Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[jackbrown_890]

I think convincing Grassley is going to be one tough job for Chaffetz and Lee. I personally think Grassley doesn't have a clue about the EB green card system. He has just blocked the bill because it is related to immigration and he is an anti-immigrant in general. Either he will be persistent in his demand to attach his amendments for H1B or he will just try to kill the bill. This whole system of just one senator being able to put an illogical hold on the bill saying it does not protect American workers and harm the entire bill is really terrible.

Yup, i agree with you. It will be nice to have Grassley, lift the hold but he is not going to so It will be actually easy to convince either Reid to ignore d hold and proceed and take fillibuster risk (if he can do that) or find 16 senators to file cloture

[Pedro Gonzales]

There is increasing momentum by unemployed US citizen techie groups to fight this bill using the argument that it increases IT green cards and thus encourages more IT folks to apply for jobs in the US.

The argument would be disproved if we can show that Indians & Chinese do not form a larger % of IT employees than ROW. In other words, when an Indian IT applicant takes his rightful place in the queue, it is a ROW IT applicant that is being displaced and not a ROW doctor/accountant/chef. I believe the numbers that would prove/disprove this hypothesis is here:

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CasePerm.aspx

Does someone here have MS Access? If so, can you dig through and see what the numbers say?

What we need is % of IT Perms filed (or H1Bs) split amonst different countries. i.e., % of Indian PERMS that are IT related, % of Chinese PERMs that are IT related, % of all ROW PERMS that are IT related.

[gcq]

These techie groups are traditionally anti-immigrant. They are not really against workers or for American workers they are against a particular race. H1B and GC in this country is predominantly for IT workers. This is the largest pool taking advantage of this visa. So their argument that this bill increase IT folks coming to US won't fly. Why should ROW IT workers get priority over Indian/Chinese worker ? They are just workers, country of birth doesn't matter. That is the very purpose of this bill.

I reiterate my point, EB immigration doesn't discriminate between professions. A candidate is either EB1/EB2/EB3/EB4/EB5 as per immigration law. Immigration law does not care whether the applicant is an IT guy/doctor/financial analyst etc. So their argument is flawed. No need to even counter them.

Who is backing this bill ? Compete america, majority of which are comprised of Tech companies.

Pedro,
Where did you get that info about that techie group ?

[Pedro Gonzales]

Gcq, By momentum, i mean there are two separate groups that seem to be antiHR3012 for now. The note on the programmer's guild from you and a post was the first, and trackitt that led me to a blog that i'll PM you with the url of. You probably saw it already. I don't want to publish the url as I'd rather not drive additional traffic to the site.

[vizcard]

what a sh*t show ? Everyones looking out for their own agendas. No one is looking at the bigger picture. that's the problem with politics in a democracy.

[Spectator]

There is increasing momentum by unemployed US citizen techie groups to fight this bill using the argument that it increases IT green cards and thus encourages more IT folks to apply for jobs in the US.

The argument would be disproved if we can show that Indians & Chinese do not form a larger % of IT employees than ROW. In other words, when an Indian IT applicant takes his rightful place in the queue, it is a ROW IT applicant that is being displaced and not a ROW doctor/accountant/chef. I believe the numbers that would prove/disprove this hypothesis is here:

http://www.flcdatacenter.com/CasePerm.aspx

Does someone here have MS Access? If so, can you dig through and see what the numbers say?

What we need is % of IT Perms filed (or H1Bs) split amonst different countries. i.e., % of Indian PERMS that are IT related, % of Chinese PERMs that are IT related, % of all ROW PERMS that are IT related.You might not like the answer, but here you go.

These figures are for FY2010, but they are the same for FY2009 and FY2011 using US ECONOMIC SECTOR from the PERM data.

IT
CHINA --------- 2.77%
INDIA -------- 78.89%
MEXICO -------- 0.53%
PHILIPPINES --- 1.11%
ROW ---------- 16.70%
Total % ----- 100.00%

Around 2/3 of Indian PERM filings are either IT (55%) or Advanced Manufacturing (Semiconductors) (12%).

In contrast, the % of total ROW PERM filings for IT are 10.80% and for China 13.55%. Only 3.18% of Mexico's PERM filings and 6.66% of Philippines PERMs are in IT.

Other Areas:

Health Care
CHINA --------- 1.68%
INDIA -------- 21.74%
MEXICO -------- 1.05%
PHILIPPINES -- 23.82%
ROW ---------- 51.71%
Total % ----- 100.00%

Educational Services
CHINA -------- 11.21%
INDIA -------- 12.20%
MEXICO -------- 4.40%
PHILIPPINES --- 6.63%
ROW ---------- 65.56%
Total % ----- 100.00%

[jackbrown_890]

I am not n IT guy but if i am not wrong tech sector unemployment is below 4% and it is growing so there is a demand. and majority of IT is not one of the sectors like retail where you just train someone for 3 months and they can acquire all skills needed for that job.



Great Spectator: I am assuming your numbers on healthcare include nurses too.

[Jonty Rhodes]

I am not n IT guy but if i am not wrong tech sector unemployment is below 4% and it is growing so there is a demand. and majority of IT is not one of the sectors like retail where you just train someone for 3 months and they can acquire all skills needed for that job.



Great Spectator: I am assuming your numbers on healthcare include nurses too.

Sorry for replying on behalf of Spectator. I think that is correct. Philippines doesn't send lot of physicians. They mainly send nurses. Their ratio of Physicians:Nurses is 1:9. For India, it is opposite that is Physicians:Nurses, 8:2. This is not an exact number and I also don't have any data to support it but that is what a general consensus would be if you ask any Indian and Philippino physician or a nurse.

Again, this is my assessment based on my experience and my interactions with other people in health care. I could be wrong.

[Spectator]

Great Spectator: I am assuming your numbers on healthcare include nurses too.jackbrown,

That is a good question and I nearly added some comments about them.

Generally nurses will not be included for several reasons.

Primarily, nurses do not go through the PERM process because they fall under Schedule A.

When separate Schedule A visas were last available (50k recaptured), they covered PDs up to late 2005.

The usage of these visas was Philippines - 80%, India - 20% and ROW - 20%

Neither are the majority of nurses eligible for H1B, because their qualification is not considered equivalent to a Bachelors. Hence the huge number from the Philippines on the EB3 NVC waiting list.

Neither will all the Doctors be captured, since many will use the EB2-NIW route which does not require a PERM. I've never seen any figures for what % NIW is of EB2, let alone any breakdown of its usage.

Obviously that does distort the figures somewhat, but probably not in a meaningful way. Philippines would be a higher % of the Healthcare sector. The Bill doesn't really help them in the short term at all anyway.

[gcq]

Looking at Spect's statistics, it does not give an argument for ROW either.
Indians are predominantly IT folks, doctor's etc whereas ROW is mostly concentrated in Educational services ( I guess teachers etc).

IT vs educational services, that is what it boils down to.

[Jonty Rhodes]

what a sh*t show ? Everyones looking out for their own agendas. No one is looking at the bigger picture. that's the problem with politics in a democracy.

I agree. Things are slowly turning ugly. Everyone wants to take this roller coaster ride on the back of this bill with their own agenda. Indians and Chinese want to decrease their wait time and make it same for everybody. ROW do not want their wait times increased even by few months to 2 years. Latinos want DREAM act to pass. Now, Irish are joining this battle out of nowhere. We all call ourselves an immigrant community living in a globalized world and we take pride in that. But when it comes to obtaining GC, every good stuff that we speak and believe in, is thrown straight out of the window. How can any bill, regardless of how simple and how non-controversial it is, pass in this hostile environment? I have stopped going to Trekitt because the ROW has just initiated a blitzkrieg starting new threads every few minutes and there is an all out open-forum war between ROW and India. Chinese are discussing on their own separate forums. I hope ** keeps a hold of things and I wish them luck in their backdoor advocacy.

When this bill was introduced, I was really anxious about whether it will pass or not but now I think, it is even futile to get anxious over it because when everyone is trying to jump the bandwagon pursuing their own agenda and you can't do a darn thing about it, basically you don't have any other choice but to keep playing your own part and contribute to the cause as much as you can which I will keep doing. Lets hope for the best.

[gcq]

This is the least controversial bill ever. Of course ROW doesn't like it. Otherwise this bill has widespread support. For a moment consider adding recapture to this bill. Opposition will be 1000 times stronger. ROW don't realize that. In 2008 a recapture bill was introduced. We all campaigned just like the way we did for this bill. However that bill had a huge opposition though it was only a recapture bill. Organizations that ROW is running to today, opposed that bill saying it as increase in visa numbers. Ultimately that bill never passed house judiciary committee.

[Spectator]

Looking at Spect's statistics, it does not give an argument for ROW either.
Indians are predominantly IT folks, doctor's etc whereas ROW is mostly concentrated in Educational services ( I guess teachers etc).

IT vs educational services, that is what it boils down to.gcq,

Easily done, but that is not correct.

Educational Services PERMs only represent 9.94% of the total PERM Certified for all Countries.

Of those, ROW represented 51.71%.

In terms of ROW total PERM certifications, Educational Services represented 14.94%.

Whereas the top 2 sectors represented 67% of Indian PERM certifications, the top 2 sectors for ROW accounted for only 35%, so they are spread wider across the whole economy.

[immitime]

I agree. Things are slowly turning ugly. Everyone wants to take this roller coaster ride on the back of this bill with their own agenda. Indians and Chinese want to decrease their wait time and make it same for everybody. ROW do not want their wait times increased even by few months to 2 years. Latinos want DREAM act to pass. Now, Irish are joining this battle out of nowhere. We all call ourselves an immigrant community living in a globalized world and we take pride in that. But when it comes to obtaining GC, every good stuff that we speak and believe in, is thrown straight out of the window. How can any bill, regardless of how simple and how non-controversial it is, pass in this hostile environment? I have stopped going to Trekitt because the ROW has just initiated a blitzkrieg starting new threads every few minutes and there is an all out open-forum war between ROW and India. Chinese are discussing on their own separate forums. I hope ** keeps a hold of things and I wish them luck in their backdoor advocacy.

When this bill was introduced, I was really anxious about whether it will pass or not but now I think, it is even futile to get anxious over it because when everyone is trying to jump the bandwagon pursuing their own agenda and you can't do a darn thing about it, basically you don't have any other choice but to keep playing your own part and contribute to the cause as much as you can which I will keep doing. Lets hope for the best.

Any bill which is bipartisan have opposition with various interest group. This bill will be discussed in Senate Judiciary committee and will be passed for good. the very reason that opposition is more and more is, Logically if any sensible person reads the bill it is non-contoversial. So there is 90 % chance this bill will become law. may be with some amendments. Opposition makes this bill more stronger. Taking out country quota even Grassley will agree to it. if there was no hurt in him in the form of failed H1 /L1 reform bill, which was antibusiness and illogical.

[gcq]

Spect,
Despite these statistics, ROW does not have a point. As these are employer sponsored visas, demand for each field is dictated by economy. IT has the highest demand, India and China happens to have the largest pool of workers to satisfy the demand, so they provide it.

Blocking 93% visas to India and China applicants will force them to move to their home countries creating vast pool of resources there. This will force American companies to move their offices abroad. Many companies are already doing it.

[jackbrown_890]

Also talking about overall diversity, i don't buy the diversity argument. i think US should allow more Indian and Chinese people. If you consider total population of the world - Since 1 in every 3 people in this world is either Indian or Chinese (33%)...the ratio in US is no where close to that number..almost 73% people are white and total asian population is below 5% and that number includes all other asian countries. I am not saying they should match the ratio of world population...but the argument of this bill will not allow diversity, does not make sense. also, The fastest growing ethnicity in US is hispanic ..not Asian..so adding more asians for next 20-25 years thru EB actually will make it more diverse.

[jackbrown_890]

USATODAY reported about this: Interesting: I think eventually lot of new immigrants will end up like this if they don't reform immigration system:
http://www.blueseed.co/
Getting a visa to live and work in the U.S. can be hard, even for highly skilled immigrants and foreign entrepreneurs looking to start businesses. A California start-up company may have found a way to get around those time-consuming, hard-to-get visas. The company is planning to anchor a ship capable of holding 1,000 people off California's shore — far enough away to be in international waters but close enough to Silicon Valley so occupants, using easier-to-obtain tourist visas and short-term business visas, can hop a quick ferry ride to meet with tech employers and investors on shore.

Here s the full article: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-12-04/Blueseed-visa-tech-jobs-cruise-ship/51646138/1

[familyguy]

If it was that easy for a senator to hold a bill, why did republicans who are against health care bill allowed for debate? Do they have power to hold only so and so bills but not all?

[jackbrown_890]

If it was that easy for a senator to hold a bill, why did republicans who are against health care bill allowed for debate? Do they have power to hold only so and so bills but not all?

Because Reid filed Cloture at that time so there was a hold placed on Healthcare bill too back in 09
He was a majority leader back thn and he still is now....so he or someone else can file a cloture and bring it up for debate/vote if cloture is approved...

[immitime]

Nicely explained here about Fillibuster

http://thisnation.com/question/037.html

How can a filibuster be stopped?
A filibuster can be stopped when the Senate invokes cloture. This can be an arduous task in and of itself. To invoke cloture, a Senator needs to do the following:

Wait two days after a filibuster begins.
Obtain sixteen signatures on a motion to invoke cloture.
Wait another two days before the Senate can vote on cloture.
Make sure that three-fifths of the Senate (sixty Senators) vote to end debate.
Endure and additional thirty hours of debate before the final roll call vote

If Grassley is not withdrawing the hold. definitely he will try to fillibuster, then the only solution is above.

[narendarrao]

I don't think diversity argument should apply to EB immigration. If i have a company, i know for certain that i will not think of hiring a German or Australian etc because i have recruited an India, Chinese etc. Instead I will look for an individual who can fit into the position(whatever nation he belongs to). If diversity is the case, then why do they have Diversity lottery every year. They can simply remove them and give those to EB.

[vizcard]

I don't think diversity argument should apply to EB immigration. If i have a company, i know for certain that i will not think of hiring a German or Australian etc because i have recruited an India, Chinese etc. Instead I will look for an individual who can fit into the position(whatever nation he belongs to). If diversity is the case, then why do they have Diversity lottery every year. They can simply remove them and give those to EB.

You cannot have a company.. you don't have a GC :P ... just kidding. I'm with you though... when we go through the Labor process, they don't ask for country of nationality. It would be discrimination and grounds for a lawsuit if that was done.

