Was DOS Correct to Move Dates to 01MAY10, Or Should they have Retrogressed Earlier?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

It suited CO to believe USCIS, because it meant he could achieve his aim of collecting a very big Inventory for future years. He could then make USCIS the scapegoats for the disaster, which he effectively has.

CO should be ashamed for not retrogressing EB2-IC a couple of months earlier. Most of the worst aspects could have been avoided and he would still have had an Inventory that would last several years.

Even if demand had turned out slightly lower than expected, he would still have had plenty of time in the remainder of the FY to move the EB2-IC dates forward as required to use up the available visas. People with later PDs would still have had their I-485 filed, but late PD approvals would not have been possible. EB2-WW would not have been retrogressed and FY2012 & FY2013 would not be looking like disaster zones.

---

Spec,

Agree with you 200%. They could have retrogressed couple of months before and i do not understand one thing why USCIS was in such a hurry to approve applications within 1-2 months which was not the case in previous years and moreover this year hay had huge(if not enough) EB1/EB2WW/IC(who applied in Oct/Nov/Dec) backlog. Knowing all this they did this crazy stuff, for a minute i think they did it on purpose just for misleading CO(Politics etc.,).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

CO should be ashamed for not retrogressing EB2-IC a couple of months earlier. Most of the worst aspects could have been avoided and he would still have had an Inventory that would last several years.

---

Are you saying CO shouldn't have moved the dated to May 2010?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smuggymba

Are you saying CO shouldn't have moved the dated to May 2010?

---

smuggymba,

That sounds like a loaded question, if ever I heard one. :)

I'll answer anyway.

He had two choices to do the right thing.

a) Retrogress at the point Cut Off Dates had reached 2 months earlier i.e. 01Jan10

b) He could have moved the dates more quickly to have reached May 2010 2 months earlier. I think everyone, CO included, was very surprised how quickly USCIS started approving new I-485 cases, so that probably was not an option without hindsight.

Not moving to May 2010 would have meant about 6k less in the EB2-IC Inventory.

It probably sounds cold hearted, but if the need to retrogress in a timely fashion meant that Cut Off Date progression ended at 01JAN10, then yes, he should have done it.

Even then, according to Trackitt, about 25% of the PD2008 approvals would still have occurred, but that was due to USCIS approving cases with unparalleled speed. It still would have limited the damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

smuggymba,

That sounds like a loaded question, if ever I heard one. :)

I'll answer anyway.

He had two choices to do the right thing.

a) Retrogress at the point Cut Off Dates had reached 2 months earlier i.e. 01Jan10

b) He could have moved the dates more quickly to have reached May 2010 2 months earlier. I think everyone, CO included, was very surprised how quickly USCIS started approving new I-485 cases, so that probably was not an option without hindsight.

Not moving to May 2010 would have meant about 6k less in the EB2-IC Inventory.

It probably sounds cold hearted, but if the need to retrogress in a timely fashion meant that Cut Off Date progression ended at 01JAN10, then yes, he should have done it.

Even then, according to Trackitt, about 25% of the PD2008 approvals would still have occurred, but that was due to USCIS approving cases with unparalleled speed. It still would have limited the damage.

---

Spec,

I understand that you are quite upset at the way the situation was handled by both the DOS (CO) and the USCIS.

I, for one, am Very Happy that the dates kept advancing the way they did.

I personally think that USCIS should just allow everyone with an approved I140 to file I485 irrespective of the dates being current. DOS will not issue a visa until it can anyways .. why stall a lot of folks from getting their EAD/APs ?

Spec, Anyway we were all aware EB2I going to retro at some point during Feb 2012. CO's decision really helped ton's of folks like me to get AP's/EAD's to visit India as and when needed and can chose their desired job's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

Kanmani,

I've already said many times and long ago that there was a complete disconnect between what CO was saying in those earlier VBs and what we were seeing for applicant demand. Eventually, it became obvious that dates would have to be made Unavailable and that EB2-WW were also at risk.

It seems from the article that CO was banking on 13k from EB1. In post #8035, I made it clear what I think about that premise.

USCIS didn't seem capable of providing information that was remotely up to date. Judging by most information from USCIS, it was anything up to 2 months out of date. It certainly doesn't seem to have been coming from the Lockboxes. If it was, they must still be using the Pony Express.

I think CO is experienced enough, particularly with USCIS, to have known exactly what was going on.

It suited CO to believe USCIS, because it meant he could achieve his aim of collecting a very big Inventory for future years. He could then make USCIS the scapegoats for the disaster, which he effectively has.

