Indian Politics

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

ACE - like many of you I have been a witness of immigration saga since early 2000s. What you provide are talking points from GOP side. They are not facts and can easily be disproven (all of them). I just don't have enough time to convince every single person I come across.

Generally speaking here is the immigration picture:
1. Dems have always favored immigration (all kinds). But obviously family one is 7 times bigger (including immediate relatives). So that is their priority.
2. Reps resistance to immigration has transformed from an economic POV to racist POV. They oppose illegals and legals alike. Trump has hijacked the economic issue and turned it into a racist issue.
3. EB immigration has horribly worsened due to lack of numbers but luckily now the size of backlog is so large that the problem has hit the conscious of many many American lawmakers as well as general public
4. Dems have always wanted more and more and more immigration. It is the party of the immigrants and unfortunately GOP has become party of the southern whites, northern disgruntled working whites, and uppity immigrants/collaborators from conflict ridden countries e.g. (South Vietnames, Cuban Collaborators). The third piece is interesting and that is where Indians too figure. Most Indian NRIs that are modi supporters are pleased with Trump's anti muslim rhetoric and are mixing their right wing views in India with American politics and are hurting their own interests.

So Ace - that's the immigration picture in nutshell. Dems are the better party for immigration. GOP has become absolutely racist. NRI's should not mix Indian right wing politics with American politics. It is not in their interest.

There is ample material online from 2005 / 2007 era and Obama and democratic positions on immigration. So one can educate themselves. It is just not productive for me to dig up all that material and argue about it. I urge you to spend some time and if it changes your mind, great. If it doesn't, lets agree to disagree.

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Our disagreements are purely on points with absolute mutual respect for each other in person. I have to clearly indicate my position is on the conservative side. The Republican Party represented my views since 2010.

Let you not fall into the trap of media outlets, who wants to brand entire spectrum of republicans as racists. It was they who created the Trump Frankenstein, who could never grow beyond the reality show host level. Back in India we had the TINA factor. Almost all the moderates who have voted Trump are still expected to vote Trump.

And lot of Indian origin people moving away from Democratic Party can be clearly attributed to the Keith Ellison, who literally abused Indian Hindu Leaders who were always aiding democrats, and his vendetta against an Indian leader over religious violence which he had very specific views. Where as Trump was always respectful of Indians in general.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

And lot of Indian origin people moving away from Democratic Party can be clearly attributed to the Keith Ellison, who literally abused Indian Hindu Leaders who were always aiding democrats, and his vendetta against an Indian leader over religious violence which he had very specific views.

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I think we all know which Hindu leader you are talking about and I think that leader deserved far worse than denial of a visa because he has committed genocide. Unfortunately India's Brahmnical system (judiciary, administration, and political class) has protected the whole Hindu Nationalist gundas since 1947. Why we even let go Gandhi's killer masterminds viz. Savarkar and Golvalkar.

I was a staunch hindu nationalist until I came to US and realized that a successful country is not built on cultural or religious identity but rule of law, equal opportunity, and freedom. Trump is just as much phony as much all those Bhondu (fake) leaders from India because his idea of America is white America. Hindu Nationalists are just gleeful because he bashes muslims. But I think those two are birds of same feathers.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

I think we all know which Hindu leader you are talking about and I think that leader deserved far worse than denial of a visa because he has committed genocide. Unfortunately India's Brahmnical system (judiciary, administration, and political class) has protected the whole Hindu Nationalist gundas since 1947. Why we even let go Gandhi's killer masterminds viz. Savarkar and Golvalkar.

I was a staunch hindu nationalist until I came to US and realized that a successful country is not built on cultural or religious identity but rule of law, equal opportunity, and freedom. Trump is just as much phony as much all those Bhondu (fake) leaders from India because his idea of America is white America. Hindu Nationalists are just gleeful because he bashes muslims. But I think those two are birds of same feathers.

