can be granted indefinitely until the “alien’s application for adjustment of status has been processed and a decision made thereon.” For the folks who have an approved I-140, a formal I-485 has not been filed because the priority date is not yet current due to the very same INA's 7% country cap for immigrant visas. Only when the PD gets current the alien will/can legally file for adjustment. Until the AOS is filed it can't be processed and decision cannot be made as a result until all of that happen (filing, processing and approval) h1b extensions should be granted. Also, USCIS as an agency for the past 2 decades set a precedence for that so to retroactively change it will be considered capricious and arbitrary clearly. Also, it will directly strike the heart of do no universal harm doctrine for drafting regulations by courts.

Trump May Attempt To Force Long-Time H-1B Visa Holders Out Of U.S.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/06/25/trump-may-attempt-to-force-long-time-h-1b-visa-holders-out-of-us/#5ab925573ce5

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Trump May Attempt To Force Long-Time H-1B Visa Holders Out Of U.S.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2020/06/25/trump-may-attempt-to-force-long-time-h-1b-visa-holders-out-of-us/#5ab925573ce5

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Q - I shared the same article above yesterday @ 10:29 AM and we have been having a few back and forth discussion on that. Your thoughts are welcome!

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

Q - I shared the same article above yesterday @ 10:29 AM and we have been having a few back and forth discussion on that. Your thoughts are welcome!

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oops! I am so behind the curve I guess!

The only thing I will add is - with this president - there are no rules and no limits. It will be foolish to discount this threat. Today's rumor could very well become tomorrows news. Don't even try to rationalize this ...he has used Covid to expand restrictions unnecessarily. If you notice the DOS suspended consulates 1 month before Trump proclamation. He immediately seized the opportunity and claimed victory and passed it off as his idea. The first proclamation was nothing but reiteration and temporary continuation of status quo as forced by COVID. But now that they have tasted blood - here comes proclamation 2. And now we are hearing this.

As much as I wish this were untrue - my suggestion is - treat this as a real possibility and plan accordingly.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

oops! I am so behind the curve I guess!

The only thing I will add is - with this president - there are no rules and no limits. It will be foolish to discount this threat. Today's rumor could very well become tomorrows news. Don't even try to rationalize this ...he has used Covid to expand restrictions unnecessarily. If you notice the DOS suspended consulates 1 month before Trump proclamation. He immediately seized the opportunity and claimed victory and passed it off as his idea. The first proclamation was nothing but reiteration and temporary continuation of status quo as forced by COVID. But now that they have tasted blood - here comes proclamation 2. And now we are hearing this.

As much as I wish this were untrue - my suggestion is - treat this as a real possibility and plan accordingly.

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Yes. But there is legality involved here as this won't be about entry of immigrants that can be curtailed by just a proclamation. Anyways, agree that its always good to be prepared as such. Although, I don't really know what it means to be "prepared".

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

Yes. But there is legality involved here as this won't be about entry of immigrants that can be curtailed by just a proclamation. Anyways, agree that its always good to be prepared as such. Although, I don't really know what it means to be "prepared".

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I guess liquidate and ready to pack. The worst part for that 350K + 350K comes when they start talking about the kids. And what is the incentive for any one coming to do masters here. 50% of the students do masters because the value of bachelors is minimal in India and as a way to get into some IT or consulting with H1, so this will have a spiraling impact on universities and stuff over a period of time. But I guess who wants to look at the long term, its a matter of what you can market and sell at this moment.

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

Yes. But there is legality involved here as this won't be about entry of immigrants that can be curtailed by just a proclamation. Anyways, agree that its always good to be prepared as such. Although, I don't really know what it means to be "prepared".

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Imagine this - Trump just had michael flynn get off the hook after admitting twice to lying. Just follow the commentary of prosecutors all over the country. People are aghast that the whole justice system is going haywire. Speaking of immigrants, they have no power. All stars are aligned against them. What chance they may stand once Trump tries to subvert existing laws?

Sorry to be dismal. But what I mean by "be prepared" is - if i were in this situation - I would
1) Stay liquid.
2) Not buy home
3) have a child if you were postponing
etc etc ... everyone make your own determination ....

