Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[rupen86]

I remember reading somewhere that the only chance for this bill is the lame duck Congress *after* the election.

It is a certainty that this bill will not be taken up in September. However, I still have high hopes for the bill in November. My optimism has 2 reasons:

a) The EB2-I PD - I have firsthand experience how apathetic EB2-I folks were last year and around the beginning of this year when the PD was flying through the hyperspace. Thanks to the Q's forum and the informed opinions of the Gurus, I knew this advance was artificial, but to an average EB2-I immigrant, it was only a matter of time before the dates were to be current. Not so! I think in the next month or 2, there can be more EB2-I folks who will join the effort if ** has any specific action item.

b) ** organized a rally and it seems to be a decent success. They still seem committed. I think they will come out with some action items that strategically aim for the bill's passage in the lame duck Congress. The President can sign while leaving the office.

I searched on Google for ** rally. But can not seem to find any news related to that. Do you have any link for that ?

[GhostWriter]

I never said we do not have flaws. I certainly do not see a large skilled workforce as a flaw. All the other things you mention (Iraq war, Kashmir ??) have nothing to do with what we were discussing.
The usage in EB2-ROW and EB1 has increased leaving less spillover. The I-485 receipts data indicate that to be the case for 2011 and 2012.
As Spec pointed out to you few pages back that change in EB1-C is not that significant.
Post 1 (http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?148-EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2012&p=29720#post29720)
Post 2 (http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?148-EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2012&p=29722#post29722)
For porting, the law firms have been doing a great job in marketing porting to EB3. Who is opposing all the ammendments to fix some of the malpractices for H1, law firms again.

Jumping a red light is illegal, here everyone is playing by the rules. The opinion on rules should be independent of people using those rules. India does not come into the picture except for the 7% country cap.

I will ignore all the other abusive remarks you made. Yelling at your family at home because you can't face the outside world does not seem very courageous to me.

End of discussion from my side, the stage is all yours.



Others should like us for our ability to introspect and correct our flaws and make ourselves better people. I find it sad that you don't possess the courage to see the shortcomings in (y)our fellow countrymen. I guess it is easier to criticize Americans for going to Iraq but much harder to see our own failings - whether it is with a clogged immigration system or opressing religious minorities in Kashmir or in the N. East. Just because someone is an American or an Indian doesn't mean they can't be critical of their own country.

If Indian demographics, education levels, language skills, wages were truly world class as you implicitly claim, India would be a much better place today. You seriously believe that India generates over HALF of the highly skilled qualified workers in the world that want to immigrate to the US and that labor cost arbitrage/skirting the rules is not a component to the mass influx of Indians employed in IT? The wilful blindness is truly staggering. It's one thing to be cogniznant of the situation and still game the system, but to deny the part Indians play in messing it up is ridiculous and cowardly.

As to whether I expect people to keep using the best possible option available, I expect a modicum of honesty in the process. This is why India is a mess - everyone is trying to use the "best option" available to them, which includes everything from employing underage laborers to skipping red lights. The law and propriety be damned. Sab chalta hai.

[immitime]

I never said we do not have flaws. I certainly do not see a large skilled workforce as a flaw. All the other things you mention (Iraq war, Kashmir ??) have nothing to do with what we were discussing.
The usage in EB2-ROW and EB1 has increased leaving less spillover. The I-485 receipts data indicate that to be the case for 2011 and 2012.
As Spec pointed out to you few pages back that change in EB1-C is not that significant.
Post 1 (http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?148-EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2012&p=29720#post29720)
Post 2 (http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?148-EB2-Predictions-(Rather-Calculations)-2012&p=29722#post29722)
For porting, the law firms have been doing a great job in marketing porting to EB3. Who is opposing all the ammendments to fix some of the malpractices for H1, law firms again.

Jumping a red light is illegal, here everyone is playing by the rules. The opinion on rules should be independent of people using those rules. India does not come into the picture except for the 7% country cap.

I will ignore all the other abusive remarks you made. Yelling at your wife/kids/younger siblings at home because you can't face the outside world does not seem very courageous to me.

End of discussion from my side, the stage is all yours.

Your wordings:
Quote:
Jumping a red light is illegal, here everyone is playing by the rules.
UnQuote

Everyone is not playing by the rules, the spillover law interpretation change (2007/2008) with out legislation is unfair and injustice done to lot of EB3 immigrants.

[abcx13]

Modern Western system is based upon "good faith" and giving "benefit of doubt". How is it that Indian companies managed to mess the "good faith" based immigration systems? Case in points: substitute labor abuse, H1B abuse from 2005-2008 and the current abuse in EB1C. I will not get into the porting discussion, but the point made about EB1C is valid. I had a personal story to share here. The gist is that my wife was working as a senior manager last year, and she was offered a job as a manager from one of the maligned IT giants, who promised GC in 1 year. Needless to say, the L1A-EB1C route was available to her. She is not yet 30, had zilch managerial experience to that point, and if we would have taken that route, I would be looking at my GC by next spring.

I am not going to generalize an entire population. There are some amazingly hard working people in India and I have first hand experienced the generosity and the ability of people to help each other in tough times. Having said this, I am only going to note that on a macro scale, India is a mess. And a lot of anger about the practices such as EB1C stems from the deep unfairness about it. There are ways to curtail the almost fraudulent EB1C and manage EB1 demand. Whether those will be implemented or not - another story.

Thanks for the support, sport! I will only add that EB1C fraud is one thing (and it's small as Spec pointed out), but there is fraud in other ways too - L1s requiring 'specialized knowledge', working on B1/B2s, not paying benched H1Bs, people overstaying H1Bs after losing jobs, people finding 'universities' after losing jobs, questionable degrees and educational evals, no pay raises. The list goes on and on. The last one - no pay raises - is not illegal but from the friends I have working as FTEs at Fortune 500 employers, they are typically not held hostage the way a CTS or an Infy does. (I realize there are some cases where Fortune 500s can screw you too but I think it's fair to say the % is lower.) Now I don't have hard numbers to back this up because USCIS/DHS don't make them available but I read that they once found 20% of LCAs were fraudulent. And anecdotally, I have seen enough posts on trackitt and other forums to know that all these issues are more than just exceptions to the rule.

I personally know 5 people (it was 3 until last week) who have gamed H1s, B1/B2s and L1s - all Indians but not just IT. And I don't even know that many IT types, where I suspect the numbers will be higher. Some of the smartest people I know (BS/MS from top 10 univs, working at Google, MS, etc.) have actually gone back because they can't be bothered to deal with the pain-in-the-ass immigration system (in fact, their companies were actually pushing them to file GCs). I read somewhere that the US only gets the mediocre and tired engineers these days, and I think that's true. Someone from MIT or Stanford is increasingly unwilling to wait for 10 years in immigration limbo. In fact, on a PPP basis, they can earn way more in India (this I know first hand), better growth and professional opportunities, etc. I suspect for the bodyshoppers, the quality of life in India is worse than what they can get here, and that's why they are willing to wait for eons.

BTW, a good analogy for all of this is Romney's tax returns. What he did was most likely legal, but do you think most Americans consider it fair even if the system permits it? Same thing here except there might actually be more undetected illegality and fraud here (just the way there is on Wall Street).

[gs1968]

3012 has no budget implication. I do not understand (except spreading negativity) why you are linking both. E2 was passed for Israeli investors. What provisions allotted for that?

I was not being negative at all and I think you misunderstood the post. By clean spending Bill I meant that no other provisions or "riders" were attached to it. I did not imply that this had any spending implications. As the passage of the CR is very important to keep the Govt Funding ongoing,a lot of Congressmen try to attach their own pet projects as they are virtually assured of passage. In this instance,prior to the summer recess I read that the House and Senate leaders had agreed to keep the Bill free of any such additions but the end product does not always end up that way. In this instance they had a CR ready to be circulated on the opening day of the session and after the 48 hour perusal period, it appears like both Chambers are going to bring it to the floor and vote for final passage.
As for the adjournment date I was surprised to see the Sept 21 date on Politico because I felt that they would be in session atleast till the end of the month(which may still be the case). There are Senators like Mrs.McCaskill and Mrs Stabenow who are in very tight races and as the control of the Senate hinges on these races-the Democrats may decide to adjourn earlier to give the embattled Senators more time to campaign.

[pakkpk]

You are right. I misunderstood the post because I do not understand how bill politics work at the hill. Still your post linking resolution to 3012 gives very clear hint of spreading negative sentiment. Anyway sometimes, negative sentiment also motivate people to be active and support 3012 efforts.
I was not being negative at all and I think you misunderstood the post. By clean spending Bill I meant that no other provisions or "riders" were attached to it. I did not imply that this had any spending implications. As the passage of the CR is very important to keep the Govt Funding ongoing,a lot of Congressmen try to attach their own pet projects as they are virtually assured of passage. In this instance,prior to the summer recess I read that the House and Senate leaders had agreed to keep the Bill free of any such additions but the end product does not always end up that way. In this instance they had a CR ready to be circulated on the opening day of the session and after the 48 hour perusal period, it appears like both Chambers are going to bring it to the floor and vote for final passage.
As for the adjournment date I was surprised to see the Sept 21 date on Politico because I felt that they would be in session atleast till the end of the month(which may still be the case). There are Senators like Mrs.McCaskill and Mrs Stabenow who are in very tight races and as the control of the Senate hinges on these races-the Democrats may decide to adjourn earlier to give the embattled Senators more time to campaign.

[bvsamrat]

I absolutely agree with you abc. Where the good faith is required, we lack this and it should be brought out if we want to improve as ourselves. AS we are discussing about HR3012 whhich helps Indians in particular, we should also discuss about the other issues which help us.

Nevertheless think about so caled special skills and talents. Why would any IIT or IIM would wait for 10 years to get GC and loose career. No way! I beleive Grassley's strict H1b is very much required as well as HR3012 which shoud stop all these practices.




Thanks for the support, sport! I will only add that EB1C fraud is one thing (and it's small as Spec pointed out), but there is fraud in other ways too - L1s requiring 'specialized knowledge', working on B1/B2s, not paying benched H1Bs, people overstaying H1Bs after losing jobs, people finding 'universities' after losing jobs, questionable degrees and educational evals, no pay raises. The list goes on and on. The last one - no pay raises - is not illegal but from the friends I have working as FTEs at Fortune 500 employers, they are typically not held hostage the way a CTS or an Infy does. (I realize there are some cases where Fortune 500s can screw you too but I think it's fair to say the % is lower.) Now I don't have hard numbers to back this up because USCIS/DHS don't make them available but I read that they once found 20% of LCAs were fraudulent. And anecdotally, I have seen enough posts on trackitt and other forums to know that all these issues are more than just exceptions to the rule.

I personally know 5 people (it was 3 until last week) who have gamed H1s, B1/B2s and L1s - all Indians but not just IT. And I don't even know that many IT types, where I suspect the numbers will be higher. Some of the smartest people I know (BS/MS from top 10 univs, working at Google, MS, etc.) have actually gone back because they can't be bothered to deal with the pain-in-the-ass immigration system (in fact, their companies were actually pushing them to file GCs). I read somewhere that the US only gets the mediocre and tired engineers these days, and I think that's true. Someone from MIT or Stanford is increasingly unwilling to wait for 10 years in immigration limbo. In fact, on a PPP basis, they can earn way more in India (this I know first hand), better growth and professional opportunities, etc. I suspect for the bodyshoppers, the quality of life in India is worse than what they can get here, and that's why they are willing to wait for eons.

BTW, a good analogy for all of this is Romney's tax returns. What he did was most likely legal, but do you think most Americans consider it fair even if the system permits it? Same thing here except there might actually be more undetected illegality and fraud here (just the way there is on Wall Street).

[abcx13]

AS we are discussing about HR3012 whhich helps Indians in particular, we should also discuss about the other issues which help us.I find when I talk to people from India, they still have this rosy view of the US. A lot of want to migrate but they've almost never done any research into how long it will take for them to get a GC. So I usually advise them not to even bother since it'll take at least five years.

[geterdone]

They are discussing immigration and dream act in senate- you can watch it on C-Span 2.

[Pedro Gonzales]

"As always, we Indians have screwed up the system for ourselves. "

I think you mean to say, "As always some Indians have screwed the system up for other Indians."

I don't believe that there is anything that I did that contributed to my wait except perhaps refusing to marry that girl who was born in Dubai.

[chengisk]

I don't believe that there is anything that I did that contributed to my wait except perhaps refusing to marry that girl who was born in Dubai.

Nice one. Imagine how easily you could have sailed through without even knowing that there is something called demand data or inventory... or Qesehmk.org

[Ramsen]

But when you see it from India even H1b itself is enough. Most of people coming to USA for staying 5 years or so and go back. After coming everything changes after comparing with neigbors and friends. If you like USA still you are better off even without GC. You can stay indefinitely if you file your GC. GC is added advantage and you will have some flexiblity. Otherwise for american dream GC is not mandatory and nice to have. I am sure this is perspective when you see it from India. It changes after you come here


I find when I talk to people from India, they still have this rosy view of the US. A lot of want to migrate but they've almost never done any research into how long it will take for them to get a GC. So I usually advise them not to even bother since it'll take at least five years.

[abcx13]

But when you see it from India even H1b itself is enough. Most of people coming to USA for staying 5 years or so and go back. After coming everything changes after comparing with neigbors and friends. If you like USA still you are better off even without GC. You can stay indefinitely if you file your GC. GC is added advantage and you will have some flexiblity. Otherwise for american dream GC is not mandatory and nice to have. I am sure this is perspective when you see it from India. It changes after you come hereI'm not disagreeing with you and people have told me the same thing, but I find such thinking foolish and naive (not yours, theirs). Staying indefinitely on H1s or EADs is not a sensible option for most people despite what they think at first - especially not in this shitty economy.

GC is definitely mandatory for the American dream of switching jobs freely, starting your own company and striking it rich, sending your kids to college with financial aid, etc. The main reason I didn't start a company in the US was because I couldn't.

[abcx13]

"As always, we Indians have screwed up the system for ourselves. "

I think you mean to say, "As always some Indians have screwed the system up for other Indians."Yes, but considering how much flak I draw anyway...

[gs1968]

To Ramsen
That may be the case but of late I have also seen numerous people with Green Cards move back to India due to professional/personal reasons.Our usual joke is that if you have sons you stay and if you have daughters you leave before it is too late

To chengisk
Did you ever find the brown basmati rice at Asia Imports on Central Avenue?

[chengisk]

To Ramsen
That may be the case but of late I have also seen numerous people with Green Cards move back to India due to professional/personal reasons.Our usual joke is that if you have sons you stay and if you have daughters you leave before it is too late

To chengisk
Did you ever find the brown basmati rice at Asia Imports on Central Avenue?

Thanks, I did. I've been to that store a few time before and never noticed it. But when I went looking specifically for it, there were indeed 4 or 5 brands of the rice. Thanks again.

[Ramsen]

I am seeing 90% of GC holders are staying in a job and only 10% or less are starting own company. For those 90% you need GC only for changing jobs frequently. If economy is bad then going back to India or other country is better option. GC is important but not to the level of fighting in the street(rally etc). Continue to lobby and sending emails are enough and GC can get that much respect. But some people in ** are comparing this to the level of freedom struggle or Aparthid or segregation.


I'm not disagreeing with you and people have told me the same thing, but I find such thinking foolish and naive (not yours, theirs). Staying indefinitely on H1s or EADs is not a sensible option for most people despite what they think at first - especially not in this shitty economy.

GC is definitely mandatory for the American dream of switching jobs freely, starting your own company and striking it rich, sending your kids to college with financial aid, etc. The main reason I didn't start a company in the US was because I couldn't.

[Ramsen]

To Ramsen
That may be the case but of late I have also seen numerous people with Green Cards move back to India due to professional/personal reasons.Our usual joke is that if you have sons you stay and if you have daughters you leave before it is too late



That is the reason many new H1bs are getting a job even though economy is bad. The job situation does not improve. The job opportunities in IT improvaed due to the following factors
1. H1b process restrictions
2. Many GC/Citizens going back to India
3. Reduction of outsourcing due to backlash(This is only small amount)

[qesehmk]

The main reason I didn't start a company in the US was because I couldn't.
ABC you don't need gc to start a business.

[rupen86]

During the drought of any good news, I found one.

http://www.kplu.org/post/microsoft-urges-immigration-reform-fill-high-skilled-jobs

[immitime]

Conway was also quick to note that immigration reform is seriously needed for continued innovation. The US Senate may take up a minor reform bill, The Fairness In High Skilled Immigrants Act, which would end country-specific caps on high skilled visas (H1-B). However, it’s uncertain whether the Senate will be able to pass the bill that had broad support in the House of Representatives before the election recess.

Read & See More using below link:cool:

http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/11/ron-conway-and-sf-mayor-ed-lee-on-crucial-upcoming-tech-policy/

[gs1968]

Another piece of interesting news

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/network-wifi/3381286/republicans-ready-stem-jobs-act/

[rupen86]

Another piece of interesting news

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/network-wifi/3381286/republicans-ready-stem-jobs-act/

This could be combined with 3012 in lame duck. If this is taken up and not 3012, it would be very bizarre that 3012 was held up and later stalled for so called reason that "it does not protect American workers" but at the same time, they allowed to pass STEM. That would also mean that university lobbying is more powerful than technology industry.

[vishnu]

I am indifferent which one passes, because it is sure to alleviate current EB backlog in any case.

[rupen86]

I am indifferent which one passes, because it is sure to alleviate current EB backlog in any case.

I disagree with that. STEM bill is only going to benefit those who take advance degree in STEM fields and in one of the universities selected. I believe it would be applied to the new students and petitioning employer has to petition under STEM quota. It does not reduce current EB2 and EB3 backlog. Even if we say that it would apply to some of the people who are now in EB2 and EB3 category and have graduated from one of the universities selected from STEM, then they would migrate to that category but that number would be pretty small.

[chengisk]

I disagree with that. STEM bill is only going to benefit those who take advance degree in STEM fields and in one of the universities selected. I believe it would be applied to the new students and petitioning employer has to petition under STEM quota. It does not reduce current EB2 and EB3 backlog. Even if we say that it would apply to some of the people who are now in EB2 and EB3 category and have graduated from one of the universities selected from STEM, then they would migrate to that category but that number would be pretty small.

I think what Vishnu is suggesting is that it will remove 55000 applicants from the EB2/3 queue and take them to a different queue with visa numbers provided by the DV visa numbers. Obviously I believe they will carry their PD as well. Why do you think the number would be small? I thought a large number of those in the EB3 queue worked on their masters. Also another question, how do you know the it has to be a petition from the employer?

[abcx13]

I think what Vishnu is suggesting is that it will remove 55000 applicants from the EB2/3 queue and take them to a different queue with visa numbers provided by the DV visa numbers. Obviously I believe they will carry their PD as well.

Yeah - but only if it also applies to old students. If so, such a move would benefit me hugely since I will qualify. And I support the safeguards to avoid diploma mills. In fact, these should be enforced on the H1B and GCs as well. Or they should create a queue with the top 200-300 unis and then put the crappy for-profit ones in a different queue.

Even if this is just wishful thinking, the silver lining I guess is that there is still talk.

[rupen86]

Let's talk about Eb3 for example which is stuck at 2002. Now, if there are people in Eb3 who qualify for this, only they would move to the new category. So, first assumption is that it applies to existing people and not just new people, second assumption is that there are such people in EB3 who qualify for this and third assumption is that they would move to this category. I have doubts on all these assumptions. Even if first two assumptions are true, there is little incentive for them to move to STEM category because of requirement that they would have to work for five years for the petitioning employer. They are better off using EAD. Same applies to EB2

[abcx13]

Let's talk about Eb3 for example which is stuck at 2002. Now, if there are people in Eb3 who qualify for this, only they would move to the new category. So, first assumption is that it applies to existing people and not just new people, second assumption is that there are such people in EB3 who qualify for this and third assumption is that they would move to this category. I have doubts on all these assumptions. Even if first two assumptions are true, there is little incentive for them to move to STEM category because of requirement that they would have to work for five years for the petitioning employer. They are better off using EAD. Same applies to EB2

If those people in EB3 qualified for this, won't they have ported to EB2 by now? And remember the 5 yr experience/education eval in random field does not apply. You actually need a STEM MS.

I would happily move to this from EB2 - I like my employer and don't mind working for them for five years. And actually, it says that they must work with the same emp for five years OR in a STEM occupation.