[vizcard]

Also talking about overall diversity, i don't buy the diversity argument. i think US should allow more Indian and Chinese people. If you consider total population of the world - Since 1 in every 3 people in this world is either Indian or Chinese (33%)...the ratio in US is no where close to that number..almost 73% people are white and total asian population is below 5% and that number includes all other asian countries. I am not saying they should match the ratio of world population...but the argument of this bill will not allow diversity, does not make sense. also, The fastest growing ethnicity in US is hispanic ..not Asian..so adding more asians for next 20-25 years thru EB actually will make it more diverse.

Even the House of Representatives has numbers based on population in each state. How about that

[familyguy]

Thanks Jackbrown and Kanmani for taking time and explaining about cloture.

For HR 3012, I do not think cloture will be invoked as it is not of that importance. lets see though...


Family Guy

Out of 100 senators, if one Senator objects a bill, the other 99 senators support the bill, the bill can proceed after a procedure called cloture. Senate requires atleast 60 Senators' support to bring any bill for debate. Invoking Cloture is a lengthy procedure indeed.

[natvyas]

Friends

I was just watching CNN and saw an ad from FAIR and the ad talked about reducing legal immigration. This is the first ad against legal immigration that I have ever seen. This is very concerning

Regards
Nat

[immitime]

Friends

I was just watching CNN and saw an ad from FAIR and the ad talked about reducing legal immigration. This is the first ad against legal immigration that I have ever seen. This is very concerning

Regards
Nat

I do remember seeing ads regarding American Workers Protection in CNN especially from a Union in California within the last year, I do not know whether it is FAIR or someother organisation. And this is only 1 % of non-business Americans, no need to be alarmed.

[jackbrown_890]

Friends

I was just watching CNN and saw an ad from FAIR and the ad talked about reducing legal immigration. This is the first ad against legal immigration that I have ever seen. This is very concerning

Regards
Nat

As far as i have known FAIR has always been against immigration and there are few other organizations against immigration...they don't want any immigrants in this country..,,I don't think FAIR opposes this particular bill since it does not increase any visa number....they are not much concerned about 3012...i am sure if they put recapture or something like that as n amendment,, FAIR will actively oppose this bill,,

[jackbrown_890]

New action item:
so surprisingly anyone can write to Harry Reid. I thought usually senators/house reps contact forms allow on their constituents to send them emails. But good for us it seems like Reid's contact page allows anyone to send an email. So I just sent an email to Harry Reid asking him to either introduce a motion to proceed with the bill or motion to file a cloture to break filibuster. I see bunch of petitions are doing really well,, including ** s. So once you are done with signing a petition, i would request people to write to Harry Reid and request him to introduce Motion to proceed or motion to file cloture,,,,here is the contact page of Harry Reid. you never know, if Harry Reid gets lots of emails he may take matter into his own hands and try to solve it and he has got powers right now being majority leader.
http://reid.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm
BTW the reason behind writing Harry Reid. He is a majority leader in the senate and being a majority leader and he supports immigration and by being majority leader he can ignore the hold and proceed with the bill if he feels comfortable that he will get more thn 60 votes
also, i did not create any template: the reason behind that is, lot of people are signing petitions so their office is getting loads of robo- emails with the same format...so for a change if everyone writes in their own words, it would be nice. it gives a little personal touch..
thank you,

[qesehmk]

All Kwho posts moved to junk folder in case there is continued interest in that topic! Lets keep this thread clean.

[pradeep1981]

New action item:
so surprisingly anyone can write to Harry Reid. I thought usually senators/house reps contact forms allow on their constituents to send them emails........
http://reid.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm

Hi all, first post here...!

Apparently this is only for Nevadans, even though the drop-down box for the state lists all states. You are not going to get any response from the Senator unless you are from Nevada or "have ties" to the state. But hey, it never hurts to try. So, I sent out an email to the senator, but I do not expect any reply from his office.

This is what the same page states:

Regrettably, due to the volume of mail that I receive, I can only respond to mail from Nevadans or those with ties to the state. If you are not a Nevada resident, I encourage you to send a message to the Senators from your state of residence. The tradition of Senatorial courtesy calls upon Senators to give their colleagues the opportunity to assist constituents within their home states. You may want to visit http://www.senate.gov/ for a link to the websites of each member of the United States Senate.

[immitime]

Some encouraging news about Senate support for HR 3012


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-jacoby-immigration-reform-20111207,0,1002582.story

And although it has encountered some obstacles in the Senate, it has broad bipartisan support there as well.Perhaps most important, the bill could usher in a new approach to immigration reform. For a decade, the conventional wisdom among reformers has been "all or nothing." We shouldn't pass any small fixes, the thinking went, because that would take the pressure off — we'd lose the head of steam we needed to pass comprehensive reform. But this strategy has produced only stalemate.

So maybe it's time to try a different approach: not all or nothing but step by step.

As the country-cap bill shows, the key to the new model will be to start small. Reforms should focus on the legal immigration system. Both Democrats and Republicans should initiate bills. Lawmakers will have to relearn the lost art of horse-trading. Over time, small steps will build trust and confidence. And who knows — perhaps, someday, they will build momentum for bigger steps.

[vizcard]

Some encouraging news about Senate support for HR 3012


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-jacoby-immigration-reform-20111207,0,1002582.story

And although it has encountered some obstacles in the Senate, it has broad bipartisan support there as well.Perhaps most important, the bill could usher in a new approach to immigration reform. For a decade, the conventional wisdom among reformers has been "all or nothing." We shouldn't pass any small fixes, the thinking went, because that would take the pressure off — we'd lose the head of steam we needed to pass comprehensive reform. But this strategy has produced only stalemate.

So maybe it's time to try a different approach: not all or nothing but step by step.

As the country-cap bill shows, the key to the new model will be to start small. Reforms should focus on the legal immigration system. Both Democrats and Republicans should initiate bills. Lawmakers will have to relearn the lost art of horse-trading. Over time, small steps will build trust and confidence. And who knows — perhaps, someday, they will build momentum for bigger steps.

Nice but not something that hasn't been said before. Its a pro-immigration person presenting of view.

[gcq]

Don't post lawmaker feedback openly. That will hurt our cause.

[mesan123]

just wanted to understand. how it would hurt our cause. all i was trying to do was let our people no that....there are senators who want this bill to pass. i pasted only the response i for from the senator.

[gcq]

just wanted to understand. how it would hurt our cause. all i was trying to do was let our people no that....there are senators who want this bill to pass. i pasted only the response i for from the senator.
Once our opponents know the stand of a particular lawmaker, they will contact him and try to change his stand on the bill.

[mesan123]

Oh ok got it...may be i shuld hve removed the name :) ...

[vishnu]

So fair to say no movement on HR 3012 till end Jan at least? Given recess begins tomorrow?

[immitime]

So fair to say no movement on HR 3012 till end Jan at least? Given recess begins tomorrow?

Not exactly, Senate Recess is To be decided (TBD). so they may take only a day recess for Christmas!!.(not practically!) but as per the pdf schedule

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/resources/pdf/2011_calendar.pdf

[tometukuri]

USAToday reports on this new idea, but does nothing to talk about why they had come up with this idea esp. the inability to retain I/C STEM Degree holders due to country quota issue . Half baked articles like these only tend to increase the debate as to why United States need foriegn workers vs. focussing on the real issue. If you look at the comments section within the article, you will clealry notice negative energy from the public....


USATODAY reported about this: Interesting: I think eventually lot of new immigrants will end up like this if they don't reform immigration system:
http://www.blueseed.co/
Getting a visa to live and work in the U.S. can be hard, even for highly skilled immigrants and foreign entrepreneurs looking to start businesses. A California start-up company may have found a way to get around those time-consuming, hard-to-get visas. The company is planning to anchor a ship capable of holding 1,000 people off California's shore — far enough away to be in international waters but close enough to Silicon Valley so occupants, using easier-to-obtain tourist visas and short-term business visas, can hop a quick ferry ride to meet with tech employers and investors on shore.

Here s the full article: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2011-12-04/Blueseed-visa-tech-jobs-cruise-ship/51646138/1

[helpful_leo]

Somebody needs to bring in influential opinion makers into the mix.

The one guy I can think of is the NYT columnist and author Tom Friedman - he has a pro-skilled immigration outlook and is also pro-India / China. Besides, he is one of the most influential columnists in the world!

If ** or someone else approaches him, he may be amenable to writing a piece. And then, if we can ensure such an article remained on NYT's "Top 10 e-mailed articles" (as his articles often are), that I think will make a difference in DC.

[lalaji]

go to thomas most of the bills are tied to HR 3012 , is it good or bad

[lalaji]

DREAM Act and HR3012 are related bills as per Thomas

[imdeng]

I am only seeing HR-3012 related with S-1857 and the two AGREE Act bills, one Senate and one House. This is completely fine since HR-3012/S-1857 is a subset of the AGREE Act. We are fine with either of them passing in Senate. Although, AGREE has had no recent activity after the buzz it generated when it was introduced - not sure whether it is headed anywhere.


DREAM Act and HR3012 are related bills as per Thomas

[mesan123]

new from OH law firm

"H.R. 3012 in the Senate - Fading Hope for Passage Before End of Year as Senate Scramble with Last Minute Pressing Legislative Bills

Senate has been struggling with some nomination bills and it will be obsessed with the Payroll Tax Cut legislation today. There are other pressing legislations in the Senate agenda that need the full attention this year. Additionally, there is unconfirmed report that as part of the November 2012 Presidential Election Democrat strategy, Sen. Durbin may push again DREAM bill when the Congress returns next year. There is still a gleam of hope for the H.R. 3012, which may be considered difficult, if, should the last minute negotiation be worked out quickly producing the bi-partisan support in the Senate, the bill can be passed on unanimous consent. Clock keeps ticking
"

[imdeng]

One day I will have my GC - and then some day I will be a citizen and will be able to vote. I have only two choices:
1. Democrats - they are progressive and inclusive - but have never done anything for legal immigrants. Blue states in general are more tolerant and immigrant friendly to live in though.
2. Republicans - they want to deal with legal immigration - but always seems to come across as a group of racist old white dudes. I enjoy living in Upper MidWest - I have had good experiences in both East Coast and West Coast - but I can not imagine living in the deep red South (except Austin, TX).

What shitty choices for legal immigrants! Just wanted to vent.

[jackbrown_890]

One day I will have my GC - and then some day I will be a citizen and will be able to vote. I have only two choices:
1. Democrats - they are progressive and inclusive - but have never done anything for legal immigrants. Blue states in general are more tolerant and immigrant friendly to live in though.
2. Republicans - they want to deal with legal immigration - but always seems to come across as a group of racist old white dudes. I enjoy living in Upper MidWest - I have had good experiences in both East Coast and West Coast - but I can not imagine living in the deep red South (except Austin, TX).

What shitty choices for legal immigrants! Just wanted to vent.

I have lived in blue New York for few years and now i am living in South Carolina, as RED as it can get... I would say it has not been bad at all..in general people are really nice,, and awesome weather almost all around year,,,,but if i am allowed to vote, i think i ll be 60-70% blue based on my tendency of leaning a lot towards blue stronghold policy issues like, specially immigration, taxes, gay marriage issues, religious tolerance/ diversity, climate change,,etc..

[mesan123]

oh thatz good...if something happens....fingers crossed


Happening now -Senator Durbin is bringing back Dream Act - Senate floor proceedings live on Cspan

[mesan123]

Kanmani...i am watching CSPAN, i see Senator DANA talking about global warming....am i wrong CSPAN channel.....

If the dream talk is already finished , what was the outcome of it

[gcq]

Kanmani...i am watching CSPAN, i see Senator DANA talking about global warming....am i wrong CSPAN channel.....

If the dream talk is already finished , what was the outcome of it
I didn't see DREAM act either. Was he watching some old recordings ?
DANA is in house. In senate it is Mike Enzi on some spending.

[immitime]

Happening now -Senator Durbin is bringing back Dream Act - Senate floor proceedings live on Cspan

Kanmani Thanks for sharing

This was expected as part of Nov 2012 Presidential election campaign, for wooing Latino votes! But will it help HR 3012 to pass unanimously.. ( as Sen Schumer said Swiftly! before the end of this year!)

Wait for the good to happen.

[gcq]

Did durbin speak under "General Speeches" ?
Sen Mike Enzi seems to be speaking under "General Speeches".

There doesn't seem to be a DREAM act for the current congress. The latest DREAM act I found on thomas.gov
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.729:

[suninphx]

He took his time from morning business timings. He asked to reconsider the dream act by giving examples of undocumented highly educated youngsters suffering in the name of illegals

Thanks for information. What this all means for HR3012 (high level?), if anything.

[Kanmani]

I really dont know at this point of time. Just watching daily to find if Senator Grassley has anything to say. He is promptly attending the floor proceedings as per schedule, atleast giving two speeches daily, nothing related to 3012.

Currently Senate is dealing with tax cut extension , no agreement is reached.

[letheQ]

I am Just waiting to hear the news , that Mr. Grassley removed the hold (or) the bill scheduled for debate. I wrote him a letter including my story through his website .
IF every one can do that . He may at-least let it go to debate with amendments.

[gcq]

I am Just waiting to hear the news , that Mr. Grassley removed the hold (or) the bill scheduled for debate. I wrote him a letter including my story through his website .
IF every one can do that . He may at-least let it go to debate with amendments.
Why do you want it to go "with amendments" into "debate". I want this to pass with no amendments and no debate just the way it passed in house.

[suninphx]

I really dont know at this point of time. Just watching daily to find if Senator Grassley has anything to say. He is promptly attending the floor proceedings as per schedule, atleast giving two speeches daily, nothing related to 3012.

Currently Senate is dealing with tax cut extension , no agreement is reached.

Thanks for all your effort to keep this forum up to date with all this info.

[jackbrown_890]

Thanks for all your effort to keep this forum up to date with all this info.

I don't know what to make out this,,,I saw few commercials in one hour by FAIR against immigration and someone else here mentioned it too the other day about Fair's ad on CNN,, is it possible dems/congress talking about a big move on immigration in near future? i wonder if anyone ** knows about it

[mesan123]

Yeap...dont know coincedence or what ...it looks that way :) ....


I doubt somebody from Oh firm visits our forum .

[jackbrown_890]

I don't know what to make out this,,,I saw few commercials in one hour by FAIR against immigration and someone else here mentioned it too the other day about Fair's ad on CNN,, is it possible dems/congress talking about a big move on immigration in near future? i wonder if anyone ** knows about it

Yup, reported by miamiherald/kansascity/washington post etc...there is a new bill called "the startup act" or jobs bill - bi-partisan will be introduced soon,Moran and Warner hope to create a new visa class for up to 50,000 foreign students who earned graduate degrees from American universities in science, technology, engineering or math. It also envisions a visa for up to 75,000 immigrant entrepreneurs who earned technical degrees in the United States and who create businesses that employ Americans...etc..,The lawmakers partnered with the president’s Council on Jobs and the Kauffman Foundation to introduce the proposal.,,
and that could be the reason FAIRus has been advertising a lot in last 2-3 days opposing even legal immigration...