Also please don't panic. This is still just a rumor.

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Originally Posted by srimurthy

I guess liquidate and ready to pack. The worst part for that 350K + 350K comes when they start talking about the kids. And what is the incentive for any one coming to do masters here. 50% of the students do masters because the value of bachelors is minimal in India and as a way to get into some IT or consulting with H1, so this will have a spiraling impact on universities and stuff over a period of time. But I guess who wants to look at the long term, its a matter of what you can market and sell at this moment.

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Sri - in my own family in India - my brother's son is admitted to a top US university and my counsin's son admitted to another top univ -- both for masters. They received no scholarship or assistantship and are going to pay full out of state tuition. I am shocked. I myself obtained an MBA pretty much free back in 2000s! In fact I earned and saved money while doing an MBA.

I guess this actually will have positive impact on India by retaining talent back home. But for the people who are in Limbo - this is very stressful.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Imagine this - Trump just had michael flynn get off the hook after admitting twice to lying. Just follow the commentary of prosecutors all over the country. People are aghast that the whole justice system is going haywire. Immigrants have no power. All stars are aligned against.

Sorry to be dismal. But what I mean by be prepared is - if i were in this situation - is I would
1) stay liquid.
2) Not buy home
3) have a child if you were postponing
etc etc ... everyone make your own determination ....

Also please don't panic. This is still just a rumor.

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Its easy to say this. I would treat this as a rumor AND NOTHING MORE as of now. When panic meter goes up it crosses irrationality levels very quick. Also pardoning Flynn is very different from what we are talking about. Anyways I won't argue with you. One of the reasons why I liked this forum is because it was lot more rational (I thought) and less emotion based.

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

Its easy to say this. I would treat this as a rumor AND NOTHING MORE as of now. When panic meter goes up it crosses irrationality levels very quick. Also pardoning Flynn is very different from what we are talking about. Anyways I won't argue with you. One of the reasons why I liked this forum because it was lot more rational (I thought) and less emotion based.

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Of course Zen. These are just opinions ... Everyone is wise to make their own determinations. Take it easy!

I can tell you with certainty that the draconian H1B pipe dream of Stephen Miller has 0% chance of passing.

Practically speaking - business will cease to function in the US.

I work for a fairly large organization in the DMV area. My team has ~14 members, 11 of them are contractors on the H1B. If there was a wide H1B impacting move, overnight, the whole thing will collapse. Our team also does important work (so I would like to think) that feeds into the organization which itself does important work (so I would like to believe). Without the H1B brains powering this rocket, it ain't taking off. It will just crash and burn.

I am not a political partisan. I have trained myself very painfully over the years to objectively analyze data. (On a separate topic, I didn't used to be like this - I was very emotional and only argued things one way). I can see objectively there are certain painful things the administration must do to curtail the abuse of the system, and increase the economic opportunity for the American citizens. The kind of immigration abuses I have seen over the years have been nothing short of scandalous and embarrassing (if their true extent were to come out and completely understood by the American people).

But you know what? I have seen the bad apples in the system overwhelmingly outweighed by the good apples. By and large, people are honest, hardworking and smart. They will appreciate the opportunity, take that opportunity to better themselves, and when enough of them do it in large numbers, that creates the engine of innovation and economic prosperity - this is the pinnacle of the US tradition and the essence of America.

While there are horrible and ugly things about the Democrats (the latest Obama scandal non-withstanding - on a separate topic, I am sure all presidents have spied on their opponents - remains to be seen how much this controversy holds up), it seems like Republicans/Trump are simply incapable or even unwilling to understand what has worked for America. I cannot shake the feeling that there could be deep rooted bias and racism under the hood quite plainly. People will tolerate BLM protests, they will tolerate statues toppling, and they might even tolerate governors telling them to wear masks in public (the horror!!). But one thing that will scare the shit out of all - the prospects on hard right to gain and consolidate any kind of meaningful power. I know several openly Republican Desis and even they will shit their pants if they can even comprehend what this means to their lives.