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I was from the left side of the spectrum during my college days and mostly a congress supporter during Rajiv Gandhi and Narasimha Rao times. I was in Bangalore during S M Krishna's time, and in general always leaning on Congress. I have been out of India since 2002 and have no ground knowledge of how the Hindu Nationalism has taken its grip on the current Indian society. I can see very highly educated class mates, family members totally transformed into something which I cannot comprehend.

It is interesting that our travels took the opposite paths from India to US. You from right to left, and me from left to right.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

I think we all know which Hindu leader you are talking about and I think that leader deserved far worse than denial of a visa because he has committed genocide. Unfortunately India's Brahmnical system (judiciary, administration, and political class) has protected the whole Hindu Nationalist gundas since 1947. Why we even let go Gandhi's killer masterminds viz. Savarkar and Golvalkar.

I was a staunch hindu nationalist until I came to US and realized that a successful country is not built on cultural or religious identity but rule of law, equal opportunity, and freedom. Trump is just as much phony as much all those Bhondu (fake) leaders from India because his idea of America is white America. Hindu Nationalists are just gleeful because he bashes muslims. But I think those two are birds of same feathers.

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Well, we also know that the Supreme Court has given a clean chit to the leader we are talking about that is unless you do feel the Supreme Court has always been partial in giving the verdict even when the secular party of India was in power. The ground level realities have always been different. To put it bluntly, sectarian violence has always been happening and will continue to happen. Blame it on history, partition, politicians or education. This is something that will not go away and this is a byproduct of partition that India will have to live with.

Now, if you look at 1969, 1985 Gujarat riots or 1989 Bhagalpur riots or for that any other..you will notice that the CMs during the times did not belong to the right wing party. Why is that this leader is vilified all the time? Is it because the leftist liberal media want to portray him as such? Appeasement of minorities should not come at the expense of majority.

We all know that Godhra train burning is what started the riots and I do understand that 2 wrongs do not make a right. We have to respect the mandate of the people and that is how democracy works. I feel Uniform Civil code is the need of the hour. Do you think that is going to be possible in a diverse country like India where states are given a lot more power perhaps to keep the country united?

P.S: I am a minority as per constitution of India and NOT to be classified as a "bhakt".

Hi NJ - I thought I will respond a bit later so that I can better formulate my thoughts on this topic.

My view is that ....

#1 - Justice: Entire Indian government apparatus is Brahmin dominated and it reflects in our governance and justice (or lack thereof). You can't expect a system to be fair when 3-5% of the population occupies virtually all positions of power. As Obama said so eloquently our institutions must look like the people they represent. That is so not true in India. That's our #1 problem.

#2 - The sectarian violence is purely a British legacy. After 1857 the British actively cultivated extremists. The first known riots happened in 1890s in Mumbai. Savarakar was freed from Andaman in 1923(?), paid money, and immediately upon release he started speaking Hindutva and national identity based on religion. He met with Hedgewar who founded RSS as a military style organization in 1925. Whether we speak of Hindu Mahasabha or Congress - both had the same issue - they did not truly represent people. Congress was covertly communal and Hindu Mahasabha was overtly communal but both were cultivated by the British using upper castes and elites. Muslims felt threatened and were a passive receiver of Pakistan. I do not think they ever wanted a separate country. I hold congress and Hindu Mahasabha more responsible for partition. After British left, Congress did use Pakistan as a punching bag to stay in Power in India and at the same time appease Muslims. But that appeasement only hurt Muslims because Muslims who are 12% of population are not even represented 2% in government, judiciary or administrative posts. Not just Muslims, all other castes too are under represented. If you are under represented, it reflects in your economic status and thus Muslims, dalits, OBCs and the agricultural class have all been marginalized. That hardly is "Muslim appeasement". And even if it is - that hasn't benefited Muslims. Muslims by and large have been just as much patriotic as any other group of people in India. The sectarian violence is artificial and is manufactured. I used to be a Hindu nationalist and in my judgement India has worsened after Hindutva's rise since 1989 ayodhya issue.