CO should be ashamed for not retrogressing EB2-IC a couple of months earlier. Most of the worst aspects could have been avoided and he would still have had an Inventory that would last several years.

Even if demand had turned out slightly lower than expected, he would still have had plenty of time in the remainder of the FY to move the EB2-IC dates forward as required to use up the available visas. People with later PDs would still have had their I-485 filed, but late PD approvals would not have been possible. EB2-WW would not have been retrogressed and FY2012 & FY2013 would not be looking like disaster zones.

One of the differences now is that CO can look in the DOS system and actually see the number of pre-adjudicated cases. That's where he wants to be - completely divorced from any input or reliance on USCIS.

Sorry if I sound angry - it's because I am! The Cut Off Date movement was great and has allowed 10s of thousands to file I-485 who otherwise could not have done so. It would have taken so little to have come out smelling of roses - instead the people affected have been treated with a total lack of respect.

Rant over. Sorry you received both barrels. It feels better. :)

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

smuggymba,

That sounds like a loaded question, if ever I heard one. :)

I'll answer anyway.

He had two choices to do the right thing.

a) Retrogress at the point Cut Off Dates had reached 2 months earlier i.e. 01Jan10

b) He could have moved the dates more quickly to have reached May 2010 2 months earlier. I think everyone, CO included, was very surprised how quickly USCIS started approving new I-485 cases, so that probably was not an option without hindsight.

Not moving to May 2010 would have meant about 6k less in the EB2-IC Inventory.

It probably sounds cold hearted, but if the need to retrogress in a timely fashion meant that Cut Off Date progression ended at 01JAN10, then yes, he should have done it.

Even then, according to Trackitt, about 25% of the PD2008 approvals would still have occurred, but that was due to USCIS approving cases with unparalleled speed. It still would have limited the damage.

---

My PD is March 2010 and because of this advancement, both my wife and I got EAD's and my wife got a job also. We also moved into our brand new house last month.

For my point of view - God Bless CO.

No doubt that when resources are scarce, people want their share first and don't necessarily think about others and that's ok. CO doesn't listen to us or take his decisions based on what immigration forums say - people who get lucky based on his decisions get lucky...some don't.

I have heard quite a few people who blame "us" i.e. the new EAD holders for them not getting GC's. It's life.

EAD/AP is a pretty good thing to have, not sure why people want to trade off others people's EAD/AP's to get their own GC's. To each their own.

Spec - I don't understand why you begrudge CO moving dates. Yes, retrogression was inevitable and some GCs were probably processed out of order which is not ideal, but it doesn't really change the allocation to EB2IC if you look/amortize over a few years.

Sure, it changes people's expectations, but only those people who only look at VB and not the numbers behind them (unlike the people on their thread). Those guys were let down. But the more people that can get EAD/APs, the better. Maybe someone like murali83 won't have gone back if he had one...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pdfeb09

Spec,

I understand that you are quite upset at the way the situation was handled by both the DOS (CO) and the USCIS, and you would rather that the dates stopped advancing early on and that the approvals happened in strict order.

I, for one, am Very Happy that the dates kept advancing the way they did. I would take 10s of thousands of extra EAD/AP s approval over the strict following of the rule any day. I understand that EB2 ROW and some folks from EB2 IC with PDs in 2007 will not agree with this, but they all have their EAD/APs .. think about those who would not have had this provision without the dates advancement. So what if EB2 ROW guys had to wait for a few more months to get their GCs .. there are folks waiting for years without EAD/AP.

I personally think that USCIS should just allow everyone with an approved I140 to file I485 irrespective of the dates being current. DOS will not issue a visa until it can anyways .. why stall a lot of folks from getting their EAD/APs ?

I do not complain about the current situation .. of course, I am one of the beneficiaries .. :)

---

pdfeb09,

I totally understand that viewpoint. It is a difficult balancing act.

90% of people still would have been able to apply for I-485, but some people with 2007 PDs will now wait years extra to be approved.

I am not that upset about the effect on EB2-WW. It is only temporary, but the knock on effect will be felt by EB2-I. EB2-C is relatively immune because they would only have their 2.8k anyway.

My anger is because of the effect on Indian applicants. You may find that hard to believe, but it is true.

On the other hand, I am very happy for those who have been able to apply. I fully understand the benefits of AP, EAD, access to AC21 benefits and the sense of security that having an I-485 filed confers. The benefits to the spouse, in particular are enormous.

In a totally detached way, what happened was wrong. It benefited some people at the expense of others and it is not how the system is supposed to work. It always becomes very difficult when we get down to an individual level. I'm very pleased you were a beneficiary.