[vishnu]

Rupen - its 5 years for petitioning employer or in STEM field... I work in investment banking and am not entitled to STEM. But most of the Indian backlog is medicine, core engineering and software programming - all of which are entitled to STEM visas (provided they've received the appropriate masters education). Now even if 25% have got a US Masters (those in EB2 backlog), then they will apply under this new category, which will go a long way to helping reduce Eb2 backlogs and eventually EB2. Also, what is the provision for ununsed visas under the 55k? Spill over to EB1-EB3?? Anyway, I think no point debating this too much as it hasnt even passed one section of congress... Remember HR 3012 passed with overwhelming majority in 2011 and still dangling in senate...

Rupen - your views def instigate good debate...We should discuss further after there have been movement on this bill.

[justvisiting]

HR 3012 does *NOT* reduce backlog either.

HR 3012 simply makes the playing field more fair. In my eyes, the STEM bill does exactly the same.

Because HR 3012 bill has already made much progress, it is better to support it now. However, I will be more enthused about a STEM bill that generates similar headwinds. In my view, STEM bill will be easier to pass than HR 3012 because there will be no opposition from ROW.

The devil will be in the details. There are two bills in the Senate already that add 55K to EB-2, and then give preference to STEM graduates. One of the bills actually said per country caps would not apply to the 55K. By adding them to EB-2, it creates the possiblity of spillover to EB-3.

[bvsamrat]

I always prefer STEM as it is not country dependent, gives prefernce to local advanced degrees in specific field(that's why they get grants) and will promote growth. It will be a win win situation , rather than a bio scientist working on a testing tools in IT(I do not have any complaints for those, but when some one is working in his field of study, he should be given preferece. that's all)


HR 3012 does *NOT* reduce backlog either.

HR 3012 simply makes the playing field more fair. In my eyes, the STEM bill does exactly the same.

Because HR 3012 bill has already made much progress, it is better to support it now. However, I will be more enthused about a STEM bill that generates similar headwinds. In my view, STEM bill will be easier to pass than HR 3012 because there will be no opposition from ROW.

[gs1968]

To sportsfan

There are no other outlets except Computerworld reporting this piece of information and Congressman Smith has announced this Bill many times without actually introducing it.The seeds for this legislation were sown last Fall during Committee Hearings and he was supposed to team up with Mr.Griffin of Arkansas to introduce this last December.Talk came up again in June 2012 just before Congress returned after July 4 that he would introduce it in July according to the widely circulated letter from Russell Harrison of IEEE-USA. It is unclear why he waited for so long till the serious legislative window is almost over before introducing it.It does coincide somehow with the letter circulated by University Heads. It also requires 2/3 majority if it has to be passed under suspension of rules and I am not sure if there is significant Democratic support for abolition of the Diversity visa. Rep.Lofgren introduced a STEM Bill last year HR 2161 which was a more comprehensive Bill than a similar Bill introduced by Rep.Labrador which only concentrated on high skill immigration but failed to win any Democratic co-sponsorship.

The Senate is a different story altogether. The DV visas were known as Schumer visas and he may object to bringing up this Bill altogether if abolition were an option unless he gets significant concessions from the Republicans in return. In contrast to HR 3012 where a formal hold was placed to slow it down-the Democrats can achieve the same results through inaction. Interestingly Senator Cornyn's STAR Act with provisions broadly similar to Rep.Smith's Bill has found no co-sponsors so far from either party. The best thing that can come out of all this is that the ideas have been planted fro increasing high skill immigration and it may all be a matter of time and timing before there is success.


The way things are shaping up Congress may be required to work much harder in the lame Duck session than at any other point during its term!! Tax-cut extensions,fiscal cliff etc etc already on its plate and a bunch of immigration legislation thrown in.

I still cannot understand how addition of 55000 visas a year in a country of 315 million people is so difficult. Why should it require abolition of one category of visas to make room for others.Human capital is precious and to assume that the graduates of American Universities are somehow superior to people like in the story below who have worked to realize their dream is ridiculous

http://www.charleston.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123315146

I was described as negative a few pages ago but I hope negativity is not confused with objectivity. As sportsfan describes-the headwinds are strong and status quo is a very powerful force!!

[rupen86]

If those people in EB3 qualified for this, won't they have ported to EB2 by now? And remember the 5 yr experience/education eval in random field does not apply. You actually need a STEM MS.

I would happily move to this from EB2 - I like my employer and don't mind working for them for five years. And actually, it says that they must work with the same emp for five years OR in a STEM occupation.

Would Eb3 people have not ported to Eb2, not really. I know many people who are in eb3 and have not ported to eb2 since it is the job that should require eb2 criteria. So, if there existing job does not require eb2 criteria, they can not port to eb2 unless they change the job. Changing job which would sponsor eb2 is not that easy in this political and economic environment.

[rupen86]

To sportsfan

There are no other outlets except Computerworld reporting this piece of information and Congressman Smith has announced this Bill many times without actually introducing it.The seeds for this legislation were sown last Fall during Committee Hearings and he was supposed to team up with Mr.Griffin of Arkansas to introduce this last December.Talk came up again in June 2012 just before Congress returned after July 4 that he would introduce it in July according to the widely circulated letter from Russell Harrison of IEEE-USA. It is unclear why he waited for so long till the serious legislative window is almost over before introducing it.It does coincide somehow with the letter circulated by University Heads. It also requires 2/3 majority if it has to be passed under suspension of rules and I am not sure if there is significant Democratic support for abolition of the Diversity visa. Rep.Lofgren introduced a STEM Bill last year HR 2161 which was a more comprehensive Bill than a similar Bill introduced by Rep.Labrador which only concentrated on high skill immigration but failed to win any Democratic co-sponsorship.

The Senate is a different story altogether. The DV visas were known as Schumer visas and he may object to bringing up this Bill altogether if abolition were an option unless he gets significant concessions from the Republicans in return. In contrast to HR 3012 where a formal hold was placed to slow it down-the Democrats can achieve the same results through inaction. Interestingly Senator Cornyn's STAR Act with provisions broadly similar to Rep.Smith's Bill has found no co-sponsors so far from either party. The best thing that can come out of all this is that the ideas have been planted fro increasing high skill immigration and it may all be a matter of time and timing before there is success.


The way things are shaping up Congress may be required to work much harder in the lame Duck session than at any other point during its term!! Tax-cut extensions,fiscal cliff etc etc already on its plate and a bunch of immigration legislation thrown in.

I still cannot understand how addition of 55000 visas a year in a country of 315 million people is so difficult. Why should it require abolition of one category of visas to make room for others.Human capital is precious and to assume that the graduates of American Universities are somehow superior to people like in the story below who have worked to realize their dream is ridiculous

http://www.charleston.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123315146

I was described as negative a few pages ago but I hope negativity is not confused with objectivity. As sportsfan describes-the headwinds are strong and status quo is a very powerful force!!

In the employment world, idea of diversity is weird. One would expect that one would get green card based on the qualification rather than their country of origin. That is the idea behind 3012 and STEM. Why it is difficult to add 55000 more rather than abolishing the category? Because it is politics. They would like to tell that they are not adding more green cards in this economy where unemployment rate is more than 8%. But it is ok to allow DACA which would give 1.7 million people EAD because that would fetch them more votes. If adding 55,000 green cards meant getting more votes, they would have done that.

[rupen86]

I always prefer STEM as it is not country dependent, gives prefernce to local advanced degrees in specific field(that's why they get grants) and will promote growth. It will be a win win situation , rather than a bio scientist working on a testing tools in IT(I do not have any complaints for those, but when some one is working in his field of study, he should be given preferece. that's all)

Comparing HR 3012 with STEM is simply wrong. Both have different purpose. STEM is not going to help existing people in EB categories, if it is applied to new students. Even if it is applied to existing people in EB categories, its effect is not going to be significant as 3012 for the reason mentioned in other post.

[gs1968]

To sportsfan
I think now that it is going to happen next week

http://influencealley.nationaljournal.com/2012/09/house-repubs-to-hold-immigrati.php

To quote from the same article

"Congressional Democrats and the White House are urging companies not to support the bill, arguing they've not had enough time to review it, Republicans say."

Serious intent or mere posturing?

The Hill also has this in their overnight TECH segment

"Lamar Smith expected to drop high-skilled immigration bill: House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith (R-Texas) is expected to drop a high-skilled immigration bill on Friday that would create two new visa categories aimed at keeping foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) fields in the United States, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The bill would create one visa category for recipients of master's degrees in a STEM field and the other category would be dedicated to Ph.D. graduates in a STEM field. The visas created in the bill would be permanent and the two categories will each include a different set of criteria for people to meet. It would also eliminate the diversity visa program, one source said, which might not go over well with some House Democrats.

The bill is expected to be taken up in the House for a vote sometime next week. There will be a meeting with various industry representatives in the GOP whip's office on Friday morning to gauge their support for the bill, according to the two sources. Smith has also floated a compromise proposal for his bill to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. A spokeswoman for Smith did not respond to a request for comment about the forthcoming measure. "

[abcx13]

So BHO had time to review the deferred action EA that he passed overnight, but not something that gives GCs to STEM MS/PhDs that he has supported in the past. Two faced lying SOB.

Sorry I know it's election year politics, but just had to vent.

[rupen86]

To sportsfan
I think now that it is going to happen next week

http://influencealley.nationaljournal.com/2012/09/house-repubs-to-hold-immigrati.php

To quote from the same article

"Congressional Democrats and the White House are urging companies not to support the bill, arguing they've not had enough time to review it, Republicans say."

Serious intent or mere posturing?

The Hill also has this in their overnight TECH segment

"Lamar Smith expected to drop high-skilled immigration bill: House Judiciary Committee Chairman Lamar Smith (R-Texas) is expected to drop a high-skilled immigration bill on Friday that would create two new visa categories aimed at keeping foreign-born graduates in science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) fields in the United States, according to two people familiar with the matter.

The bill would create one visa category for recipients of master's degrees in a STEM field and the other category would be dedicated to Ph.D. graduates in a STEM field. The visas created in the bill would be permanent and the two categories will each include a different set of criteria for people to meet. It would also eliminate the diversity visa program, one source said, which might not go over well with some House Democrats.

The bill is expected to be taken up in the House for a vote sometime next week. There will be a meeting with various industry representatives in the GOP whip's office on Friday morning to gauge their support for the bill, according to the two sources. Smith has also floated a compromise proposal for his bill to the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. A spokeswoman for Smith did not respond to a request for comment about the forthcoming measure. "

It is not 2 categories. From the link, it looked like one category to me. It says "Green cards not used by PhDs would be available to those with STEM master's degrees.". EB1, where PHDs apply, unused numbers from that category would flow here as opposed to EB2. Or I have not interpreted right. But this looks like a tough one to pass seeing democratic and white house opposition.

[abcx13]

I cannot believe I used to support the Democratic party at one time. It looks like they are interested in turning the US into a 3rd world country overflowing with masses of beggars who look at the Government for handouts. I am done with them, and when I become eligible, mine and my wife's (as well as my daughter's) votes will count against them. Enough is enough.

No sensible bill for legal high earning EB applicants can pass under the Democrat's noses. While I can understand the HR3012 stalling, there is just no excuse for STEM. I have read on some blogs on how the US is overlowing with a surplus of STEM graduates. Phooey! My experience says otherwise. Any American citizen who can get a Masters in STEM gets a job. Period. There are an overwhelming number of STEM jobs that require security clearance and citizenship, and all immigrants are automatically disqualified. I went through it back in 2003, and today, the field is *more tilted against us*. There are only a handful of companies (like ours) who hire immigrants and for the past 3 or 4 years, I see an increasing number of extremely talented people handing us their resumes. Lockheeds and Raytheons get US citizens and they are absolutely not dying.

Yes, once you hit your 40s, you cannot continue the same entitled attitude and you may get fired for your lack of performance. How convenient to blame your job loss on the poor H1B shmuck.

Let's cut the bull here. America is not overflowing with *true STEM talent*. There are also ways to make the bill sensible and include PhD granting universities that are funded by NSF and DARPA regularly. That will make this an excellent bill. But the Dems won't allow it because...*gasp*...they haven't reviewed it.

Sad, pathetic and disgusting. I hope they lose both the presidency and the Senate.

Agree with you wholeheartedly. This REALLY sours me on the Democrats.

Also, I love how idiots say that foreigners are driving down STEM wages and this is why Americans don't study science/engineering (and study shit like Russian studies and LGBT studies instead - I'm not saying those aren't important, but you have to look at what's the right proportion). That is such a bullshit argument because if they actually looked at the freakin' statistics, they'd find that engineers still make the most money out of all majors. So it's a bullshit argument. While there are some incredibly hardworking and smart engineers I know (American, European, etc.), STEM wages have nothing to do with whether one studies STEM or not - either people dislike STEM or they think it's too hard. It's never the damn wages.

[rupen86]

I cannot believe I used to support the Democratic party at one time. It looks like they are interested in turning the US into a 3rd world country overflowing with masses of beggars who look at the Government for handouts. I am done with them, and when I become eligible, mine and my wife's (as well as my daughter's) votes will count against them. Enough is enough.

No sensible bill for legal high earning EB applicants can pass under the Democrat's noses. While I can understand the HR3012 stalling, there is just no excuse for STEM. I have read on some blogs on how the US is overlowing with a surplus of STEM graduates. Phooey! My experience says otherwise. Any American citizen who can get a Masters in STEM gets a job. Period. There are an overwhelming number of STEM jobs that require security clearance and citizenship, and all immigrants are automatically disqualified. I went through it back in 2003, and today, the field is *more tilted against us*. There are only a handful of companies (like ours) who hire immigrants and for the past 3 or 4 years, I see an increasing number of extremely talented people handing us their resumes. Lockheeds and Raytheons get US citizens and they are absolutely not dying.

Yes, once you hit your 40s, you cannot continue the same entitled attitude and you may get fired for your lack of performance. How convenient to blame your job loss on the poor H1B shmuck.

Let's cut the bull here. America is not overflowing with *true STEM talent*. There are also ways to make the bill sensible and include PhD granting universities that are funded by NSF and DARPA regularly. That will make this an excellent bill. But the Dems won't allow it because...*gasp*...they haven't reviewed it.

Sad, pathetic and disgusting. I hope they lose both the presidency and the Senate.

I see no logic in passing STEM and not passing 3012. Both rely on changing the rule of giving green card based on country of origin. Whatever bogus reason of "not protecting American worker" applied in case of 3012, should apply here also.

[Pedro Gonzales]

To quote from the same article
"Congressional Democrats and the White House are urging companies not to support the bill, arguing they've not had enough time to review it, Republicans say."



So BHO had time to review the deferred action EA that he passed overnight, but not something that gives GCs to STEM MS/PhDs that he has supported in the past. Two faced lying SOB.

Sorry I know it's election year politics, but just had to vent.

You're enraged based on 3rd degree information. The article quotes a Republican lobbyist claiming that the White House is against the bill. The next sentence in the article goes "The fact of the matter is that politically, Democrats don't want to give a Republican Congress a win on immigration reform, especially when it comes to high-tech," said a GOP tech lobbyist. How he can claim this when HR3012 has been held up by Republicans for 10 months, is beyond me. At the very least that should hurt his credibility sufficiently that you give the WH the benefit of the doubt for now.

[rupen86]

You're enraged based on 3rd degree information. The article quotes a Republican lobbyist claiming that the White House is against the bill. The next sentence in the article goes "The fact of the matter is that politically, Democrats don't want to give a Republican Congress a win on immigration reform, especially when it comes to high-tech," said a GOP tech lobbyist. How he can claim this when HR3012 has been held up by Republicans for 10 months, is beyond me. At the very least that should hurt his credibility sufficiently that you give the WH the benefit of the doubt for now.

Because it is republican sponsored, democrats may not want to pass it fearing republicans would get credit. 3012 was held by Grassley (Republican) but there was always an option for putting motion to proceed if democrats felt it was important bill to pass. I can't imagine that it would have been difficult to get 60 votes when it was passed with overwhelming republican majority in the house. The fact is democrats favor DREAM act which would mostly be for illegals making them legal and then along with that they would include something for legal immigration. Democrats are least interested in passing only legal immigration bill. So, the article is not really wrong in pointing this out.

[Pedro Gonzales]

I cannot believe I used to support the Democratic party at one time. It looks like they are interested in turning the US into a 3rd world country overflowing with masses of beggars who look at the Government for handouts. I am done with them, and when I become eligible, mine and my wife's (as well as my daughter's) votes will count against them. Enough is enough.

No sensible bill for legal high earning EB applicants can pass under the Democrat's noses. While I can understand the HR3012 stalling, there is just no excuse for STEM.


Agree with you wholeheartedly. This REALLY sours me on the Democrats.


Shaant gadhadhari bhim shaant! Let the bill get tabled and voted on in the House and we'll see where the Democrats stand.

My experience has always been that the Democrats are generally for all immigration, legal and illegal, high skilled and low skilled and that the Republicans are generally against all immigration. Now, as to nuances, the Dems focus more on low skilled and illegal immigration based on satisfying the Hispanic vote, but that doesn't prove to me that the Republicans support high skill legal immigration more than the Democrats. Finally, the only verifiable fact on the subject that matters to me is that HR 3012 has been and is continuing to be stalled by Republicans.

[rupen86]

Shaant gadhadhari bhim shaant! Let the bill get tabled and voted on in the House and we'll see where the Democrats stand.

My experience has always been that the Democrats are generally for all immigration, legal and illegal, high skilled and low skilled and that the Republicans are generally against all immigration. Now, as to nuances, the Dems focus more on low skilled and illegal immigration based on satisfying the Hispanic vote, but that doesn't prove to me that the Republicans support high skill legal immigration more than the Democrats. Finally, the only verifiable fact on the subject that matters to me is that HR 3012 has been and is continuing to be stalled by Republicans.

No one knows why the bill is stalled after the hold is released.

[abcx13]

Shaant gadhadhari bhim shaant! Let the bill get tabled and voted on in the House and we'll see where the Democrats stand.

My experience has always been that the Democrats are generally for all immigration, legal and illegal, high skilled and low skilled and that the Republicans are generally against all immigration. Now, as to nuances, the Dems focus more on low skilled and illegal immigration based on satisfying the Hispanic vote, but that doesn't prove to me that the Republicans support high skill legal immigration more than the Democrats. Finally, the only verifiable fact on the subject that matters to me is that HR 3012 has been and is continuing to be stalled by Republicans.

The Republicans may not actually support this if they win the Senate too. I think right now it's just a bone they are throwing to be seen as immigration friendly by the tech/business community, especially now that Obama passed that exec order.

But the Democrats care more about illegal immigration and the stupid Irish visa (sorry, Diversity visa) more than about legal immigration - and that's what is annoying. They could do an exec order for DREAMERs, but they couldn't file for cloture on HR3012? And they're the ones holding up trading the DV for STEM/EB GCs, not the Republicans.

[rupen86]

The Republicans may not actually support this if they win the Senate too. I think right now it's just a bone they are throwing to be seen as immigration friendly by the tech/business community, especially now that Obama passed that exec order.

But the Democrats care more about illegal immigration and the stupid Irish visa (sorry, Diversity visa) more than about legal immigration - and that's what is annoying. They could do an exec order for DREAMERs, but they couldn't file for cloture on HR3012? And they're the ones holding up trading the DV for STEM/EB GCs, not the Republicans.

I agree with this. But this means that we do not have anyone who would further our interest.

[rupen86]

Was AC21 passed in a Dem or Repub Senate? Also, I thought the stalling of HR3012 had to do with the Dems wasted attempts of attaching the Irish-E3 rider to it too. If Grassley alone had been a problem, it would have been easy to deal with him and his amendments should have been out back in March instead of July.

Also, when it comes to immigration in senate, Dick Durbin is democratic leader who sides with Grassley in imposing restrictions on H1 but at the same time, he sides with passing DACA which would give EAD to 1.7 million people without any kind of so called "protection".

[immitime]

The only immigration bill which have bipartisan support in Senate and congress is only H.R.3012. Of course there is possibility only for this Bill. STEM bill is only proposal and it will be stalled in the present Senate.

In one sentence.

H.R.3012 is kept for lame duck session for the time being.(They may take up around Sept 21st also who knows?) The main hindrance now for H.R.3012 in the Senate and in particular Senate Democrats, because of elections, if H.R.3012 becomes law now, in the Presidential Debate Romney can score by showing that Republican bill passed both houses with a bipartisan support! So we may need to wait until November for H.R.3012. Hold on the land is not faraway!

[rupen86]

The only immigration bill which have bipartisan support in Senate and congress is only H.R.3012. Of course there is possibility only for this Bill. STEM bill is only proposal and it will be stalled in the present Senate.

In one sentence.