[jackbrown_890]

here is the link to the main points of the bill ,,check section 8 & 9
http://moran.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/files/serve?File_id=f6654812-2a6f-4826-8379-186d6580dab8
It is a bi-partisan bill.. so lets see what happens in next few days...

[Feb262009]

Let us all keep hope and work for bringing up h.r.3012 in the senate. It is a tough job, but not impossible. Cheer up guys.

Even ants can wear out a rock with persistence. We can achieve too. Let us keep knocking the senator's offices thru all possible means.

[imdeng]

So we are all caught up in the excitement of the Jan VB. HR-3012 should remain the focus though. Nothing much has happened recently. I came across this article at Lexology, which is a decently popular site. Among the usual crap, it has the following sentence:

The President is expected to sign the bill once it passes the Senate.
The emphasis on "once" is mine, to contrast that there is no "if" there.

Everyone - please continue working for HR-3012. Right now the best thing you can do is call your Senator's office - so please do so.
Link to the article: http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=225d6fce-39f6-4f90-b0dd-2522b144360a

[lalaji]

Now Mike Lee & Schumer is co sopnsor of AGREE act. Looks like HR 3012 will pass senate soon.

[lalaji]

Now Mike Lee & Schumer is co sopnsor of AGREE act. Looks like HR 3012 will pass senate soon.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Doing that! 3 visits to my state Senator's offices, 1 more planned before the vacations. I also printed out the flyer's that ** posted and actually visited Indian grocery stores and a temple (I never go to those 2 places otherwise) and distributed them yesterday. I have plans for doing this over the weekend too. I agree - we should not get lost in the VB and have our EB3-I friends in mind. Every visa bulletin for the past 2/3 months, EB3-I people get more frustrated and start threads (on trackitt) bashing EB2-I. This should not happen.

I totally agree with you. I am a physician under EB2I. I am supporting HR 3012 and I will keep supporting it irrespective of my green card status.

My support is based on my belief that country quota in employment category is unfair and should be removed.

Also, I have many friends in EB3I who had Masters from US universities but their GCs were filed in EB3 because their companies did not want to file in EB2 and also EB3I was not that bad few years ago. Now, they all are stuck. Some of them did port to EB2 successfully and got their GCs. Others tried to port but failed. For many more, porting is not possible due to various reasons.

I have many friends from EB2ROW and I honestly don't try to breath down their neck asking them to support HR 3012. They are opposing it and they are free to do it. I will support it and we are free to do it. They will still be my friends regardless of HR 3012 becomes a law or not.

Having said that, we may see some support fading away from EB2I mainly because many have got current with the January 2012 visa bulletin as they will be occupied filing their documents and getting their physicals and vaccinations done.

However, EB2I still needs HR 3012. With this kind of large movements in EB2 India and China, retrogression is inevitable and looming over. Yes, larger demand destruction seems to have influenced this huge movement to some extent. But I am certain that the dates will retrogress and will be stalled for sometime (at least for the rest of the FY2012). So, EB2I should not get too high and start flying because this movement is transitional and not permanent.

Anybody who files in EB2I today will still have a wait time of at least 4 years and that has been pretty consistent. Moreover, EB2I is completely spill-over dependent so in future, if the demand destruction is less and if the spill-over is low from EB1, EB4, EB5 and EB2ROW then basically EB2I backlog is going to grow for sure.

To conclude, I would say that EB2I still needs HR 3012. It is true that EB3I needs it much more than EB2I. But in the end, we all have to work together and support the bill.

[letheQ]

Why do you want it to go "with amendments" into "debate". I want this to pass with no amendments and no debate just the way it passed in house.

Because , I want to see some movement in H.R.3012 . I am confident that the amendments(if) will be defeated by other senators and the voting will result in our Favor .

[rdsingh79]

I see that now AGREE act has 9 co-sponsors...


Now Mike Lee & Schumer is co sopnsor of AGREE act. Looks like HR 3012 will pass senate soon.

[letheQ]

Now Mike Lee & Schumer is co sopnsor of AGREE act. Looks like HR 3012 will pass senate soon.

Agree ACT , Start up ACT, STAPLE ACT lot many pending in the queue . I guess the congressmen should focus passing something than introducing new ACT's every Month/Quarter.

[la_2002_ch]

I totally agree with you. I am a physician under EB2I. I am supporting HR 3012 and I will keep supporting it irrespective of my green card status.

My support is based on my belief that country quota in employment category is unfair and should be removed.

Also, I have many friends in EB3I who had Masters from US universities but their GCs were filed in EB3 because their companies did not want to file in EB2 and also EB3I was not that bad few years ago. Now, they all are stuck. Some of them did port to EB2 successfully and got their GCs. Others tried to port but failed. For many more, porting is not possible due to various reasons.

I have many friends from EB2ROW and I honestly don't try to breath down their neck asking them to support HR 3012. They are opposing it and they are free to do it. I will support it and we are free to do it. They will still be my friends regardless of HR 3012 becomes a law or not.

Having said that, we may see some support fading away from EB2I mainly because many have got current with the January 2012 visa bulletin as they will be occupied filing their documents and getting their physicals and vaccinations done.

However, EB2I still needs HR 3012. With this kind of large movements in EB2 India and China, retrogression is inevitable and looming over. Yes, larger demand destruction seems to have influenced this huge movement to some extent. But I am certain that the dates will retrogress and will be stalled for sometime (at least for the rest of the FY2012). So, EB2I should not get too high and start flying because this movement is transitional and not permanent.

Anybody who files in EB2I today will still have a wait time of at least 4 years and that has been pretty consistent. Moreover, EB2I is completely spill-over dependent so in future, if the demand destruction is less and if the spill-over is low from EB1, EB4, EB5 and EB2ROW then basically EB2I backlog is going to grow for sure.

To conclude, I would say that EB2I still needs HR 3012. It is true that EB3I needs it much more than EB2I. But in the end, we all have to work together and support the bill.

With all due respect, I dont agree with your statement that the support from EB2 I will fade away as they get current. I am EB2 I and got current today, but I am still supporting this bill the same way as I was doing yesterday.

We need this bill to eliminate the in-justice (dis-crimination) we have faced for so many years and this is the best/closest opportunity we have ever got.

[imdeng]

Well - life takes over you know - however much you might want to - the sense of urgency is no longer there. It is great if people who become current continue to be active and supportive - but I am not going to be too surprised if that does not happen to the extent you are expecting.

With all due respect, I dont agree with your statement that the support from EB2 I will fade away as they get current. I am EB2 I and got current today, but I am still supporting this bill the same way as I was doing yesterday.

We need this bill to eliminate the in-justice (dis-crimination) we have faced for so many years and this is the best/closest opportunity we have ever got.

[vishnu]

Also no reason to stop support as its still going to take time to get GCs...EADs are great but are not GCs (so dont count towards the 5 years required for naturalization etc)...

[Jonty Rhodes]

With all due respect, I dont agree with your statement that the support from EB2 I will fade away as they get current. I am EB2 I and got current today, but I am still supporting this bill the same way as I was doing yesterday.

We need this bill to eliminate the in-justice (dis-crimination) we have faced for so many years and this is the best/closest opportunity we have ever got.

Sorry for not specifying. What I meant to say that the support may fade away temporarily as there are many in EB2I who got current and will be busy filing their documents and getting their physicals and vaccinations done. I did not mean to say that EB2I who got current will just stop supporting it.

I guess, I should have been more specific while saying this. I just wanted to say that temporarily, one may see a drop in support in terms of taking actions like signing online petitions, calling senators, distributing flyers, involving other friends etc. I am not talking about the drop in overall support per say but just a temporary drop in support in terms of doing some ground action and that is also just a possibility, not a gospel truth.

I agree, this is the best chance we have got so far in last 11 years and we should not let it go.

[immitime]

Sorry for not specifying. What I meant to say that the support may fade away temporarily as there are many in EB2I who got current and will be busy filing their documents and getting their physicals and vaccinations done. I did not mean to say that EB2I who got current will just stop supporting it.

I guess, I should have been more specific while saying this. I just wanted to say that temporarily, one may see a drop in support in terms of taking actions like signing online petitions, calling senators, distributing flyers, involving other friends etc. I am not talking about the drop in overall support per say but just a temporary drop in support in terms of doing some ground action and that is also just a possibility, not a gospel truth.

I agree, this is the best chance we have got so far in last 11 years and we should not let it go.

I do not think for a bill which has overwhelming majority support in Congress, the Senators will not let it go, why because election year and bipartisan bill. we may have to wait until next week for further info.

[la_2002_ch]

Sorry for not specifying. What I meant to say that the support may fade away temporarily as there are many in EB2I who got current and will be busy filing their documents and getting their physicals and vaccinations done. I did not mean to say that EB2I who got current will just stop supporting it.

I guess, I should have been more specific while saying this. I just wanted to say that temporarily, one may see a drop in support in terms of taking actions like signing online petitions, calling senators, distributing flyers, involving other friends etc. I am not talking about the drop in overall support per say but just a temporary drop in support in terms of doing some ground action and that is also just a possibility, not a gospel truth.

I agree, this is the best chance we have got so far in last 11 years and we should not let it go.


OK, now that I understand what you mean to say, I agree with you.

[immitime]

The Oh Law Firm reports as below.

12/10/2011: Irish E-3 Nonimmigrant Visa Bill Scheduled to be Introduced in the Senate Tuesday, 12/13/2011

http://www.immigration-law.com/Canada.html

We reported earlier that Irish community had been lobbying to introduce this bill as an amendment to H.R. 3012. However sources of information indicate that two powerful Democrat Senators of Chuck Schumer, Chairman of Senate Judiciary Immigration Subcommittee and Dick Durbin, Senate Manority Whip, are scheduled to co-sponsor and introduce this bill in the Senate on Tuesday. Considering the fact that H.R. 3012 bill is on hold, it is likely that the bill may be introduced as a separate bill. This may be considered an interesting turn of event. For the development of this news, please stay tuned to this website.

[mniwas]

2/10/2011: Irish E-3 Nonimmigrant Visa Bill Scheduled to be Introduced in the Senate Tuesday, 12/13/2011
http://www.immigration-law.com/Canada.html

Don't quite understand what Ohio Law firm is saying. Are they saying that a new bill will be introduced by these two democratic congressmen. And that in this bill beside the Irish E-3 agenda... provisions of HR3012 will also be included?

[vickywac]

Examiner reports, Senator schumer set to introduce H R 3012 with an amendment for Irish E3 visas. If this is introduced with amendment, not sure about the fate of this Bill.

http://www.examiner.com/immigration-reform-in-springfield-ma/senator-schumer-set-to-introduce-immigration-bill-senate-to-help-irish

[lalaji]

No,Schumer going to introduce new bill for E3.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Schumer is going to introduce a new bill for Irish. This is not an amendment to HR 3012.

Personally, I find it ridiculous that Irish are asking for this bill because they fear that HR 3012, if passed by Senate, will take away GCs from them and award it to Indian, Chinese, Mexican and Filipinos. If this E3 bill passes, then any other country with reasonable amount of immigration to US may want to ask for a separate bill in future.

So basically, if I have to wait longer in a line on a first come first serve basis, I will ask the authority to form a new line for me where no one can come. What a great logic.

We know that this may not happen at least for a while, but actually, going by this logic of Irish, India and China should definitely ask for two separate immigration bills which only deal with India and China exclusively. No one else comes in their line. Indian and Chinese do not have strong lobbies on Capitol Hill and that is what we definitely need. This just shows us how strong the Irish lobby is when it comes to these kind of things.

[gcq]

IMO all these new immigration bills popping up everywhere is because of the confidence generated by the passage of HR3012. For a while nobody dared to touch immigration issue. As HR3012 was carefully crafted to gain widespread support, it sailed through house. Looking at its smooth sail, pro-immigrant groups have gained a false sense of optimism that any immigration bill will sail through in this climate. However reality is very different.

[imdeng]

I found below in the comments section of a WSJ article. Credit to Janak Raguraman (commenter). This is a well written, well reasoned argument in support of HR-3012:

Walk into a top ranked university (Stanford, MIT, Berkeley ...you name it), and try and count the number of Indian and Chinese graduate students there as a percentage of the total student body.

You'll see that over 50 % of the students graduating with advanced degrees in the country are from India and China. A overwhelming majority of these students are on scholarships.

Universities give them scholarships not because they have an agenda to increase immigration, but because they are impressed with the talent and rigor these students bring to their universities.

How useful would it be to America if students from India and China got educated on US tax payer money, and then left the country out of frustration for the immigration system? I know of multiple friends who have returned to India and China after their graduate studies. They now run companies abroad..and they are competing against the US. In essence, the American tax payer has helped another country compete against Americans.

The H1b system is not perfect. There is most probably some fraudulent cases, but this is NOT rampant. There is probably far greater fraud in the Diversity immigrant or family immigrant VISA, for which there is absolutely no education or qualification level required.

HR3012 is a much needed fix to the system because it incentivizes Indian and Chinese born students to remain in this country, live up to their real potential, and go entrepreneurial. The current system forces them to consider alternatives.

Does America want smart, enterprising folks to remain in this country or does it want to force these extremely talented individuals to go back and compete again the country that spent $200,000 educating them?

Link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203833104577070552739470434.html#a rticleTabs%3Dcomments

[nishant2200]

yes this is the most sensible reasoning I have seen so far for HR 3012.


I found below in the comments section of a WSJ article. Credit to Janak Raguraman (commenter). This is a well written, well reasoned argument in support of HR-3012:


Link: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203833104577070552739470434.html#a rticleTabs%3Dcomments

[gcq]

IMO all these new immigration bills popping up everywhere is because of the confidence generated by the passage of HR3012. For a while nobody dared to touch immigration issue. As HR3012 was carefully crafted to gain widespread support, it sailed through house. Looking at its smooth sail, pro-immigrant groups have gained a false sense of optimism that any immigration bill will sail through in this climate. However reality is very different.
A news link validating this theory.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/12/v_visa.html

The bipartisan and overwhelming support with which the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act passed last week may signal an opportunity to move the dialogue away from state vigilante enforcement and federal inaction and toward bipartisan agreement and concrete solutions. As Congress revisits the per-country limitations with H.R. 3012, now is an opportune time to also reauthorize this important family reunification tool without a sunset provision.