The idea of allowing people with approved I-140 to file I-485 is a completely different matter. Even that is not simple, because those undergoing Consular Processing would not be eligible, in the same way they cannot use any AC21 benefits.

I had a much longer reply, but have decided not to post it, since it goes beyond calculations and predictions. The fact is - what happened, happened. All we can do now is work out what the ramifications are.

PS I said I knew it was a loaded original question. I also knew my reply would not be popular.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

90% of people still would have been able to apply for I-485, but some people with 2007 PDs will now wait years extra to be approved.

---

Why? Because some 485s were processed out of order (relative to PD)? If so, then yes, I agree with you. An easy way to fix this would have been to approve all 485s and do the final step of allocating the GC at year end or close to year end. Then you can ensure that the maximum number are issued in order but the tradeoff is that some people will get their GCs a few months later.

I agree with you pdfeb09.
Spec, I would have preferred if CO made the dates current for the 4 months when he was moving it and then retrogressed it. That would have allowed even more people to file for EADs.

There were three things that one can say went wrong due to the way dates were moved -
1. 5-6K EB2-I 2008 PDs got GCs ahead of EB2-I 2007 PDs. I feel bad for the people who missed out, but they still will get their GCs with few months to maximum one year of delay. 1 year avoidable delay is frustrating, i understand and would have been equally frustrated. But the people who have not been able to file for EAD during the move are looking at 3-5 years of wait. So if you say 5K Jan-May 2010 PDs should wait 5 years to get EAD vs 5K 2007 PDs should wait one extra year for the GC, i would prefer the less worse option and say what happened is better than what you propose (which does not allow Jan-May 2010 people to get EADs). There could have been better alternatives to what happened though (internally holding otherwise approved EB2-I applications for just 1-2 months before requesting a visa number could have ensured better FIFO).

2. 5-7K EB2-ROW (2011 or 2012 PDs) visas got allocated to EB2-I, they will get it back in Oct and Nov 2012, the extra wait for them is less than 6 months. Even with some effort I find it hard to start feeling bad.

3. Some EB2-ROW people would not have been able to file I-485 in 3 months due to ROW retrogression. Again it is a 3-month delay. (This is the one which can help EB2-I if CO does quarterly spillover in Q2 2013 (Jan-Mar) :))

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pdfeb09

Spec,

I understand that you are quite upset at the way the situation was handled by both the DOS (CO) and the USCIS.

I, for one, am Very Happy that the dates kept advancing the way they did.

I personally think that USCIS should just allow everyone with an approved I140 to file I485 irrespective of the dates being current. DOS will not issue a visa until it can anyways .. why stall a lot of folks from getting their EAD/APs ?

---

I dont think the problem is so much about opening lines broader and giving EADs to many. It is good that people are able to benefit from EADs.

The problem is giving GCs out of order . Just the processing times between TSC and NSC are sufficient to create a disparity/dysfunction on when and who gets GC first.

As it is there are limitations on number of visas and per country limits and everything else , on top of that when you have system inefficiencies such as what happened in the past months , where PD really was worthless in attaining GC.

One of the folks from a law firm was saying that it might take over 2+ years or even 3 years to just clear out EB2 2007 if the EB3 to Eb2 porting remains higher and EB1 usage remains high.

Anyways , both arguments are cogent , but ofcourse one thing we can all agree is people with EB2 2007 PDs that were good and did not receive approvals will feel that extended pain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

pdfeb09,

I totally understand that viewpoint. It is a difficult balancing act.

90% of people still would have been able to apply for I-485, but some people with 2007 PDs will now wait years extra to be approved.

I am not that upset about the effect on EB2-WW. It is only temporary, but the knock on effect will be felt by EB2-I. EB2-C is relatively immune because they would only have their 2.8k anyway.

My anger is because of the effect on Indian applicants. You may find that hard to believe, but it is true.

On the other hand, I am very happy for those who have been able to apply. I fully understand the benefits of AP, EAD, access to AC21 benefits and the sense of security that having an I-485 filed confers. The benefits to the spouse, in particular are enormous.

In a totally detached way, what happened was wrong. It benefited some people at the expense of others and it is not how the system is supposed to work. It always becomes very difficult when we get down to an individual level. I'm very pleased you were a beneficiary.

The idea of allowing people with approved I-140 to file I-485 is a completely different matter. Even that is not simple, because those undergoing Consular Processing would not be eligible, in the same way they cannot use any AC21 benefits.