H.R.3012 is kept for lame duck session for the time being.(They may take up around Sept 21st also who knows?) The main hindrance now for H.R.3012 in the Senate and in particular Senate Democrats, because of elections, if H.R.3012 becomes law now, in the Presidential Debate Romney can score by showing that Republican bill passed both houses with a bipartisan support! So we may need to wait until November for H.R.3012. Hold on the land is not faraway!

What is the need for negotiation to release the hold before election ?

[justvisiting]

The only immigration bill which have bipartisan support in Senate and congress is only H.R.3012. Of course there is possibility only for this Bill. STEM bill is only proposal and it will be stalled in the present Senate.

In one sentence.

H.R.3012 is kept for lame duck session for the time being.(They may take up around Sept 21st also who knows?) The main hindrance now for H.R.3012 in the Senate and in particular Senate Democrats, because of elections, if H.R.3012 becomes law now, in the Presidential Debate Romney can score by showing that Republican bill passed both houses with a bipartisan support! So we may need to wait until November for H.R.3012. Hold on the land is not faraway!

After watching this for a while, my conclusion is HR3012 got stuck in a war between the Irish and I/C. Chuck Schumer will not let 3012 advance without E-3 visas for Ireland.

[rupen86]

After watching this for a while, my conclusion is HR3012 got stuck in a war between the Irish and I/C. Chuck Schumer will not let 3012 advance without E-3 visas for Ireland.

I do not believe that it is the case. While releasing the hold, it was published that Grassley has reached a deal with Schumer of separating Irish E-3 and 3012.

[Pedro Gonzales]

With a foot in both a Republican and Democrat state, I receive canned emails from both Dems (Schumer/Gillbrandt) and GOPers (McCain/Kyle). The email from Schumer squarely blames the Republicans for holding up the bill, whereas the response from Senator Kyl and McCain are more generic about the bill having their support and hopefully becoming law at some point. That leads me to believe the impasse has to do with Republicans, who either have other issues with this bill or just don't like the H1B provisions.

[abcx13]

With a foot in both a Republican and Democrat state, I receive canned emails from both Dems (Schumer/Gillbrandt) and GOPers (McCain/Kyle). The email from Schumer squarely blames the Republicans for holding up the bill, whereas the response from Senator Kyl and McCain are more generic about the bill having their support and hopefully becoming law at some point. That leads me to believe the impasse has to do with Republicans, who either have other issues with this bill or just don't like the H1B provisions.

Or the Democrats don't want to pass it and are blaming the Republicans (election year, remember).

[gs1968]

A Democratic response to the Republican proposal

http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/latest-local/36534-representative-gutierrez-responds-to-reports-of-stem-visa-bill-moving-in-the-house.html

[abcx13]

A Democratic response to the Republican proposal

http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/latest-local/36534-representative-gutierrez-responds-to-reports-of-stem-visa-bill-moving-in-the-house.html

So assuming this passes, which is a big if, we will have TWO immigration bills stuck in the Senate held hostage to one Fhuck Grassley and some other unnamed Senators. All I want for Christmas is for ONE of them to pass.

But with the Republicans in control of the House and Lamar Smith backing this, I think it has good chances

[rupen86]

A Democratic response to the Republican proposal

http://www.enewspf.com/latest-news/latest-local/36534-representative-gutierrez-responds-to-reports-of-stem-visa-bill-moving-in-the-house.html

Which means that there won't be democratic support for the bill as it stands now and republicans won't support increasing overall numbers. This bill right now seems dead. These lines are ridiculous. "Republicans are only willing to increase legal immigration for immigrants they want by eliminating legal immigration for immigrants they don't want. " What does that mean? They are not targeting any group by eliminating diversity visas. The same argument could have been made for Irish E-3 visas which was for very specific group. This is really hypocrisy from democrats.

[gs1968]

To abcx
We keep blaming the Democrats but this Bill is a cynical ploy by the Republicans most likely to placate their donors. There is no Bill introduced on Congressional record as of this moment and it is going to be voted by suspension of rules in the middle of next week with no discussion/debate about impact of this law!! As we all know suspension of rules needs 2/3 majority and a substantial number of Democratic votes to pass and I completely agree with your "big IF"

To rupen86
Irish E-3 is a non-immigrant provision and there are numerous countries with similar provisions. The DV program is a Democratic idea and the Republicans have tried hard over the years to abolish it without much success.

[abcx13]

Which means that there won't be democratic support for the bill as it stands now and republicans won't support increasing overall numbers. This bill right now seems dead. These lines are ridiculous. "Republicans are only willing to increase legal immigration for immigrants they want by eliminating legal immigration for immigrants they don't want. " What does that mean? They are not targeting any group by eliminating diversity visas. The same argument could have been made for Irish E-3 visas which was for very specific group. This is really hypocrisy from democrats.

Of course, by holding STEMs hostage to family and diversity visas, Democrats are also "only willing to increase legal immigration for immigrants they want by eliminating legal immigration for immigrants they don't want." After letting in 1.7m DREAMers, the Democrats can't authorize 50k STEM visas without groveling for more of their Hispanic/Latino/Irish brothers who will most likely suck at the government's teat? I hate to sound like a racist but this is absolutely ridiculous. Despite my rants against bodyshoppers, odds are that those guys are probably more skilled than some random guy from BFE.

The Republicans might still force it through the House to make Dems look bad. "Look - BHO legalized 1.7M illegals but he can't legalize 50K highly skilled US educated immigrants for growing the economy..." That could work. But only problem is that if this gets taken up after the election and the Democrats win, nobody has an incentive to do anything...

[abcx13]

We keep blaming the Democrats but this Bill is a cynical ploy by the Republicans most likely to placate their donors. As we all know suspension of rules needs 2/3 majority and a substantial number of Democratic votes to pass and I completely agree with your "big IF"


I know abt the first part - I made the same point a few posts up I think. But hopefully there will be some sensible Dems who will agree to this? I doubt it but who knows...

[gs1968]

More info on the topic
This from POLITICO
"STEM VISA BILL TALKS CONTINUE -- Negotiations continue in the House on measures that would make more visas available for those with masters and doctorates in STEM fields from qualifying U.S. universities. One proposal would create 50,000 STEM visas and discontinue the 55,000 “diversity visa” lottery available annually to people coming from countries with low rates of immigration. Another would give half of those diversity visas to the family based immigration system, and one half to STEM graduates.

But election season politics may be getting in the way, with Republicans wanting a bill introduced and voted on sooner than Democrats, according to a source. Rep. Lamar Smith has been at the center of these discussions, which also included Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy, and Reps. Luis Gutierrez, Zoe Lofgren, Bob Goodlatte, Howard Berman, and Raul Labrador. A House Judiciary aide confirms Smith is working on a measure that would keep some foreign graduates of U.S. universities with advanced STEM degrees in the U.S., and he hopes to have a draft bill soon."

It also appears like Rep.Zoe Lofgren beat him to the line as she introduced her own Bill on STEM graduates today.I did not have time to go through it carefully but there is some mention about usage of unused visas (? spillover to regular EB categories)

http://www.siliconbeat.com/2012/09/14/rep-lofgren-offers-stem-visa-bill-for-science-and-technology-graduates/

[abcx13]

More info on the topic
This from POLITICO
"STEM VISA BILL TALKS CONTINUE -- Negotiations continue in the House on measures that would make more visas available for those with masters and doctorates in STEM fields from qualifying U.S. universities. One proposal would create 50,000 STEM visas and discontinue the 55,000 “diversity visa” lottery available annually to people coming from countries with low rates of immigration. Another would give half of those diversity visas to the family based immigration system, and one half to STEM graduates.

But election season politics may be getting in the way, with Republicans wanting a bill introduced and voted on sooner than Democrats, according to a source. Rep. Lamar Smith has been at the center of these discussions, which also included Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy, and Reps. Luis Gutierrez, Zoe Lofgren, Bob Goodlatte, Howard Berman, and Raul Labrador. A House Judiciary aide confirms Smith is working on a measure that would keep some foreign graduates of U.S. universities with advanced STEM degrees in the U.S., and he hopes to have a draft bill soon."

It also appears like Rep.Zoe Lofgren beat him to the line as she introduced her own Bill on STEM graduates today.I did not have time to go through it carefully but there is some mention about usage of unused visas (? spillover to regular EB categories)

http://www.siliconbeat.com/2012/09/14/rep-lofgren-offers-stem-visa-bill-for-science-and-technology-graduates/

Interesting. I think neither bill will go anywhere because of how stupid politicians are. I agree with Zoe's bill on this:

Foreign graduates of for-profit schools may not receive STEM visas.The Republican proposal expressly includes degrees from for-profit schools, including degrees earned by mail or over the internet.

Maybe they can compromise though...it seems even if these things pass in the House, they won't pass in the Senate. I don't know why they aren't making noise about passing HR3012.

[immitime]

Interesting. I think neither bill will go anywhere because of how stupid politicians are. I agree with Zoe's bill on this:

Foreign graduates of for-profit schools may not receive STEM visas.The Republican proposal expressly includes degrees from for-profit schools, including degrees earned by mail or over the internet.

Maybe they can compromise though...it seems even if these things pass in the House, they won't pass in the Senate. I don't know why they aren't making noise about passing HR3012.

Because H.R.3012 is long pass this stage and is already on Senate Calender. now how can congress discuss H.R.3012 while it passed with overwhelming majority? H.R.3012s time is for lame duck session, most probably.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Interesting. I think neither bill will go anywhere because of how stupid politicians are. I agree with Zoe's bill on this:

Foreign graduates of for-profit schools may not receive STEM visas.The Republican proposal expressly includes degrees from for-profit schools, including degrees earned by mail or over the internet.

Maybe they can compromise though...it seems even if these things pass in the House, they won't pass in the Senate. I don't know why they aren't making noise about passing HR3012.

I have absolutely no hope from any party. Both have held legal employment based immigration hostage to their own agenda. I agree with immitime, if HR 3012 has any chance, it is in lame duck session otherwise forget about it.

[gs1968]

The Bill has been scheduled for floor vote on Friday
http://majorityleader.gov/Floor/

Interestingly the Bill does not even have a number yet for the schedule. Obviously the text of the Bill has not been made public yet

It has been scheduled for most likely the last working day before the recess.

[abcx13]

The Bill has been scheduled for floor vote on Friday
http://majorityleader.gov/Floor/

Interestingly the Bill does not even have a number yet for the schedule. Obviously the text of the Bill has not been made public yet

It has been scheduled for most likely the last working day before the recess.

I think it can be either Thurs or Fri. Maybe they will compromise with the Democrats in the House (like Lofgren) to come up with a Bill both parties like? And maybe that's why there is no text yet because they are still working on it. If the House can pass it without removing DV, then it really really should pass the Senate because for it to pass without cutting DV would mean both the Republicans and Democrats support it.

A man can dream, right?

[gs1968]

To abcx13

I know you are trying to fill us all with hope but I just cannot see conservative Republicans agreeing to an increase in immigration by 50000/55000 visas 6 weeks before a tough election which is what a compromise would mean. Personally the sheer timing of the Bill implies mere posturing than real intent.

I don't know if this article has been linked before but it makes interesting reading about the dynamics of the Bill

http://beverlyhillsimmigrationlaw.blogspot.com/2012/05/smith-griffin-seek-to-ease-path-for.html

[justvisiting]

Lofgren's bill creates EB-6, gives it 50K new visas, and let's them spillover to EB-1 (and from there to EB-2 and 3). Per-country caps will still apply to EB-6. There is nothing in the bill saying EB-6 is open only to new graduates, so I assume anyone with a STEM degree from a good university can apply.

[rupen86]

The Bill has been scheduled for floor vote on Friday
http://majorityleader.gov/Floor/

Interestingly the Bill does not even have a number yet for the schedule. Obviously the text of the Bill has not been made public yet

It has been scheduled for most likely the last working day before the recess.

This really seems like political posturing by republicans so that it can be claimed that they introduced the bill to give STEM visas. It is a nice talking point. But this bill is not going anywhere. Republicans are not going to accept additional green cards and democrats are not going to eliminate diversity visas. I do not know what possible compromise they can come up with.

[gs1968]

It really is curtains this Friday for the House.No doubt the Senators will also skip town on Friday (or even earlier)

http://www.govexec.com/oversight/2012/09/after-next-week-house-stopping-work-until-election/58122/?oref=river

I found the first comment in response to that story very funny.We have to wait for the lame duck session for anything meaningful to happen.BTW is the House really going to vote on 27 Bills on Tuesday?


PS-Can someone explain how I became Pandit? I feel very intellectual and someone must think that my drivel is actually thought-provoking!

[Ramsen]

Nowadays anti immigrants does not need to work on opposing the bill. Either congress itself will not pass anything. If anything comes closer the divisions in pro immigrants will derail the bill


It really is curtains this Friday for the House.No doubt the Senators will also skip town on Friday (or even earlier)

http://www.govexec.com/oversight/2012/09/after-next-week-house-stopping-work-until-election/58122/?oref=river

I found the first comment in response to that story very funny.We have to wait for the lame duck session for anything meaningful to happen.BTW is the House really going to vote on 27 Bills on Tuesday?


PS-Can someone explain how I became Pandit? I feel very intellectual and someone must think that my drivel is actually thought-provoking!

[gs1968]

Some more information from this morning.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231295/Democrats_produce_rival_STEM_visa_bill

No comment-fellow forum members are free to draw their own conclusions

[chengisk]

Nowadays anti immigrants does not need to work on opposing the bill. Either congress itself will not pass anything. If anything comes closer the divisions in pro immigrants will derail the bill

Well said.
Now days wrt the US congress, anyone pro anything cannot get things done, anyone anti anything do not have to do anything.

[rupen86]

Some more information from this morning.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231295/Democrats_produce_rival_STEM_visa_bill

No comment-fellow forum members are free to draw their own conclusions

I wanted to provide comments regardless. This article makes it clear that the reason two separate bills were introduced was because two parties could not come to agreement. So, this is merely political posturing so that both parties can claim moral high ground of retaining so called "brightest" minds here. If this was not enough, the article says that Grassley is going to have his own bill. So, even if through miracle there was some agreement and bipartisan bill was introduced, it would not make a difference to Grassley and it would meet the same fate like 3012.

[justvisiting]

The Lamar Smith bill's text has been released. It is very similar to the Lofgren bill, but no spillover. However, it allows people who already have a degree and an approved labor cert. to "port" without a new labor cert.

[chengisk]

The Lamar Smith bill's text has been released. It is very similar to the Lofgren bill, but no spillover. However, it allows people who already have a degree and an approved labor cert. to "port" without a new labor cert.

Got a link to it? Please.

[chengisk]

Found it,

http://thehill.com/images/stories/blogs/flooraction/jan2012/smithstem.pdf

[gs1968]

This morning's update to read with your coffee

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/249699-parties-lock-horns-over-legislation-to-boost-high-skilled-immigration

The timing of the Bill's vote on the House Floor will give us a better idea about where this is headed. My feeling is that the Democrats in the House will let it pass and leave the Senate where they control the agenda handle it. If the House Floor votes on it on Thursday it will be received in the Senate on Friday (if Senate is still in session). Then we will know before the recess if this is headed to the Senate Judiciary Committee or going to the Calendar directly. If the vote on this Bill is postponed to Friday due to the backlog from Wednesday in the House (there are greater than 20 bills to be voted on on Wednesday) then the fate of the Bill hangs in suspense till the lame duck session in November. My feeling is that the Republicans in the Senate will object to Committee assignment and ask that it be placed on the calendar directly. I think the WH is against abolishing the DV and this pressure could influence either the adoption or amendment of this Bill

[rupen86]

This morning's update to read with your coffee

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/249699-parties-lock-horns-over-legislation-to-boost-high-skilled-immigration

The timing of the Bill's vote on the House Floor will give us a better idea about where this is headed. My feeling is that the Democrats in the House will let it pass and leave the Senate where they control the agenda handle it. If the House Floor votes on it on Thursday it will be received in the Senate on Friday (if Senate is still in session). Then we will know before the recess if this is headed to the Senate Judiciary Committee or going to the Calendar directly. If the vote on this Bill is postponed to Friday due to the backlog from Wednesday in the House (there are greater than 20 bills to be voted on on Wednesday) then the fate of the Bill hangs in suspense till the lame duck session in November. My feeling is that the Republicans in the Senate will object to Committee assignment and ask that it be placed on the calendar directly. I think the WH is against abolishing the DV and this pressure could influence either the adoption or amendment of this Bill

This article again points the facts that the other article had pointed that both parties could not reach agreement and introducing their own bill. Since Republicans control the house, that is the bill that is going to move forward. Democrats are unlikely to support that given white house and their own objection to end DV program. Even if some democrats end up supporting this bill and it passes house, it is not going anywhere in senate where Grassley, Schumer will be the road block to the bill. The timing of the bill suggests that it is political posturing that they are interested in rather than passing it.

[gs1968]

Another news source

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0916/Should-high-skilled-immigrants-get-special-treatment

[abcx13]

I don't understand how Democrats can hold up a DV for STEM replacement. This is ludicrous. Since replacement is the only option on the table, they should just pass the damn thing. 50k US educated STEM MS >> 50k DV anyday regardless of the bullshit 'diversity' they want to preserve. There is enough diversity in this country and 50k out of ~1M legal immigrants really doesn't move the needle. I really wish this passes in the House and the Republicans lampoon the Democrats over this. And I would imagine XXXXX Grassley would support it too since it gets rid of DV which he has long advocated for. And Lamar Smith has more seniority than Chaffetz so that'll be another positive factor.

[immitime]

There can be millions of reports on STEM bill. Democrats will block that in the Senate.. they do not want DV lottery eliminated.. And the only bill before December have a chance to become law is H.R. 3012. There is no point wasting time talking about STEM.

[gs1968]

From last night on POLITICO-no new information here but mainstream media reporting is scarce on this subject

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81277.html?hp=r5

[pakkpk]

I totally agree with you. Rather than wasting time call your Senators this week in support of H.R. 3012. This bill will pass. Here is the phone number. The U.S. Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121. A switchboard operator will connect you directly with the Senate office you request. Staff will answer the phone, state your name and where you live with zip code. Then state that "I am calling to voice my support for H.R. 3012.I want to request Senator to support and pass H.R. 3012 bill in Senate as soon as possible. Thank you.
There can be millions of reports on STEM bill. Democrats will block that in the Senate.. they do not want DV lottery eliminated.. And the only bill before December have a chance to become law is H.R. 3012. There is no point wasting time talking about STEM.

[rupen86]

Immigration is at least beginning to pop up in the run up to the election.

http://news.yahoo.com/romney-pledge-fix-troubled-u-immigration-system-040835879--business.html

[immitime]

I totally agree with you. Rather than wasting time call your Senators this week in support of H.R. 3012. This bill will pass. Here is the phone number. The U.S. Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121. A switchboard operator will connect you directly with the Senate office you request. Staff will answer the phone, state your name and where you live with zip code. Then state that "I am calling to voice my support for H.R. 3012.I want to request Senator to support and pass H.R. 3012 bill in Senate as soon as possible. Thank you.

I understand your frustration and sarcasm!. Calling the Senators and making sure they support is only 15 %, if just by calling Senators, or sending emails to them, alone a bill passes, then by this time, H.R.3012 would have become law there are other under currents in a legislative process. H.R.3012 is the bill already passed the congress and waiting for the legislation on senate calendar. STEM bill at the same time is still a proposal, not even passed congress!.:o

[immitime]

I completely disagree. We can continue with the efforts on HR 3012, but there is absolutely nothing wrong to push for the STEM bill. STEM bill looks more probable than HR 3012 anyway, because it won't have any opposition from the ROW, and any Senator attempting to block it will have to explain the uncomfortable question of "why let in 55K random people versus preferring 55K US educated STEM masters/PhDs". The US Universities are a stakeholder in the STEM bill and would have a greater influence. The technology sector will also be squarely behind the STEM bill.

I understand that HR 3012 is **'s prime action item and kudos to them for the progress on the bill, but we need to seek what's best for EB-I folks, and the STEM bill is looking promising. If it passes the House, it will be exactly where the HR3012 is at right now.

Sports,

Democrats are against any Legal immigration bills, the moment we say Legal immigration fix, they will connect CIR with that, (because no VOTES! these are all election politics) and they won't sacrifice DV lottery for our Legal immigration, no issues with STEM bill as such, but only thing I pointed out is, it may not go anywhere.

[pakkpk]

I understand your frustration and sarcasm!. Calling the Senators and making sure they support is only 15 %, if just by calling Senators, or sending emails to them, alone a bill passes, then by this time, H.R.3012 would have become law there are other under currents in a legislative process. H.R.3012 is the bill already passed the congress and waiting for the legislation on senate calendar. STEM bill at the same time is still a proposal, not even passed congress!.:o I would be rather in that 15% (calling to Senators) than just reading news by clicking the links provided here or reading fake analysis provided with hidden agendas.