No, the H1Bs are too entrenched, the numbers are too big, and the prospect of damage to the business at large and localities everywhere (in form of nosediving house prices and lost tax revenue) completely prohibit the Stephen Miller/NumbersUSA pipe dream from becoming a reality.

One can hope.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Of course Zen. These are just opinions ... Everyone is wise to make their own determinations. Take it easy!

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No worries. I think many of us are used to pack up and leave suggestions that are made in Trackit for example. I personally don't take them seriously. Peace!

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

I can tell you with certainty that the draconian H1B pipe dream of Stephen Miller has 0% chance of passing.

Practically speaking - business will cease to function in the US.

I work for a fairly large organization in the DMV area. My team has ~14 members, 11 of them are contractors on the H1B. If there was a wide H1B impacting move, overnight, the whole thing will collapse. Our team also does important work (so I would like to think) that feeds into the organization which itself does important work (so I would like to believe). Without the H1B brains powering this rocket, it ain't taking off. It will just crash and burn.

I am not a political partisan. I have trained myself very painfully over the years to objectively analyze data. (On a separate topic, I didn't used to be like this - I was very emotional and only argued things one way). I can see objectively there are certain painful things the administration must do to curtail the abuse of the system, and increase the economic opportunity for the American citizens. The kind of immigration abuses I have seen over the years have been nothing short of scandalous and embarrassing (if their true extent were to come out and completely understood by the American people).

But you know what? I have seen the bad apples in the system overwhelmingly outweighed by the good apples. By and large, people are honest, hardworking and smart. They will appreciate the opportunity, take that opportunity to better themselves, and when enough of them do it in large numbers, that creates the engine of innovation and economic prosperity - this is the pinnacle of the US tradition and the essence of America.

While there are horrible and ugly things about the Democrats (the latest Obama scandal non-withstanding - on a separate topic, I am sure all presidents have spied on their opponents - remains to be seen how much this controversy holds up), it seems like Republicans/Trump are simply incapable or even unwilling to understand what has worked for America. I cannot shake the feeling that there could be deep rooted bias and racism under the hood quite plainly. People will tolerate BLM protests, they will tolerate statues toppling, and they might even tolerate governors telling them to wear masks in public (the horror!!). But one thing that will scare the shit out of all - the prospects on hard right to gain and consolidate any kind of meaningful power. I know several openly Republican Desis and even they will shit their pants if they can even comprehend what this means to their lives.

No, the H1Bs are too entrenched, the numbers are too big, and the prospect of damage to the business at large and localities everywhere (in form of nosediving house prices and lost tax revenue) completely prohibit the Stephen Miller/NumbersUSA pipe dream from becoming a reality.

One can hope.

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Agree that! We are 120+ days from the election and being purely rational here it takes longer than that to do rule-making. Another important tactical point to not forget. Separately, if polls are any close to the semblance of truth there is no chance for the hard right to consolidate their powers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

No worries. I think many of us are used to pack up and leave suggestions that are made in Trackit for example. I personally don't take them seriously. Peace!

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Seriously? That's what you read in my post?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Seriously? That's what you read in my post?

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Oops...My tone is lost in my text I guess. I was literally typin that wid a chcuckle. Not at all buddy. I know you have so much empathy (and now more emotion) perhaps :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

I can tell you with certainty that the draconian H1B pipe dream of Stephen Miller has 0% chance of passing.

Practically speaking - business will cease to function in the US.

I work for a fairly large organization in the DMV area. My team has ~14 members, 11 of them are contractors on the H1B. If there was a wide H1B impacting move, overnight, the whole thing will collapse. Our team also does important work (so I would like to think) that feeds into the organization which itself does important work (so I would like to believe). Without the H1B brains powering this rocket, it ain't taking off. It will just crash and burn.

I am not a political partisan. I have trained myself very painfully over the years to objectively analyze data. (On a separate topic, I didn't used to be like this - I was very emotional and only argued things one way). I can see objectively there are certain painful things the administration must do to curtail the abuse of the system, and increase the economic opportunity for the American citizens. The kind of immigration abuses I have seen over the years have been nothing short of scandalous and embarrassing (if their true extent were to come out and completely understood by the American people).