[kd2008]

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20111206/NEWS/111206009/-1/PIONEERS/Poll-likely-caucusgoers-shows-support-legal-immigration

Please send letters to Sen. Grassley Quoting this article and urging him to remove his hold on HR 3012


Forty-one percent of those surveyed favored increased opportunities for legal immigrants to enter the U.S. workforce, and another 29 percent could live with it. Fully 73 percent of respondents were open to allowing foreign-born students to go to work in the U.S. after graduation.

An even larger majority —79 percent — favored or could live with streamlining the processes for businesses to hire immigrants for seasonal and full-time jobs that Americans aren’t taking.

[jackbrown_890]

“I welcome the Coalition of Irish Immigration Centers’ video conference call on Tuesday,” Lawless said. “The fact that the bill is being held up in the Senate by the ranking Republican of the Senate Judiciary Senator Grassley gives us Irish an opportunity to collectively rally our legislative contacts to strongly advocate the Senate to amend HR 3012 by adding legislation to apply the E-3 Visa to Irish Nationals.”

As Lawless said in his statement "strongly advocate the Senate to amend HR 3012.....etc.

If there is an amendment to 3012...that means there will be some action on 3012

and there is a possibility of new separate bill too but
reported by RTE news "Charles Grassley from Iowa, who has just confirmed to RTÉ News that he will oppose the legislation."

[immitime]

“I welcome the Coalition of Irish Immigration Centers’ video conference call on Tuesday,” Lawless said. “The fact that the bill is being held up in the Senate by the ranking Republican of the Senate Judiciary Senator Grassley gives us Irish an opportunity to collectively rally our legislative contacts to strongly advocate the Senate to amend HR 3012 by adding legislation to apply the E-3 Visa to Irish Nationals.”

As Lawless said in his statement "strongly advocate the Senate to amend HR 3012.....etc.

If there is an amendment to 3012...that means there will be some action on 3012

and there is a possibility of new separate bill too but
reported by RTE news "Charles Grassley from Iowa, who has just confirmed to RTÉ News that he will oppose the legislation."

This is really strange that H.R.3012 is to eliminate country cap at the same time they need to amend it with E-3 Irish Quota.(along with pardon for undocumented). This is going to be a Joke if this is discussed in Senate, I am sure that E-3 Irish will be voted down, No sane person will support this bill with amendment for Irish(special quota), like in Congress they tried to amend it with Zoe Lofgren's Visa recapture and Rep Steve Kings agenda.. of eliminating EB3

[jackbrown_890]

Schumer’s bill would introduce the same House bill that passed two weeks ago in the senate with the E3 visas added. : it seems like they are talking about 3012

In the senate Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa has stated that he will oppose the original bill and not allow it expedited passage but there is mounting pressure on the Iowa Republican to let it pass. If this is true that means, there is some hope for 3012

Schumer stated that if the bill did not pass he would work on a different bill for next years’ legislative session that would help the Irish. not good for us..this means a delay for the passage of 3012 (or dead)



Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Senator-Schumer-set-to-introduce-immigration-bill-in-Senate-to-help-Irish-135370093.html#ixzz1gRZ16Jbk

[jackbrown_890]

This is really strange that H.R.3012 is to eliminate country cap at the same time they need to amend it with E-3 Irish Quota.(along with pardon for undocumented). This is going to be a Joke if this is discussed in Senate, I am sure that E-3 Irish will be voted down, No sane person will support this bill with amendment for Irish(special quota), like in Congress they tried to amend it with Zoe Lofgren's Visa recapture and Rep Steve Kings agenda.. of eliminating EB3

apparently they are talking about separate E-3 visas for Irish, and surprisingly they do have e-3 visas with less stringent requirements thn h1 for Australians (10,000) this is not Eb-3 green cards...
this is e-3 work visa for Irish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa

[jackbrown_890]

it seems like Irish sites are saying it will be introduced later today, so If anyone is watching C-span senate,,or if hear anything about this in d senate, please post it here ASAP..
thank you

[immitime]

apparently they are talking about separate E-3 visas for Irish, and surprisingly they do have e-3 visas with less stringent requirements thn h1 for Australians (10,000) this is not Eb-3 green cards...
this is e-3 work visa for Irish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa

Thanks Jackbrown for clarification, so E-3 Visa, still I will be surprised if Grassley agrees for 10000 more visas, We need to wait for the real scene soon. If not January :-)

[jackbrown_890]

Thanks Jackbrown for clarification, so E-3 Visa, still I will be surprised if Grassley agrees for 10000 more visas, We need to wait for the real scene soon. If not January :-)

YW. and yes Grassley is going to oppose it for sure as reported by RTE news "Charles Grassley from Iowa, who has just confirmed to RTÉ News that he will oppose the legislation."
but i am curious now because if this e-3 is an amendment to 3012, that means someone will have to file a cloture and bring it to the vote, or i am not sure if it is possible to bring S1857 for vote with this amendment. S.1857 hasn't cleared judiciary committee yet.

[kuku82]

FYI, S.1866 AGREE act (HR3012/S1857 is a "subset" of this bill) has one more cosponsor (Sen Brown, Scott P. [MA] - 12/12/2011). It has 10 cosponsors now.

[gcq]

An interesting video on Grassley. One of the main reason he is in Senate, in Senate there is no limit on "debate". In house he had to beg for debate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBnD8uaH1Ds&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Jonty Rhodes]

Pardon my language but how can this Jackass be called an Immigration Expert? The surprising part is that this idiot works at UC Davis.

Here is a link where our so called intelligent moron has tried to decode the Grassley hold on HR 3012.

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/Archive/HR3012.txt

Here are 2 more idiotic articles.

http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sciencecareers/2011/03/an-internal-bra.html

http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2010_07_09/caredit.a1000069

Here is his H1B visa page link.

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html

This is just a gross misrepresentation of facts. I have many friends in IT industry in Microsoft, Google, Apple, Adobe, HP, Samsung, Sony, Intel etc. who are on H1B and get a 6 figure salary. Also, foreign born physicians are on H1B too and get paid as much as their American counterparts.

I don't loose my cool generally but I was severely pissed off after reading these articles. This man does not know a damn thing about the immigrants who are waiting for their green cards and their qualifications and he is delivering lectures to others. Wow!!!!

[gcq]

Norman Matloff is a known anti-immigrant. All anti-immigrant racist organizations use him as an argument against all kind of immigration. Don't worry about him. He has been around for a while.

[lalaji]

Sen Chuck Schumer of New York, co-sponsored Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois and Sen. Leahy of Vermont, introduced yesterday S.1983 to eliminate the per-country numerical limitation for employment-based immigrants, to increase the per-country numerical limitation for family-sponsored immigrants, and for other reform. Obviously other reform includes relief of Irish which we discussed during last few days. It thus appears that this bill could be a bill to compromised H.R. 3012 and Irish relief. Full text has yet to be made available. Stay tuned.

source: http://www.immigration-law.com/Canada.html

[kd2008]

End of HR 3012 as we speak! I don't see it passing at all. Sorry to be so pessimistic!

[Pedro Gonzales]

End of HR 3012 as we speak! I don't see it passing at all. Sorry to be so pessimistic!

I disagree. I see this bill as being a largely symbolic act to appease their Irish American constituents. This bill has no chance to pass, but that doesn't mean that Schumer no longer supports HR3012/S1857. If anything, I take this to mean two more influential politicians (Leahy heads the senate judiciary committee, and Durbin's 2nd most senior Democrat in the senate) support removal of country caps.

Good news all around. HR3012 is still alive.

[Kanmani]

Yesterday I sat for 8 hours to find what is behind Schmuer's bill. I didnt see him addressing , not even his face shown in the tv for the entire day. Then where the hell did he introduce the bill?

Yesterday's debate was revolving around Balanced Budget amendment and nothing else. ( Grassley gave me his attendence :-))

[mesan123]

today from oh law firm news

Sen Chuck Schumer of New York, co-sponsored Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois and Sen. Leahy of Vermont, introduced yesterday S.1983 to eliminate the per-country numerical limitation for employment-based immigrants, to increase the per-country numerical limitation for family-sponsored immigrants, and for other reform. Obviously other reform includes relief of Irish which we discussed during last few days. It thus appears that this bill could be a bill to compromise H.R. 3012 and Irish relief. Read on. It thus appears that rather than introducing Irish relief bill, he added Irish E-3 visa and illegal Irish relief provision to H.R. 3012 which the House passes. Full text has yet to be made available. Stay tuned.

[jackbrown_890]

Yesterday I sat for 8 hours to find what is behind Schmuer's bill. I didnt see him addressing , not even his face shown in the tv for the entire day. Then where the hell did he introduce the bill?

Yesterday's debate was revolving around Balanced Budget amendment and nothing else. ( Grassley gave me his attendence :-))

I also watched C-span for hours, my roommate told me i am crazy..he was like, who watches C-span in this country? anyways,


Right now i will support the bill. It seems like first E-3 visas were for Australians and had not much to do with H1b..i would like to see they do not change H1b numbers.
Seems like Irish community is actually not opposing 3012 or similar bill, they just want to include their own provisions in any of these bills. So in the end i will support this bill too.

looking at this new bill/ in one way 3012 is dead but on the other hand 1983 includes everything 3012 had plus E-3 for Irish, so not totally dead yet. (official text is not out yet)

[immitime]

I also watched C-span for hours, my roommate told me i am crazy..he was like, who watches C-span in this country? anyways,


Right now i will support the bill. It seems like first E-3 visas were for Australians and had not much to do with H1b..i would like to see they do not change H1b numbers.
Seems like Irish community is actually not opposing 3012 or similar bill, they just want to include their own provisions in any of these bills. So in the end i will support this bill too.

looking at this new bill/ in one way 3012 is dead but on the other hand 1983 includes everything 3012 had plus E-3 for Irish, so not totally dead yet. (official text is not out yet)

Country quota will be eliminated at any cost I think, see any senator introducing any bill have the elimination of country quota provision in it. So they are so sure that "elimination of per country quota" + along with their interests will move in House and Senate.

HR 3012 already passed The house, this S.1983 bill definitely have to go to House for passage of E-3 Visa allocation of Irish and a pinch of Illegal amnesty in it. Wait for the drama to unveil completely. It is like Elections days here for rest of this year! All the interest groups are trying to add their wish aolng with "country quota elimination" Politricks! Finally elimination of country quota should come out as winner.

[imdeng]

Man - this is messed up! We are looking for fairness - FIFO - and here people are trying to add amendments for special groups!! Why on earth would Irish need a special visa - for that matter - why do Australians have the special E-3 visa? Dealing with politics and politicians is so frustrating. I used to be mad at all the stupid politicians in India - things are better in US - there is no blatant corruption - but there still is so much chaos behind the curtain. This is so awful and sad.

[imdeng]

What do the Irish gain by E-3 visa? H1B is now not oversubscribed - they can very well work in US on H1B. E-3 happens to be a non-immigration-intent visa as well - I fail to see the benefit. Singapore/Chile that has a 6K block reserved in the H1B quota for them have a much better deal.

What is their argument regarding why an Irish E-3 visa (as opposed to an E-3 visa available to anybody) be better for the US economy? I don't think anybody can make this case effectively. If there is any common sense among the politicians, this amendment should fail. It is indicative of the "race preference" that an Irish E-3 visa has support of at least some Senators while a similar E-3 visa for any non-Western-Europe will be dead on arrival.

[gcq]

What do the Irish gain by E-3 visa? H1B is now not oversubscribed - they can very well work in US on H1B. E-3 happens to be a non-immigration-intent visa as well - I fail to see the benefit. Singapore/Chile that has a 6K block reserved in the H1B quota for them have a much better deal.

What is their argument regarding why an Irish E-3 visa (as opposed to an E-3 visa available to anybody) be better for the US economy? I don't think anybody can make this case effectively. If there is any common sense among the politicians, this amendment should fail. It is indicative of the "race preference" that an Irish E-3 visa has support of at least some Senators while a similar E-3 visa for any non-Western-Europe will be dead on arrival.

The difference between reserved H1B and E3-Irish ? Amnesty.
Irish lobby is targeting amnesty for Irish by this bill. Clearly it will face huge hurdles in house. Irish lobby is powerful so Schumer cannot ignore their request. So he introduced the bill knowing it won't make any traction in house.

[imdeng]

There can't be too many Irish illegals in this country - right? There isn't a border for them to cross and come. Ireland is doing pretty well and they are in EU - Irish citizens can go and work in any country in the EU. Makes no sense for many illegal Irish citizens to be in US.

The difference between reserved H1B and E3-Irish ? Amnesty.
Irish lobby is targeting amnesty for Irish by this bill. Clearly it will face huge hurdles in house. Irish lobby is powerful so Schumer cannot ignore their request. So he introduced the bill knowing it won't make any traction in house.

[gcq]

There can't be too many Irish illegals in this country - right? There isn't a border for them to cross and come. Ireland is doing pretty well and they are in EU - Irish citizens can go and work in any country in the EU. Makes no sense for many illegal Irish citizens to be in US.
Many europeans including british do immigrate to US. I have heard from brits that UK is not that good. Europeans come to US through Visa waiver program and stay back. That is how they become illegals.

[immitime]

There can't be too many Irish illegals in this country - right? There isn't a border for them to cross and come. Ireland is doing pretty well and they are in EU - Irish citizens can go and work in any country in the EU. Makes no sense for many illegal Irish citizens to be in US.

So now there are four different bills which includes the elimination of per country quota.

S1983--------> Irish E3 visas includes the same provision of 3012 -----dog seen a fire hydrant to have his mark!
Agree Act-----> the provisions of HR3012/S1857 ------another fire hydrant case
HR3012----->Grassley has put a hold on this bill.---I guess due to political reason
S1857-------> is the Senate version of the 3012 bill -----Helping HR 3012 to become law Exact Photostat copy.

Wiat and See how many more bills to come with differnt interests! but ultimately the common factor will become LAW, that is the Political Science!

[imdeng]

Agree that S1983 is a fire hydrant case - but not AGREE Act. AGREE has a lot of other stuff which are meaningful by themselves other than the HR-3012 component.

So now there are four different bills which includes the elimination of per country quota.

S1983--------> Irish E3 visas includes the same provision of 3012 -----dog seen a fire hydrant to have his mark!
Agree Act-----> the provisions of HR3012/S1857 ------another fire hydrant case
HR3012----->Grassley has put a hold on this bill.---I guess due to political reason
S1857-------> is the Senate version of the 3012 bill -----Helping HR 3012 to become law Exact Photostat copy.

Wiat and See how many more bills to come with differnt interests! but ultimately the common factor will become LAW, that is the Political Science!