[pakkpk]

Read between the lines: "Rep. Luis Gutierrez (D-Ill.), who has talked to Smith about the issue, said he supports boosting STEM visas without reducing visas elsewhere."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0912/81277.html#ixzz26k4dvpGt
I completely disagree. We can continue with the efforts on HR 3012, but there is absolutely nothing wrong to push for the STEM bill. STEM bill looks more probable than HR 3012 anyway, because it won't have any opposition from the ROW, and any Senator attempting to block it will have to explain the uncomfortable question of "why let in 55K random people versus preferring 55K US educated STEM masters/PhDs". The US Universities are a stakeholder in the STEM bill and would have a greater influence. The technology sector will also be squarely behind the STEM bill.

I understand that HR 3012 is **'s prime action item and kudos to them for the progress on the bill, but we need to seek what's best for EB-I folks, and the STEM bill is looking promising. If it passes the House, it will be exactly where the HR3012 is at right now.

[abcx13]

I think things could get very interesting if this passes the House as expected and Republicans win the Senate (though I guess they won't be in office for the lame duck session). I won't rule out the STEM bill completely yet, even if the chances don't seem great for the Democrats caving in (probably less than 50%). It is an election year and if Republicans get aggressive about 50k DV vs. US educated STEM MS, there might be some pressure on the Democrats.

[gs1968]

I don't understand how Democrats can hold up a DV for STEM replacement. This is ludicrous. Since replacement is the only option on the table, they should just pass the damn thing. 50k US educated STEM MS >> 50k DV anyday regardless of the bullshit 'diversity' they want to preserve. There is enough diversity in this country and 50k out of ~1M legal immigrants really doesn't move the needle. I really wish this passes in the House and the Republicans lampoon the Democrats over this. And I would imagine XXXXX Grassley would support it too since it gets rid of DV which he has long advocated for. And Lamar Smith has more seniority than Chaffetz so that'll be another positive factor.

Why is replacement the only option and not addition? Which of the 2 parties is insisting on this?
You do realize that the Republicans need Democratic support at both levels first in the House to get the 2/3 majority and then in the Senate to even bring it to the Floor. Why not incorporate some Democratic ideas to ensure better chances of success?
If the Republicans say no they are perceived as uncompromising on their principles but if the Democrats say no they are perceived as obstructionist.

[cool_mj007]

Please join the live webcast @ Brookings Institute on 27th. Also remember to share out your thoughts via #TechCTI.
http://www.brookings.edu/events/2012/09/27-stem-education

[abcx13]

Why is replacement the only option and not addition? Which of the 2 parties is insisting on this? You do realize that the Republicans need Democratic support at both levels first in the House to get the 2/3 majority and then in the Senate to even bring it to the Floor. Why not incorporate some Democratic ideas to ensure better chances of success? If the Republicans say no they are perceived as uncompromising on their principles but if the Democrats say no they are perceived as obstructionist.

It's the only option because it's the only bill that will be put for a vote. The republicans will not vote on Lofgren's bill. I realize Republicans need some Democratic support, but I feel they can get it at least in the House. Probably not in the Senate.

This is not about uncompromising vs. obstructionist. This is about the DV being a stupid idea from the get go and a sop for the Irish. If you apply any sort of utilitarian calculus, given a fixed immigration quota, it will ALWAYS make sense to swap the DV for STEM MS. So the Democrats are being obstructionist and stupid. Even if you add 50k STEM visas without axing DV, the question is whether America really needs DV. And it's even less clear whether those people aren't a leech on the taxpayer unlike STEM immigrants who are net gains to the economy (maybe not bodyshoppers but the intended recipients of the STEM visa).

[rupen86]

It's the only option because it's the only bill that will be put for a vote. The republicans will not vote on Lofgren's bill. I realize Republicans need some Democratic support, but I feel they can get it at least in the House. Probably not in the Senate.

This is not about uncompromising vs. obstructionist. This is about the DV being a stupid idea from the get go and a sop for the Irish. If you apply any sort of utilitarian calculus, given a fixed immigration quota, it will ALWAYS make sense to swap the DV for STEM MS. So the Democrats are being obstructionist and stupid. Even if you add 50k STEM visas without axing DV, the question is whether America really needs DV. And it's even less clear whether those people aren't a leech on the taxpayer unlike STEM immigrants who are net gains to the economy (maybe not bodyshoppers but the intended recipients of the STEM visa).

Which voting constituency of democrats would be affected if they vote for ending the DV ?

[iamdeb]

There could be amendments. For example:

1. Do not eliminate DV completely, but reduce it to 35K and use the 20K for EB STEM visas.
2. Create a new category in EB and apply all spillover from EB1/4/5 first to that new category. Plenty of EB2 and EB3 folks could qualify. This new category should work irrespective of countries and by PDs only. So, the first people who would be helped would be in EB3-I who qualify for the STEM. See? Instead of spillovers going exclusively for EB2-I, EB3-I would get some spillover from STEM too. So, HR 3012 is not the only bill that can help.

I have always maintained my admiration for ** despite the criticism it attracts. I will always support HR 3012. But I will also support STEM. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bills that could help us.

How does it help EB3-I?
In order to qualify for the STEM, you need Masters Degree from USA.
EB3 people anyways don't satisfy that criteria.

[rupen86]

How does it help EB3-I?
In order to qualify for the STEM, you need Masters Degree from USA.
EB3 people anyways don't satisfy that criteria.

I do not know how it benefits EB1 also because it is CURRENT anyway.

[vishnu]

agreed rupen - i think when ppl think STEM bills, they think a GC automatically stapled, so no need for a job etc... in this case, a job is required along with the need to file perm etc. still not easy in this environment. a large chunk of those 50k STEM GC's will not be used!

[immitime]

There could be amendments. For example:

1. Do not eliminate DV completely, but reduce it to 35K and use the 20K for EB STEM visas.
2. Create a new category in EB and apply all spillover from EB1/4/5 first to that new category. Plenty of EB2 and EB3 folks could qualify. This new category should work irrespective of countries and by PDs only. So, the first people who would be helped would be in EB3-I who qualify for the STEM. See? Instead of spillovers going exclusively for EB2-I, EB3-I would get some spillover from STEM too. So, HR 3012 is not the only bill that can help.

I have always maintained my admiration for ** despite the criticism it attracts. I will always support HR 3012. But I will also support STEM. There is nothing wrong with having 2 bills that could help us.

:D There could be or would be... is only just expectation. Think about the journey of H.R.3012 its almost an year! after passing congress.. I don't deny the chances of STEM, but less hope

[gs1968]

To abcx13
I was merely implying that there has to be negotiation and consensus before bringing a Bill to the Floor to maximize chances of success. The limits set by the IMMACT 1990 which also created the EB categories and the dual intent H-1B visa were applicable to the population of America then which was 248 million.There are 313 million people in the country now and an increase of 55,000 will hardly move the needle.If the republicans were serious, they could always make this argument to their base. I am a physicain and extremely pro-immigrant. My only wish is for the USA not to suffer the same effects of negative growth that Europe is grappling with now. The total fertility rate in this country has fallen below replacement levels in the last 2 years and we need as many immigrants as possible to sustain the growth rate. The 2 contributors to population growth at this time are immigration and population momentum (the increase in population due to increasing numbers of women in child-bearing age due to previous high birth rates). This would be a perfect opportunity to increase immigration albeit by a measly 5%

Below is an interesting link to the negotiations behind the original diversity Program if you are interested in history

https://www.numbersusa.com/PDFs/TheDiversityVisaProgram.pdf

Immigration should be in national interest and not driven by special interests. Every immigrant to this country lays seeds for the future and even though some DV immigrants may not have MS/Phd - it may merely reflect a lack of opportunity rather than ability and their children given the chance in this country may be the shining stars of the future.

[rupen86]

agreed rupen - i think when ppl think STEM bills, they think a GC automatically stapled, so no need for a job etc... in this case, a job is required along with the need to file perm etc. still not easy in this environment. a large chunk of those 50k STEM GC's will not be used!

if it is not used, it will help EB2 in using spillover. But I do not see this helping EB3.

[pakkpk]

Not true, I have an MS in STEM with EB3. I know so many of my friends have an MS degree but stuck in EB3 mess.
if it is not used, it will help EB2 in using spillover. But I do not see this helping EB3.

[rupen86]

STEM is not about exclusively helping EB3-I. It is about giving a fair chance to people who are educated in the US.

Many people have maintained that EB3-I and in fact even EB3-ROW have a lot of people who are educated in the US and possess Masters or even higher in rare cases. Those people now get ahead in the queue, while people in EB2-IC get behind who *do not* possess US STEM qualification.

So instead of the spillover getting applied completely to EB2-I, now qualified people in EB3-I get ahead in line and get some spillover, which has the net effect of helping EB3-I. STEM without the DV visas is actually detrimental to EB2-I as a whole and EB3-I can only gain.

Let's say some people from Eb2 move to this category (assume Eb6) and some from Eb3 will move here (I do not think Eb3 number would be significant). So in this case, there would be little reduced backlog from Eb3 but at the same time Eb2 is not loosing because it is getting whatever it was getting and some of the people are moving to new category which should help Eb2 also. I did not understand your point of this being detrimental to Eb2-I

[kd2008]

Please spare two minutes of your life to make calls to Senators urging them to pass HR 3012. You have nothing to lose.

[gs1968]

Two more news reports on the STEM Bill

http://www.newsmax.com/US/gop-visas-foreign-nationals/2012/09/17/id/452039

http://www.voxxi.com/republicans-push-for-stem-visa-before-congress-recesses/

[Pedro Gonzales]

First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

[abcx13]

First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

Interesting analysis. I thought on-line and part-time degrees will be excluded unless they aren't from a small list (200-300) of research institutions. And I haven't read the bill, but I assumed you can't port from EB3 to this new STEM visa since technically your job doesn't require a MS even if you have one (same argument as why these ppl aren't eligible for EB2 despite having a MS)? If you can port from EB3 to STEM just by virtue of having a MS, even if online schools are excluded, then I agree with you that EB2I could be slow moving for a while (though I doubt there are 56% with a US STEM MS in EB3ROW).

[kkruna]

[QUOTE=Pedro Gonzales;30065]... so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.

Did not understand above. Why should spillover go to EB3 first? EB3 can have US Masters but so can EB2 (higher chances).

Of course, if they keep per-country cap, we would see more contention in coming years since the university admission data is very different for international students.

[abcx13]

... so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.

Did not understand above. Why should spillover go to EB3 first? EB3 can have US Masters but so can EB2 (higher chances).

Of course, if they keep per-country cap, we would see more contention in coming years since the university admission data is very different for international students.

If EB2 and EB3 applicants with STEM MS end up in this new category, say EB6, with country quotas, then EB6-I will have a lot of ppl from EB3-I with pre-07 PDs. Unless there is SO across within EB6 from EB6-ROW, EB6-I will be retrogressed for a while and will be processed in order of PD (generally speaking). So those EB3I porters with older PDs will benefit and EB2Is will still languish.

[cbordu_111]

Sen. Charles Schumer is introducing the version that Rep. Zoe Lofgren introduced in the house. There is no chance I think Rep. Smiths bill can get 2/3rd of the votes.

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/249919-schumer-to-push-high-skilled-immigration-bill

Did have hopes on HR 3012, but I can bet you a dollar that bill is dead.

[abcx13]

Sen. Charles Schumer is introducing the version that Rep. Zoe Lofgren introduced in the house. There is no chance I think Rep. Smiths bill can get 2/3rd of the votes.

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/249919-schumer-to-push-high-skilled-immigration-bill

Did have hopes on HR 3012, but I can bet you a dollar that bill is dead.

Look, there's a lot of talk. I view it as a good thing even if it turns out to be political posturing. Who knows? Maybe the 1% probability that they can compromise actually comes true. And maybe there will be some STEM/immigration reform next year if both houses are controlled by the same party after the elections.

At this point though, some senior leaders in the House and the Senate will really have to coordinate and show some true bipartisanship, which in this case, I think, should involve the Republicans yielding and passing STEM in addition to DV.

[Ramsen]

If congress is really interested in removing country quota they could have removed atleast in this 55k no of gcs


First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

[chengisk]

If congress is really interested in removing country quota they could have removed atleast in this 55k no of gcs

Can you please expand that?

[chengisk]

Two more news reports on the STEM Bill

http://www.newsmax.com/US/gop-visas-foreign-nationals/2012/09/17/id/452039

http://www.voxxi.com/republicans-push-for-stem-visa-before-congress-recesses/

There is some more information on Smith's bill at,
http://www.fairus.org/legislative-updates/fair-legislative-update-september-17-2012#1

Some of the in-built restriction (cap, labor, etc.) gives me the feeling that if and when the bill becomes law, the 55k visas may not be completely utilized in a given FY.

[Jonty Rhodes]

I called the Senators. But my feeling is, nothing is going to happen till lame duck. In fact, now I am doubting whether anything regarding legal imigration would happen during lame duck. Any immigration bill will only move forward if one party has majority both in the House and the Sente. If BO wins with majority, which it seems could happen looking at the poll numbers, expect no stand-alone legal immigration reform. Democrats will not touch legal immigration without making it a part of CIR. If Republicans win with majority and end up controlling both the House and Senate, we have a small hope of some legal immigration reform but their tea-party members can derail it especially since the economy is not showing any signs of improvement and unemployment hovering around 8 percent. Personally, I have more hopes on Democrats doing something about immigration than Republicans even though in general, Republicans are more pro-legal immigration. I really wish to be proved wrong but until some miracle happens, I don't see these guys getting together on any issue till the elections are over.

[rupen86]

First off, I called all 4 of my senators and left messages urging support for HR3012. I think they all have received several of these calls. I do not know if these calls will help, but it took barely over 5 minutes altogether, so not a large investment on my part. You guys should too.

Secondly, from a quick read of the GOP STEM bill, I believe it will bring a visible but not significant benefit to EB3I, a significant benefit to EB3ROW and only a delayed benefit to EB2I. Here is why.

a) These add 55,000 visas per year. These are applied with country caps in place. So, EB2 and EB3 I only receive about 3,850 of these. There are currently over 50,000 people in the EB3I queue pre-2007. I would expect at least 25% of these folks have a US masters degree. That would account for all the 3,850 for a couple of years at least, and since these folks have PDs earlier than EB2I, none flow down to EB2I. You can also bet once this is implemented, and since on-line and part-time degrees are included, it will form a far better avenue for EB3 folks to port, so EB2I will not get any of these until the EB3I queue improves significantly, several years down the road.
b) The remaining 47,300 of these (assuming China also uses up 3,850) will first serve to drop down to EB3ROW (and some EB2ROW folks). At about 14,000 per year for 6 years (2007 through 2012) there will be 84,000 folks in the EB3ROW queue (not just in the Inventory - that's only pre July 2007). For this to contribute to spillover in year 1, we would be looking for less than 56% of them to have US STEM Masters. I haven't seen any numbers behind how many EB3ROW folks have STEM masters but in any case, this category will only contribute to EB2I after EB3ROW has moved significantly forward.

Ofcourse I would support any STEM visa bill as it would provide me with an indirect benefit (via spillovers in year 2), but I believe it will only serve to increase the spread between ROW and I timeframes, and so only increase the unfairness of country caps.

If HR 3012 is passed along with this, then there could be more significant effect.

[abcx13]

There is some more information on Smith's bill at,
http://www.fairus.org/legislative-updates/fair-legislative-update-september-17-2012#1

Some of the in-built restriction (cap, labor, etc.) gives me the feeling that if and when the bill becomes law, the 55k visas may not be completely utilized in a given FY.

Interesting quote on BHO:

"Similarly, President Obama has urged businesses that have long lobbied for more skilled green cards to not support the Smith bill. "

That says it all. He supports a bunch of illegal kids and lottery winners over people who have studied and worked hard in this country. Rank cowardice - but what else can you expect from someone who is proud of drone attacks...

P.S. - Yes, I know they were kids and likely did nothing wrong, but if you can legalize them, you should legalize *legal* immigrants too. He should really just cook up another exec order once this legislation stalls - like not counting dependents...

[Jonty Rhodes]

Interesting quote on BHO:

"Similarly, President Obama has urged businesses that have long lobbied for more skilled green cards to not support the Smith bill. "

That says it all. He supports a bunch of illegal kids and lottery winners over people who have studied and worked hard in this country. Rank cowardice - but what else can you expect from someone who is proud of drone attacks...

P.S. - Yes, I know they were kids and likely did nothing wrong, but if you can legalize them, you should legalize *legal* immigrants too. He should really just cook up another exec order once this legislation stalls - like not counting dependents...

BO and Democrats won't do it because they see no political gains from it. People who are stuck in backlogs will not immediately become eligible to vote so he won't do it when the election is hovering around. He made those illegals legal to play gallery to the other Latino voters who are US citizens which is a large chunk of vote he can get. I don't think that Democrats are against legal immigration in general but this is all just a big part of the political game.

I don't know what's the association of "being proud of drone attacks" and "making illegals legal". In fact, Republicans have not opposed BO's policy of drone attacks in Afghanistan either. At least, on that point, they have a consensus. :p

[abcx13]

I don't know what's the association of "being proud of drone attacks" and "making illegals legal". Cowardice. The only reason he legalized the kids was to win votes and because he didn't have the courage to actually push it through Congress in his first 2 years when the Dems controlled both houses. He could also have done an EA at any other time. The only reason he did it was for the votes.

This is an easy bill. I don't think people care too much about the DV lottery anyway. Most Americans I know would be happy to see a STEM visa instead of the stupid DV. But then the people I know would also support just increasing the immigration limit...

The Democrats may not be against illegal immigration but they seem to think bullshit liberal bleeding heart causes like amnesty and a diversity lottery are more important than legal immigration. Seriously, which other country has a freaking lottery for visas?

[qesehmk]

abc - i am not going to debate anything else you mentioned. I have mixed opinions on these things. But I think the phrase - BHO - you used is used by republicans to indirectly stoke anti muslim sentiments.

While we may or may not agree with Obama or Bush or whoever; we should try not to single out or stereotype a particular group (muslim or otherwise) in negative way. You probably didn't mean it. But please be mindful about it.


Interesting quote on BHO:

....

[abcx13]

abc - i am not going to debate anything else you mentioned. I have mixed opinions on these things. But I think the phrase - BHO - you used is used by republicans to indirectly stoke anti muslim sentiments.

While we may or may not agree with Obama or Bush or whoever; we should try not to single out or stereotype a particular group (muslim or otherwise) in negative way. You probably didn't mean it. But please be mindful about it.

Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I use BHO the same way people use GWB. My bad. I also used to call the Japanese Japs until someone pointed out that it was offensive.

[qesehmk]

abc - no worries and appreciate your understanding. I too am guilty of similar mistakes some other times!
Sorry, I didn't mean it that way. I use BHO the same way people use GWB. My bad. I also used to call the Japanese Japs until someone pointed out that it was offensive.

[rupen86]

From Oh Law firm. Look at No 5. Those who have done MS and higher outside US will also come under "brightest" and will be benefited.

09/18/2012: Sen. Schumer Press Release of BRAINS Act

This following highlights his bill.

1. It creates a 2-year pilot program to provide 55,000 new green cards per year for foreign students who graduate from U.S. universities with advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (“STEM”).

2. To be eligible, an alien must 1) have received a master’s degree or higher from an eligible U.S. university in science, technology, engineering, or mathematics; 2) have an offer of employment in the U.S. in a STEM field, and 3) be petitioned for by an employer who has gone through labor certification to show that there are not sufficient American workers able, willing, equally qualified and available for the job at the wage level paid by the employer to all other individuals with similar experience and qualifications for the job.

3. To be eligible for its students to receive green cards, a university must be: 1) accredited; 2) at least 10 years old; and 3) classified as a research institution by the Director of the National Science Foundation. The school cannot provide incentive payments to persons based on securing foreign students for the university.

4. It encourages the best and brightest foreign students to study, live, and work in the United States by allowing them to receive student visas to attend our colleges and universities to study in STEM fields. STEM students will no longer be required to demonstrate that they have no desire to stay permanently in the U.S. as a precondition to being allowed to attend school here.

5. It provides any unused green cards from this program to be used to reduce the backlog for employment-based green cards that exists for highly-skilled STEM advanced-degree graduates from foreign universities.

6. It allows temporary workers on high-skilled visas who have not violated their status to renew their visas from within the United States.