#3 Way forward - As you say Uniform civil code is important. India's institutions must operate without fear and favor to any religion, caste, gender, or region. That is possible if they look like the people they govern. Diversity is a strength. Freedom and diversity can co-exist as long as we embrace uniform law, justice and opportunity. Center in India is corrupt and has a stranglehold over India's progress. India must decentralize and empower states and states will flourish.

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Originally Posted by NJMavarick

Well, we also know that the Supreme Court has given a clean chit to the leader we are talking about that is unless you do feel the Supreme Court has always been partial in giving the verdict even when the secular party of India was in power. The ground level realities have always been different. To put it bluntly, sectarian violence has always been happening and will continue to happen. Blame it on history, partition, politicians or education. This is something that will not go away and this is a byproduct of partition that India will have to live with.

Now, if you look at 1969, 1985 Gujarat riots or 1989 Bhagalpur riots or for that any other..you will notice that the CMs during the times did not belong to the right wing party. Why is that this leader is vilified all the time? Is it because the leftist liberal media want to portray him as such? Appeasement of minorities should not come at the expense of majority.

We all know that Godhra train burning is what started the riots and I do understand that 2 wrongs do not make a right. We have to respect the mandate of the people and that is how democracy works. I feel Uniform Civil code is the need of the hour. Do you think that is going to be possible in a diverse country like India where states are given a lot more power perhaps to keep the country united?

P.S: I am a minority as per constitution of India and NOT to be classified as a "bhakt".

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Hi NJ - I thought I will respond a bit later so that I can better formulate my thoughts on this topic.

My view is that ....

#1 - Justice: Entire Indian government apparatus is Brahmin dominated and it reflects in our governance and justice (or lack thereof). You can't expect a system to be fair when 3-5% of the population occupies virtually all positions of power. As Obama said so eloquently our institutions must look like the people they represent. That is so not true in India. That's our #1 problem.

#2 - The sectarian violence is purely a British legacy. After 1857 the British actively cultivated extremists. The first known riots happened in 1890s in Mumbai. Savarakar was freed from Andaman in 1923(?), paid money, and immediately upon release he started speaking Hindutva and national identity based on religion. He met with Hedgewar who founded RSS as a military style organization in 1925. Whether we speak of Hindu Mahasabha or Congress - both had the same issue - they did not truly represent people. Congress was covertly communal and Hindu Mahasabha was overtly communal but both were cultivated by the British using upper castes and elites. Muslims felt threatened and were a passive receiver of Pakistan. I do not think they ever wanted a separate country. I hold congress and Hindu Mahasabha more responsible for partition. After British left, Congress did use Pakistan as a punching bag to stay in Power in India and at the same time appease Muslims. But that appeasement only hurt Muslims because Muslims who are 12% of population are not even represented 2% in government, judiciary or administrative posts. Not just Muslims, all other castes too are under represented. If you are under represented, it reflects in your economic status and thus Muslims, dalits, OBCs and the agricultural class have all been marginalized. That hardly is "Muslim appeasement". And even if it is - that hasn't benefited Muslims. Muslims by and large have been just as much patriotic as any other group of people in India. The sectarian violence is artificial and is manufactured. I used to be a Hindu nationalist and in my judgement India has worsened after Hindutva's rise since 1989 ayodhya issue.

#3 Way forward - As you say Uniform civil code is important. India's institutions must operate without fear and favor to any religion, caste, gender, or region. That is possible if they look like the people they govern. Diversity is a strength. Freedom and diversity can co-exist as long as we embrace uniform law, justice and opportunity. Center in India is corrupt and has a stranglehold over India's progress. India must decentralize and empower states and states will flourish.