But you know what? I have seen the bad apples in the system overwhelmingly outweighed by the good apples. By and large, people are honest, hardworking and smart. They will appreciate the opportunity, take that opportunity to better themselves, and when enough of them do it in large numbers, that creates the engine of innovation and economic prosperity - this is the pinnacle of the US tradition and the essence of America.

While there are horrible and ugly things about the Democrats (the latest Obama scandal non-withstanding - on a separate topic, I am sure all presidents have spied on their opponents - remains to be seen how much this controversy holds up), it seems like Republicans/Trump are simply incapable or even unwilling to understand what has worked for America. I cannot shake the feeling that there could be deep rooted bias and racism under the hood quite plainly. People will tolerate BLM protests, they will tolerate statues toppling, and they might even tolerate governors telling them to wear masks in public (the horror!!). But one thing that will scare the shit out of all - the prospects on hard right to gain and consolidate any kind of meaningful power. I know several openly Republican Desis and even they will shit their pants if they can even comprehend what this means to their lives.

No, the H1Bs are too entrenched, the numbers are too big, and the prospect of damage to the business at large and localities everywhere (in form of nosediving house prices and lost tax revenue) completely prohibit the Stephen Miller/NumbersUSA pipe dream from becoming a reality.

One can hope.

---

Extremely well written Sport. I am more or less in the same camp as you.

However, my faith in Market having positive influence over DC is shaken of late.

Trump administration has taken so many decisions social economic geopolitical that are suicidal irrational. He has waged war against Bezos. Under normal circumstances politicians are incredibly in line with big money because money could easily sway elections. But trump is not subject to that and thus is a dark horse free to do what he wants. Thus they (big money) is all falling in line. There doesn't seem be the invisible hand of the rich and the powerful. Zuckerberg has all but surrendered to the right wing and if you notice, Musk who famously resigned from Trump's economic advisory council, is now twitting "Take the red pill" (a code word for "move to the right"). So I am no longer sure about America's ability in the short term to be discerning about its own strengths. The times are very turbulent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

Oops...My tone is lost in my text I guess. I was literally typin that wid a chcuckle. Not at all buddy. I know you have so much empathy (and now more emotion) perhaps :)

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We are good. :)

I have always believed in power of emotion! Of course its a two edged sword. As you observed, our opinions are one thing. But our goal in this forum is to have a constructive discussion so that immigrants don't feel lost. If they have some clarity and some sense of brotherhood - the forum is on the right path.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

We are good. :)

I have always believed in power of emotion! Of course its a two edged sword. As you observed, our opinions are one thing. But our goal in this forum is to have a constructive discussion so that immigrants don't feel lost. If they have some clarity and some sense of brotherhood - the forum is on the right path.

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Having that peer support through a forum of like minded people is a proven coping mechanism. So I thank you for finding us all such a place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

No worries. I think many of us are used to pack up and leave suggestions that are made in Trackit for example. I personally don't take them seriously. Peace!

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To be fair to Q, he wasn't suggesting packing up. He was simply giving some suggestions on how to be "prepared", and that too when you asked for them in your previous post! And his suggestions are all great!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vedu

To be fair to Q, he wasn't suggesting packing up. He was simply giving some suggestions on how to be "prepared", and that too when you asked for them in your previous post! And his suggestions are all great!

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I think we are squared away now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Sri - in my own family in India - my brother's son is admitted to a top US university and my counsin's son admitted to another top univ -- both for masters. They received no scholarship or assistantship and are going to pay full out of state tuition. I am shocked. I myself obtained an MBA pretty much free back in 2000s! In fact I earned and saved money while doing an MBA.

I guess this actually will have positive impact on India by retaining talent back home. But for the people who are in Limbo - this is very stressful.

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Q - The cream and people highly into academics will come no matter what, as they are chasing their dreams. People with money back home will come too and this block has increased for sure in the last 20 years. And Indians usually don't back down from spending on education.
And about the tuition those days are gone, I doubt kids born here and going to college now or in future can come out without paying anything.

Limbo is what is stressful and that waiting line is increasing for the people in Limbo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

I think we are squared away now.