[codesmith]

Just wanted to update Q members.
I'll remove this post at the end of day.

From : http://immigration-law.com/
12/14/2011: Three Most Powerful Democrats Introduced in Senate Compromised Employment-Based/Family-Based Immigration Bill

Sen Chuck Schumer of New York, co-sponsored Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois and Sen. Leahy of Vermont, introduced yesterday S.1983 to eliminate the per-country numerical limitation for employment-based immigrants, to increase the per-country numerical limitation for family-sponsored immigrants, and for other reform. Obviously other reform includes relief of Irish which we discussed during last few days. It thus appears that this bill could be a bill to compromise H.R. 3012 and Irish relief. Read on. It thus appears that rather than introducing Irish relief bill, he added Irish E-3 visa and illegal Irish relief provision to H.R. 3012 which the House passes. Full text has yet to be made available. Stay tuned.

[nayekal]

Just wanted to update Q members.
I'll remove this post at the end of day.

From : http://immigration-law.com/
12/14/2011: Three Most Powerful Democrats Introduced in Senate Compromised Employment-Based/Family-Based Immigration Bill

Sen Chuck Schumer of New York, co-sponsored Sen. Dick Durbin of Illinois and Sen. Leahy of Vermont, introduced yesterday S.1983 to eliminate the per-country numerical limitation for employment-based immigrants, to increase the per-country numerical limitation for family-sponsored immigrants, and for other reform. Obviously other reform includes relief of Irish which we discussed during last few days. It thus appears that this bill could be a bill to compromise H.R. 3012 and Irish relief. Read on. It thus appears that rather than introducing Irish relief bill, he added Irish E-3 visa and illegal Irish relief provision to H.R. 3012 which the House passes. Full text has yet to be made available. Stay tuned.

It is confusing to see that a new bill S.1983, which is similar to HR 3012 with regards to the content except adding Irish relief package. But it doesn't say any thing about the hold placed on HR 3012, by Senator Grassley, whether it was removed or not.

Gurus, Does any know how it works right now? Does it have to go through house or senate first. Looks like this is a new bill, so it should go through house first and then to senate. In case if the provision is added to HR 3012, then I think, it will go to house once again.

[jackbrown_890]

at this time any legislative action would be a great help..
i checked judiciary committee's next meeting on 15th,, none of these bills r on d list.
so lets hope one would show up in d next meeting,,,hopefully on 23rd.

[jackbrown_890]

also, there is a chance 1983 may move in the house judiciary since leahy is a co-sponsor and he is chair of Senate Judiciary...and i would like to see Mike Lee co-sponsor it. but because of E-3 Mike lee or any other republican may back down,,..but lets hope schumer will be able to convince few republicans to co-sponsor this bill,

[immitime]

also, there is a chance 1983 may move in the house judiciary since leahy is a co-sponsor and he is chair of Senate Judiciary...and i would like to see Mike Lee co-sponsor it. but because of E-3 Mike lee or any other republican may back down,,..but lets hope schumer will be able to convince few republicans to co-sponsor this bill,

Now, this is like saying to remove per country quota, we need to wait for the E-3 Visa allocation for Irish [i}Legals. for each "Fire Hydrant" bill this can happen. But one thing is sure The support for 3012 is strong and stable and it continues, on one senators whims and fancies to hold multiple bills on his interest. But that is politics. Hope grassley changes his mind soon.

More over RTE reports 1983 is an amendment with H.R.3012.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Senator-Charles-Schumer-unveils-new-Irish-visa-bill-135569518.html

[immitime]

also, there is a chance 1983 may move in the house judiciary since leahy is a co-sponsor and he is chair of Senate Judiciary...and i would like to see Mike Lee co-sponsor it. but because of E-3 Mike lee or any other republican may back down,,..but lets hope schumer will be able to convince few republicans to co-sponsor this bill,

You are right Jackbrown.

http://irishecho.com/?p=68441

See what immigration-law have to say below. h

ttp://www.immigration-law.com/

12/14/2011: Irish Community - A Big Comrade to H.R. 3012

This site reported, immediately after the passage of H.R. 3012 in the House, Irish move to amend H.R. 3012 because they saw it a fantastic opportunity to get their immigration agenda through the Congress. Why? Because it was unprecedent that a bill had passed in the House 389 to 15 majority yeas. This site thus reported the Irish move will turn out to be an asset for the H.R. 3012 sponsors to tackle the opposition in the Senate. At the end of the day, H.R. 3012 may not survive itself but the substance and goals of H.R. 3012 had a chance to survive in different forms as seen in Sen. Chuck Schumer's S. 1983. Senator Schumer, a big veteran legislator, skillfully handled the matter by bypassing H.R. 3012 or its companion bill, S. 1857 and introducing it as a separate bill, S. 1983. Look who is cosponsoring S. 1983, Senator Dick Durbin!! The pal of Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa in piecemeal employment-based immigration opposition! Click here to see how hard the Irish community is lobbying for the bill. What an astonishing and unanticipated big ally for the H.R. 3012!

[feedmyback]

12/14/2011: Irish Community - A Big Comrade to H.R. 3012 (Courtesy: Oh Law Firm)

This site reported, immediately after the passage of H.R. 3012 in the House, Irish move to amend H.R. 3012 because they saw it a fantastic opportunity to get their immigration agenda through the Congress. Why? Because it was unprecedent that a bill had passed in the House 389 to 15 majority yeas. This site thus reported the Irish move will turn out to be an asset for the H.R. 3012 sponsors to tackle the opposition in the Senate. At the end of the day, H.R. 3012 may not survive itself but the substance and goals of H.R. 3012 had a chance to survive in different forms as seen in Sen. Chuck Schumer's S. 1983. Senator Schumer, a big veteran legislator, skillfully handled the matter by bypassing H.R. 3012 or its companion bill, S. 1857 and introducing it as a separate bill, S. 1983. Look who is cosponsoring S. 1983, Senator Dick Durbin!! The pal of Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa in piecemeal employment-based immigration opposition! Click here to see how hard the Irish community is lobbying for the bill. What an astonishing and unanticipated big ally for the H.R. 3012!


Now, this is like saying to remove per country quota, we need to wait for the E-3 Visa allocation for Irish [i}Legals. for each "Fire Hydrant" bill this can happen. But one thing is sure The support for 3012 is strong and stable and it continues, on one senators whims and fancies to hold multiple bills on his interest. But that is politics. Hope grassley changes his mind soon.

More over RTE reports 1983 is an amendment with H.R.3012.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Senator-Charles-Schumer-unveils-new-Irish-visa-bill-135569518.html

[mesan123]

Will all these new bills and addition of irish peice to HR 3012...what r the chances of any of this bill becoming law next few months

[imdeng]

Any activity is better than no activity. There are several paths for HR-3012 open still. AGREE Act is getting co-sponsors. We need a vote held in Senate on any of the related bills - does not matter which one.
The vibe I am getting is that HR-3012 is not dead, far from it - it has so much life that it is attracting all the hanger-ons that want to ride its coat-tails (also referred to as dog-hydrant effect in this forum :-). All this activity will sooner or later result in some kind of vote and resolution. Although it does not seem like it will happen very soon.

Will all these new bills and addition of irish peice to HR 3012...what r the chances of any of this bill becoming law next few months

[mesan123]

Thnx for ur reply imdeng....the reason is...with this it looks like 50% chances for the bill to pass senate in next couple of months...if additions done then it need to pass house again....with all this in mind.....will there be any more movement in EB2I/C? i know CO mentioned there may be.....but if the HR 3012 bill( or) any bill per say doesnt progress any further will not CO maintain the same date for a month or 2 before he makes a decision to move further or retrogress...

is the current date movement not enough incase any of immigration bill is passed in next 3 months or so....

kanmani behen you can tell ur opinion....u also follow the bill more ....:)

[Kanmani]

Mesan

The passing of HR 3012 in the house spilled no impact over the advancement of EB2 PDs in January 2012 visa bulletin . This is purely my opinion .

The bill was already on objection when the Jan bulletin got released, moreover DoS knew nothing is certain until it becomes law. So if they find the inventory is still insufficient, they would certainly move the dates irrespective of where 3012 hangs.

[jackbrown_890]

I hope congress reaches to some deal on payroll tax cut soon.. that is consuming everyone's time. as soon as that deal has reached we may see some movement on other bills. also it will be interesting to see tonight's GOP debate and see if anyone brings up immigration issue,specially high-skilled immigration..

[qesehmk]

guys ... this is my 2 cents for these additions about Irish quota and other bills.

Typically these are indicative of people who are opposed to the original bill but they don't necessarily want to take an anti stance.

Introduction of a paraller bill is meant to generate controversy to kill the original bill. Here is an example: when the original non-discrimination bill was introduced in US senate - it only included non-discrimination on the base of race, religion, age and nationality. It didn't include gender then. The southern democrats (i.e. today's republicans) were opposed to this kind of bill in their true fashion. So some wise guy introduced gender in order to turn southern men against this bill. Fortunately this had opposite effect and the bill became what it is today (i.e. made it illegal to discriminate based on age, nationality, race, religion and sex).

So coming back to HR3012 and what schumer is proposing about Irish quota and this and that - is exactly in the same league as the example mentioned above. So folks - make a note of this in your mind. HR3012 still has a good chance. But Schumer clearly is not a friend of EB-IC people.



Will all these new bills and addition of irish peice to HR 3012...what r the chances of any of this bill becoming law next few months

[imdeng]

I agree.

This process clearly illustrates that when we become GC/Citizens, we must be politically active via our money. Contribute to Senators/Congressman who takes your side on the issues. I wish people waiting for GCs could contribute too - then there will be a better recognition of our voice since politicians will be competing for our money.

Schumer clearly is not a friend of EB-IC people.

[essenel]

So, according to the Washington Post, lawmakers are getting ready to introduce the "BRAIN ACT" to retain high skilled immigrants.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-small-business/post/house-lawmakers-drafting-brain-act-to-retain-highly-educated-immigrants/2011/12/15/gIQAZCiGwO_blog.html

I made the mistake of reading some of the comments. I won't be making that mistake again. There were some very upsetting comments including one by a "Wakjob5" listing hundreds of companies that were "ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor" blaming it for bankruptcies, software failures and what not!! I hope someone sets him straight :mad: :mad: I know that it is best ignored, but this one really got under my skin.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Boy, this is some seriously messed up translation. :p

But the moral of the story from this Chinese article is that,

1. Grassley wants to attach the H1B and L1 amendments to the bill.
[I think most of us will find nothing new in this because H1B and L1 visa issue is Grassley's hobby-horse which he has been riding for too long and wants to attach this horse to every vehicle (immigration bills in this case)]

and

2. The immigration lawyers suggest that senate may pass this bill by the end of the year (again may be may be not, who knows but I think this is unlikely or at least less likely so take it as you want it)

I hope qblogfan can at lest help Google translation service to do a better job next time. :D

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldjournal.com%2Fview%2Ffull_ news%2F16776286%2Farticle-%25E4%25B8%25AD%25E5%258D%25B0%25E5%25A2%259E%25E7 %25A7%25BB%25E6%25B0%2591%25E9%2585%258D%25E9%25A1 %258D-%25E9%2581%258E%25E9%2597%259C%25E5%259C%25A8%25E6 %259C%259B%3Finstance%3Dm3b

[immitime]

The reason that there are multiple bills with the same subject is that Lot of support in Senate. What Grassley can do max is reduce the H1/L1B visas nothing much. the anti business part of his amendment will not be considered. Definitely HR 3012 is a candidate before this year end that is 30/12/2011. Let us wait for the best to happen.

[vishnu]

I agree - there is definitely considerable support in the senate with regards to removal of country caps in employment based immigration (im quite sure they all get how 140,000 people will hardly alter the diversity landscape). Think Schumer's separate bill with the Irish amedment is purely symbolic - why would he also then cosponsor the Agree act. Still think HR 3012 and the Agree Acts are the only meaningful pieces of legislation that will at least be considered. Interestingly, the new BRAIN act involves re-allocation of visas from other area - I'm guessing from the lottery? That can be HUGE!

[mesan123]

Thank Q & Kanmani ...

if it is true as u told kanmani...it is good....


guys ... this is my 2 cents for these additions about Irish quota and other bills.

Typically these are indicative of people who are opposed to the original bill but they don't necessarily want to take an anti stance.

Introduction of a paraller bill is meant to generate controversy to kill the original bill. Here is an example: when the original non-discrimination bill was introduced in US senate - it only included non-discrimination on the base of race, religion, age and nationality. It didn't include gender then. The southern democrats (i.e. today's republicans) were opposed to this kind of bill in their true fashion. So some wise guy introduced gender in order to turn southern men against this bill. Fortunately this had opposite effect and the bill became what it is today (i.e. made it illegal to discriminate based on age, nationality, race, religion and sex).

So coming back to HR3012 and what schumer is proposing about Irish quota and this and that - is exactly in the same league as the example mentioned above. So folks - make a note of this in your mind. HR3012 still has a good chance. But Schumer clearly is not a friend of EB-IC people.


Mesan

The passing of HR 3012 in the house spilled no impact over the advancement of EB2 PDs in January 2012 visa bulletin . This is purely my opinion .

The bill was already on objection when the Jan bulletin got released, moreover DoS knew nothing is certain until it becomes law. So if they find the inventory is still insufficient, they would certainly move the dates irrespective of where 3012 hangs.

[immitime]

So, according to the Washington Post, lawmakers are getting ready to introduce the "BRAIN ACT" to retain high skilled immigrants.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-small-business/post/house-lawmakers-drafting-brain-act-to-retain-highly-educated-immigrants/2011/12/15/gIQAZCiGwO_blog.html

I made the mistake of reading some of the comments. I won't be making that mistake again. There were some very upsetting comments including one by a "Wakjob5" listing hundreds of companies that were "ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor" blaming it for bankruptcies, software failures and what not!! I hope someone sets him straight :mad: :mad: I know that it is best ignored, but this one really got under my skin.

I understand your concern but usually most of the comments in blogs, forums and other internet sites should not be taken as seriously, just ignore people can write anything but Truth prevails always.

[immitime]

Boy, this is some seriously messed up translation. :p

But the moral of the story from this Chinese article is that,

1. Grassley wants to attach the H1B and L1 amendments to the bill.
[I think most of us will find nothing new in this because H1B and L1 visa issue is Grassley's hobby-horse which he has been riding for too long and wants to attach this horse to every vehicle (immigration bills in this case)]

and

2. The immigration lawyers suggest that senate may pass this bill by the end of the year (again may be may be not, who knows but I think this is unlikely or at least less likely so take it as you want it)

I hope qblogfan can at lest help Google translation service to do a better job next time. :D

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.worldjournal.com%2Fview%2Ffull_ news%2F16776286%2Farticle-%25E4%25B8%25AD%25E5%258D%25B0%25E5%25A2%259E%25E7 %25A7%25BB%25E6%25B0%2591%25E9%2585%258D%25E9%25A1 %258D-%25E9%2581%258E%25E9%2597%259C%25E5%259C%25A8%25E6 %259C%259B%3Finstance%3Dm3b

I think this is the English version here.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700207455/Make-visas-fairer.html

Good closing on this article as below.