7. I provides labor protections to ensure that foreign workers do not take high-paying high-skilled jobs that American workers are available to fill.

8. It codifies the practice that the priority date (for determining an alien’s place in line) for an employer’s green card petition is the date that the employer files the labor certification application. The bill also ensures that an alien who switches from one green card family-preference category to another retains their original priority date, and that an alien who switches from one green card employer-preference category to another retains their original priority date.

9. It expands “age-out” protection in current law to benefit minor children who turn 21 while they wait for their green cards to become available.

10. It encourages highly skilled workers to remain in the United States by providing for faster reunification with their spouses and minor children. This is done by creating a new entry slot for a nuclear family member of a highly-skilled permanent resident when a lawful permanent resident is deported. Consequently, net immigration is not increased, but family reunification is expedited.

[abcx13]

6. It allows temporary workers on high-skilled visas who have not violated their status to renew their visas from within the United States.

8. It codifies the practice that the priority date (for determining an alien’s place in line) for an employer’s green card petition is the date that the employer files the labor certification application. The bill also ensures that an alien who switches from one green card family-preference category to another retains their original priority date, and that an alien who switches from one green card employer-preference category to another retains their original priority date.

9. It expands “age-out” protection in current law to benefit minor children who turn 21 while they wait for their green cards to become available.

10. It encourages highly skilled workers to remain in the United States by providing for faster reunification with their spouses and minor children. This is done by creating a new entry slot for a nuclear family member of a highly-skilled permanent resident when a lawful permanent resident is deported. Consequently, net immigration is not increased, but family reunification is expedited.

I thought these were interesting too. Looks like a nice bill if it could be passed. Not sure if it would require a new labor cert. Or existing EB2 could qualify.

[immitime]

All these bills are not going anywhere, only political manouvering. The same OH law firm is reporting this. understand the POLITRICKS!

Source: - http://www.immigration-law.com/

pun intended (hopefully Q won't say this is Plagiarism!) source is above.

BRAINS Act" which is somewhat close to the Democrat Rep. Zoe Lofgren bill in the House in that it gives 50,000 new STEM visas, but unlike the Rep. Smith bill, will not eliminate the immigration lottery program and rather add some restrictions to the for-profit employers sponsoring such STEM immigration petitions. Anyone is surprised? NOPE..................

This reporter anticipated and reported this earlier. The Smith STEM bill, even if it passes in the Republican House day after tomorrow, 09/20/2012, the Democratic Senate will not pass the Smith bill as it is now and more or less support the concept of Rep. Zoe Lofgren's proposal which has suffered slapping in the face by the Republican House that will put the Republican bill on the floor for vote as soon as the bill is introduced tomorrow. while the Lofgren.s bill has been ignored in scheduling for either hearing or putting on the voting in the Republican House. Read on. For the reasons, it is speculated that the STEM bill will go nowhere before the national election. Both parties are just reacting to the mounting political pressures from high tech industry

The above bolded portion proves that this bills are dead on arrival eitherway!

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/249943-overnight-tech-congress-to-tackle-high-skilled-immigration-bills

[abcx13]

While both parties have supported high-skilled immigration reform

I think they should stop saying this. I think neither party actually supports high-skilled immigration in and of itself. The Dems support illegals and lottery winners more and the Reps support big business (it just so happens that in this case immigrant interests are aligned with immigrants' interests). Sadly none of the liberal media will ever have the courage to point out the flaw in the Democrats position. The Republicans are actually right on axing the DV I think.

And while I think the Republicans should compromise (what are 50k visas?), the corpse of this bill will ultimately rest at the feet of Democrats, who place lottery winners over STEM immigrants. Maybe they can buy a lottery ticket to pay off America's debt too? The way they are going that's probably the only thing that will bail out this country...

Pity the poor immigrant.

[rupen86]

I thought these were interesting too. Looks like a nice bill if it could be passed. Not sure if it would require a new labor cert. Or existing EB2 could qualify.

Does No 6 mean H1 stamping can be done from here?

[rupen86]

Doesn't mention if country caps are in place when allocating the 55K visas. If so, EB3-ROW is the biggest winner as pointed out by Pedro, as their wait time will decrease very dramatically. I am happy to see a sensible bill on the table, but looking at it from the perspective of the EBx-I backlog, I am not feeling as excited now as I felt before.

It does not say anything about per country cap and understandably so because that work is left to HR 3012.

[justvisiting]

It does not say anything about per country cap and understandably so because that work is left to HR 3012.

The two House bills (Dem and Repub versions) both specifically mention country caps and extend them to EB-6.

[Ramsen]

It shows the suspicion that congress is not really interested in removing the country caps. Republicans are interested in employment based country quota removal but not interested in increasing family based. Democrats are opposite. So both of them supported as both provisions are there. Suddenly sleeping ROW got up and with the help of AILA(They do not want HR 3012 with Grassley Amendment). Also there is a division in AILA for phase out plan. So these things made HR 3012 to stall in the senate. Now two house bills specifically mention country quota. If congress is not interested in removing country quota it is better to try with moderate bills like increase in country quota. The above analysis is speculative based on news stories and there is no solid evidence to support.


The two House bills (Dem and Repub versions) both specifically mention country caps and extend them to EB-6.

[druvraj]

None of these ideas will ever become a law during en election year. The only time it has chance of becoming a law is if and when the tech lobby tries really really hard. Until such time please do not get your hopes high for each one will be heartbroken. Remember for these politicians we do not belong to any of their bases hence very difficult to get our vote. We will vote with rationale mind which does not augur well for these guys. I know the wait is horrible but as of now all we can do is wait for our turn and our turn will surely come and then we can makes these same politician dance to our tunes(every vote matters).

[justvisiting]

None of these ideas will ever become a law during en election year. The only time it has chance of becoming a law is if and when the tech lobby tries really really hard. Until such time please do not get your hopes high for each one will be heartbroken. Remember for these politicians we do not belong to any of their bases hence very difficult to get our vote. We will vote with rationale mind which does not augur well for these guys. I know the wait is horrible but as of now all we can do is wait for our turn and our turn will surely come and then we can makes these same politician dance to our tunes(every vote matters).

AC21 passed in the 2000 lame duck session. So I wouldn't be optimistic but I wouldn't completley dismiss the possibility of a STEM bill passing.

[LUVSPIDER]

It takes only 2 minutes of your time to call the senator. It is very very easy..don't hesitate.

Call senator office and whoever picks up say "I would like the senator to Support and Vote for HR 3012" and you are done. They will only ask you the zip code where you live.

Please help yourself,pickup phone and call your Senators nowww.Thanks!

[cbordu_111]

LUVSPIDER, as much as I would have liked this bill to go through! I am EB2 India langishing with a PD of Dec 2010...the likelyhood of this bill being taken up by the sentate is zero, just to give you an update I spoke to my firms lawyer this morning the law firm is one of the biggest immigration law firms in the country. She explicitly stated that the likelyhood of HR 3012 to pass in this congress is pretty much none. According to her the bill still has a hold by two senators and the senate will never pick up a contentious bill with no political impacts or benifits to file a motion for cloture even if they knew they had 60 votes. According to her, this bill had a great chance of passage in November of 2011. As we all know three senators including Hon. Senator Grassley put a hold on this bill, Hon. Senator Grassley's hold was lifted by some very bothering ammendments and AILA will not support those ammendments. He anyways held the bill way to long to make sure it's pretty much worthless. To top it all off, the house goes on recess starting Friday and will not be back until after the elections so there is zero probability (which unfortunately makes it an absolute certainity) of this bill becoming a law. What I don't understand is why ** is still asking people to make calls. This could be solely for their personal gains as they would still need funds to operate, trust me I have nothing against ** but the problem is giving false hopes and actually spreading false hopes I think is unethical. Having seen what's been going on, neither HR 3012 or STEM bill has any chance this year. Next year is anyones guess but looking as what has been going on for the last 3.5 years I highly doubt any immigration related bill has a chance even next year. I am typically an optimist but I am also a realist....

[gcq]

cbordu_111,
There are many things that AILA doesn't know and ** knows. AILA is against the bill after grassley's amendment. That is the reason they are predicting the death of this bill ( discouraging it). It is in their interest to see that this bill is not supported by us.

So Ignore what your law firm told you and call your senators.

[LUVSPIDER]

LUVSPIDER, as much as I would have liked this bill to go through! I am EB2 India langishing with a PD of Dec 2010...the likelyhood of this bill being taken up by the sentate is zero, just to give you an update I spoke to my firms lawyer this morning the law firm is one of the biggest immigration law firms in the country. She explicitly stated that the likelyhood of HR 3012 to pass in this congress is pretty much none. According to her the bill still has a hold by two senators and the senate will never pick up a contentious bill with no political impacts or benifits to file a motion for cloture even if they knew they had 60 votes. According to her, this bill had a great chance of passage in November of 2011. As we all know three senators including Hon. Senator Grassley put a hold on this bill, Hon. Senator Grassley's hold was lifted by some very bothering ammendments and AILA will not support those ammendments. He anyways held the bill way to long to make sure it's pretty much worthless. To top it all off, the house goes on recess starting Friday and will not be back until after the elections so there is zero probability (which unfortunately makes it an absolute certainity) of this bill becoming a law. What I don't understand is why ** is still asking people to make calls. This could be solely for their personal gains as they would still need funds to operate, trust me I have nothing against ** but the problem is giving false hopes and actually spreading false hopes I think is unethical. Having seen what's been going on, neither HR 3012 or STEM bill has any chance this year. Next year is anyones guess but looking as what has been going on for the last 3.5 years I highly doubt any immigration related bill has a chance even next year. I am typically an optimist but I am also a realist....

Cbordu_111,

I also don't like the highhandedness of **. I never donated any amount to ** nor attended any rally conducted by **.

What ** asked this time was to call our senators & express our support for HR 3012 bill. Remember by doing so, you are not representing **.

The senator staff will just ask for your post code & not the organization which you are representing.

If there is no pressure from their constituents, the politicians will NEVER ACT. That's the only reason, why I made calls to the senators this morning.

Please don't worry about the outcome & sincerely suggest you to call your senators right away and tell them your views on this bill.

Good luck.

Cheers,
LUVSPIDER

[cbordu_111]

GCQ, if I had to take an educated guess my lawyers opinion has got nothing to do with AILA she was just being brutally honest. It really is the fact of the matter, there is zero possibility of this bill to be enacted into law. The senate is off after Friday and only convenes for a lame duck session, the house is off starting Friday. This bill just does not have the time to be picked up voted for then with the ammendments go back to the house to be voted again. Unfortunately this bill has run out of time. Trust me ** knows as much as AILA, for that matter AILA would be more knowledgable. I am a resident of a state whose senators are Hon. Senator Charles Shumer and Hon. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. I called their office and voiced my support, I was informed in very clear terms that there is a hold on the bill.

[rupen86]

GCQ, if I had to take an educated guess my lawyers opinion has got nothing to do with AILA she was just being brutally honest. It really is the fact of the matter, there is zero possibility of this bill to be enacted into law. The senate is off after Friday and only convenes for a lame duck session, the house is off starting Friday. This bill just does not have the time to be picked up voted for then with the ammendments go back to the house to be voted again. Unfortunately this bill has run out of time. Trust me ** knows as much as AILA, for that matter AILA would be more knowledgable. I am a resident of a state whose senators are Hon. Senator Charles Shumer and Hon. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. I called their office and voiced my support, I was informed in very clear terms that there is a hold on the bill.

If we see the way events have happened, one would logically believe that the bill (3012) is dead. After months of negotiations, the hold was released, ** organized rally and other immigration bill like EB5 passed but 3012 did not. I am not sure about other 2 senators holding bill. Is that official ? Do we have the link for that ? If other senators had objections, what was the need for Grassley and other parties to negotiate. I would assume that they did not do this to kill time.

For the STEM bill, I believe it is political posturing and it does not have chance to pass the this year. I believe it would have better chances of passing next year if either party controls both house and senate.

[SaibabaAug2010]

I too believe that the chances of HR3012 getting through the congress during the Lame Duck session are bleak. I think many lobbyists went on silent mode after Grassley amendments as those amendments will tight their nose. Since there is no strong lobbying for this bill, senate is not considering in bringing the bill to floor. I really wish I am wrong on this.

When it’s comes to STEM bill, I think Schumer proposal is better (though I don’t like diversity lottery green card) for EBx –IC as only his proposal allows the left over visas spill to EBx. IF it becomes law the very 1st year most of the visas (I think around 30 to 40K) will spill to EB2.As per his proposal an alien must go through labor certification process and which will take months to file and get it certified (roughly 8 to 10 months) and after 140 and 485 has to clear. So there is a good chunk of numbers will spill in 1st year. I know there is a BIG IF involved here. If the tech lobby is very strong and they can influence Grassley and conservatives in Republican Party I do not see a reason why it cannot pass the line.

[Jonty Rhodes]

LUVSPIDER, as much as I would have liked this bill to go through! I am EB2 India langishing with a PD of Dec 2010...the likelyhood of this bill being taken up by the sentate is zero, just to give you an update I spoke to my firms lawyer this morning the law firm is one of the biggest immigration law firms in the country. She explicitly stated that the likelyhood of HR 3012 to pass in this congress is pretty much none. According to her the bill still has a hold by two senators and the senate will never pick up a contentious bill with no political impacts or benifits to file a motion for cloture even if they knew they had 60 votes. According to her, this bill had a great chance of passage in November of 2011. As we all know three senators including Hon. Senator Grassley put a hold on this bill.

I agree with everything you say but the portion highlighted in Bold. Somehow Honorable and Grassley just do not suit together.

[gs1968]

To SaiBABa2010

The Bill is in rough waters and hopefully can make it through.If it does not pass the House then Republicans will have no incentive to negotiate

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/250519-stem-jobs-act-stymied-in-house-by-competing-visa-bill

On a different note the Diversity visas are probably not the Deal breaker here

http://influencealley.nationaljournal.com/2012/09/why-the-schumersmith-immigrati.php

This from the Senate Democrats website-there may be a vote-o-rama to allow Senators to leave town ASAP-hopefully 3012 is in the mix

"We will begin consideration of the continuing resolution during Thursday’s session. We hope to reach an agreement to move up several roll call votes and avoid being in session this weekend in order to complete our work."

They are unlikely to amend the CR 117 so I wonder what the other Bills under consideration are

[qesehmk]

..
What ** asked this time was to call our senators & express our support for HR 3012 bill. Remember by doing so, you are not representing **.

Friends - I agree w spider. Since this is in the interest of immigrant community, just do it regardless your opinion about **.

Secondly - don't agonize too much over it. Since it is almost futile to attribute cause and effect. So just do your small bit and let it go!

[gs1968]

If we see the way events have happened, one would logically believe that the bill (3012) is dead. After months of negotiations, the hold was released, ** organized rally and other immigration bill like EB5 passed but 3012 did not. I am not sure about other 2 senators holding bill. Is that official ? Do we have the link for that ? If other senators had objections, what was the need for Grassley and other parties to negotiate. I would assume that they did not do this to kill time.

For the STEM bill, I believe it is political posturing and it does not have chance to pass the this year. I believe it would have better chances of passing next year if either party controls both house and senate.

To rupen86

I have researched hard for a direct link to confirm that information but there are only indirect links through Irish central.
In spite of trying to eliminate secret holds,I think it is still common practice. A lot happens in the trenches of the Senate out of public view. An example is the hold on a Special envoy legislation which was placed on the Senate Calendar the same day as HR 3012.No mention of this hold in Congressional Record but it still exists

http://www.persecution.org/2012/07/13/senator-jim-webb-asked-to-lift-hold-on-legislation-to-create-envoy-for-religious-minorities-in-the-middle-east/

[chengisk]

I agree with everything you say but the portion highlighted in Bold. Somehow Honorable and Grassley just do not suit together.

This was what he did yesterday, how can he be not honorable?
S.Res. 569 (Sen. Grassley): A resolution designating the week beginning October 21, 2012, as "National Character Counts Week".
-- Submitted in the Senate, considered, and agreed to without amendment and with a preamble by Unanimous Consent.

[vishnu]

Yup - agreed with Sportsfan's comments - do call the senators offices. They are certainly receiving calls reg: HR 3012 and taking down details such as zip code etc. Im sure at end of each day, they tally # of calls for/against and send reports to senators...

** may not be most eloquent in the way they ask for donations / and they do sound heavy handed / arrogant but they are the only grp out there speaking on behalf of EB 2/3 India as far as the legaslative process goes. They possibly may not have expected the magniture of the roadblocks (Grassley hold, amendment, AILA opposition etc), so its probably a learning process for them too..but again I ask, are there other groups also talking to politicians / lobbying for similar reform.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Chordu,

It's all math. If you sincerely believe there is 0% probability of this passing, then you're unrealistically pessimistic.

I think there is a 1% chance of HR3012 passing this year, and the benefit of it passing is worth $100K to me (the actual NPV of moving to a higher paying job now vs. a year later + my perceived NPV of being able to join my wife and daughter now rather than a year from now) so making these calls would help towards a $1K benefit to me at a cost < 5 minutes a day for a week or two. The benefits outweighs the costs by far.

Do your own math and see if its worth it for you. If there is no obvious benefit (offers in hand contingent on a green card), think about the risk to you of losing your job before your green card comes through.

PS:- I can understand a pessimist not putting in the effort to improve his situation, but I am at a loss to understand a pessimist putting in effort to demotivate others.

[gs1968]

Tomorrow marks the first year anniversary of the start of this thread by gcq and 9/22 will be one year since Rep.Chaffetz introduced this Bill. We have spent a lot of time on various forums and it has been a roller-coaster ride.Hopefully the journey will end this week!!

[Pedro Gonzales]

I am a resident of a state whose senators are Hon. Senator Charles Shumer and Hon. Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. I called their office and voiced my support, I was informed in very clear terms that there is a hold on the bill.

I too am a resident of the great state of NY, and my read is very different. I was told that they both support HR3012, and that they are both getting a lot of calls in support of it. When I asked, Schumer's office informed me that there is a hold in place from across the aisle, and that if cloture is invoked the senator would vote in favor of HR3012. I did not get an answer to my question on whether the Senator would help to invoke cloture. Gillbrandt's office did not answer those questions. Bottom line, if Schumer is to put his considerable legislative weight behind invoking cloture, several 1000 calls in support of the bill daily can only help.

[vishnu]

Hold in place from across the aisle means hold from Republican?

[Pedro Gonzales]

Hold in place from across the aisle means hold from Republican?

yes, the GOP.

[pakkpk]

LUVSPIDER and Chodu_111,

Posting a fake commentory here is very easy. By not donating or participating in rally is your personal decision. You do not have any idea how advocacy and DC lawmaking works. **(grass root advocavy group) is not the only grpup behind 3012, there are other bigger non grass root players behind it. NY Senators support the bill and they will not speak for other hold on the bill until it becomes official. That is why ** is and other groups working different avenues.

Sportsfan33, I second your POST. Even 3012 does not pass, you lose nothing. You stay at the same place in the queue without 3012. You cut your greencard wait in half and bring fairness to the legal immigration system by 3012.

[vishnu]

yes - senators will absolutely not confirm holds/removal of them unless in the public domain via press release. i called sen grassley's office soon after ** announcement that he has agreed to remove the hold. A staffer said that the hold firmly remains in place...Literally 30 mins later, i saw an official statement on the senators website confirming the removal of the hold

[qesehmk]

WARNING...

Please keep the discussion civil. Refrain from personal attacks. Please address others properly just as you wish they did you.

[abcx13]

So when is the STEM bill coming up for vote today?

Also, from one of the posted articles it seems that it wasn't just axing DV that was the roadblock to reconciling the two versions, Schumer wanted to throw in some family reunification crap. The Dems are the ones derailing the bill by adding provisions for less-meritorious constituencies. This is politics of the lowest common denominator.

[justvisiting]

If cloture is needed, then there is zero chance it will come up this week. I agree with the 1-10% chance during the lame duck.

[kkruna]

Smith's bill under debate as of now ...

[abcx13]

Smith's bill under debate as of now ...

Watching CSPAN live online right now. Conyers really grasping at straws.

Plain lies from George Miller. He has apparently never heard of PWDs.

Impassioned defense from Gutierrez. Same BS argument that my parents were cab drivers implying that this is what America needs today.

[abcx13]

One more thing - does anyone find the Dems argument that Africans need DVs to come to this country slightly self-defeating? Aren't they indirectly implying that fewer Africans would come here on STEM visas? It's a rhetorical question, but I find it ironic that as the upholders of African immigration rights they are effectively insulting them and calling them less capable.