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We were always squared. :) Besides I am now much older than many of you and a word here and there shouldn't bother me. Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

We were always squared. :) Besides I am now much older than many of you and a word here and there shouldn't bother me. Cheers.

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Cool! Also, many of us are not young either ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Trump administration has taken so many decisions social economic geopolitical that are suicidal irrational. He has waged war against Bezos. Under normal circumstances politicians are incredibly in line with big money because money could easily sway elections. But trump is not subject to that and thus is a dark horse free to do what he wants. Thus they (big money) is all falling in line. There doesn't seem be the invisible hand of the rich and the powerful. Zuckerberg has all but surrendered to the right wing and if you notice, Musk who famously resigned from Trump's economic advisory council, is now twitting "Take the red pill" (a code word for "move to the right"). So I am no longer sure about America's ability in the short term to be discerning about its own strengths. The times are very turbulent.

---

My two cents here. Businesses will look the other way as long as they are not being hurt financially. I honestly feel this is an attempt by the administration to throw everything and see what sticks to the wall so that they can message that to their supporters. DC will never get bigger than Market. Market will go along and bend the knee as long as their financial ecosystem is not disturbed. If the businesses feel financially threatened they will stop giving money to the campaign (This campaign is not grass roots funded and hence it relies heavily on market to raise money). Worse yet the big business may form a super pac and work against DC. Key indications should be JB fund raising numbers off late. All the old timers have probably already bought houses and made plans around a life in US. So while being liquid is a good idea, I do not think it helps the old timers who are neck deep in this. For me personally, I would still want to believe the market will get in the way and worry about the consequences later (maybe that's the defense mechanism kicking in to retain my sanity). Plus 2020 has been such a s**t storm we are all better served being hopeful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vsivarama

My two cents here. Businesses will look the other way as long as they are not being hurt financially. I honestly feel this is an attempt by the administration to throw everything and see what sticks to the wall so that they can message that to their supporters. DC will never get bigger than Market. Market will go along and bend the knee as long as their financial ecosystem is not disturbed. If the businesses feel financially threatened they will stop giving money to the campaign (This campaign is not grass roots funded and hence it relies heavily on market to raise money). Worse yet the big business may form a super pac and work against DC. Key indications should be JB fund raising numbers off late. All the old timers have probably already bought houses and made plans around a life in US. So while being liquid is a good idea, I do not think it helps the old timers who are neck deep in this. For me personally, I would still want to believe the market will get in the way and worry about the consequences later (maybe that's the defense mechanism kicking in to retain my sanity). Plus 2020 has been such a s**t storm we are all better served being hopeful.

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Whether we like it or not, the truth is more prosaic, you don't need a scalpel to understand it. The halcyon days of H1B are over. It may very well be an attempt to remove the pebble under the boulder. "Being prepared" ordeal deserves more attention. If we stick together, we might be able to come up with an impressive roster of technology and US expertise, what can we do with it in India?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vsivarama

My two cents here. Businesses will look the other way as long as they are not being hurt financially. I honestly feel this is an attempt by the administration to throw everything and see what sticks to the wall so that they can message that to their supporters. DC will never get bigger than Market. Market will go along and bend the knee as long as their financial ecosystem is not disturbed. If the businesses feel financially threatened they will stop giving money to the campaign (This campaign is not grass roots funded and hence it relies heavily on market to raise money). Worse yet the big business may form a super pac and work against DC. Key indications should be JB fund raising numbers off late. All the old timers have probably already bought houses and made plans around a life in US. So while being liquid is a good idea, I do not think it helps the old timers who are neck deep in this. For me personally, I would still want to believe the market will get in the way and worry about the consequences later (maybe that's the defense mechanism kicking in to retain my sanity). Plus 2020 has been such a s**t storm we are all better served being hopeful.

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Fully agree! End of the day following the money trail is the best strategy to reason out what’s true and wats a mirage. I do feel deeply for folks who are beyond 2011 PDs. I hope things change and this is the bottom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sportsfan33

I can tell you with certainty that the draconian H1B pipe dream of Stephen Miller has 0% chance of passing.

Practically speaking - business will cease to function in the US.