I had a much longer reply, but have decided not to post it, since it goes beyond calculations and predictions. The fact is - what happened, happened. All we can do now is work out what the ramifications are.

PS I said I knew it was a loaded original question. I also knew my reply would not be popular.

---

Spec,

Don't get me wrong. I have an enormous respect for you. I also understand completely where you are coming from.

FIFO issue is not related to last year advancement of dates( that was to build inventory). 2007 folks are unlucky to wait for years to get their GC they would have got it by now, if FIFO is working as expected. this will repeat again for 2010 folks.

USCIS needs to concentrate strictly on FIFO. seriously,I think they are using outdated systems,i heard apr'2010 guy got an 485 approval email few days back( how this was possible?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

pdfeb09,

I totally understand that viewpoint. It is a difficult balancing act.

90% of people still would have been able to apply for I-485, but some people with 2007 PDs will now wait years extra to be approved.

I am not that upset about the effect on EB2-WW. It is only temporary, but the knock on effect will be felt by EB2-I. EB2-C is relatively immune because they would only have their 2.8k anyway.

My anger is because of the effect on Indian applicants. You may find that hard to believe, but it is true.

On the other hand, I am very happy for those who have been able to apply. I fully understand the benefits of AP, EAD, access to AC21 benefits and the sense of security that having an I-485 filed confers. The benefits to the spouse, in particular are enormous.

In a totally detached way, what happened was wrong. It benefited some people at the expense of others and it is not how the system is supposed to work. It always becomes very difficult when we get down to an individual level. I'm very pleased you were a beneficiary.

The idea of allowing people with approved I-140 to file I-485 is a completely different matter. Even that is not simple, because those undergoing Consular Processing would not be eligible, in the same way they cannot use any AC21 benefits.

I had a much longer reply, but have decided not to post it, since it goes beyond calculations and predictions. The fact is - what happened, happened. All we can do now is work out what the ramifications are.

PS I said I knew it was a loaded original question. I also knew my reply would not be popular.

---

Spec.

I tend to agree with you. To give GCs out to 08 as against 07 is not right. Then what is the point of having PDs? It should be strictly FIFO so that all can get right picture

But if it continues as it is , then I expect repeat of 2012 atleast to some extent(remember! frog always goes 2 steps ahead first to retrogress later), and dates may move ahead to give chance to some more lucky guys at expense of others.

Now other question(s)


1- If EB3 are upgrading to EB2, then is it assumed that EB3 will move at a faster rate?

2- Or in anyway will benefit EB-WW(For eg. EB3-WW may get current due these (upgrades? )

3 If SOFAD is very high for 2012/2011/2010/2009 and now expected to quite low - I know that you had given detailed explanations previously. Is there any change in logic now?) any chances for some large movement in next March/April?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

pdfeb09,

I totally understand that viewpoint. It is a difficult balancing act.

90% of people still would have been able to apply for I-485, but some people with 2007 PDs will now wait years extra to be approved.

I am not that upset about the effect on EB2-WW. It is only temporary, but the knock on effect will be felt by EB2-I. EB2-C is relatively immune because they would only have their 2.8k anyway.

My anger is because of the effect on Indian applicants. You may find that hard to believe, but it is true.

On the other hand, I am very happy for those who have been able to apply. I fully understand the benefits of AP, EAD, access to AC21 benefits and the sense of security that having an I-485 filed confers. The benefits to the spouse, in particular are enormous.

In a totally detached way, what happened was wrong. It benefited some people at the expense of others and it is not how the system is supposed to work. It always becomes very difficult when we get down to an individual level. I'm very pleased you were a beneficiary.

The idea of allowing people with approved I-140 to file I-485 is a completely different matter. Even that is not simple, because those undergoing Consular Processing would not be eligible, in the same way they cannot use any AC21 benefits.

I had a much longer reply, but have decided not to post it, since it goes beyond calculations and predictions. The fact is - what happened, happened. All we can do now is work out what the ramifications are.

PS I said I knew it was a loaded original question. I also knew my reply would not be popular.

---

Once again I have too say how lucky we are to have a forum where, although we might have very different and strongly held opinions, we can discuss them constructively and above all in a polite manner.

I think it is better to air these issues and frustrations now. They have been boiling under the surface for some time.

I know I feel better for putting them in print and I think we are all mature enough to understand and respect a contrary opinion. It isn't a black and white issue.

I will probably move the thread to the discussion area later today.

I look forward to the 2013 P & C thread.

