Discussion On The Politics of Immigration Reform (Comprehensive Or Otherwise)

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Originally Posted by vedu

We should blame this on the old admin and wait for the next visa bulletin. But don't worry, even if visas are wasted this year, the new admin has plans to recapture all the lost visas at a future date! In fact, even that won't be necessary. They are working on big things for us. Didn't you see that new shiny immigration bill? As people are saying...the country quotas will be gone in 2 years and there will be no backlog in 5 years from now. Do you know what all this is called? It's Fugazi.;)

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The admin to be blamed is the one from 2009. The one in 2017 was an extension of the same little more uglier. I had put another post earlier today, if they are really serious about this, H1 should be treated as immigration visa, after 3 years automatic 140 based on last 2-3 years tax return GC on the date of completion of 6th year of H1 and Citizen application eligibility 2 years from then. 8 years pathway to citizenship for H1, L1, OPT if they are really serious about it.

Otherwise we can continue to attribute blame to the previous administrations, which is the easiest thing to do. Blame the past, ignore the present, destroy the future

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

All these GOP minded backlogged folks who had pinned their hopes on Trump and GOP, I challenge you to go and build support among GOP for country caps removal.

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Q, you see the problem. While you have been consistent on immigrant needs have you ever tried to understand the majority base beyond the impression of them as basket cases.

When you present it as challenge, they are sure to take it as a challenge and will solidly run it to the ground. Just like you have opportunists like Obama in 2007 in Democratic Party, there are enough in Republican side too.

Attempt to get consensus instead of trying to rub it in. I can guarantee that that second method is a sure shot way to failure.

AceMan,

Yes, I read that post and it does make sense to me. And I wasn't picking on you. I just used your post to express my feelings.

In this D's vs R's battle and the resultant status quo, any bad news is actually good news and any good news is actually bad. I said this before also. One doesn't have to be genius to figure that out. Zenzone got his chance at EAD, because the bad news of family visa ban due to COVID was actually a good news for him. And I am not even being insensitive about it. I personally lost my dear ones in this pandemic. But this is the TRUTH!

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Originally Posted by AceMan

Q, you see the problem. While you have been consistent on immigrant needs have you ever tried to understand the majority base beyond the impression of them as basket cases.

When you present it as challenge, they are sure to take it as a challenge and will solidly run it to the ground. Just like you have opportunists like Obama in 2007 in Democratic Party, there are enough in Republican side too.

Attempt to get consensus instead of trying to rub it in. I can guarantee that that second method is a sure shot way to failure.

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When BO was around and the CIR bill came to Senate in 2013, it was Grassley who put the hold on it. In every way of any immi. proposal its the GOP that gets in the way. They are experts at shifting blame and pitting one group of immigrants against others.

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Originally Posted by Zenzone

When BO was around and the CIR bill came to Senate in 2013, it was Grassley who put the hold on it. In every way of any immi. proposal its the GOP that gets in the way. They are experts at shifting blame and pitting one group of immigrants against others.

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Grassley is an octogenarian senior ranking senator well respected on both sides and he blocked it due to some valid concerns. When you try to brand him as opportunistic, I can only say that you are very wrong here. Cruz was an opportunist, Trump was another one was had the free support of all these CNN, NBC. They were celebrating his name calling. The only person who questioned Trump directly was Megyn Kelly from Fox. These news sites wanted to deliver a show instead of reality, you got that for 4 years.

Do not blame GOP for that. Think of Kevin Yoder who supported the immigration needs of legals as his main task was run down not only democrats but his own party voters

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Originally Posted by AceMan

Q, you see the problem. While you have been consistent on immigrant needs have you ever tried to understand the majority base beyond the impression of them as basket cases.

When you present it as challenge, they are sure to take it as a challenge and will solidly run it to the ground. Just like you have opportunists like Obama in 2007 in Democratic Party, there are enough in Republican side too.

Attempt to get consensus instead of trying to rub it in. I can guarantee that that second method is a sure shot way to failure.

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The challenge is to our own people who danced with GOP and attended the rally in houston in the hope that Trump is our guy. I never for once thought so. I have seen this game for far too long. EVERY time there was any talk of any immigration reform, some crazy guy within GOP would always botch it.

We don't need to capitulate, appease GOP nor rub it in. We need to come across polite, confident and firm in our position that country caps are unjust. GOP must understand that Texas is already a majority minority state. So their anti-immigrant stance is no loner sustainable.