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You did put forth some interesting points:

#1 - You are right in saying that the Indian judiciary is mainly dominated by the Brahmins but then IMO we cannot have reservations in the judiciary,can we? I somewhat agree that there absolutely needs to be diversity and maybe, the way judges are appointed to the courts needs to change in India provided we indeed have plethora of good judges belonging to the other caste / creed.... We are close to being aligned on this one.

#2 - I do not agree that sectarian violence is a British legacy! On the contrary it is a byproduct of the violent history of the sub continent led by Islamic Invaders and later the Europeans which lead to destruction of numerous places of worship, knowledge gained through centuries and marginalization of the majority. 1890 Mumbai Riots were preceded by a number of other riots only lost in the annals of history. Since you mentioned about RSS and Mahasabha, it was a direct result of forming of All India Muslim League and the Minto-Morley Reforms. Now, RSS has its own share of controversies but moving to protect your own interest especially when you see the other group doing so is justified. What opinion would you have about All India Muslim League forming in 1906 much before RSS came into existence?

Muslims were never a passive receiver but most if not all rallied behind the Muslim League who wanted to carve out a separate country and perhaps rightly so as they too were worried about being marginalized in post independence era. The downside to however was that those who did not support the Muslim League stayed behind and the rest is history...I completely agree that the minority appeasement policies did more harm than good and it is because of Congress that Muslims have not progressed. They just used them as vote banks. I would never question the patriotism of any person living in the country let alone wonder about what caste / religion they belong. It was Abdul Hamid who got the PVC. However, I certainly do NOT feel RSS is the villain over here..you will always have fringe elements on every side!

#3 - I also think casteism and religious bias in India is a huge problem and to be fair both the minority and the majority are to be blamed for this. This further re-enforces the notion that Uniform civil code is the need of the hour. However, unfortunately that is perceived as a right wing agenda! Why? Some food for thought....

One last point is that states in India are empowered and that is part of the problem. How else would you explain 100% literacy in Kerela as compared to the other states. Bihar and UP have been one of the most economically backward and I certainly do not blame the center for it. Bengal has its own fair share of controversies! There is not much progress in that state either. Why? Is it because States have too much of power in formulating the policies at the State level?

At the end of day, I still feel India has done quite well since independence given the diversity, population and challenges!

NJ - thanks for a thoughtful response.

Yes - I do think India has done well considering our social ills. I also think India would have been at least a semi-developed country if we had re-engineered everything that was British to truly make Indian an independent country of the people by the people for the people. Even today we can do miracles if we re-engineer our polity to enable freedom for our people.

Our states are not at all free IMHO. e.g. in Maharashtra a perfectly good project Lavasa was run into ruins by the central environment ministry. I never understood what business center has in determining environment issues in MH. States can progress when they have control and responsibility over their finances and other matters. I am not sure I understand your point about Kerala vs Bengal.

I have come to believe that India will be better served via non-discrimination laws rather than reservations. Reservations have failed us. Because they do not apply to private sector where there is huge amount of discrimination imho. It cuts along caste religion as well as region. And that has held us back. Judiciary is an interesting place and I believe they have too much protection and too little accountability. We need to start electing district judges just like they do it in USA.

I will read more about muslim league's formation. But even if it is 1906, that is well after 1857 and formation of Arya Samaj. The latter was communal and was supported by the British imho. India saw significant rise in communal riots wherever Arya Samaj grew. If you follow American system - you will notice that they do not tolerate religious fundamentalism of any sort. India unfortunately hasn't had that kind of polity because the british created and rewarded fundamentalist. Not to say muslims were not fundamentalists. But because they were a ruling class - they had more to lose by being fundamentalists. On the other hand upper caste Hindus - particularly Brahmins - were the beneficiaries of the British game plan - and thus they are more to blame for the partition.

Regarding uniform civil code - as I said both congress and bjp are communal. Anybody who opposes UCC is dumb IMHO. Even muslims won't care about UCC. The only reason it is an issue is because political parties have made it an issue.