PS to Q

Time to set up the EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2013 thread. After the October Demand Data and October VB is issued, it will be needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

Once again I have too say how lucky we are to have a forum where, although we might have very different and strongly held opinions, we can discuss them constructively and above all in a polite manner.

I think it is better to air these issues and frustrations now. They have been boiling under the surface for some time.

I know I feel better for putting them in print and I think we are all mature enough to understand and respect a contrary opinion. It isn't a black and white issue.

I will probably move the thread to the discussion area later today.

I look forward to the 2013 P & C thread.

PS to Q

Time to set up the EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2013 thread. After the October Demand Data and October VB is issued, it will be needed.

---

Spec,

Here is another contradictory opinion some one complained here about 2010 guys getting approval. think about EB-3 India guys waiting for 10 to 15 years just to have their PD. So the thing is when it hits people personally it pains! so moral of the story. me me me and mine alone.. just kidding.

2002 folks are unlucky to wait for years to get their GC they would have got it by now, if FIFO is implemented immateiral whichever cateogry one is. this will repeat again forever for all EB3-India folks.

USCIS needs to concentrate strictly on FIFO immaterial of whichever category they are. seriously, They are using outdated systems & having an Insane mind ,i heard apr'2010 guy got an 485 approval email few days back( how this was possible? excatly while 2002 guy is waiting to apply for his I-485???)

There will be a rush of opinions and contrary things now in this thread, all the EB2 guys may jump at this opinion..(now there will be big advise to port!!!) hey this is after all a view point at least accept this have the big mind to accept it.. Don't be like ** guys or USCIS! or The President or whoever else.

Spec and Q , I must say you guys along with others have really given everyone else a platform to let out our emotions and help in a way rationalize these moronic delays. For many years I have been angry about this unfairness and often times I also learned that one should never stop pursuing aspirations and dreams, and Q often talks about this. Although on H1B I always pursued opportunities that I felt strongly about and many cases they turned me down because of visa reqs but eventually I was able to find myself in a better place than I was before because I continued to pursue irrespective of constraints. I bought a house while on H1b and a nice car even while I was out of project years ago. I think life should go on and the show must go on. I guess I'm only trying to repeat what Q says , do not stop pursuing things in life that can bring you happiness , be it a job, house or wife :-) at the cost of
green card. Easier said than done , but just a perspective .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

Once again I have too say how lucky we are to have a forum where, although we might have very different and strongly held opinions, we can discuss them constructively and above all in a polite manner.

I think it is better to air these issues and frustrations now. They have been boiling under the surface for some time.

I know I feel better for putting them in print and I think we are all mature enough to understand and respect a contrary opinion. It isn't a black and white issue.

I will probably move the thread to the discussion area later today.

I look forward to the 2013 P & C thread.

PS to Q

Time to set up the EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2013 thread. After the October Demand Data and October VB is issued, it will be needed.

---

First - it indeed is unjust to approve 2008 folks over 2007.
But second - it is also extremely useful for those who were made current to enjoy the AC21 benefits.

So net net - whether it was a good or bad decision to move EB2IC dates upto May 2010 - depends on which end of the stick you got. It's not easy.. but I will still say - try to take it easy.

Yes indeed over time - I have personally found out that this forum became useful for myself - not just to establish clarity - but also a place to vent and later on connect with some real nice people - some I know personally - some I know only by their handle. But I guess it doesn't matter.

Anyway - but don't waste too much time thinking about past. I am quite confident EB2IC has still a very very decent approval time horizon (4 years IMHO) - I know others think differently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spectator

Once again I have too say how lucky we are to have a forum where, although we might have very different and strongly held opinions, we can discuss them constructively and above all in a polite manner.

I think it is better to air these issues and frustrations now. They have been boiling under the surface for some time.

I know I feel better for putting them in print and I think we are all mature enough to understand and respect a contrary opinion. It isn't a black and white issue.

I will probably move the thread to the discussion area later today.

I look forward to the 2013 P & C thread.

PS to Q

Time to set up the EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2013 thread. After the October Demand Data and October VB is issued, it will be needed.

---

Well said,

Its not fun waiting for GC 6+ years after getting EAD. But at the same time not sure how many people are in this GC - 'No mans land' if you will. I think hundreds - hopefully not thousands. My general understanding is because it usually happens with cases that are not straight forward , stuck in FBI background or name check or just simply missing information required to approve the case. It definitely not fun but there is almost nothing that can be done given the number of cases they approve.

I feel for the people who thought they will get GC in 2012 in few months and made some decisions which have permanent implications like buying a house etc and are still waiting for GC after 2.5 years.