In any case appeasement of racist folks is never going to be the answer.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

Grassley .... he blocked it due to some valid concerns.

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Before there was hawley and ted cruz and jeff sessions and michelle bachman and sarah palin there was chuck grassley. The guy is pretty much founder of modern anti immigrant sentiment.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

The challenge is to our own people who danced with GOP and attended the rally in houston in the hope that Trump is our guy. I never for once thought so. I have seen this game for far too long. EVERY time there was any talk of any immigration reform, some crazy guy within GOP would always botch it.

We don't need to capitulate, appease GOP nor rub it in. We need to come across polite, confident and firm in our position that country caps are unjust. GOP must understand that Texas is already a majority minority state. So their anti-immigrant stance is no loner sustainable.

In any case appeasement of racist folks is never going to be the answer.

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Polite, and the model of politeness should be AOC/Omar/Tayeb right? And when you point out their repulsive behavior, you get called anti woman/ anti minority/ anti latino/ anti religious and what not. The very point that you think of negotiation as capitulate/appeasement shows the concern.

Trump was never the GOP, he was propelled to top with the support of the sound bites by CNN/NBC and other left media who wanted to rub the GOP down. He is gone already.

Do not blame GOP when Dems push unworkable deals to the bill.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Before there was hawley and ted cruz and jeff sessions and michelle bachman and sarah palin there was chuck grassley. The guy is pretty much founder of modern anti immigrant sentiment.

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Grassley voted for Reagans 1986 immigration. He changed his stance after seeing the failed promises after that. It is very clearly documented with his actions. And for the ladies you listed above, Dems have equal and counter weight in AOC/Omar/Tayeb.

Did you ignore the fact, these people voted against HR 1044 in the house?

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Originally Posted by AceMan

Polite, and the model of politeness should be AOC/Omar/Tayeb right? And when you point out their repulsive behavior, you get called anti woman/ anti minority/ anti latino/ anti religious and what not. The very point that you think of negotiation as capitulate/appeasement shows the concern.

Trump was never the GOP, he was propelled to top with the support of the sound bites by CNN/NBC and other left media who wanted to rub the GOP down. He is gone already.

Do not blame GOP when Dems push unworkable deals to the bill.

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Ace don't fall for Trump language of calling women "Nasty" when they are strong. AOC / Omar / Tayeb are strong women. I 100% approve of the way they conduct themselves. But anyway we were talking about "us" demanding things from GOP politely but firmly. As our right not as some doleout.

I agree about Trump not being a republican ever. I hope GOP goes back to its conservative libertarian roots.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Ace don't fall for Trump language of calling women "Nasty" when they are strong. AOC / Omar / Tayeb are strong women. I 100% approve of the way they conduct themselves. But anyway we were talking about "us" demanding things from GOP politely but firmly. As our right not as some doleout.

I agree about Trump not being a republican ever. I hope GOP goes back to its conservative libertarian roots.

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Why was Sarah Palin/ Michelle Backmann not given the same respect? I am not talking Trump's language, I am talking the points made by level headed Republican supporters. The media's intent to show them as some dumb bimbo's is what I am talking about.

Nikky Haley is a strong woman from my view. Firm and stood for what I believe is right. Mike Pence stood for the constitution. GOP is like an amalgamation of Libertarian, conservatives, southern Bapists, and lot of Indian origin people lately. So branding them as Neo-Nazi's, clan followers, red necks is not really an attempt to make a peaceful gesture.

And the attempt of Pelosi to impeach Trump when he is already left the scene is just deplorable.

Ace - I think you need to think all these things over.

Backman and Palin were not known for any positions or solutions. That's just the hard truth. They started the crazy tilt of GOP. Nikki Haley is certainly a very capable intelligent woman. I don't quite approve of how she said the elections were stolen. That was pathetic but I guess everyone deserves one pass in life. So that's her. As per Pelosi - she wouldn't be doing her duty if she didn't impeach trump. What he committed is a crime against state and he should not just be impeached and convicted but jailed for the same. Anyway - I think this is getting unnecessarily too political.

I would just say - give biden some time and do your part in participating wherever advocacy is being done in a sensible manner. Or do it in your own capacity. EB-I folks will prevail and country caps will be gone in 2 years.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

Why was Sarah Palin/ Michelle Backmann not given the same respect? I am not talking Trump's language, I am talking the points made by level headed Republican supporters. The media's intent to show them as some dumb bimbo's is what I am talking about.