[feedmyback]

Sorry if this has been answered already. But I found this on Oh law firm site. Actually it is in the text of Schumer's BRAINS Act..

6. It allows temporary workers on high-skilled visas who have not violated their status to renew their visas from within the United States.

Does this mean, if it passes we can get a stamp from within USA and not worry about stamping when we visit our home country?

[immitime]

Sorry if this has been answered already. But I found this on Oh law firm site. Actually it is in the text of Schumer's BRAINS Act..

6. It allows temporary workers on high-skilled visas who have not violated their status to renew their visas from within the United States.

Does this mean, if it passes we can get a stamp from within USA and not worry about stamping when we visit our home country?

Yes, that is correct, if Schumer bill see light on present congress...Politics, Politics and POLITRICKS!

[immitime]

This is from OH law firm... I do not believe this, but some news about our H.R.3012

http://www.immigration-law.com/

For H.R. 3012, the business community and supporters of this bill apparently have worked hard to take it up on the Senate floor before the Senate goes into the recess. The Senate wants to wrap up most of its legislative work today so that the members of the Congress can go to their districts this weekend. This depends on passage of H.J. Res. 117 Continuing Resolution to fund the federal government for the next six month to prevent shut down of federal government at the end of this month. The House passed this bill and the Senate picked up this bill on the floor yesterday, but believe it or not, two Senators presented amendments before the Senate adjourned yesterday. The Senate will struggle with this bill today to keep their agenda to finish up their legislative works today. The Senate majority leader hopes that the Senate passes this bill and should they have time, the Senate wants to take up other Roll Call Vote bills as many as possible. It is uncertain whether H.R. 3012 can come within this plan, but even if yes, unless the Senate is able to pass the Continuing Resolutions without exhausting its entire time today, it is infeasible unless the unlikely scenario of unanimous consent that has been agreed up between the two party leaders. Please stay tuned.

[abcx13]

Well the STEM bill failed in the House. Thanks Democrats for NOTHING.

[immitime]

Well the STEM bill failed in the House. Thanks Democrats for NOTHING.

yeah.. yeah.. this was expected.. now next game is on in Senate with Schumer's Circus... one Republican Senator is enough to hold that bill then and there... So proved without any doubt... POLITRICKS!

[abcx13]

yeah.. yeah.. this was expected.. now next game is on in Senate with Schumer's Circus... one Republican Senator is enough to hold that bill then and there... So proved without any doubt... POLITRICKS!

Schumer's bill is now DOA because I don't think the Republicans will pass it. This is the Democrats playing Politricks.

[Pedro Gonzales]

One more thing - does anyone find the Dems argument that Africans need DVs to come to this country slightly self-defeating? Aren't they indirectly implying that fewer Africans would come here on STEM visas? It's a rhetorical question, but I find it ironic that as the upholders of African immigration rights they are effectively insulting them and calling them less capable.

Africa is a pet issue for a minority of Reps from the Congressional Black Caucus. In this case though, I think Rep. Lee was just confused. She kept referring to family reunification, which is not what the Diversity Visa is meant for. I think Smith was very effective by keeping focus on the fact that DV entrants are keeping African American and Latino unemployment at levels significantly higher than the national average, and one of the other Reps said something about how their STEM bill would replace 3,000 DV Nigerian immigrants with 3,000 STEM Nigerian immigrants.

In any case, this whole exercise is pointless, as the WH and Senate have a competing bill, so this has no legs whatsoever.

[immitime]

Schumer's bill is now DOA because I don't think the Republicans will pass it. This is the Democrats playing Politricks.

Everywhere both the parties are playing POLITRICKS! without any shame.!

[abcx13]

Africa is a pet issue for a minority of Reps from the Congressional Black Caucus. In this case though, I think Rep. Lee was just confused. She kept referring to family reunification, which is not what the Diversity Visa is meant for. I think Smith was very effective by keeping focus on the fact that DV entrants are keeping African American and Latino unemployment at levels significantly higher than the national average, and one of the other Reps said something about how their STEM bill would replace 3,000 DV Nigerian immigrants with 3,000 STEM Nigerian immigrants.

In any case, this whole exercise is pointless, as the WH and Senate have a competing bill, so this has no legs whatsoever.

The Republicans definitely had the more rational and convincing arguments. BTW, the DV costs the US $1.3 billion. That's $26k/person.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Well the STEM bill failed in the House. Thanks Democrats for NOTHING.

As expected. When you have a divided legislature and there are two competing bills, don't expect anything. Besides, STEM wasn't going to help us out immediately. As sportsfan pointed out earlier, it would increase the negative spread between EB2I and EB3ROW thereby increasing bitterness all around. I for one, would rather not be more bitter. Onwards and upwards with HR3012.

[abcx13]

As expected. When you have a divided legislature and there are two competing bills, don't expect anything. Besides, STEM wasn't going to help us out immediately. As sportsfan pointed out earlier, it would increase the negative spread between EB2I and EB3ROW thereby increasing bitterness all around. I for one, would rather not be more bitter. Onwards and upwards with HR3012.

I think STEM would still have helped out because you would still need a MS certified job to qualify. Anyway, moot point.

[chengisk]

I think STEM would still have helped out because you would still need a MS certified job to qualify. Anyway, moot point.

In addition to that, this bill, even if it had passed the house, it would have gone nowhere in the senate. The same might be true but in the reverse for Schumer's BRAIN act.

[immitime]

I think STEM would still have helped out because you would still need a MS certified job to qualify. Anyway, moot point.

Nothing really works.. unless if there is a legislation to increase the numbers for EB and FB category! and that is not going anywhere soon. only hope now is H.R.3012

[LUVSPIDER]

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9231522/Republican_STEM_visa_bill_fails

What surprised me is that U.S. Rep. Zoe Lofgren is against the spillover of visas from STEM to other EB categories.

************************************************** *********
U.S. Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.), who introduced her own bill, said she could not support Smith's bill.

"Although this bill ostensibly seeks to increase STEM visas, it appears to have another, in my opinion, more sinister purpose -- to actually reduce legal immigration levels," said Lofgren, in a statement.

Lofgren cited the elimination of the diversity visa, but also faulted the bill for now allowing unused visas to be used to reduce green card backlogs.

************************************************** *********

[vishnu]

luvspider - probably a typo - she faulted the bill for NOT... instead of now

[SaibabaAug2010]

To SaiBABa2010

The Bill is in rough waters and hopefully can make it through.If it does not pass the House then Republicans will have no incentive to negotiate

http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/250519-stem-jobs-act-stymied-in-house-by-competing-visa-bill

On a different note the Diversity visas are probably not the Deal breaker here

http://influencealley.nationaljournal.com/2012/09/why-the-schumersmith-immigrati.php

This from the Senate Democrats website-there may be a vote-o-rama to allow Senators to leave town ASAP-hopefully 3012 is in the mix

"We will begin consideration of the continuing resolution during Thursday’s session. We hope to reach an agreement to move up several roll call votes and avoid being in session this weekend in order to complete our work."

They are unlikely to amend the CR 117 so I wonder what the other Bills under consideration are

Smith / Zoe Lofgren proposals are out now and there is a very little chance for Schumer bill to pass through congress. Hopefully the tech lobbyists shift their energy towards 3012 and also hope it’s not really a lame duck session and our stuff gets passed during that period.

[SaibabaAug2010]

I do not believe this is accurate. I think STEM visas will mostly go to folks in EB3-ROW as Pedro has correctly pointed out. With country caps in place, EBx-I is going to get only a small share in these visas, and we will witness EB3-ROW becoming near current or have a wait time of only 2 to 3 years in very short time. I personally support the STEM bill, but I was extremely disappointed with the projected outcome and it will just increase the bitterness between the immigration communities further. If STEM is to be enacted, it needs to be coupled with country caps removal, otherwise the field is tilted even worse for us.

I have gone through Pedro analysis.

I do not see in any of the STEM proposals ( Only Schumer proposal is left now ) that existing STEM degree holders will not tested in the labor market again. Meaning, the STEM degree holders who are in EB3 now and want to jump to new STEM category they have to go through the PERM process again as their current job (PERM) doesn’t require a MS and the same will apply for few/all in EB2.

I still believe that there will be a good spillover to EB2 at least in the 1st year of STEM.

I know we are jumping the gun way ahead. But it’s always good if we get educate ourselves in a what IF scenario.

As always I am open to correct myself if there is a good theory.

[abcx13]

I do not think your analysis is correct. The STEM queue criterion is satisfied by STEM education...the job offer comes into the play as long as the candidate only works in the STEM field. Otherwise, there is no requirement for mandating a Masters. It may be a loophole, but it means that EB3-ROW would see most of the benefits.

It is a moot point anyway. STEM effort was doomed to fail from the beginning.

If it is just STEM education, then it is a flawed bill and I agree EB3s will overrun it. Especially if they allow SO to foreign STEM degree holders (though in theory this should only be after all US STEM holders have been processed). But reading between the lines, they require a STEM job, I think the requirements will be same as EB2 - it will also have to require a MS. Has anyone seen the actual text? Is the "job requires a Masters" for EB2 condition a USCIS admin law thing or is it codified?

Anyway, I am hopeful for at least some kind of legislation passing the lame duck...ideally it will be HR3012. Honestly I think that is still the best bill and the most beneficial. And then when white immigrants from Europe are backlogged too, we might see some higher quotas.

[immitime]

The President admits about his biggest failure. Great election show!

The Obama sound bite has buried the first part of Obama's answer: He admitted that his "biggest failure" was an inability to produce comprehensive immigration reform, though he placed much of the blame for that on Congressional Republicans that voted "no" on the DREAM Act.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-biggest-failure-immigration-reform-change-washington-univision-2012-9#ixzz277J3nY2Q

[chengisk]

The President admits about his biggest failure. Great election show!

The Obama sound bite has buried the first part of Obama's answer: He admitted that his "biggest failure" was an inability to produce comprehensive immigration reform, though he placed much of the blame for that on Congressional Republicans that voted "no" on the DREAM Act.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/obama-biggest-failure-immigration-reform-change-washington-univision-2012-9#ixzz277J3nY2Q

CIR proposed by this administration in 2009 has just about nothing in it for legal immigrants. The exception is setting up a committee to assess if the visa numbers need to be changed with the new economic requirements. The rest of it all about border security, supporting the undocumented workers with no criminal records, and dealing with workers who have no work permits and visa overstay tracking and control and such things. Because of a reference to amnesty in the CIR proposal, GOP had blocked any talk of the CIR bill in the house.

Moreover the President's Univision chat is specifically addressed to a latin american community and the CIR he is referring to has no bearing on STEM or HR3012 or H4 EAD or any of those thing we are interested in.

[immitime]

CIR proposed by this administration in 2009 has just about nothing in it for legal immigrants. The exception is setting up a committee to assess if the visa numbers need to be changed with the new economic requirements. The rest of it all about border security, supporting the undocumented workers with no criminal records, and dealing with workers who have no work permits and visa overstay tracking and control and such things. Because of a reference to amnesty in the CIR proposal, GOP had blocked any talk of the CIR bill in the house.

Moreover the President's Univision chat is specifically addressed to a latin american community and the CIR he is referring to has no bearing on STEM or HR3012 or H4 EAD or any of those thing we are interested in.

The proof is in the pudding if you have the patience to read the White House CIR proposal.. read it please.

The below is from the following Source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/immigration_blueprint.pdf

Go to page 26.. para 1. read again and again and understand

Making reforms to the existing employment- and family-based immigration system, including exempting immediate relatives of U.S. citizens from annual caps placed on legal immigration, and changing the categories and per country caps put in place to ensure successful high-skilled immigrants are able to remain in the U.S. permanently and U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents are able to reunite with their families more quickly;

again just one page above Page 25 under the Proposals.

is it not STEM???

Encouraging foreign students to stay in the U.S. and contribute to our economy by stapling a green card to the diplomas of science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM), PhDs and select STEM Masters Degrees students so that they will stay, contribute to the American economy, and become Americans over time;

[chengisk]

Thanks immitime. Appreciate your detailed reply. However, I believe where we are differing is in the document we are citing. You are linking to a document which is a Whitehouse dream, nearest to the election manifesto. Every President has one. However that dream got whittled and what was, after a certain amount of compromises, push out was this,

http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=31851

How come this all the way from the blueprint? Because a bill is passes not by the WH but by the house and the senate. GoP will not let most of the programs in the doc you have linked to go any further in the house or senate (especially the latin american aspects of it) without strict controls and punishments established in the first place. Similarly, Rep.Ryan has a blueprint after compromises with Norquist that says over the next 50 years they will abolish all taxes - yes, all taxes. Because in 1800s immigrants from Ireland and Germany came to the US because the land was cheap and the taxes were nonexistent. So all those blueprints are mere 'dream'prints.

[kkruna]

So what was the holding point in Dems not supporting this?

It appears the Dems are mainly interested in proposals related to Hispanics. Though they are paying lip service to the Lottery Visa, they actually want some visa apportioned to 'family reunification'. They obviously prioritize these above the STEM and Employment visa. You can see this reflected in all the docs and, I think, it will be reflected in their future proposals as well. They prefer Social rationale over Economic one.

[chengisk]

They prefer Social rationale over Economic one.

That's right. And the democrats have done that for over decades now. I am also miffed that they nixed Smith's bill over the DV and want to go with a 2-year pilot program with 110k new visas (and that not budging anyplace and is going to be lobbied down and RiP'd). Well Democrats are not that pro business and often will look at the social benefit than a economic one. In fact, a few days back Sen. Reid pointedly told GOP not to table any bill with an addendum 'the chamber of commerce supports this bill'. That would include H.R.3012 which was also lobbied by USCoC. A very sad state of affairs on the hill. But bashing the president is not appropriate here. Just my belief that such bashings are misplaced.

[immitime]

Thanks immitime. Appreciate your detailed reply. However, I believe where we are differing is in the document we are citing. You are linking to a document which is a Whitehouse dream, nearest to the election manifesto. Every President has one. However that dream got whittled and what was, after a certain amount of compromises, push out was this,

http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=31851

How come this all the way from the blueprint? Because a bill is passes not by the WH but by the house and the senate. GoP will not let most of the programs in the doc you have linked to go any further in the house or senate (especially the latin american aspects of it) without strict controls and punishments established in the first place. Similarly, Rep.Ryan has a blueprint after compromises with Norquist that says over the next 50 years they will abolish all taxes - yes, all taxes. Because in 1800s immigrants from Ireland and Germany came to the US because the land was cheap and the taxes were nonexistent. So all those blueprints are mere 'dream'prints.

People will be more convinced if you can present the real proposed bill. Instead of this greedy attorney organisations docids.:D. No value for this AILA document, may be these are all AILA dreams ;) to keep Legal immigrants on their fee role and make them suffer for their $$$$.

[A_Tech_Softie]

To put it simply, unless "STEM" or IC Vote-Block doesn't back these proposals, no politician is going to take those forward. Simply because it is a 5 year turn-around after Green Card is approved for the people to start voting - thats too long for politics.
Bottom line: What is the gain in cleaning up a problem?? Very few Politicians have a personal passion for reforming immigration.

[qesehmk]

kkruna - you are right. The state dept that controls these visas - prefers political rationale over either. The country quotas, diversity visa and refugee visas are all geopolitical tools. I am utterly surprised they let go diversity visas which makes doing away with country quota more difficult.


They prefer Social rationale over Economic one.

[gs1968]

The Senate vote for the continuing resolution has been moved up to 1130PM tonight from 1AM. Wouldn't it be great if HR3012 sneaks through in the early hours of the morning when the Senators are barely awake? It would be exactly one year to the day (9/22) from the date of introduction by Rep. Chaffetz

[immitime]

The Senate vote for the continuing resolution has been moved up to 1130PM tonight from 1AM. Wouldn't it be great if HR3012 sneaks through in the early hours of the morning when the Senators are barely awake? It would be exactly one year to the day (9/22) from the date of introduction by Rep. Chaffetz

Lets all wait for the good news soon.. Who knows how, when and where this bill is taken.. this bill always gives surprised....Praying for all.

[rupen86]

The Senate vote for the continuing resolution has been moved up to 1130PM tonight from 1AM. Wouldn't it be great if HR3012 sneaks through in the early hours of the morning when the Senators are barely awake? It would be exactly one year to the day (9/22) from the date of introduction by Rep. Chaffetz

If that does happen, I would start believing in miracles!!

[rupen86]

From Ron,

"I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that I heard correctly this morning that Congress is about to recess and that they are giving up on the farm bill and the transportation bill until after the election. If so, then that's all folks. If they shut down now, they will have at least five major legislative items to deal with in the lame duck session and there won't be time for anything else. "

[immitime]

From Ron,

"I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that I heard correctly this morning that Congress is about to recess and that they are giving up on the farm bill and the transportation bill until after the election. If so, then that's all folks. If they shut down now, they will have at least five major legislative items to deal with in the lame duck session and there won't be time for anything else. "

Really this Attorney Ron Gotcher became totally anti EB immigrant now, he is one of the Chela of AILA, and he along with a bunch of ROW guys are polluting his forum. Never ever believe whatever an attorney says.

Until the Grassley's amendment added, Ron was all for H.R. 3012 as soon as the amendment added he turned 360 degree, refer his past emails in his forum if it is not deleted!

Ron was predicting Visa movements from Year 2005 onwards, I always noticed all his predictions are mere speculation and false. Ron, Murthy, OH law frim every one in same boat.

[abcx13]

Until the Grassley's amendment added, Ron was all for H.R. 3012 as soon as the amendment added he turned 360 degree, refer his past emails in his forum if it is not deleted!

Ron was predicting Visa movements from Year 2005 onwards, I always noticed all his predictions are mere speculation and false. Ron, Murthy, OH law frim every one in same boat.Agreed. Ron was for the Grassley amendment until AILA started lobbying against it.

[Ramsen]

When HR3012 was introduced everyone including AILA and ** lobbied on it. But when ** went alone for negotiating with Grassley the divison started. ** still had chance to maintain good relationship with them. But they attacked directly in the forum and isolated from them. That might have been avoided and ** might have handled differently. Ron was always did not like HR 3012 in the current form. Though he supported HR 3012 still he preferred recapture plus country quota removal. Also Attourneys cannot rely on one country and they have clients from all over the world. So they cannot support just one country as there were so many concerns from many countries. Now ** was isolated completely. Corporations are supporting but they have no reason to push this bill by going out of the way. Actually it nice to have for Corporations. Predictions of VB is always speculative as no one has right data. So we cannot blame Ron


Agreed. Ron was for the Grassley amendment until AILA started lobbying against it.

[A_Tech_Softie]

Until the Grassley's amendment added, Ron was all for H.R. 3012 as soon as the amendment added he turned 360 degree

Agree with you there. Except a minor point: Turning 360 is exactly same direction! :)

[rupen86]

When HR3012 was introduced everyone including AILA and ** lobbied on it. But when ** went alone for negotiating with Grassley the divison started. ** still had chance to maintain good relationship with them. But they attacked directly in the forum and isolated from them. That might have been avoided and ** might have handled differently. Ron was always did not like HR 3012 in the current form. Though he supported HR 3012 still he preferred recapture plus country quota removal. Also Attourneys cannot rely on one country and they have clients from all over the world. So they cannot support just one country as there were so many concerns from many countries. Now ** was isolated completely. Corporations are supporting but they have no reason to push this bill by going out of the way. Actually it nice to have for Corporations. Predictions of VB is always speculative as no one has right data. So we cannot blame Ron

good analysis

[rupen86]

There were number of bills taken up yesterday night for unanimous consent but HR 3012 was not part of it. Now, we have to set our eyes on lame duck session which is already crowded with many other bills.

[redsox2009]

There were number of bills taken up yesterday night for unanimous consent but HR 3012 was not part of it. Now, we have to set our eyes on lame duck session which is already crowded with many other bills.



I see only four bills passed yesterday.

[justvisiting]

I see only four bills passed yesterday.

http://democrats.senate.gov/2012/09/22/senate-floor-wrap-up-for-friday-september-21-and-saturday-september-22-2012/

I lost count. There were many many bills passed.