Further, the claim that highly-skilled foreign workers take American jobs is a narrow argument that ignores broader forces in job creation. Highly-skilled workers contribute to overall employment in ways that lower-skilled workers do not, both in terms of the innovation and ideas they bring to the companies they work for and in terms of their spending power due to the salaries they command. As well-paid consumers, they buy goods and services, increase demand and in effect offset the jobs they take in the jobs they create.

Fixing legal immigration is an important part of addressing illegal immigration, and even if Grassley manages to kill the reform in the Senate, there is hope for progress going forward. President Obama's jobs council supports issuing more high-skilled immigrant visas, as do GOP presidential contenders Mitt Romney and Newt Gingrich.

The Fairness act would be a very small step forward, but incremental progress is still encouraging. We hope members of the Senate will take this opportunity to do something, however small, to reform the country's immigration policies.:rolleyes:

[immitime]

As Per ALIA website

http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=37451

On 12/15/12, in order to release his hold on hold on H.R. 3012, Senator Grassley offered an amendment that would make dramatic changes to the bill including elimination of the family per county limit increase and reducing the employment based per country limit to 15%. Furthermore, his amendment would eliminate the diversity visa program and adds in provisions that would increase enforcement and U.S. worker protections to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs.

Senator Grassley’s amendment was objected to, therefore his hold on the bill remains. While other senators may try to negotiate a compromise amendment with Senator Grassley, at this time it appears unlikely that such an agreement is likely.

[letheQ]

As Per ALIA website

http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=37451

On 12/15/12, in order to release his hold on hold on H.R. 3012, Senator Grassley offered an amendment that would make dramatic changes to the bill including elimination of the family per county limit increase and reducing the employment based per country limit to 15%. Furthermore, his amendment would eliminate the diversity visa program and adds in provisions that would increase enforcement and U.S. worker protections to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs.

Senator Grassley’s amendment was objected to, therefore his hold on the bill remains. While other senators may try to negotiate a compromise amendment with Senator Grassley, at this time it appears unlikely that such an agreement is likely.


Does that mean there was a discussion/debate on H.R.3012?

Is it an formal (or) informal discussion?

[letheQ]

As Per ALIA website

http://www.aila.org/content/default.aspx?docid=37451

On 12/15/12, in order to release his hold on hold on H.R. 3012, Senator Grassley offered an amendment that would make dramatic changes to the bill including elimination of the family per county limit increase and reducing the employment based per country limit to 15%. Furthermore, his amendment would eliminate the diversity visa program and adds in provisions that would increase enforcement and U.S. worker protections to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs.

Senator Grassley’s amendment was objected to, therefore his hold on the bill remains. While other senators may try to negotiate a compromise amendment with Senator Grassley, at this time it appears unlikely that such an agreement is likely.

I don't want to make my mouth dirty . But this Grassley is XXXXXXXXXx.

[gcq]

I don't want to make my mouth dirty . But this Grassley is XXXXXXXXXx.
He is just an anti-immigrant paid by anti-immigrant groups from Midwest. He doesn't care about fraud, american people or the USA.

[immitime]

Does that mean there was a discussion/debate on H.R.3012?

Is it an formal (or) informal discussion?

Probably informal.. formal means it should be recorded in the Senate daily proceedings. Just to lift the hold before presenting the bill. But it seems Sen.Grassley is stubborn on his views as always.

[skpanda]

Immigration-Law (OH Firm) website


There was an important development for this bill in the Senate yesterday. According to AILA, Senator Grassley offered an amendment that (1) eliminated the provisions for the family per country limit increase, (2) proposed to reduce the employment based per country limit to 15%, (3) proposed to eliminate diversiity visa program, and (4) proposed provisions to increase enforcement and U.S. worker protections to the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. As the readers can see from the foregoing proposals, such proposals are something which the Democrat Senators cannnot accept and reportly his amendment was objected. AILA thus reports that his hold on the H.R. 3012 remains in tact. Reportedly, survivality of H.R. 3012 itself is considered dubious.

[letheQ]

It is a setback, but I do not believe the bill is dead yet.

Grassley's amendments are ridiculous. So all he is offering is 15% in EB and everything else either remains the same or gets ADDED from his agenda. Clearly, he is against the FB increase, because he is specifically setting it back to 7%.

I guess, we can assume as 'Removing Hold on H.R.3012 == H.R.3012 becoming a law" .
The petitions and all others efforts should concentrate on killing the HOLD(hurdle)

[immitime]

It is a setback, but I do not believe the bill is dead yet.

Grassley's amendments are ridiculous. So all he is offering is 15% in EB and everything else either remains the same or gets ADDED from his agenda. Clearly, he is against the FB increase, because he is specifically setting it back to 7%.

Exactly. Bill is never dead, max may have to wait for the pay cut issue in Senate now and will go for a cloture vote. with 30 hours debate, I really don't know what will they debate for 30 Hours! I think Sen Majority Leader want to avoid cloture so trying to compromise with Sen.Grassley, but it seems it is difficult

[gcq]

sports,
HR 3012 is going to be passed intact with none of Grassley's amendments. Lately you are behaving a bit strangely. From a cheerleader to a doomsayer.

[immitime]

All these amendments by Sen.Grassley is not valid, because the negotiations failed any way because of some of the democratic and republican senators are not agreeing, they could decide to go for a cloture vote, and yes the bil will pass without any amendments, may not be before Christmas, But we never know.

[Kanmani]

Sportsfan

Grassley's H1/L1 reform(!!!!!)

every employer is required to go to DoL -register for job opening - DoL should scrutinise the recritment process- Employer has to prove DoL that there is no american citizen to perform the required skills - DoL then Certify LCA. So for each and every H1B job , the employer is required to go through these steps ( just like perm)

Employers cannot employ more than 50% of H1b employees.

and lot more annoying regulations which I hate to read further.

[gcq]

Sportsfan

Grassley's H1/L1 reform(!!!!!) is every employer is required to go to DoL -register for job opening - DoL should scrutinise the recritment process- Employer has to prove DoL that there is no american citizen to perform the required skills - DoL then Certify LCA. So for each and every H1B job , the employer is required to go through these steps ( just like perm)

Employers cannot employ more than 50% of H1b employees.

and lot more annoying regulations which I hate to read further.
This means not many employers will hire H1B. They will just outsource everything. If an employer needs to go through all this, why does they need H1 ? THey can straight away sponsor his greencard. For all practical purpose H1B will be dead. That is what Grassley wants.

[TeddyKoochu]

Sportsfan

Grassley's H1/L1 reform(!!!!!) is every employer is required to go to DoL -register for job opening - DoL should scrutinise the recritment process- Employer has to prove DoL that there is no american citizen to perform the required skills - DoL then Certify LCA. So for each and every H1B job , the employer is required to go through these steps ( just like perm)

Employers cannot employ more than 50% of H1b employees.

Kanmani thanks for this summary. I hope HR 3012 passes, we have all suffered enough. Basically by these kinds of amendments on H1B it will virtually shut the door for many people who come via consulting companies. Larger companies will still be able to meet the requirements but since it is so cumbersome they will avoid seeking foreign talent itself. The 50% rule specifically targets consulting companies this provision is there already for the fee structure for H1B. By this agenda of killing consulting companies they will virtually close the door for many IT folks whose large Indian companies are not kind enough to sponsor H1 / L1 for them. I still believe that HR 3012 and all its senate variants 1857 are still very much alive, just hope that these amendments are thrown out in the same way as amendments that were proposed during the house committee debate.

[letheQ]

Its just my opinion!!!
Because 'H1B & GC' are solely controlled by employer , if any individual decides to Immigrate to US are stay in US ,they have to get locked in to the terms of Employers , which is causing all these chaos and the fraud of the employers going unnoticed .

[suninphx]

That's really surprising. Are you 100% sure? What stops all companies from sponsoring candidates with H1Bs in that case? There are many companies that have open jobs with specific skills that can be filled with immigrant candidates right away, but are only specifically advertized for PRs or citizens. Could you please explain?

There are certain procedures to be followed, certain documents to be maintained once you hire h1b. If PR/USC is available who wants to go through all that hassle.

[suninphx]

That's really surprising. Are you 100% sure? What stops all companies from sponsoring candidates with H1Bs in that case? There are many companies that have open jobs with specific skills that can be filled with immigrant candidates right away, but are only specifically advertized for PRs or citizens. Could you please explain?

It is assumed that emploer did a search in 'good faith' for a USC or PR for that job. Nothing is required to be proved on paper as of now.

[immitime]

There is no point in discussing Grassley issue because, the negotiation proposed by him is already dead, Reason no one agreed to it. This is like Steve Kings amendment on Congress while they are doing H.R.3012 voting. Nothing serious.

[mesan123]

Kanmani is 100% right

the reason for them to mention they need PR or US citizen is certain jobs need security clerance and some companies dont want to go through all this immigration hassles....


That's really surprising. Are you 100% sure? What stops all companies from sponsoring candidates with H1Bs in that case? There are many companies that have open jobs with specific skills that can be filled with immigrant candidates right away, but are only specifically advertized for PRs or citizens. Could you please explain?

[suninphx]

There is no point in discussing Grassley issue because, the negotiation proposed by him is already dead, Reason no one agreed to it. This is like Steve Kings amendment on Congress while they are doing H.R.3012 voting. Nothing serious.

Positive side of all this news is there is some development for HR3012 and some negotiations are indeed on.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Exactly. Bill is never dead, max may have to wait for the pay cut issue in Senate now and will go for a cloture vote. with 30 hours debate, I really don't know what will they debate for 30 Hours! I think Sen Majority Leader want to avoid cloture so trying to compromise with Sen.Grassley, but it seems it is difficult

I agree with you that bill may not have died yet. The reason I am saying this is because one thing that no one has bothered to look for is that if Grassley really wanted to kill the bill, he could have done nothing with his hold, just keep sitting tight and let the bill die. Why would he introduce these amendments?

Now here are 2 possibilities.

1. Grassley knows that bill has broad support in Senate. He knows that if cloture is brought, the bill may pass and so he wants to add his amendments and give it a try if not all but at least 1 or 2 amendments are accepted. Worth a shot!!

2. Grassley really wanted to kill the bill but just wanted to show that at least he did offer amendments and did something to let it pass. Now, he well knew beforehand that democrats are going to oppose them and so the bill will die.

Unless Mr. Grassley rises again from his chair and inform us what his real intentions are, we just have to play a guessing game.

[gcq]

For a little history why H1B was introduced. With the current backlog and retrogression due to country caps, it was not practical for employers to hire gc holders if H1B was not available. Let us say your company has an immediate need for an employee for an immediate business necessity. If the employer had to wait for 6 months or more for the perm to be done, then some more time for I-140 to be cleared. Then wait for the employees turn to come up in the GC queue due to country caps, company's competitor would be winning for sure. Which company needs such an immigration system. To circumvent this short coming H1B was introduced so that company could hire people on a short notice and go on with their business. Grassley is trying to kill this convenience and forcing companies to go through the GC process.

If the country cap is in place ( Grassley's 15%) and H1B is reformed as per his requirement, the only people who will end up working here is people from ROW countries. Companies will realize, there is no point in hiring Indians and Chinese for GC anyways as there is country cap. Do we see his evil design ?

[Pedro Gonzales]

That's really surprising. Are you 100% sure? What stops all companies from sponsoring candidates with H1Bs in that case? There are many companies that have open jobs with specific skills that can be filled with immigrant candidates right away, but are only specifically advertized for PRs or citizens. Could you please explain?

I agree with Kanmani. I don't believe there is any wage criteria / ability to hire Americans attached to the H1B. My current firm created a position to hire me, because they knew me and wanted me to work for them. They hadn't tried to hire an American / LPR and failed. My H1B came within 3 to 4 weeks of my getting my offer so they couldn't have tried very hard if they did.

As to your other point on fake desi consultant recruits taking up genuine H1B slots, I couldn't agree more. My wife had a job offer from a fortune 20 company in 2007 that she couldn't join because the H1Bs ran out on day 1. Her lawyers had applied for her visa on the first day but there were so many applicants that people were selected in random. My wife's sister in law got one of those fake H1Bs that year without a job. Needless to say, they didn't talk to each other for many months. :)

Still, as much as I'd support stricter enforcement against fraud, it's a different subject that ought to be discussed in a different bill.

[TeddyKoochu]

Thanks for the perspective Teddy. I did not understand the point of how the 50% rule affects the consulting companies. Not that I support a rule like that, but I was curious to know why you thought the 50% rule was a hindrance. I do agree that by increasing the paperwork, small consulting companies will be negatively affected, and already, many in the financial industry are not sponsoring H1B any longer (my wife experienced that first hand). The *reform* should make it easier for genuine employers to hire talent easily while weeding out the fraudsters. It is possible to do this, and maybe Grassley's reforms do not do it. Grassley might just want to kill the H1B, which needs to be opposed at all costs. However it should not be difficult for interest groups to come up with an alternate proposal that achieve the *right reforms*. Just my opinion, and contrary to what has been noted about me, I remain very positive about the prospects of HR 3012.

Let me give you some history on how this started.
- From early 2009 client letters became the norm, however it was supposed to be a simple client letter. This way USCIS compiled a good list of all clients and client letter RFE's became the norm.
- Early 2010 E2E memo came by which stipulated that the petitioning employer must supervise day to day work. This requirement is almost never followed by Indian consulting companies and big US consulting companies; it is followed by Indian bigwigs.
- Most Indian consulting companies have more than 50% people who are on H1 in fact many large US consulting companies have separate offshoot companies for h1 consultants. Now both these groups will definitely not meet the requirement. With the Zadroga act (9-11 relief bill) these companies already have to pay a higher fee.
Now while it may be true that some consulting companies in the name of profit or their narrow agenda may have treated people badly but there are many good ones. On another note many big companies are treating people from I/C like slaves by filing in EB3 even if they could have possibly filed in EB2. Look at another angle consulting companies may have issues most consultants are just fine they have 4 year engineering college degrees or MCA meaning thereby most of them have gone through the rigors of an entrance exam. The idea of punishing consulting companies also leads to collateral damage by punishing consultants and their families. Some of my views could be biased because Iam also a consultant.