I work for a fairly large organization in the DMV area. My team has ~14 members, 11 of them are contractors on the H1B. If there was a wide H1B impacting move, overnight, the whole thing will collapse. Our team also does important work (so I would like to think) that feeds into the organization which itself does important work (so I would like to believe). Without the H1B brains powering this rocket, it ain't taking off. It will just crash and burn.

I am not a political partisan. I have trained myself very painfully over the years to objectively analyze data. (On a separate topic, I didn't used to be like this - I was very emotional and only argued things one way). I can see objectively there are certain painful things the administration must do to curtail the abuse of the system, and increase the economic opportunity for the American citizens. The kind of immigration abuses I have seen over the years have been nothing short of scandalous and embarrassing (if their true extent were to come out and completely understood by the American people).

But you know what? I have seen the bad apples in the system overwhelmingly outweighed by the good apples. By and large, people are honest, hardworking and smart. They will appreciate the opportunity, take that opportunity to better themselves, and when enough of them do it in large numbers, that creates the engine of innovation and economic prosperity - this is the pinnacle of the US tradition and the essence of America.

While there are horrible and ugly things about the Democrats (the latest Obama scandal non-withstanding - on a separate topic, I am sure all presidents have spied on their opponents - remains to be seen how much this controversy holds up), it seems like Republicans/Trump are simply incapable or even unwilling to understand what has worked for America. I cannot shake the feeling that there could be deep rooted bias and racism under the hood quite plainly. People will tolerate BLM protests, they will tolerate statues toppling, and they might even tolerate governors telling them to wear masks in public (the horror!!). But one thing that will scare the shit out of all - the prospects on hard right to gain and consolidate any kind of meaningful power. I know several openly Republican Desis and even they will shit their pants if they can even comprehend what this means to their lives.

No, the H1Bs are too entrenched, the numbers are too big, and the prospect of damage to the business at large and localities everywhere (in form of nosediving house prices and lost tax revenue) completely prohibit the Stephen Miller/NumbersUSA pipe dream from becoming a reality.

One can hope.

---

No the chance is not 0 percent.

This set of proposals are well thought out and have been in making for months if not years. They likely know what would stand the scrutiny or not. We may be surprised when the actual rules are proposed.

The longer the unemployment situation lasts, lesser the sympathy for H1Bs regardless of their numbers or entrenchment or support from big business. And of course it is planned as a slow attrition over years so as to allow the businesses to adjust.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

"For others, it is certainly gray area, but as mentioned by the lawyer above, it can be challenged as the previous regulation stipulates that labor cert is valid for 180 days for filing 140 and expires after that IF 140 is not filed by that time. But there is no regulation that states that labor will expire after filing 140 within the 180 day window. This is due to how the statute is interpreted through current regulations. But one caveat is the “at the time of filing and admission” in statute. This is reason for 140 time window from labor. If they change this to 485 filing, it would get murky."

I disagree with you. This is not a grey area.

104(c) clearly states that three year extensions can be granted indefinitely until the “alien’s application for adjustment of status has been processed and a decision made thereon.” For the folks who have an approved I-140, a formal I-485 has not been filed because the priority date is not yet current due to the very same INA's 7% country cap for immigrant visas. Only when the PD gets current the alien will/can legally file for adjustment. Until the AOS is filed it can't be processed and decision cannot be made as a result until all of that happen (filing, processing and approval) h1b extensions should be granted. Also, USCIS as an agency for the past 2 decades set a precedence for that so to retroactively change it will be considered capricious and arbitrary clearly. Also, it will directly strike the heart of do no universal harm doctrine for drafting regulations by courts.

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We are referring to 2 different things. My reference was to validity of labor certification and you seem to be referencing H1 extensions beyond 6 years based on AC 21.

If you look at the statute, the title is One time extension or something like that. The assumption being your GC will get approved within the next 3 years, which is no more the case. The regulation to interpret this basically considered the text and are providing 3 year extensions till 485 is approved. If new regulation is issued to reinterpret to one time extension beyond 6 years of h1b, it still may be fine due to section 106c, where you will get 1 year extensions instead.