[gs1968]

To justvisiting
I was really hoping that it would be included yesterday.There is usually a frenzy at the end of sessions and Bills that are non-controversial are rushed through.We have had a few such sessions after the hold was lifted-one before the 4th of July,one before the summer recess and one yesterday.There is something in the Bill that is not acceptable to one or more Senators otherwise this would have passed a long time ago.Also what is strange is that if the House Bill is not acceptable in its current form as far as country caps are concerned-no attempt is being made to modify the House Bill or its Senate equivalent to provide at least some relief. Rupen86 is still holding out hope for the lame duck session but it is becoming hard to see a way forward for this as the composition of the Senate remains the same

I think the AILA has played a significant role.Lawyers constitute one of the Democratic party's largest and most reliable donor bases and their pockets are deep. I also came across this post from a lawyer website and the paragraph towards the end on 3012 clearly states their reservations about the provisions

http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/20559/democrat-vs-republican-immigration-platforms

Like John Kerry in 2004 the AILA was "for it before they were against it"

[devi_pd]

Even when AILA was supporting the bill, it was not going anywhere. AILA supported several bills in the past. None passed in the last 10 years. I think the main reason we are not seeing any action is because some people really do not want too many Indians here and they are going to make to it very difficult for Indians to settle down here.

[rupen86]

To justvisiting
I was really hoping that it would be included yesterday.There is usually a frenzy at the end of sessions and Bills that are non-controversial are rushed through.We have had a few such sessions after the hold was lifted-one before the 4th of July,one before the summer recess and one yesterday.There is something in the Bill that is not acceptable to one or more Senators otherwise this would have passed a long time ago.Also what is strange is that if the House Bill is not acceptable in its current form as far as country caps are concerned-no attempt is being made to modify the House Bill or its Senate equivalent to provide at least some relief. Rupen86 is still holding out hope for the lame duck session but it is becoming hard to see a way forward for this as the composition of the Senate remains the same

I think the AILA has played a significant role.Lawyers constitute one of the Democratic party's largest and most reliable donor bases and their pockets are deep. I also came across this post from a lawyer website and the paragraph towards the end on 3012 clearly states their reservations about the provisions

http://www.metrocorpcounsel.com/articles/20559/democrat-vs-republican-immigration-platforms

Like John Kerry in 2004 the AILA was "for it before they were against it"

It seems like only way this bill would pass would be through unanimous consent. Cloture won't be used even if there are 60 votes. It is hard to imagine that 60 votes won't be available for this bill. So, ** and other parties negotiated with Grassley for a year and at the end of it looks like someone else has a problem. So this way, it would take 100 years for pass this bill (one year per senator).

PS: I am not optimistic about lame duck or for that matter any other session. I think this bill now needs support of a bigger bill. It can not pass as a standalone bill.

[Jonty Rhodes]

It seems like only way this bill would pass would be through unanimous consent. Cloture won't be used even if there are 60 votes. It is hard to imagine that 60 votes won't be available for this bill. So, ** and other parties negotiated with Grassley for a year and at the end of it looks like someone else has a problem. So this way, it would take 100 years for pass this bill (one year per senator).

PS: I am not optimistic about lame duck or for that matter any other session. I think this bill now needs support of a bigger bill. It can not pass as a standalone bill.

Rupen, that's what I said in some of my previous posts also that I also don't have any hopes on lame duck session. I also think that this bill will not go anywhere as a stand alone bill and its provisions have to be a part of a larger immigration bill and may be even CIR.

I have said this before and I will say this again. If this bill or its provision have to see the light of day, in its original form or as a part of the bigger bill or CIR, it will only happen if BO gets reelected with majority. CIR was one of BO's main election agenda and he and other Democrats shall make every effort to pass it. We saw an executive order earlier in this regards and CIR becomes important, especially when Latinos are still supporting him wholeheartedly despite his administration deporting maximum number of illegals in last 4 years. That's the only hope I see. I am not a fan of BO neither I am a Democrat by nature and principles. I am more right-leaning but I am trying to be realistic. I have less hopes on Republicans doing any kind of immigration reform. Have you ever heard Mitt Romney laying out his ideas on immigration or what he wants to do with it except some loose talks? Republicans are usually more pro-legal immigration but many people from their own party are hard core anti-immigrants, which include people like Grassley also, and they are the one who do not let anything related to immigration pass the Congress. Democrats on the other hand will not touch legal immigration alone without including illegal immigration with it but at least, we know that if CIR is to happen, it will only happen with BO in office.

We shall see what future has for all of us. These are testing times.

[rupen86]

Rupen, that's what I said in some of my previous posts also that I also don't have any hopes on lame duck session. I also think that this bill will not go anywhere as a stand alone bill and its provisions have to be a part of a larger immigration bill and may be even CIR.

I have said this before and I will say this again. If this bill or its provision have to see the light of day, in its original form or as a part of the bigger bill or CIR, it will only happen if BO gets reelected with majority. CIR was one of BO's main election agenda and he and other Democrats shall make every effort to pass it. We saw an executive order earlier in this regards and CIR becomes important, especially when Latinos are still supporting him wholeheartedly despite his administration deporting maximum number of illegals in last 4 years. That's the only hope I see. I am not a fan of BO neither I am a Democrat by nature and principles. I am more right-leaning but I am trying to be realistic. I have less hopes on Republicans doing any kind of immigration reform. Have you ever heard Mitt Romney laying out his ideas on immigration or what he wants to do with it except some loose talks? Republicans are usually more pro-legal immigration but many people from their own party are hard core anti-immigrants, which include people like Grassley also, and they are the one who do not let anything related to immigration pass the Congress. Democrats on the other hand will not touch legal immigration alone without including illegal immigration with it but at least, we know that if CIR is to happen, it will only happen with BO in office.

We shall see what future has for all of us. These are testing times.

If CIR has to happen, democrats need majority both in house and senate. Senate seems a possibility but getting majority in the house does not seem possible. The most likely scenario that I see after November is status quo. BO is president, democrats have senate and republicans have house. I do not see how CIR can pass in this set up.

[justvisiting]

If CIR has to happen, democrats need majority both in house and senate. Senate seems a possibility but getting majority in the house does not seem possible. The most likely scenario that I see after November is status quo. BO is president, democrats have senate and republicans have house. I do not see how CIR can pass in this set up.

Obama voted for the "poison pill" amendment that killed CIR in 2007. I can't trust him on this.

[Ramsen]

That may be undisclosed reason and ** must have aware of that.But they want to fight the tide and win over it by making large crowd and by background lobbying. I am certain that some persons in ** knew why the bill is stalled but not disclosing for obvious reasons. AILA also indicated they are not happy with Grassley amendment and also wants to change phase out role. Though in public they are supporting HR 3012 there may be a deep divison as some lawyers may not want become enemies of ROW. Row is big market for them compared to India. Infact china also does not support much as their PD is still reasonable compared to India and their H1b numbers are less ever year. I think best thing will be if the bill is going nowhere it is better to drop it next year and go for some relief like increasing country quota.
Even when AILA was supporting the bill, it was not going anywhere. AILA supported several bills in the past. None passed in the last 10 years. I think the main reason we are not seeing any action is because some people really do not want too many Indians here and they are going to make to it very difficult for Indians to settle down here.

[rupen86]

That may be undisclosed reason and ** must have aware of that.But they want to fight the tide and win over it by making large crowd and by background lobbying. I am certain that some persons in ** knew why the bill is stalled but not disclosing for obvious reasons. AILA also indicated they are not happy with Grassley amendment and also wants to change phase out role. Though in public they are supporting HR 3012 there may be a deep divison as some lawyers may not want become enemies of ROW. Row is big market for them compared to India. Infact china also does not support much as their PD is still reasonable compared to India and their H1b numbers are less ever year. I think best thing will be if the bill is going nowhere it is better to drop it next year and go for some relief like increasing country quota.

I did not exactly understand what you are indicating here. I think you are suggesting that bill is stalled because of ALIA and ROW. But the solution that you are giving of increasing country quota is not going to do anything good here as Grassley won't be satisfied just with that. His main intention is to put painful restrictions on H1b. The only solution that I see is the will at upper level to invoke cloture. I think the ** approach of satisfying individual senators is not effective one. That seems endless to me as you can not satisfy each and every senator. If instead ** had worked towards a way where they would have persuaded Reid to invoke cloture instead of persuading Grassley, this bill would have passed without Grassley's amendments.

[Ramsen]

AILA and ROW is one of the reason. We can put other words. AILA did not push it after Grassley amendment. For them it is just nice to have after Grassley amendment. But I think Senators in the leadership not having interest to pass the bill. The reason would have Republicans might not be interested in family based quota increase but if they tell that will have impact in the election. But some or many senators might have thought that if HR 3012 is passed there will be overcrowding of Indians in high skilled immigration and do you think Europeans,Isrelies will wait for 10 years to get green card. They do not have catalyst to wait 10 years and come here and they have better opportunity in their countries. Anyhow if it is not passed this year next year it is more difficult and also ** will be more isolated as they got impression that they are working just for Indians. How many persons in China participated in rally or other action items for HR 3012. For china also HR 3012 is nice to have. Actually diversity in immigration was there very long time if you see the history of immigration. It is not easy to change.

[QUOTE=rupen86;30213]I did not exactly understand what you are indicating here. I think you are suggesting that bill is stalled because of ALIA and ROW.

[rupen86]

AILA and ROW is one of the reason. We can put other words. AILA did not push it after Grassley amendment. For them it is just nice to have after Grassley amendment. But I think Senators in the leadership not having interest to pass the bill. The reason would have Republicans might not be interested in family based quota increase but if they tell that will have impact in the election. But some or many senators might have thought that if HR 3012 is passed there will be overcrowding of Indians in high skilled immigration and do you think Europeans,Isrelies will wait for 10 years to get green card. They do not have catalyst to wait 10 years and come here and they have better opportunity in their countries. Anyhow if it is not passed this year next year it is more difficult and also ** will be more isolated as they got impression that they are working just for Indians. How many persons in China participated in rally or other action items for HR 3012. For china also HR 3012 is nice to have. Actually diversity in immigration was there very long time if you see the history of immigration. It is not easy to change.

[QUOTE=rupen86;30213]I did not exactly understand what you are indicating here. I think you are suggesting that bill is stalled because of ALIA and ROW.

It is hard to imagine that house republicans and senate republicans would have so diverse views considering the fact that bill passed with so much overwhelming republican majority and house has more tea-party candidates than senate. I think the problem lies with the senate procedure of "hold" and wanting to pass the bill with "unanimous consent".

[immitime]

AILA and ROW is one of the reason. We can put other words. AILA did not push it after Grassley amendment. For them it is just nice to have after Grassley amendment. But I think Senators in the leadership not having interest to pass the bill. The reason would have Republicans might not be interested in family based quota increase but if they tell that will have impact in the election. But some or many senators might have thought that if HR 3012 is passed there will be overcrowding of Indians in high skilled immigration and do you think Europeans,Isrelies will wait for 10 years to get green card. They do not have catalyst to wait 10 years and come here and they have better opportunity in their countries. Anyhow if it is not passed this year next year it is more difficult and also ** will be more isolated as they got impression that they are working just for Indians. How many persons in China participated in rally or other action items for HR 3012. For china also HR 3012 is nice to have. Actually diversity in immigration was there very long time if you see the history of immigration. It is not easy to change.

[QUOTE=rupen86;30213]I did not exactly understand what you are indicating here. I think you are suggesting that bill is stalled because of ALIA and ROW.

Q, watchout lot of Attorney's and ROW guys here infiltrated and advocating almost against H.R.3012. Attorney's have made enough money, here lot of immigrant families and dependents are waiting. Business of Attorneys can stop.. This bill will be passed before December 2012, there is no doubt about it.

[qesehmk]

immitime - I don't think HR3012 does anything to attorney's business. Because HR3012 is a zero sum game. It reduces chronic pain for IC and creates a FIFO system that brings everybody within a category on the same wait time. So if IC business is gone, ROW will come in. So I do not see why attorneys should be opposed to it.

I haven't followed AILA and ROW folks quite well. But I think IC folks need to learn to respect others' opinions. We shouldn't villify somebody just because they have a different opinion.

EB-IC folks have such a strong case to make for HR3012 - both economic as well as one based on the principles of what is JUST. However the real sad story is that it is a bill that A created and then B opposed and then C hijacked saying its their bill and D is neutral and E is opposed.

So essentially a wonderful bill that actually does have strong legitimate reasons why it should get passed doesn't really have the necessary leadership from immigrant community.

My 2 cents - if you are passionate - take action on your own - make a case - use this (or any other) forum - organize people and talk intelligently as future stakeholders in the American society - not just as victims of current immigration system. And mind you - "leadership" does mean taking everybody together - so that includes ROW. IC folks need to work with them - not against.

p.s. - I apologize if you think I am condescending or critical of IC. That's not my intention especially since I have gone through the same hell you guys are experiencing.

Q, watchout lot of Attorney's and ROW guys here infiltrated and advocating almost against H.R.3012. Attorney's have made enough money, here lot of immigrant families and dependents are waiting. Business of Attorneys can stop.. This bill will be passed before December 2012, there is no doubt about it.

[cbpds1]

Well said Q, back to agreeing with u after some time :)

The real question is why did Harry Reid not table it?


immitime - I don't think HR3012 does anything to attorney's business. Because HR3012 is a zero sum game. It reduces chronic pain for IC and creates a FIFO system that brings everybody within a category on the same wait time. So if IC business is gone, ROW will come in. So I do not see why attorneys should be opposed to it.

I haven't followed AILA and ROW folks quite well. But I think IC folks need to learn to respect others' opinions. We shouldn't villify somebody just because they have a different opinion.

EB-IC folks have such a strong case to make for HR3012 - both economic as well as one based on the principles of what is JUST. However the real sad story is that it is a bill that A created and then B opposed and then C hijacked saying its their bill and D is neutral and E is opposed.

So essentially a wonderful bill that actually does have strong legitimate reasons why it should get passed doesn't really have the necessary leadership from immigrant community.

My 2 cents - if you are passionate - take action on your own - make a case - use this (or any other) forum - organize people and talk intelligently as future stakeholders in the American society - not just as victims of current immigration system. And mind you - "leadership" does mean taking everybody together - so that includes ROW. IC folks need to work with them - not against.

p.s. - I apologize if you think I am condescending or critical of IC. That's not my intention especially since I have gone through the same hell you guys are experiencing.

[gcq]

ROW guys on the other forum would like to think that their activities is what stalled the bill. Not true. Their concerns were never taken into account during the lifetime of this bill and will never be taken.

ROW guys have no valid argument against HR 3012.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Q, watchout lot of Attorney's and ROW guys here infiltrated and advocating almost against H.R.3012. Attorney's have made enough money, here lot of immigrant families and dependents are waiting. Business of Attorneys can stop.. This bill will be passed before December 2012, there is no doubt about it.

Immi, from my part, I'd welcome lawyers or ROwers to contribute to this forum. While it has defacto become an EB2I (and to a lesser extent EB3I) forum, there's no reason why ROW shouldn't be a part of the discussion too. From the perspective of predicting future VBs, when dates move past July 2007, EB3ROW is going to be as opaque as EB2I has been for a while, and in need of the same clarity. So, from my perspective, there isn't any need for folks to 'infiltrate' here.

Also, Ramsen hasn't outwardly stated yet if he's ROW or EBI, so we can't accuse him of infiltration. In any case his posts have been generally well-argued, so I welcome him here even if i disagree with some of the points he makes. Still, even if he were a ROWer 'posing' as EB2I or EB3I, that would be prerogative, and perhaps a failure on our part to display our willingness to engage ROWers in a discussion.

[immitime]

immitime - I don't think HR3012 does anything to attorney's business. Because HR3012 is a zero sum game. It reduces chronic pain for IC and creates a FIFO system that brings everybody within a category on the same wait time. So if IC business is gone, ROW will come in. So I do not see why attorneys should be opposed to it.

I haven't followed AILA and ROW folks quite well. But I think IC folks need to learn to respect others' opinions. We shouldn't villify somebody just because they have a different opinion.

EB-IC folks have such a strong case to make for HR3012 - both economic as well as one based on the principles of what is JUST. However the real sad story is that it is a bill that A created and then B opposed and then C hijacked saying its their bill and D is neutral and E is opposed.

So essentially a wonderful bill that actually does have strong legitimate reasons why it should get passed doesn't really have the necessary leadership from immigrant community.

My 2 cents - if you are passionate - take action on your own - make a case - use this (or any other) forum - organize people and talk intelligently as future stakeholders in the American society - not just as victims of current immigration system. And mind you - "leadership" does mean taking everybody together - so that includes ROW. IC folks need to work with them - not against.

p.s. - I apologize if you think I am condescending or critical of IC. That's not my intention especially since I have gone through the same hell you guys are experiencing.

Q, your point of uniting everybody (the whole EB community) is well taken, The only solution for that is Visa Recapture. But people/party in power do not want to do that.(lot of facts, like economy,unemployment etc, eventhough it won't harm to recapture, but for the sake of votes and porpaganda that is what it is) They won't support any type of Legal immigration.

Leadership also means, knowing (especially nowadays,) who is putting hole on the Dam!. In the name of uniting we cannot become victims ourselves, to certian greedy attorneys, and other who is Anti

But H.R.3012 still is a bill on Senate calendar, after elections we need to see what happens. Sen. Reid never taken initiative to take this bill because BO will be questioned in debates when he accuses the other party that they won't co-operate and Washington is stuck. Republicans have H.R.3012 to show that bipartisan works!!! if this bill have passed the senate, that is the only reason.

[rupen86]

Well said Q, back to agreeing with u after some time :)

The real question is why did Harry Reid not table it?

As per my understanding, Reid is never interested in the piecemeal approach for immigration. He is interested in CIR which is mainly for illegal people which will include something for legal immigration. So, if the bill passes by itself, he would not object to it but he would not make effort on his own to invoke cloture.

[rupen86]

Q, your point of uniting everybody (the whole EB community) is well taken, The only solution for that is Visa Recapture. But people/party in power do not want to do that.(lot of facts, like economy,unemployment etc, eventhough it won't harm to recapture, but for the sake of votes and porpaganda that is what it is) They won't support any type of Legal immigration.

Leadership also means, knowing (especially nowadays,) who is putting whole on the Dam!. In the name of uniting we cannot become victims ourselves, to certian greedy attorneys, and other who is Anti

But H.R.3012 still is a bill on Senate calendar, after elections we need to see what happens. Sen. Reid never taken initiative to take this bill because BO will be questioned in debates when he accuses the other party that they won't co-operate and Washington is stuck. Republicans have H.R.3012 to show that bipartisan works!!! if this bill have passed the senate, that is the only reason.

I do not agree with the logic of election year politics for not passing the bill. As I have said in the earlier posts, if that was the reason, democrats would simply not have negotiated with Grassley which would have not have allowed the bill to lift its head. The most logical reason seems to be like after Grassley lifted his hold some new objections from other senators might have come in which could be related to Grassley's amendments or something different. We do not know who those senators are and what their real reasons are. But the main problem is that Cloture option is not pursued. That is the only way I see that bill would pass.

PS: If ROW guys do not have influence to stop the bill, then there is no need to persuade them for the bill and I do not know how to persuade them either because this bill is against them and not in favor of them. People in general are selfish and they won't sacrifice their self interest even though that would mean justice to other people.

[immitime]

Immi, from my part, I'd welcome lawyers or ROwers to contribute to this forum. While it has defacto become an EB2I (and to a lesser extent EB3I) forum, there's no reason why ROW shouldn't be a part of the discussion too. From the perspective of predicting future VBs, when dates move past July 2007, EB3ROW is going to be as opaque as EB2I has been for a while, and in need of the same clarity. So, from my perspective, there isn't any need for folks to 'infiltrate' here. That said, I do think Ramsen's arguments have been a little incoherent and his motives appear a little suspect. I'm referring to his stated position of being for HR3012 while making tangential arguments that appear to argue against it. Still, if he is infact a ROWer 'posing' as EB2I or EB3I, that's his prerogative, and perhaps a failure on our part to display our willingness to engage ROWers in a discussion.

Pedro,

As you rightly said

"Ramsen's arguments have been a little incoherent and his motives appear a little suspect. I'm referring to his stated position of being for HR3012 while making tangential arguments that appear to argue against it. Still, if he is infact a ROWer 'posing' as EB2I or EB3I, that's his prerogative"

That was the only thing I was referring to. That does not sound we should not unite our community.:-)

[immitime]

I do not agree with the logic of election year politics for not passing the bill. As I have said in the earlier posts, if that was the reason, democrats would simply not have negotiated with Grassley which would have not have allowed the bill to lift its head. The most logical reason seems to be like after Grassley lifted his hold some new objections from other senators might have come in which could be related to Grassley's amendments or something different. We do not know who those senators are and what their real reasons are. But the main problem is that Cloture option is not pursued. That is the only way I see that bill would pass.

PS: If ROW guys do not have influence to stop the bill, then there is no need to persuade them for the bill and I do not know how to persuade them either because this bill is against them and not in favor of them. People in general are selfish and they won't sacrifice their self interest even though that would mean justice to other people.