[kd2008]

neelu8 on I V reported that it was good that HR 3012 contents were getting added to other bills. It implies that there is little opposition to it. More likely Senators want to capitalize on it to get their own pet things approved. When everything else fails, people will come back to HR 3012 realizing that anything that is strictly not limited to HR 3012 will get shot down. Senators don't need to add stuff to a bill to poison it, they simply oppose it.

She also said similar "processing" went on in the house but no one was paying any attention.

HR 3012 is not going to get voted on before Christmas or any time soon. It will take its due course and time. Patience and persistence is the key.

[Pedro Gonzales]

For a little history why H1B was introduced. With the current backlog and retrogression due to country caps, it was not practical for employers to hire gc holders if H1B was not available. Let us say your company has an immediate need for an employee for an immediate business necessity. If the employer had to wait for 6 months or more for the perm to be done, then some more time for I-140 to be cleared. Then wait for the employees turn to come up in the GC queue due to country caps, company's competitor would be winning for sure. Which company needs such an immigration system. To circumvent this short coming H1B was introduced so that company could hire people on a short notice and go on with their business. Grassley is trying to kill this convenience and forcing companies to go through the GC process.

If the country cap is in place ( Grassley's 15%) and H1B is reformed as per his requirement, the only people who will end up working here is people from ROW countries. Companies will realize, there is no point in hiring Indians and Chinese for GC anyways as there is country cap. Do we see his evil design ?

Very interesting..... I never thought about a world pre-H1B.

[immitime]

I am trying to understand this. Is the hold by Grassley still valid? Or is Grassley essentially asking the committee to vote on his amendments, and will take the hold back no matter the outcome? If this is just a posturing move by Grassley to please his constituency, more power to him. But I understand that the hold remains, and negotiation is going on to "amend his amendments".

Sports,

Hold by Grassley is still valid Reports shows that there was immense pressure upon Sen. Grassley to lift the hold, so naturally he want to insert his intentions as amendment to the bill which is hardcore and anti busines, according to some of the senators on both sides so negotiations was turn down, by him. but Sen. Majority leader can still pass this bill in its present form calling for a cloture vote (with 30 hours of discussion on present form of HR 3012) so supporting Senators can vote in favour, so 60 votes will pass this bill in its present form. This is only my understanding. For the bill to pass it is not necessary that they need to amend the bill.

[Kanmani]

The bill is not dead , but missed its smooth and silky way to passage indeed.

Anybody watching Senate procedures might have noticed, right before the closing statement from Senate majority reader Reid, he would ask for unanimous consent to pass some HR bills . He would request to suspend the debate and pass the bill and the chair person passes the bill without any objection heard. I have heard only one aye sofar from the floor and that aye is from the senator himself ( usually Reid) who asks for unanimous consent ( at the time of closing the senate floor is left with only clerks )

So our Bill H.R.3012 missed the above procedure only .

We are left with another lengthy procedure ( as explained by immitime in the above post #1035)

[immitime]

I agree with you that bill may not have died yet. The reason I am saying this is because one thing that no one has bothered to look for is that if Grassley really wanted to kill the bill, he could have done nothing with his hold, just keep sitting tight and let the bill die. Why would he introduce these amendments?

Now here are 2 possibilities.

1. Grassley knows that bill has broad support in Senate. He knows that if cloture is brought, the bill may pass and so he wants to add his amendments and give it a try if not all but at least 1 or 2 amendments are accepted. Worth a shot!!

2. Grassley really wanted to kill the bill but just wanted to show that at least he did offer amendments and did something to let it pass. Now, he well knew beforehand that democrats are going to oppose them and so the bill will die.

Unless Mr. Grassley rises again from his chair and inform us what his real intentions are, we just have to play a guessing game.

Yes, this is what I thought too.! May be as people suggested here it may take some months before it passes in the present form, but there is always hope :-) particularly the same kind of amendments failed in congress if you remember the voting during HR 3012 in the House.

[letheQ]

The bill is not dead , but missed its smooth and silky way to passage indeed.

Anybody watching Senate procedures might have noticed, right before the closing statement from Senate majority reader Reid, he would ask for unanimous consent to pass some HR bills . He would request to suspend the debate and pass the bill and the chair person passes the bill without any objection heard. I have heard only one aye sofar from the floor and that aye is from the senator ( usually Reid) who asks for unanimous consent ( at the time of closing the senate floor is left with only clerks )

So our Bill H.R.3012 missed the above procedure only .

e are left with another lengthy procedure .


Does it happened today?

[idiotic]

Who is pressurizing grassley? AFAIK, he is the republican nominated immigration watchdog in senate. Any thoughts on who exactly is driving the negotiations and pressure on grassley?

[gcq]

I apologize again, but pardon me for playing the devil's advocate.

So what if Grassley said let's reform the H1B and remove the country caps?

After knowing that H1B is a "good faith" based system, actually I am surprised that a mere 65000 visas last almost an year (with the exception of 3 bad years in between 2005-2008). 65000 is not a large number compared to even the skilled labor pool in the US. So the "good faith" is working by and large and that part of Grassley's reform is never going to make it. It makes sense for a company to quickly hire an H1B without the drama associated with the PERM.

However he does have good proposals for restricting the number of H1Bs to a certain percentage and redefining prevailing wage. I think we would not see another infamous VSG if the better parts of Grassley's proposals were considered.
No matter what laws are made, there will be people exploiting the system. This is not limited to H1B. It happens at even larger scale on FB side. So fraud is always going to be there in all immigration categories. USCIS has fraud division handling these issues.

H1B has to confirm to LCA requirement for wage standards. That is already in place. This higher median average wage proposal is coming straight from some of the anti-immigrant groups like PG. There are many anti-immigrant groups. This higher median wage is purely their proposal. Grassley is well connected to these anti-immigrant groups.

What is the real solution for H1B ? Double the greencard quota and lift country caps. That way employees are free like a bird and has no stigma or restrictions associated with H1B. Is any of these senators proposing this ? No. Reason being, they are not at all interested in making it easier for anyone to immigrate. They want to make the life of H1B holders hell through additional restrictions.

All these additional restrictions will only lead to more outsourcing. They are worried about their anti-immigrant or pro-union agendas only. Nobody cares about america.

[idiotic]

[QUOTE=sportsfan33;16363]What is the downside of Grassley's prevailing wage proposal?

http://www.immigrateme.com/senator-grassley-kills-h-r-3012/

[jackbrown_890]

We are left with another lengthy procedure ( as explained by immitime in the above post #1035)

I think the best thing can happen to this bill now is, the pressure on Grassley eventually will make him drop his hold..i am assuming pressure is from republicans, specially house republicans such as Chaffetz and others and senators like Mike Lee,,,both said they were going to talk to Grassley..and i am assuming they did.. but once Grassley drops the hold..i think he will be allowed to offer the amendments when there is a vote on the bill..(there is always a possibility Grassley will stand on his position and keep a hold) Dems have Senate majority and they are not gonna allow some amendments to go thru specially removing diversity visas and few other...
I noticed 2 things last night on TV..not too big, but good for LEGAL immigrants..Eric Schmdit was on CNN and allowed cameras first time in their building ..but the important thing is he talked about making visa procedures simple and stuff which helps our cause.. Schimdit is no politician but I think his opinion helps us a littlle since no matter what Google is Huge company and since Brin is Russian immigrant,, GOOGLE supporting us always helps..and specially in National media..big help..
2nd,, GOP Debate last night..I was little disappointed that they didn't talk much about LEGAL Immigrants...I only heard Huntsman talking a little about reforming LEgal immigration and keeping high-skilled immigrants here..

[devi_pd]

CLoture has to be filed to get this bill to debate now. Initially Senate was planning to pass the bill using "Unanimous Consent Agreement" but Grassley came in the way. Now 16 Senators have to sign to file a cloture motion to end the debate and bring the bill to vote. 30 hours max debate is allowed, it is usually much less than this. One Senator can speak for a max of 1 hour. No other business is allowed during Cloture.

Now the only question is whether the Senate leadership considers this bill important enough to make it go throughthis process??

[Prabhas]

Thanks to Kanmani for summarizing Grassley's ammendments and its impact.

Sports buddy!

In simple if Grassley's Amendments were to become a law, it will make USA another UK! I have been in the UK for four years before moving into the USA and the laws are so stringent that require an employer to advertise for a job in the UK and then in the European Union countries and only after that they will be allowed legally to employ a candidate from ROW only if they dont find any in Europe! So, except for companies like TCS, Wipro etc there is no such concept of Desi Employers hiring in the UK! There is no or limited Desi Employer model in the UK! This will literally kill the concept of Desi Employer here, forget about the wage determination & to other additions!!! At least there is a lot of awareness with the candidates applying for H1's these years. Thanks to the internet. So,I believe the so called fraud and misuse has reduced to some extent. But hey, think of it this way...In the 1900's when Irish, German's and other countries migrated into the USA, I am sure there is some level of fraud and misuse by the middle men then. It will happen at any period of time no matter how stringent these laws are! So cheers, Lets hope this HR.3012 gets approved soon!

[Prabhas]

LOL! that was my first post on the blog and didnt knew my Thumps up-emoticon appears right next to my Subject Line. I meant his ammendments a Thums-down. I guess I got it correct this time :-)

[Pedro Gonzales]

ayya ungala aani thaane pidunga sonnom , neenga veetaye idikireengale? ( Tamil friends pls translate this on my behlaf)

My humble efforts....

Bhaisaab, humne sirf keele ko nikaalne ko kaha, aap poore ghar ko gira kyon rahe hain?
Sir, we only asked that you pull the nail out, why are you tearing down the whole house?

[gcq]

sports,
You are probably basing your opinion on your own experience regarding H1B. H1B has to be paid the market wage. That is fair. Current laws already have that requirement in the form of LCA. In your case I guess you are working for a good salary now. That means current laws are working just fine. If some company pays lesser than prevailing wage or any other H1B violation, you can report them to DOL and USCIS. This can even be done anonymously. Fraud prevention and correction systems are already in place. You don't create laws to fix fraud in a system. You institute fraud handling system. Grassley being an anti-immigrant, is trying to kill H1B program itself. This is not good for us, not good for america.

If he wants to introduce an H1B reform on his own, let him introduce a stand alone bill. We will see how far it goes. He has introduced this amendment to kill HR 3012, nothing else.

If somebody wants a higher salary, they can go to an employer that provides it. We shouldn't be asking an anti-immigrant lawmaker to introduce an "H1B reform", so that we can have higher wages. IMO you are generalizing based on your experience.

[Jonty Rhodes]

From Oh Law Firm

Sen. Grassley's proposed amendment was not acceptable not only from the Democrat stand points but also from the Republican standpoints. Accordingly, even if it makes through, hypothetically, the Senate, there is no chance that such amended bill will be able to make through the House. Sen. Grassley was throwing a chip of increasing EB per country limit upto 15% (without eliminating EB per country limit and without incresing FB per country limit to 15% ) to achieve his goal of practical choking of the throat of H-1B and L-1 nonimmigrant professional worker programs to the death, which will result in devastation for high tech businesses, higher learning institutions, and other industries that need foreign brains.

Any surprise?

[PlainSpeak]

sports,
HR 3012 is going to be passed intact with none of Grassley's amendments. Lately you are behaving a bit strangely. From a cheerleader to a doomsayer.
You don't say ....

[qesehmk]

sport thoughtful opinions are valuable regardless whether one agrees w them. Yours are thoughtful and so pls don't be apologetic.

As per H1B L1 amendment, even if one assumes or agrees that those amendments make sense - I would still not advocate for them "NOW" since they are meant purely to cause distraction in HR3012.

Just an opinion. So don't mean to criticize.


I was talking about ONE AMENDMENT and that is prevailing wage and making sure that H1B is not used in salary arbitrage.

Look, let me make my position very clear here.

a) I am an ardent supporter of HR 3012, have been from day 1, and I continue to support it, send elaborate responses to various anti-HR 3012 people (Pedro can testify to this) and I have gone to my state Senators offices 4 times (including one visit this week).
b) I do not know Grassley. He is portrayed as an anti-immigrant and Ron Gotcher went so far as to call him a member of the KKK. Very likely, he may be one. I don't claim that Grassley's amendments are logical.
c) I am not advocating H1B amendments *as a precondition to the passage of HR 3012*. Grassley is doing it. If Grassley never put a hold on this bill, I would debate the H1B amendments in a separate topic if any incidence arose.
d) I have first hand experienced H1B as a tool for salary arbitrage, and I wish it wasn't like this. In no way, I am advocating less friendly conditions for businesses, but what I am advocating is an "economic equivalence principle". Hiring an H1B or a PR/citizen should purely be based upon need irrespective of all other factors, and prevailing wage redefinition is a great way to achieve it. Forget about what everything else Grassley is saying, and just focus upon that one aspect.

If our own grassroots efforts can come up with a sensible bill for H1B reform, the likes of Grassley will never be heard of from again.

In any case, this discussion has diverted too much, and I sincerely apologize. I agree with others that none of the H1B provisions are relevant for the rapid passage of this bill. This is my last post on this topic, and moderators can move it somewhere else. I am an HR 3012 supporter, and ready to look for the next action item blast from the ** :)

gcq - The kind of work an H1B does, a normal employee would expect 20-50% more. My personal experience and gripe is that - i was underpaid by a hundred K or so. Initially when hired, an H1B may be paid similar to a normal employee. But six years is a long time and people tend to be severely underpaid by the time they are in 6th year. So LCA is not effective beyond initial certification.

Secondly, an LCA itself can be manipulated so easily. I don't want to point out who is flaunting LCA without violating the law. But one can guess it!

That said - I do not think we should support any H1B amendments NOW. This is not the time for it.


sports,
You are probably basing your opinion on your own experience regarding H1B. H1B has to be paid the market wage. That is fair. Current laws already have that requirement in the form of LCA. In your case I guess you are working for a good salary now. That means current laws are working just fine. If some company pays lesser than prevailing wage or any other H1B violation, you can report them to DOL and USCIS. This can even be done anonymously. Fraud prevention and correction systems are already in place. You don't create laws to fix fraud in a system. You institute fraud handling system. Grassley being an anti-immigrant, is trying to kill H1B program itself. This is not good for us, not good for america.

If he wants to introduce an H1B reform on his own, let him introduce a stand alone bill. We will see how far it goes. He has introduced this amendment to kill HR 3012, nothing else.

If somebody wants a higher salary, they can go to an employer that provides it. We shouldn't be asking an anti-immigrant lawmaker to introduce an "H1B reform", so that we can have higher wages. IMO you are generalizing based on your experience.