The reason I quote history is because as GB Shaw said - history rhymes. History should be studied not to seek vengeance but to avoid mistakes. Despite all mistakes India has good things going on. Its youth is more open confident and innovative. They are breaking down various barriers. So we don't have to be overly pessimistic. But I do think India riding the tiger of hindutva is quite risky for this tiger will one day eat the rider.

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Originally Posted by NJMavarick

You did put forth some interesting points:

#1 - You are right in saying that the Indian judiciary is mainly dominated by the Brahmins but then IMO we cannot have reservations in the judiciary,can we? I somewhat agree that there absolutely needs to be diversity and maybe, the way judges are appointed to the courts needs to change in India provided we indeed have plethora of good judges belonging to the other caste / creed.... We are close to being aligned on this one.

#2 - I do not agree that sectarian violence is a British legacy! On the contrary it is a byproduct of the violent history of the sub continent led by Islamic Invaders and later the Europeans which lead to destruction of numerous places of worship, knowledge gained through centuries and marginalization of the majority. 1890 Mumbai Riots were preceded by a number of other riots only lost in the annals of history. Since you mentioned about RSS and Mahasabha, it was a direct result of forming of All India Muslim League and the Minto-Morley Reforms. Now, RSS has its own share of controversies but moving to protect your own interest especially when you see the other group doing so is justified. What opinion would you have about All India Muslim League forming in 1906 much before RSS came into existence?

Muslims were never a passive receiver but most if not all rallied behind the Muslim League who wanted to carve out a separate country and perhaps rightly so as they too were worried about being marginalized in post independence era. The downside to however was that those who did not support the Muslim League stayed behind and the rest is history...I completely agree that the minority appeasement policies did more harm than good and it is because of Congress that Muslims have not progressed. They just used them as vote banks. I would never question the patriotism of any person living in the country let alone wonder about what caste / religion they belong. It was Abdul Hamid who got the PVC. However, I certainly do NOT feel RSS is the villain over here..you will always have fringe elements on every side!

#3 - I also think casteism and religious bias in India is a huge problem and to be fair both the minority and the majority are to be blamed for this. This further re-enforces the notion that Uniform civil code is the need of the hour. However, unfortunately that is perceived as a right wing agenda! Why? Some food for thought....

One last point is that states in India are empowered and that is part of the problem. How else would you explain 100% literacy in Kerela as compared to the other states. Bihar and UP have been one of the most economically backward and I certainly do not blame the center for it. Bengal has its own fair share of controversies! There is not much progress in that state either. Why? Is it because States have too much of power in formulating the policies at the State level?

At the end of day, I still feel India has done quite well since independence given the diversity, population and challenges!

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A beautiful compassionate speech by Rahul Gandhi. I think he found his inner voice today. If he stays on message, mark my words, he will be India's next PM.

I am not particularly fond of old congress party. Nor I am particularly interested in or care who rules. But I am deeply interested in the idea of India as a nation is pluralistic, democratic, where all people thrive. In that sense I found this speech absolutely spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhB0JGdeWnI

He was spot-on for most of his long speech. For some time now, I have started to think that he is one of the more genuine leaders who understand and address critical issues head-on. He has been pretty accurate a few times but gets little credit. It will, however, take some more time before he becomes a better politician due to a lot of propaganda directed against him.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

A beautiful compassionate speech by Rahul Gandhi. I think he found his inner voice today. If he stays on message, mark my words, he will be India's next PM.

I am not particularly fond of old congress party. Nor I am particularly interested in or care who rules. But I am deeply interested in the idea of India as a nation is pluralistic, democratic, where all people thrive. In that sense I found this speech absolutely spot on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhB0JGdeWnI

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Coming from a Congress supporting family, I am now the only one among my relatives who still subscribes to Congress plurality. It is the same reason, I was always siding with Republicans here, instead of Democrats who always prefer Pakistan over India. The visa denial for Modi (Indian CM) during Obama admin was a diplomatic misstep and this pushed a lot of neutral/congress supporters to Modi camp. That propelled BJP from 180-200 seat party to 300+ party seats since 2014 elections.