Nikky Haley is a strong woman from my view. Firm and stood for what I believe is right. Mike Pence stood for the constitution. GOP is like an amalgamation of Libertarian, conservatives, southern Bapists, and lot of Indian origin people lately. So branding them as Neo-Nazi's, clan followers, red necks is not really an attempt to make a peaceful gesture.

And the attempt of Pelosi to impeach Trump when he is already left the scene is just deplorable.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Ace - I think you need to think all these things over.

I would just say - give biden some time and do your part in participating wherever advocacy is being done in a sensible manner. Or do it in your own capacity. EB-I folks will prevail and country caps will be gone in 2 years.

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I am confident that Biden would be able to normalize some resentment that has been around for the entire 2010s. Going back in history, Bill Clinton also had lot of difficulty with Newt Gingrich during mid 90s. As far as Pelosi is concerned on the topic, people just walked into the capitol and the exaggerated points like capitol under siege is not a selling point.

As far as advocacy and donations are concerned, let the young boys from 2010?s drive it. They appear more efficient than 2000?s like us. I wanted the GC quota itself to be taken out, like what Durbin wanted instead of just the country quota removal. If there is a pathway for citizenship in 8 years for DACA, the same pathway should be offered for an H1/L1/OPT student too. GC in 5th or 6th year of being in the country with citizenship option in 2 or 3 years.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

I wanted the GC quota itself to be taken out, like what Durbin wanted instead of just the country quota removal. If there is a pathway for citizenship in 8 years for DACA, the same pathway should be offered for an H1/L1/OPT student too. GC in 5th or 6th year of being in the country with citizenship option in 2 or 3 years.

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Bill Gates has similar solution and I totally agree. Companies should not look at H1 as cheap labor - if they want H1 then they should be able to hire without quota but then commit to GC in a timebound manner. Surprisingly that will protect American workers in a much better manner than current system.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Bill Gates has similar solution and I totally agree. Companies should not look at H1 as cheap labor - if they want H1 then they should be able to hire without quota but then commit to GC in a timebound manner. Surprisingly that will protect American workers in a much better manner than current system.

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How are American workers protected? Dont forget that supprot DJT got was because of frustration of middle class who is not able to maintain their lifestyle compared to their parents. Technology is replacing most if not all middle class jobs and companies are outsourcing those to consulting firms who bring in unrestricted foreign cheap labor. Let's agree that for each Pichai and Nadela, 500 Amirpeth trained H1bs have entered USA and now their Bcom/BSc/MLT h4-ead spouses are running into IT jobs after few weeks of online coaching and few years of fake resume while american John/Janes in 50s are losing jobs and collecting unemployment.

In my last 10-12 years, i have seen so many americans losing jobs in my company, most of thsoe mainframe programmers or business users could have been easily trained into new technology / ERP roles if govt forced IT companies to do that. Instead for sale DC politicians allowed staffing companeis to bring in young cheal labor without any restrictions. And i dont see any change or any effort to fix that in Biden plan.

And i dont want to even start the menace of fake resumes on the basis of which these desis got the jobs. If people need to go to jail for faking resumes for college admissions, they need to empty entire prison system to make space for these fake resumes professionals. And to be honest, i have never seen any effort by government to protect americans impacted by this scam.

Just to add - i am not against any immigration reform. I want people waiting for years in gc queue to get gc asap, i also want 11 Million undocumented to get some sort of legalization.

I just dont see any effort to protect Americans in future. How will Biden ensure new undocumented immigrants wont flood the borders? How will he ensure that they were in USA before 1 Jan 2021? Some of republicans are asking right questions on that.

Same with people who say free flow of product goes hand in hand with free flow of labor. When Apple goes to India for manufacturing, indian govt forces them to source 75% of material locally. China forces american companies not to do business directly but enter into joint venture with chinese companies where chinese firms have majority stake. Why can't US govt force IT staffing/consulitng companies to hire 50% of staff locally? Anybody who says that will impact american competitiveness is doing so because their income depends on cheap labor, that is it.

My fear is if these issues are not resolved, some point in time, someone like DJT will be able to divert the frustration and anger of American middle class/lower middle class whose american dreams have vanished against a particular section of society.

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Originally Posted by alpha0

My fear is if these issues are not resolved, some point in time, someone like DJT will be able to divert the frustration and anger of American middle class/lower middle class whose american dreams have vanished against a particular section of society.

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This is a complex topic, but the answer actually is very simple. The same people who are frustrated that companies do not retrain them are for unchecked capitalism and libertarianism. Well when you want the good of unchecked capitalism you have to bear the bad that comes with it. There has to be a balance between capitalism and social welfare policies. Anything unchecked will only serve as a wrecking ball to the society as a whole.