But the crux of the issue is both the above are based on having valid 140 based on valid labor certification. So far the interpretation of labor certification validity has been filing 140 within 6 month window of labor certification. If that changes to say 5 years in total or something like that, the underlying labor will have to be refiled if 485 is not filed within the expiry window. Either way, making it retroactive would be difficult, if not impossible and will face lawsuits. Future changes on the other hand may or may not be won in courts, though will probably get challenged as it has been in place for 2 decades.

Regardless, I don’t think they will push everyone out in one go, at least not unless they want to tank the economy. You are taking about at least 350k families with high pay and skilled jobs. Businesses will shift jobs with them to wherever they are going, at least in the short term. And the IP of these people stay with them and so if many end up in India, all it would take is a small percentage of those to band together and start their own companies in India. Given the conversion parity, you can start some significant product companies in India. I think the Forbes article ending is very appropriate where they stated no foreign power who wanted to impact this great country adversely could have come up with a better plan.

Also contrary to the myth propagated by right wing, while there are abuses in the system, there is a dearth of skilled professionals. If you have tried to hire anyone With good skills, you will immediately see the striking low number of applicants and even among those who apply, getting the applicant with good skill is pretty difficult. Many times the hire is usually a compromise to your original vision. One person I know mentioned their company is reworking job requirements to make it more broad so that they can get more applicants.

Regardless with this admin anything goes and so they may not care about the impact. But that does not mean they can get away with everything. Fortunately there are still some checks and balances intact, the judicial system being one of them. Let’s see how these play out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eaglenow

We are referring to 2 different things. My reference was to validity of labor certification and you seem to be referencing H1 extensions beyond 6 years based on AC 21.

If you look at the statute, the title is One time extension or something like that. The assumption being your GC will get approved within the next 3 years, which is no more the case. The regulation to interpret this basically considered the text and are providing 3 year extensions till 485 is approved. If new regulation is issued to reinterpret to one time extension beyond 6 years of h1b, it still may be fine due to section 106c, where you will get 1 year extensions instead.

But the crux of the issue is both the above are based on having valid 140 based on valid labor certification. So far the interpretation of labor certification validity has been filing 140 within 6 month window of labor certification. If that changes to say 5 years in total or something like that, the underlying labor will have to be refiled if 485 is not filed within the expiry window. Either way, making it retroactive would be difficult, if not impossible and will face lawsuits. Future changes on the other hand may or may not be won in courts, though will probably get challenged as it has been in place for 2 decades.

Regardless, I don’t think they will push everyone out in one go, at least not unless they want to tank the economy. You are taking about at least 350k families with high pay and skilled jobs. Businesses will shift jobs with them to wherever they are going, at least in the short term. And the IP of these people stay with them and so if many end up in India, all it would take is a small percentage of those to band together and start their own companies in India. Given the conversion parity, you can start some significant product companies in India. I think the Forbes article ending is very appropriate where they stated no foreign power who wanted to impact this great country adversely could have come up with a better plan.

Also contrary to the myth propagated by right wing, while there are abuses in the system, there is a dearth of skilled professionals. If you have tried to hire anyone With good skills, you will immediately see the striking low number of applicants and even among those who apply, getting the applicant with good skill is pretty difficult. Many times the hire is usually a compromise to your original vision. One person I know mentioned their company is reworking job requirements to make it more broad so that they can get more applicants.

Regardless with this admin anything goes and so they may not care about the impact. But that does not mean they can get away with everything. Fortunately there are still some checks and balances intact, the judicial system being one of them. Let’s see how these play out.

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I was using the 104 and 106 sections to analyze post 6 year extensions in general. It’s obvious that underlying PERM needs to be not revoked if any of the extensions were to continue happen. Also the title of one time extension is extensively analyzed and the legal research paper I shared above Captures that argument extensively. None of this has any chance of happening let alone happening within the next 120 days. The last time I checked there is a presidential election due happening and the incumbent is deeply trailing. So much for media hype and negativity these things are largely moot.

Here is the link again - http://blog.cyrusmehta.com/2018/01/n...lf-deport.html

Also nowhere in INA it says a PERM needs to be re-validated periodically. PERIOD!