I agree the speech is beautiful and hope RG continue to stay true to his words, handle efficiently the power hungry team members/ allies who does everything to undermine the plurality of India which helps Modi and his team. Interesting times in India, need to see if congress can capitalize on it, or it will be Modi juggernaut in 2 years time.

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Originally Posted by Waiting4GC

I have started to think that he is one of the more genuine leaders ...

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Couldn't agree more. He is genuine. May be goofy but genuine.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

Coming from a Congress supporting family, I am now the only one among my relatives who still subscribes to Congress plurality.

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Same here. My family and extended family used to be all congress. I converted them all to Hindutva in the 90s and 2000s (went to Ayodhya twice). And now I am trying to redeem my reckless support of Hindutva - which now I consider poison. A few of them are coming back to the plural world. But I sincerely regret my stupidity.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

need to see if congress can capitalize on it, or it will be Modi juggernaut in 2 years time.

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I just care about the idea of plurality, freedom, justice, democracy and free markets. Party doesn't matter - although BJP has kind of disqualified itself in my mind. The only pragmatic guy in BJP Pramod Mahajan was killed, then others were killed who were relatively not as progressive or pragmatic or dynamic but still they at least were not on the crazy side - people like Munde Parrikar Swaraj are now gone. I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist and do think there is some hidden hand behind BJP's success and demise of relatively sane people and promotion of crazies.

Long time ago, I had a hostel mate from Kerala. He was a Kerala Christian who studied in Dubai till 12th. He was very bitter about Indian right wing. He once said a very libertarian thing about how every state in India needs to decide whether they should be independent, autonomous etc. Rahul Gandhi comes across as a person who is similar to him. He is bitter that he is not ruling India. He also realizes that he can't rule India without winning Hindi heartland. He has now decided that the only way to rule again is via a coalition.

So he has started talking divisions in India. Keeps raising how Delhi can't rule TN (pumping up Anti-Hindi sentiments in TN). Says how Kings from Gujarat can't rule Sikhs in Punjab (trying to create generational hatred towards India from Sikh disenchantment with Farm laws). Keeps telling how Americans are not interfering more and chiding the ruling party. He is making a conscious effort to delegitimize Indian state.

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Originally Posted by rocketfast

Long time ago, I had a hostel mate from Kerala. He was a Kerala Christian who studied in Dubai till 12th. He was very bitter about Indian right wing. He once said a very libertarian thing about how every state in India needs to decide whether they should be independent, autonomous etc. Rahul Gandhi comes across as a person who is similar to him. He is bitter that he is not ruling India. He also realizes that he can't rule India without winning Hindi heartland. He has now decided that the only way to rule again is via a coalition.

So he has started talking divisions in India. Keeps raising how Delhi can't rule TN (pumping up Anti-Hindi sentiments in TN). Says how Kings from Gujarat can't rule Sikhs in Punjab (trying to create generational hatred towards India from Sikh disenchantment with Farm laws). Keeps telling how Americans are not interfering more and chiding the ruling party. He is making a conscious effort to delegitimize Indian state.

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I do think that RG spoke about those topics you mention with much less finesse if at all.

But his larger point remains valid - that we can not rule people from Delhi. People need to rule themselves.

I used be a heavy critic of those Sikhs who wanted Khalistan. But no more after I learnt how in the western world Ireland, Gibraltar, and Quebec and Scottland all voted not to secede!!

People wanting to secede is our failure to provide good governance. Imagine that Northern Ireland and Scotland and Gibraltar have more common with Irish/ scottish/ and spanish people and yet they choose English over all others!!

People's well being and freedom is paramount. Blood race color doesn't matter.