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Originally Posted by alpha0

How are American workers protected? Dont forget that supprot DJT got was because of frustration of middle class who is not able to maintain their lifestyle compared to their parents. Technology is replacing most if not all middle class jobs and companies are outsourcing those to consulting firms who bring in unrestricted foreign cheap labor. Let's agree that for each Pichai and Nadela, 500 Amirpeth trained H1bs have entered USA and now their Bcom/BSc/MLT h4-ead spouses are running into IT jobs after few weeks of online coaching and few years of fake resume while american John/Janes in 50s are losing jobs and collecting unemployment.

In my last 10-12 years, i have seen so many americans losing jobs in my company, most of thsoe mainframe programmers or business users could have been easily trained into new technology / ERP roles if govt forced IT companies to do that. Instead for sale DC politicians allowed staffing companeis to bring in young cheal labor without any restrictions. And i dont see any change or any effort to fix that in Biden plan.

And i dont want to even start the menace of fake resumes on the basis of which these desis got the jobs. If people need to go to jail for faking resumes for college admissions, they need to empty entire prison system to make space for these fake resumes professionals. And to be honest, i have never seen any effort by government to protect americans impacted by this scam.

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Alpha - I must say every single point you raise is very important and legitimate. I don't really have answers to these complex problems. My 2 cents are that American system needs to increase emphasis on eqaulity and legislation, regulations and tax policy needs to reflect that. Doing away with estate taxes or dividend taxes, removing glass steagall have done more lasting damage to American middle class than a few hundred thousand H1 and EAD jobs. H1 and EAD are a distraction. The real problem is that America needs to go back to its roots of what really made it great viz. all the reforms that Teddy and FD Roosevelt instituted that built a solid middle class.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Alpha - I must say every single point you raise is very important and legitimate. I don't really have answers to these complex problems. My 2 cents are that American system needs to increase emphasis on eqaulity and legislation, regulations and tax policy needs to reflect that. Doing away with estate taxes or dividend taxes, removing glass steagall have done more lasting damage to American middle class than a few hundred thousand H1 and EAD jobs. H1 and EAD are a distraction. The real problem is that America needs to go back to its roots of what really made it great viz. all the reforms that Teddy and FD Roosevelt instituted that built a solid middle class.

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I agree taxing income from wealth same as income from work may help some of the wealth gap created in last few decades (for example wealth of bottom 90% reduced from 40% to 30% in last 30 years where as top 1% got most of that increase). But bottom 90% never had enough wealth to sustain their lifestyles even before Reagan years.

Issue is shrinking of middle class jobs in USA. First they moved almost all manufactuing jobs to China. Then last two decades saw service jobs (mainly back office) getting offshored to cheap locations. And then technology is eliminating many repetitive sort of jobs. Even in technology, onsite/offshore ratios of 90/10 have become 10/90 in last 20 years. And on top of that h1b+h4+l1 are taking most of these remaining onsite jobs.

With all that, couple of millions of ICT jobs going to h1bs+h4+l1 do create a major impact for American middle class. I agree many of us got benefited from this treand but i strongly feel that average americans hardly got any benefit from this pseudo capitalism. Only top 1% benefited from that alonigwith few millions of desis (and immigrants from other countries) who got into first world lifestyle at the cost of american middle class.

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Originally Posted by alpha0

Issue is shrinking of middle class jobs in USA. First they moved almost all manufactuing jobs to China. Then last two decades saw service jobs (mainly back office) getting offshored to cheap locations. And then technology is eliminating many repetitive sort of jobs. Even in technology, onsite/offshore ratios of 90/10 have become 10/90 in last 20 years. And on top of that h1b+h4+l1 are taking most of these remaining onsite jobs.

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Here is the main issue. As much as we would like to believe that H1 + H4 + L1 folks brought the American native workforce to it's knees, the truth is far from it. EB based GC's are 14% of the total GCs given out in a year. So thinking that minority of immigrants getting GC's each year are eating into the thriving middle class is incredulous. There is a lot of automation going on even in the tech sector. Those who have been in the workforce long enough know first hand how any specialized jobs in Tech sector got eliminated. I know for a fact that I will need to reinvent myself and will not have a viable tech sector job in 10-15 years because of the automation, and this automation will affect both the H1B's + H4s + L1s equally as it effects the native citizens of this country. A big part of the reason America made it to the top was because of it's focus on leading the world in innovation and thus creating millions of jobs as a result. Providing cost effective service to other countries innovative products was never it's MO. I truly believe in my heart that the pendulum will swing the other way from this crony capitalism model in the near future.