Still do not understand if Illegal youngsters can have EAD or path to citizenship with out any legislation, what is stopping BO to issue an order to recaputre the lost visa numbers due to non-working USCIS!. No votes from us soon! they still need to wait 5 more years. That is the only reason. And other Indian origins as soon as they become citizens, they have no concerns about their country or country men.

[Ramsen]

Reid never made statement about HR 3012. Schumer showed lot of interest. So no one knew whether Reid is opposing or favoring the bill. Without knowing his intention it is difficult to predict the bill. So we have to really wait and see for Lame Duck. ** is still positive about the bill. They may have basis for that.

As per my understanding, Reid is never interested in the piecemeal approach for immigration. He is interested in CIR which is mainly for illegal people which will include something for legal immigration. So, if the bill passes by itself, he would not object to it but he would not make effort on his own to invoke cloture.

[rupen86]

Still do not understand if Illegal youngsters can have EAD or path to citizenship with out any legislation, what is stopping BO to issue an order to recaputre the lost visa numbers due to non-working USCIS!. No votes from us soon! they still need to wait 5 more years. That is the only reason. And other Indian origins as soon as they become citizens, they have no concerns about their country or country men.

As it stands now, illegal people would have EAD but not path to citizenship. The reason for doing Executive order for illegal is because that is vote booster among Hispanic people. Seems they care about their fellow citizens when something is done to help them. Doing something about legal immigration would be to help Indian/Chinese. They have very small influence in terms of votes and seems these communities do not care whether H1 people get Green card or not. They are busy and happy in their own lives and do not care about H1s.

[gs1968]

I may sound like a citizen of fantasyland but I think the tight Senate race in Massachusetts is exerting an influence on the dynamics of this Bill.The Democrats negotiated with Sen.Grassley and the Republicans to let the Irish provisions move forward but are reluctant to bring it to the floor now as its passage may allow Sen.Scott Brown to claim at the least partial credit for the Bill. Once the elections are over there is no such pressure and the Democrats can bring the Irish provisions to the Senate floor and along with HR 3012 the Bill will pass smoothly.

[rupen86]

I may sound like a citizen of fantasyland but I think the tight Senate race in Massachusetts is exerting an influence on the dynamics of this Bill.The Democrats negotiated with Sen.Grassley and the Republicans to let the Irish provisions move forward but are reluctant to bring it to the floor now as its passage may allow Sen.Scott Brown to claim at the least partial credit for the Bill. Once the elections are over there is no such pressure and the Democrats can bring the Irish provisions to the Senate floor and along with HR 3012 the Bill will pass smoothly.

Can't they just pass 3012 now and Irish provision after election ?

[immitime]

Can't they just pass 3012 now and Irish provision after election ?

Now its too late to pass H.R.3012,;) because senate is on recess until Nov 13th 2012(after elections) Irish Provision was one of the concern for Sen Grassley, so they may not mix up these two again. But in Politicks or tricks anything can happen.

[gs1968]

To rupen86
The Democrats hold the upper hand in the Senate and will need to see the E-3 provisions clear first before the HR 3012 is voted on. My theory is not without its pitfalls though.We already know via Irish Central about Sens.Vitter & Sessions about their objections to the Irish provisions and although the vote on the Bill itself is up or down simple majority without the 60 vote affirmative threshold they can still block the motion to bring it to the Floor.Also no information from the House about their opinion on the Irish provisions.As far as I know there has been no attempt from either side to propose a companion Bill in the House

[rupen86]

To rupen86
The Democrats hold the upper hand in the Senate and will need to see the E-3 provisions clear first before the HR 3012 is voted on. My theory is not without its pitfalls though.We already know via Irish Central about Sens.Vitter & Sessions about their objections to the Irish provisions and although the vote on the Bill itself is up or down simple majority without the 60 vote affirmative threshold they can still block the motion to bring it to the Floor.Also no information from the House about their opinion on the Irish provisions.As far as I know there has been no attempt from either side to propose a companion Bill in the House

This theory does not hold well though. Democrats already know that passing E-3 in house is going to be challenging. So, if that does not pass the house then they won't allow 3012 to pass? Republicans are not that much in love with 3012 that they would let E-3 to pass because they want 3012 to pass.

[justvisiting]

This theory does not hold well though. Democrats already know that passing E-3 in house is going to be challenging. So, if that does not pass the house then they won't allow 3012 to pass? Republicans are not that much in love with 3012 that they would let E-3 to pass because they want 3012 to pass.

E-3 is a major obstacle to HR 3012. Schumer came up with adding the E-3 visas to 3012 to calm his Irish consitutents, worried about the bill having nothing for the Irish. There will be no 3012 without E-3. The deal reported by ** is for an up-or-down vote on the E-3. That will not happen. Harry Reid is not about to shut down the Senate for such a small bill. (Specially during the lame duck with so many pending legislation - postal bill, transportation bill, VAWA reauthorization, farm bill, taxmaggeddon, just to name a few).

[immitime]

Attorney Ron the fear mongerer this is from his website. How he wrote about H.R.3012 on Sept 20th 2012 and how he wrote on Sept 21st 2012. Just compare the exactly opposite views. so never believe this speculative guys.

Current Updates on H.R.3012 thread Source :-http://www.immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17688&page=47&p=78858&highlight=#post78858
Sept 20th 2012
I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that I heard correctly this morning that Congress is about to recess and that they are giving up on the farm bill and the transportation bill until after the election. If so, then that's all folks. If they shut down now, they will have at least five major legislative items to deal with in the lame duck session and there won't be time for anything else.

Sept 21st 2012.
The House is gone until after the election. If HR3012 is unacceptable to Grassley without his amendment, then IF it were to pass the Senate somehow, the House won't be there to vote on the amended bill. We can say with absolute certainty that HR3012 cannot be acted upon until mid-November if it is acted upon by the Congress at all.

[chengisk]

Ever since Sen.Grassley lifted his hold, Ron is gone bonkers.

[rupen86]

E-3 is a major obstacle to HR 3012. Schumer came up with adding the E-3 visas to 3012 to calm his Irish consitutents, worried about the bill having nothing for the Irish. There will be no 3012 without E-3. The deal reported by ** is for an up-or-down vote on the E-3. That will not happen. Harry Reid is not about to shut down the Senate for such a small bill. (Specially during the lame duck with so many pending legislation - postal bill, transportation bill, VAWA reauthorization, farm bill, taxmaggeddon, just to name a few).

Separating Irish provision and 3012 are very well publicized. Grassley while releasing the hold had mentioned this in the press release. The deal might be to put E-3 for up-down vote without filibuster but whether it will pass house is not clear.

[justvisiting]

Attorney Ron the fear mongerer this is from his website. How he wrote about H.R.3012 on Sept 20th 2012 and how he wrote on Sept 21st 2012. Just compare the exactly opposite views. so never believe this speculative guys.

Current Updates on H.R.3012 thread Source :-http://www.immigration-information.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17688&page=47&p=78858&highlight=#post78858
Sept 20th 2012
I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that I heard correctly this morning that Congress is about to recess and that they are giving up on the farm bill and the transportation bill until after the election. If so, then that's all folks. If they shut down now, they will have at least five major legislative items to deal with in the lame duck session and there won't be time for anything else.

Sept 21st 2012.
The House is gone until after the election. If HR3012 is unacceptable to Grassley without his amendment, then IF it were to pass the Senate somehow, the House won't be there to vote on the amended bill. We can say with absolute certainty that HR3012 cannot be acted upon until mid-November if it is acted upon by the Congress at all.

I'm sorry but I fail to see the contradiction between those two posts. The first one is talking about how busy the lame duck will be. The second simply pointed out that the House had left and if the Senate were to pass an amended bill, there is no House to receive it until November.

[gs1968]

To rupen86

The last paragraph of his press release states thus-

"I appreciate the willingness of other members to work with me to include measures that will help us combat visa fraud, and ultimately protect more American workers. I look forward to working with others as H.R. 3012 progresses in the Senate.

Is this supposed to mean that it is no quick unanimous consent but open the Bill to more amendments from other Senators?

[rupen86]

To rupen86

The last paragraph of his press release states thus-

"I appreciate the willingness of other members to work with me to include measures that will help us combat visa fraud, and ultimately protect more American workers. I look forward to working with others as H.R. 3012 progresses in the Senate.

Is this supposed to mean that it is no quick unanimous consent but open the Bill to more amendments from other Senators?

From that sentence, we can assume that. That being the case then this bill would be a punching bag where everyone can punch and put their amendments (which they otherwise could not have passed on their own merit).

[immitime]

I'm sorry but I fail to see the contradiction between those two posts. The first one is talking about how busy the lame duck will be. The second simply pointed out that the House had left and if the Senate were to pass an amended bill, there is no House to receive it until November.

Read the below sentence that means there is no time for H.R.3012 or any other bills in lame duck session. but see the 21st postings.. Hope you got it.

If they shut down now, they will have at least five major legislative items to deal with in the lame duck session and there won't be time for anything else.

[justvisiting]

Read the below sentence that means there is no time for H.R.3012 or any other bills in lame duck session. but see the 21st postings.. Hope you got it.

If they shut down now, they will have at least five major legislative items to deal with in the lame duck session and there won't be time for anything else.

Parsing words one by one sometime makes you lose the overall meaning. I would summarize Mr. Gotcher as saying he feels it is highly unlikely (but not impossible) for HR 3012 to be taken up in the lame duck.

[rupen86]

From that sentence, we can assume that. That being the case then this bill would be a punching bag where everyone can punch and put their amendments (which they otherwise could not have passed on their own merit).

Thinking more about this, it might be in Grassley's interest to pass this bill during lame duck as he may not get another chance to pass his amendment another time. He might be negotiating with other senators to put their amendments and bring that during lame duck for a vote.

[justvisiting]

Schumer's STEM bill's text is now up: S. 3553. It is very similar to the Lofgren bill. It also extends per country caps to the new EB 6 category. There is a provision there to renew the H1-B stamp inside the US. I know this bill will not go anywhere. I do wonder why Schumer, who is the sponsor of S. 1983, adding the per-country caps?

[Ramsen]

I always suspect these senators copy the texts from previous failed bills. That should explain the inclusion country cap. If they purposfully included in the bill then that means they are interested to keep the country quota and that means HR 3012 or S 1983 is doomed.


Schumer's STEM bill's text is now up: S. 3553. It is very similar to the Lofgren bill. It also extends per country caps to the new EB 6 category. There is a provision there to renew the H1-B stamp inside the US. I know this bill will not go anywhere. I do wonder why Schumer, who is the sponsor of S. 1983, adding the per-country caps?

[rupen86]

I always suspect these senators copy the texts from previous failed bills. That should explain the inclusion country cap. If they purposfully included in the bill then that means they are interested to keep the country quota and that means HR 3012 or S 1983 is doomed.

I believe that could be because they do not want to include 3012 provisions in this. If 3012 passed, it would apply to all categories anyway.

[redsox2009]

Schumer's STEM bill's text is now up: S. 3553. It is very similar to the Lofgren bill. It also extends per country caps to the new EB 6 category. There is a provision there to renew the H1-B stamp inside the US. I know this bill will not go anywhere. I do wonder why Schumer, who is the sponsor of S. 1983, adding the per-country caps?

During Nov lameduck session S.3553 bill has more chance of passing than H.R.3012, this bill was introduced in House and Senate separately, both bills were introduced by Jud. Committee members. Bills went to jud.committee and once the committee meets, these will get cleared.

Bill S.3553 is more helpful than H.R.3012, S.3553 gives additional 55000 green cards for two years and this will reduce substantial backlogs both in EB2 and EB3, I know few people who did their masters were forced to apply under EB3 cat.

[Pedro Gonzales]

During Nov lameduck session S.3553 bill has more chance of passing than H.R.3012, this bill was introduced in House and Senate separately, both bills were introduced by Jud. Committee members. Bills went to jud.committee and once the committee meets, these will get cleared.

Bill S.3553 is more helpful than H.R.3012, S.3553 gives additional 55000 green cards for two years and this will reduce substantial backlogs both in EB2 and EB3, I know few people who did their masters were forced to apply under EB3 cat.

Negative, if you're Indian, S3553 will be far less helpful. I'm for anything that adds visas numbers for EB, but the fact is, as it is currently written, the 55,000 visa numbers will be largely used up by EB3ROW, and any benefit to EB2I and EB3I will only through spillover if any. This thread covers these issues over the last couple of pages.

[justvisiting]

Negative, if you're Indian, S3553 will be far less helpful. I'm for anything that adds visas numbers for EB, but the fact is, as it is currently written, the 55,000 visa numbers will be largely used up by EB3ROW, and any benefit to EB2I and EB3I will only through spillover if any. This thread covers these issues over the last couple of pages.

Well, the thread has not actually analized S. 3553, only the republican DV-STEM bill.

It's academic, because neither bill is likely to pass this year. However, S.3553 includes the follwoing provision, not found in the Republican bill:


(1) UNUSED VISAS- Section 203(b)(1) of such Act (8 U.S.C. 1153(b)(1)) is amended by striking `(4) and (5)' and inserting `(4), (5) and (6)'.

This means that spillover would go EB6--->EB1---->EB2

And if they add 55K visas, I assure you, there will be spillover.

So it would benefit EB2 I/C, not EB-3-ROW (Unlike the bill previously discussed).

[rupen86]

Well, the thread has not actually analized S. 3553, only the republican DV-STEM bill.

It's academic, because neither bill is likely to pass this year. However, S.3553 includes the follwoing provision, not found in the Republican bill:



This means that spillover would go EB6--->EB1---->EB2

And if they add 55K visas, I assure you, there will be spillover.

So it would benefit EB2 I/C, not EB-3-ROW (Unlike the bill previously discussed).

It is not going to be much helpful to EB3-I as HR 3012.

[Pedro Gonzales]

So it would benefit EB2 I/C, not EB-3-ROW (Unlike the bill previously discussed).

Correct me if i'm wrong, but this still applies the country caps for EB6, does it not? IF so, of the 55K visas, all but 14% (7% each for India and China) will be available first to ROW candidates with established PDs and US MS degrees (which would be folks in EB3ROW) and next to ROW candidates without established PDs but recent MSs (future EB3ROW or EB2ROW candidates). It's anybody's guess how many EB3ROW candidates have US STEM Masters degrees, but the trackitt users (that great source of credible data) claim 25% to 50%. I think that's high, but who knows? Even though the spillover will fall through to EB2 India, we'd be at the mercy of yet another spillover category. I'd label this 'potentially significant' to EB2I, nothing better.

India's 7% of the 55K will all go to EB3I folk with earlier PDs, which will provide some relief to the beleaguered masses, but nothing game-changing (instead of moving 1 week every visa bulletin, their numbers would move 2 weeks every visa bulletin).

HR3012, on the other hand, would be game changing to both EB2I and EB3I. That's my point. To the extent it still has legs, HR3012 is by far the better option for EB2I and EB3I, so that's where I'm investing my capital. Still, as I said, I will happily support any bill that adds EB visa numbers.

[abcx13]

Pedro, I still haven't seen that the bill makes applicants eligible just by virtue of the US STEM MS. Doesn't the job require a MS too as it does with EB2?

[redsox2009]

Any extra green card should be welcome..............I don't care how it comes and who benifits by that green card. End of the day we should stop complaining about who is benifiting rather than thanking for queue moving or wait period decreasing...........

[Pedro Gonzales]

Pedro, I still haven't seen that the bill makes applicants eligible just by virtue of the US STEM MS. Doesn't the job require a MS too as it does with EB2?

I have not read Schummer's bill. I read through the Republican bill a few weeks ago and I thought it only required a STEM job and a US STEM Masters. A MS job was not a requirement. So, the EB3 folk would have qualified. Again, it was a while ago, and a pretty quick read, so I may be wrong.


Any extra green card should be welcome..............I don't care how it comes and who benifits by that green card. End of the day we should stop complaining about who is benifiting rather than thanking for queue moving or wait period decreasing...........

I don't know that there were any complaints. I was just addressing a comment that one bill would be better than the other. I'll reiterate, I think both bills would be good for us.

[rupen86]

Ron on HR 3012,

"Given the hard line the Dems took on the STEM bill ("zero sum solutions are not acceptable") I think that it would be difficult for them to support HR3012 at this point. I'm pretty sure they took that position solely for the purpose of denying the Republicans any kind of win on immigration, but even so it would be difficult for them to reverse themselves immediately on HR3012.

Also, I am hearing more and more grumbling from the far right that this Congress should just punt on the fiscal cliff and let the next Congress deal with it. If that is the case, then there might not be a lame duck session at all. "

[qesehmk]

I agree with the first part that dems denied replublicans a small immigration victory.

The second part about lame duck session- I am not sure what Ron exactly means.


Ron on HR 3012,

"Given the hard line the Dems took on the STEM bill ("zero sum solutions are not acceptable") I think that it would be difficult for them to support HR3012 at this point. I'm pretty sure they took that position solely for the purpose of denying the Republicans any kind of win on immigration, but even so it would be difficult for them to reverse themselves immediately on HR3012.

Also, I am hearing more and more grumbling from the far right that this Congress should just punt on the fiscal cliff and let the next Congress deal with it. If that is the case, then there might not be a lame duck session at all. "

[rupen86]

I agree with the first part that dems denied replublicans a small immigration victory.

The second part about lame duck session- I am not sure what Ron exactly means.

I disagree with the first part where he says democrats wanted to deny small victory to republicans. I think what he is suggesting in the second part is that democrats have made the position that they won't support zero sum solution meaning taking from somewhere and giving it to someone else. In case of HR 3012, it is taking from ROW and giving to I/C. I do not agree with that logic also. And in the end, he is saying that there won't be lame duck session because some in the far right are saying to go over fiscal cliff. I disagree with that also. Even though, they do not want to arrive at any solution, they would at least show that they are working to get to some solution.

[imdeng]

My sense of the current political winds is that Republicans are going to lose (and perhaps lose big) in Nov and part of the blame will be put on their obstructionism in congress. Also they are likely to get trounced with Latinos (even more than in 2008, an Obama advantage of 75/25 is quite possible) - and if that happens then Republicans will have to start paying serious attention to immigration related issues so that they have something to talk about in 2014 and 2016. I can see common sense legislation like HR-3012 (or one of its cousins) getting through the Senate and House in a hurry in the lame duck session.

Last lame duck session (in 2010) was surprisingly productive - I am hoping for a repeat of the same.

PS> Designers of HR-3012 messed up in asking for a very aggressive roll out. A 5-6 years gradual roll out would perhaps have not attracted the kind of ROW hue-n-cry like it ended up getting.

[qesehmk]

There is really nothing to disagree with first part. It is a fact now that HR3012 won't be passed in senate - controlled by dems. Thus dems denied republicans a small immigration victory since HR3012 is republican bill. The bill was especially a no-no for dems given chaffetz is a mormon and former democrat.

Zero sum game etc is an argument just like chuck shumer created another distraction by tagging irish E3 visas on this same bill.

I don't mean to turn this into a dem bashing thing. Just trying to put things in right perspective.

I disagree with the first part where he says democrats wanted to deny small victory to republicans. I think what he is suggesting in the second part is that democrats have made the position that they won't support zero sum solution meaning taking from somewhere and giving it to someone else. In case of HR 3012, it is taking from ROW and giving to I/C. I do not agree with that logic also. And in the end, he is saying that there won't be lame duck session because some in the far right are saying to go over fiscal cliff. I disagree with that also. Even though, they do not want to arrive at any solution, they would at least show that they are working to get to some solution.

[rupen86]

There is really nothing to disagree with first part. It is a fact now that HR3012 won't be passed in senate - controlled by dems. Thus dems denied republicans a small immigration victory since HR3012 is republican bill. The bill was especially a no-no for dems given chaffetz is a mormon and former democrat.

Zero sum game etc is an argument just like chuck shumer created another distraction by tagging irish E3 visas on this same bill.

I don't mean to turn this into a dem bashing thing. Just trying to put things in right perspective.

My reason for disagreement is that if denying political victory was the reason, they did not have to do anything. Instead of putting this on calendar, Reid would have referred this to subcommittee where Grassley is a ranking member and it would have died there or Schumer would have not negotiated with Grassley at all for removing Irish E-3 from Hr 3012.

Zero Sum game argument does not apply to 3012 since it does not favor any one group in the long run. In the shorter term, it tends to benefit I/C but in the longer run, it creates level playing field for all. I do not think democrats would be opposed to this idea.

Give this, democrats do not have the will to pass standalone bill like this. Their agenda remains CIR (read illegal immigration) which could include some parts of legal immigration.