So I honestly don't mind anybody seceding. After all even family members secede and go find a new home for themselves. Why not states? Any marriage should not be a forced marriage.

If we do not want people to secede then we need to fix governance and justice and checks and balances.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

I do think that RG spoke about those topics you mention with much less finesse if at all.

But his larger point remains valid - that we can not rule people from Delhi. People need to rule themselves.

I used be a heavy critic of those Sikhs who wanted Khalistan. But no more after I learnt how in the western world Ireland, Gibraltar, and Quebec and Scottland all voted not to secede!!

People wanting to secede is our failure to provide good governance. Imagine that Northern Ireland and Scotland and Gibraltar have more common with Irish/ scottish/ and spanish people and yet they choose English over all others!!

People's well being and freedom is paramount. Blood race color doesn't matter.

So I honestly don't mind anybody seceding. After all even family members secede and go find a new home for themselves. Why not states? Any marriage should not be a forced marriage.

If we do not want people to secede then we need to fix governance and justice and checks and balances.

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What do you think can be a better?

1. United States of India like US where States have lot of autonomy and President/Governor for Country/States
2. Separate countries like European Union with a single currency
3. Stay with the current situation, break down the states to have better governance. UP by itself can be divided to 4 states, Maharashtra 3, Bengal 3, Rajasthan 3, Madhya Pradesh 3, Orissa 2, Gujarat 2, Karnataka 2, Tamil Nadu 2 even Kerala can be 2 states. All states will have 2 Rajyasabha MP's

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Originally Posted by AceMan

What do you think can be a better?

1. United States of India like US where States have lot of autonomy and President/Governor for Country/States
2. Separate countries like European Union with a single currency
3. Stay with the current situation, break down the states to have better governance. UP by itself can be divided to 4 states, Maharashtra 3, Bengal 3, Rajasthan 3, Madhya Pradesh 3, Orissa 2, Gujarat 2, Karnataka 2, Tamil Nadu 2 even Kerala can be 2 states. All states will have 2 Rajyasabha MP's

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I would tend to go with first because it will fix a lot of existing deep flaws that Indian system carries.

Indian system lacks direct representation, it lacks checks and balances, it is bloated (e.g. President and governor are completely useless positions), and it gives way too much power to the administration by way of IAS system.

Even if India doesn't adopt American style democracy, India should abolish IAS system yesterday. India should promote people within department and then after 10 years of service make people eligible for something like American SES (senior executive service).

IAS are worst scumbags in India. Worse than any politician or any crooked industrialist. They pass one exam and then suck the blood of Indian people for all their lives.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

IAS are worst scumbags in India. Worse than any politician or any crooked industrialist. They pass one exam and then suck the blood of India system for all their lives.

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I know lot of IAS officials who went way beyond their call of duty. India has invested in their training and few of them adapting to their bosses whims and fancies does not warrant calling them worst scumbags.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

I know lot of IAS officials who went way beyond their call of duty. India has invested in their training and few of them adapting to their bosses whims and fancies does not warrant calling them worst scumbags.

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Almost none Ace. Even the ones you think are clean and patriotic - behave as if they own the people.

Administration must be subservient to people but it is not. They are a mafia that protect each other. They can't be dismissed except by the president. Why ?

p.s. - sorry I didn't ask - what kind of system you think will serve India well?

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Originally Posted by rocketfast

Long time ago, I had a hostel mate from Kerala. He was a Kerala Christian who studied in Dubai till 12th. He was very bitter about Indian right wing. He once said a very libertarian thing about how every state in India needs to decide whether they should be independent, autonomous etc. Rahul Gandhi comes across as a person who is similar to him. He is bitter that he is not ruling India. He also realizes that he can't rule India without winning Hindi heartland. He has now decided that the only way to rule again is via a coalition.