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Originally Posted by alpha0

I agree taxing income from wealth same as income from work may help some of the wealth gap created in last few decades (for example wealth of bottom 90% reduced from 40% to 30% in last 30 years where as top 1% got most of that increase). But bottom 90% never had enough wealth to sustain their lifestyles even before Reagan years.

Issue is shrinking of middle class jobs in USA. First they moved almost all manufactuing jobs to China. Then last two decades saw service jobs (mainly back office) getting offshored to cheap locations. And then technology is eliminating many repetitive sort of jobs. Even in technology, onsite/offshore ratios of 90/10 have become 10/90 in last 20 years. And on top of that h1b+h4+l1 are taking most of these remaining onsite jobs.

With all that, couple of millions of ICT jobs going to h1bs+h4+l1 do create a major impact for American middle class. I agree many of us got benefited from this treand but i strongly feel that average americans hardly got any benefit from this pseudo capitalism. Only top 1% benefited from that alonigwith few millions of desis (and immigrants from other countries) who got into first world lifestyle at the cost of american middle class.

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I agree with your tone. The numbers may be debatable indeed this is true that American middle class has shrunk.

The Chinese manufacturing revolution swindled so many jobs away but it affected blue collar people and hence there never was a hue and cry over it.

The H1B Indians threatened mostly white collar workers and in many many instances Indians have occupied the plum positions in corporate ladder. That has really rattled otherwise liberal and open minded confident white upper middle class. That's why you see the backlash.

I still believe that the real issue is not displacement or replacement but rather government's failure to reign in corporate greed and allowing the society to transition smoothly to new future as globalization takes hold. I think guaranteed wage could be a good solution. The economy already is at a stage where we can maintain this lifestyle with half the workforce. So that idea makes a whole lot of sense to me.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

I agree with your tone. The numbers may be debatable indeed this is true that American middle class has shrunk.

The Chinese manufacturing revolution swindled so many jobs away but it affected blue collar people and hence there never was a hue and cry over it.

The H1B Indians threatened mostly white collar workers and in many many instances Indians have occupied the plum positions in corporate ladder. That has really rattled otherwise liberal and open minded confident white upper middle class. That's why you see the backlash.

I still believe that the real issue is not displacement or replacement but rather government's failure to reign in corporate greed and allowing the society to transition smoothly to new future as globalization takes hold. I think guaranteed wage could be a good solution. The economy already is at a stage where we can maintain this lifestyle with half the workforce. So that idea makes a whole lot of sense to me.

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This is government by the rich, for the rich. No matter who is in power, i dont see any meaninful change for middle class.

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Originally Posted by alpha0

This is government by the rich, for the rich. No matter who is in power, i dont see any meaninful change for middle class.

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Sometimes it certainly feels that way. But just to keep things in perspective we are in better shape than anytime in human history and than any other place in the world. Scandanavia and socialist europe might seem better but I have spent some time there and I prefer US :)

IV has officially gone full bonkers. It's ok to be emotional about a cause but asking people to do something unlawful, no matter that no one is going to listen to their rants, is just plain dumb. There are no country limits on H1B as per law and it will remain so until it changes, so wishing for that so that green card issues are sorted out is just arse backward.

https://mobile.twitter.com/immivoice...40600304373763

Until discriminatory per-county limits on EB Green Cards are lifted, the Biden administration needs to STOP bringing in more new Indian immigrants on H-1B, otherwise more immigrants will be exploited by their employers and discriminated by the system.

This is height of stupidity. This comes straight out of the playbook of republican party - particularly Trumpsters who don't want Desi H1Bs or any H1Bs for that matter.

Mindboggling.

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Originally Posted by Turbulent_Dragonfly

IV has officially gone full bonkers. It's ok to be emotional about a cause but asking people to do something unlawful, no matter that no one is going to listen to their rants, is just plain dumb. There are no country limits on H1B as per law and it will remain so until it changes, so wishing for that so that green card issues are sorted out is just arse backward.

https://mobile.twitter.com/immivoice...40600304373763

Until discriminatory per-county limits on EB Green Cards are lifted, the Biden administration needs to STOP bringing in more new Indian immigrants on H-1B, otherwise more immigrants will be exploited by their employers and discriminated by the system.

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