So he has started talking divisions in India. Keeps raising how Delhi can't rule TN (pumping up Anti-Hindi sentiments in TN). Says how Kings from Gujarat can't rule Sikhs in Punjab (trying to create generational hatred towards India from Sikh disenchantment with Farm laws). Keeps telling how Americans are not interfering more and chiding the ruling party. He is making a conscious effort to delegitimize Indian state.

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I think it is a far-fetched RW version of the analysis of what he said. More of the sensible people understood the point that governing a large and diverse county like India requires discussion, collaboration, and negotiation with all, rather than passing diktats that can do more harm in the long term as we have seen.

Also, remember that INC ruled with the majority of 400+ seats at one time. They now have about 50 seats. So it is better not to predict what will happen in the future. People choose the governments in a democracy, and change is the only constant.

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Originally Posted by Waiting4GC

I think it is a far-fetched RW version of the analysis of what he said. More of the sensible people understood the point that governing a large and diverse county like India requires discussion, collaboration, and negotiation with all, rather than passing diktats that can do more harm in the long term as we have seen.

Also, remember that INC ruled with the majority of 400+ seats at one time. They now have about 50 seats. So it is better not to predict what will happen in the future. People choose the governments in a democracy, and change is the only constant.

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I agree that different events triggers individuals differently. What I find unfathomable may be par for the course for someone else (and vice versa). This is Rahul Gandhi last year asking American diplomats why they are not scolding Indian govt.
https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1378160246103756802

It triggers me and makes me believe that Rahul now has ears to some nasty globalists. There are what I call as "Global wokes" - people that have no special love to India, but consider themselves simply as global citizens. They have no original ideas of their own. They keep trying to map ideas of American left to India. I fear such kind of people have infiltrated Rahul's inner circle.

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Originally Posted by qesehmk

Almost none Ace. Even the ones you think are clean and patriotic - behave as if they own the people.

Administration must be subservient to people but it is not. They are a mafia that protect each other. They can't be dismissed except by the president. Why ?

p.s. - sorry I didn't ask - what kind of system you think will serve India well?

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Q, for that matter even in US law enforcement people get away with almost with any atrocity even with lot of media exposure. People in power in any setup will continue their high handed ways.

For India, back in 50s the states were decided on linguistic basis. I really think we should trust the system we have in India since then instead of going for total revamping. Redraw the state boundaries with river as border instead of language. So avoid the kind of fights Karnataka and Tamil Nadu had in 90s.

I received a recent WhatsApp forward which said india is the only country 1st prime minister blamed for everything 17th Prime minister cannot do.

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Originally Posted by AceMan

I received a recent WhatsApp forward which said india is the only country 1st prime minister blamed for everything 17th Prime minister cannot do.

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That's funny :)

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Originally Posted by AceMan

Q, for that matter even in US law enforcement people get away with almost with any atrocity even with lot of media exposure. People in power in any setup will continue their high handed ways.

For India, back in 50s the states were decided on linguistic basis. I really think we should trust the system we have in India since then instead of going for total revamping. Redraw the state boundaries with river as border instead of language. So avoid the kind of fights Karnataka and Tamil Nadu had in 90s.

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America is not perfect but they are the best in terms of law and order and freedom and justice. That's what makes a successful empire.

India doesn't need to be perfect - just need to copy American recipe. What happened with Judge Loya is a very depressing picture of current state of Indian Law Enforcement.

India doesn't need to dismantle everything but I do think IAS and Judicial system must be dismantled and built in a different way. They have too much power and protections to be useful to common man.

And when we are done even half way through that - then it would be a good idea to dismantle dept of agriculture and a lot of other central ministries, remove archaic laws, reduce a lot of taxes, impose property/wealth tax, remove useless positions like governor ships and even president, implement GST in a way the system uses central infrastructure but half the money automatically goes to state and local. Ability to tax is ability to govern. So empower local bodies to collect property taxes and sales taxes.

For me IAS and judiciary are the most rotten parts of Indian system. The moment they are fixed - we will be 50% on a solid path to become a developed nation.