[gcq]

Q,
LCA is never the maximum pay that an H1B employee can get. It is the minimum pay an employee needs to be paid. I am sure majority of H1B holders are paid way above prevailing wage. LCA is just a mechanism to ensure that H1B employee is not undercutting standard wages. The real pay is dependent on our bargaining skills and market value.

[qesehmk]

I would agree that LCA establishes minimum. But wouldn't agree that majority H1B are paid way above that minimum. Majority of employers are smart and leverage H1B to their advantage by keeping the minimum much lower than what they would've to pay for the skill in the market.

Think this way ..... if theoretically if they are not able to hire an american worker in that job - the salary for that job should just skyrocket. Hence the H1B that comes to rescue by suppressing wages in the first place. Secondly the H1B person is almost made slave through GC promise. Thirdly the LCA process is very easily manipulated and so the minimum salary is pittance compared to what an American worker would get in the first place.



Q,
LCA is never the maximum pay that an H1B employee can get. It is the minimum pay an employee needs to be paid. I am sure majority of H1B holders are paid way above prevailing wage. LCA is just a mechanism to ensure that H1B employee is not undercutting standard wages. The real pay is dependent on our bargaining skills and market value.

[gcq]

LCA is a simple process. Employer requests DOL to provide standard wages for a given occupation. DOL provides it, Not sure how someone can manipulate LCA. I have been in this country long enough. I haven't seen a single of my colleagues or friends being paid close to LCA wages. Most of them are paid way above prevailing wages.

Whether we agree or not DOL is the standard for wages. Very high wages is just a dream for the likes on union leaders. If there is a shortage of a particular skillset, companies will just move to a different country where they can hire that skill set at reasonable wages. That is inevitable. Grassley and co with their "H1B reform" is doing just that.

As for the slavery argument. Even gc holders and citizens are bound to their employment to a certain level. That is the best freedom one can get. Solution to that is to make sure that everyone gets their GC in a reasonable timeframe, say 2 years. Increase the number of EB visas and remove the country cap. That is the solution not a more stringent H1B. Our slavery is due to these stringent H1B requirements. Instead of tightening it we should be advocating to relax it so that we can live like human beings.

[qesehmk]

gcq - I am all for abolishing H1B altogether. If an employer wants to hire somebody - just hire that person. If capital (i.e. $$$) can flow freely then why stop human capital?

My point was about current H1B and its leverage to employers. Employers are very smart in understanding H1B and how they can leverage it to their advantage.

p.s. - If you can talk about union leaders then somebody else can comment on Corporate pigs. So lets not go there. Just keep it rational. Just FYI ... the minimum wage in this country has actually declined in real terms over last 3 decades. Generally one progresses in career, starts attending meetings with Directors VPs and sometimes CEOs. And trust me I have been doing all of the above since at least 8 years. That's when one usually starts bashing unions. I have been working with people who have had company planes to fly them around. But I would be a real pig if I lose sight to the common man whether an American or Indian. So personally I never make comments on unions for its the weak that need protection not the strong ones.


LCA is a simple process. Employer requests DOL to provide standard wages for a given occupation. DOL provides it, Not sure how someone can manipulate LCA. I have been in this country long enough. I haven't seen a single of my colleagues or friends being paid close to LCA wages. Most of them are paid way above prevailing wages.

Whether we agree or not DOL is the standard for wages. Very high wages is just a dream for the likes on union leaders. If there is a shortage of a particular skillset, companies will just move to a different country where they can hire that skill set at reasonable wages. That is inevitable. Grassley and co with their "H1B reform" is doing just that.

As for the slavery argument. Even gc holders and citizens are bound to their employment to a certain level. That is the best freedom one can get. Solution to that is to make sure that everyone gets their GC in a reasonable timeframe, say 2 years. Increase the number of EB visas and remove the country cap. That is the solution not a more stringent H1B. Our slavery is due to these stringent H1B requirements. Instead of tightening it we should be advocating to relax it so that we can live like human beings.

[gcq]

I am not bashing unions. I believe unions are needed. I am not a corporate fan either. Both should be balanced. When a worker thinks his pay should be extremely high, he forgets about the business side. Businesses are there to make profits. That is why they exist. As for the attitude of corporate bigwigs, I agree with you there.

However we should not forget that any labor law has to make business sense for any business to exist. That was my point. I am not one sided. I am just in the middle. As employees we often forget the business side.

[qesehmk]

Your desire to be in the middle is good. My view is that hte corporate greed has gone so far to the right that one is going to have to pull it strongly to the left in order to be in the middle :)

Anyway ... that's my last on this topic. Best!


I am not bashing unions. I believe unions are needed. I am not a corporate fan either. Both should be balanced. When a worker thinks his pay should be extremely high, he forgets about the business side. Businesses are there to make profits. That is why they exist. As for the attitude of corporate bigwigs, I agree with you there.

However we should not forget that any labor law has to make business sense for any business to exist. That was my point. I am not one sided. I am just in the middle. As employees we often forget the business side.

[gcq]

http://democrats.senate.gov/2011/12/17/senate-floor-wrap-up-for-saturday-december-17-2011/
Began the Rule 14 process of H.R.3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011.

Rule 14 is a step to bypass senate judiciary committee and place the bill on Senate calendar.

Rule 14 link (http://www.llsdc.org/attachments/wysiwyg/544/CRS-RS22299.pdf)

[Ra.One]

http://democrats.senate.gov/2011/12/17/senate-floor-wrap-up-for-saturday-december-17-2011/
Began the Rule 14 process of H.R.3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011.

Rule 14 is a step to bypass senate judiciary committee and place the bill on Senate calendar.

Rule 14 link (http://www.llsdc.org/attachments/wysiwyg/544/CRS-RS22299.pdf)

Thanks a lot GCQ for the update.

New development....What does this mean?

Does this mean that dems are trying to bring the bill to Senate floor by bypassing the judiciary committee? Can this be done when the bill is on "Hold" by Senator Grassley?

[Jonty Rhodes]

http://democrats.senate.gov/2011/12/17/senate-floor-wrap-up-for-saturday-december-17-2011/
Began the Rule 14 process of H.R.3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011.

Rule 14 is a step to bypass senate judiciary committee and place the bill on Senate calendar.

Rule 14 link (http://www.llsdc.org/attachments/wysiwyg/544/CRS-RS22299.pdf)

Thanks for the link. I went through the article. Hoping to have this become a good development for the bill in near future. It seems the overall support in the senate may be strong for this bill and that is the reason may be democrats are bypassing the committee so they don't have to deal with hostility from Grassley. I hope they consider it on the floor and vote to make it into a law.

[Ra.One]

Read the pdf n it has good info about how a bill in processed under Rule 14 and what are the objectives of it. It does not explicitly say that this can be done when a bill is on "Hold" but the objectives are in line to do the same.

[gcq]

Read the pdf n it has good info about how a bill in processed under Rule 14 and what are the objectives of it. It does not explicitly say that this can be done when a bill is on "Hold" but the objectives are in line to do the same.
Hold is a notification that a senator would not like the bill to be taken up in the senate. It is just a "wish". Senate has procedures to bypass holds and filibusters.

[TeddyKoochu]

http://democrats.senate.gov/2011/12/17/senate-floor-wrap-up-for-saturday-december-17-2011/
Began the Rule 14 process of H.R.3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011.

Rule 14 is a step to bypass senate judiciary committee and place the bill on Senate calendar.

Rule 14 link (http://www.llsdc.org/attachments/wysiwyg/544/CRS-RS22299.pdf)

Thanks for posting all the details. This is a very good development for the bill. If the bill reaches the senate floor directly there is a very good chance of it passing because it is common sense legislation. It only requires a simple majority to pass in the Senate. Thanks to you for posting and doing all background research around rule 14.

[Kanmani]

gcq thanks for the details.

Senate is done with this year's roll call voting. Next vote is expected to be on January 23 2012.

Hope we have enough time to draw attention from the senators ( atleast 60 votes required or 3/5 of the quorum )

[suninphx]

http://democrats.senate.gov/2011/12/17/senate-floor-wrap-up-for-saturday-december-17-2011/
Began the Rule 14 process of H.R.3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011.

Rule 14 is a step to bypass senate judiciary committee and place the bill on Senate calendar.

Rule 14 link (http://www.llsdc.org/attachments/wysiwyg/544/CRS-RS22299.pdf)

This is great development. Thanks for sharing.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Again, thanks for the link, gcq.

Here is a slightly short and a little easy explanation of the Rule XIV in Senate.

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metacrs3965/m1/1/high_res_d/98-389gov_2003Aug04.pdf

Read the second last paragraph because that is the most important part.

A measure placed directly on the calendar under Rule XIV is not guaranteed floor consideration. It must be called up for consideration, either by unanimous consent or by a motion that usually is debatable, like any measure that is placed on the calendar after being reported from committee. In the 107th Congress, only 41 Senate bills and joint resolutions were placed directly on the Senate Calendar; of these, 10 were ultimately passed by the Senate and 7 became public law.

Try to contact Senators and educate other friends and families about it to support it.

Try your best at least till it gets a consideration on the Senate floor by unanimous consent or by a motion that is debatable.

[Kanmani]

Those bills were senate Originated bills which bypassed the Senate committee.

Our Bill had already passed the House judiciary committee and as I mentioned earlier it is very common that any House bill which has an overwhelming bipartisan support is expected to pass by unanimous consent in the Senate and vice versa.



Again, thanks for the link, gcq.

Here is a slightly short and a little easy explanation of the Rule XIV in Senate.

http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metacrs3965/m1/1/high_res_d/98-389gov_2003Aug04.pdf

Read the second last paragraph because that is the most important part.

A measure placed directly on the calendar under Rule XIV is not guaranteed floor consideration. It must be called up for consideration, either by unanimous consent or by a motion that usually is debatable, like any measure that is placed on the calendar after being reported from committee. In the 107th Congress, only 41 Senate bills and joint resolutions were placed directly on the Senate Calendar; of these, 10 were ultimately passed by the Senate and 7 became public law.

Try to contact Senators and educate other friends and families about it to support it.

Try your best at least till it gets a consideration on the Senate floor by unanimous consent or by a motion that is debatable.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Those bills were senate Originated bills which bypassed the Senate committee.

Our Bill had already passed the House judiciary committee and as I mentioned earlier it is very common that any House bill which has an overwhelming bipartisan support is expected to pass by unanimous consent in the Senate and vice versa.

Good to know that. Thanks again.

[Kanmani]

Paragraph 3 indicates (1) that no bill or joint resolution shall be referred to a
committee until after its second reading, (2) that referral to committee after the second
reading is not mandatory, and (3) that unanimous consent is required for a bill or joint
resolution to be read twice and considered on the same day

[Jonty Rhodes]

From Oh Law Firm

12/18/2011: H.R. 3012 Placed on Senate Legislative Calendar

Yesterday, in the Senate, H.R.3012, Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act of 2011, was read the first time on the floor and placed on Senate Legislative Calendar under Read the First Time. It will be interesting to watch how and when this bill will sail through. A bill must be read second time and if motion to proceed and motion to cloture are presented, we will learn whether there will be filibuster by Sen. Grassley.

As a side note, there was a small political development in the State of Utah. Its Senior Senator Orrin Hatch will have to rerun for his seat and there was educated rumor that the rising star House Representative Chaffetz, the sponsor of H.R. 3012, would challenge his Senate seat in the election, but yesterday there was report that Rep. Chaffetz had decided that he would not challenge Sen. Hatch's seat in the coming election and this news was taken as a huge relief for Senator Hatch's political career. One may speculate what might have gone on behind the scene between Sen. Hatch and Rep. Chaffetz relating to the H.R. 3012 which had been on hold in the Senate. Sen. Hatch is one of the longest Senior Senators in the U.S. Senate, and should he lend his hands on this bill, it would help tremendously to crack the barrier. Please stay tuned to this website for the interesting development of this legislation. This reporter is very interested in the move of Sen. Grassley and the sponsors of S. 1983 (numerical limit elimination & Irish visa bill), Sen. Chuck Schumer, Sen. Dick Durbin, and Sen. Patrick Leahy - all heavy weights in the Senate. Very exciting!

As for the timing, the Senate has reaached unanimous-consent agreement yesterday that when the Senate completes its business on 12/17/2011, it adjourn and convene for pro forma sessions only with no business conducted on the following dates and times and that following each pro forma session, the Senate adjourn until the following pro forma session: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 at 11 a.m., Friday, December 23, 2011 at 9:30 a.m., Tuesday, December 27, 2011 at 12 p.m., Friday, December 30, 2011 at 11 a.m.; and that the 2nd session of the 112th Congress convene on Tuesday, January 3, 2012 at 12 p.m., for a pro forma session only with no business conducted D1384and that following the pro forma session, the Senate adjourn and convene for pro forma sessions only with no business conducted on the following dates and times and that following each pro forma session, the Senate adjourn until the following pro forma session: Friday, January 6, 2012 at 11 a.m., Tuesday, January 10, 2012 at 11 a.m., Friday, January 13, 2012 at 12 p.m., Tuesday, January 17, 2012 at 10:15 a.m., Friday, January 20, 2012 at 2 p.m.; and that the Senate adjourn on Friday, January 20, 2012 until 2 p.m. on Monday, January 23, 2012. The House is also adjourned for a constituent work period. During this period, members of the House return to their districts to meet with constituents. House will also have in pro forma session, but no legislative actions will take place until next year.

It thus appears the readers may be able to hold their long breathe for a while to hear exiciting news, if any. Believe me, there will be a lot of things going on during the recess!! In this regards, H.R. 3012 is not quite dead yet.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO YOU, DISTINGUISHED LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE!!!

BTW, I have become "infamous around these parts (red squares) on ** forum from "going to be famous soon (green squares)" overnight suddenly. Probably they saw my post talking about HR 3012 being put on Senate Calendar. I can't believe they think that in this current time where information spreads faster than a jungle fire, EB ROW guys are not looking at every possible news related to HR 3012. They might have thought that once I put the message, EB ROW will find out and jeopardize their efforts. I can understand their concern to some extent but if I had not posted the message, somebody else may have posted it or people will find out in few days in any case. Its not that I posted something very secret which only a bunch of people working behind the scenes knew. It was already on Senate Democrats website and on Oh Law Firm. I mean how much time does it take for someone who devotes a lot of time on these forums and particularly to this bill, to search in Trackitt or Google news items for HR 3012 before the updates and news show up. Unbelievable!!! I am not offended at all but I can very well imagine now why Q left **. Why don't they just remove my post instead if they think its damaging to their efforts? Strange behavior. :D

[qesehmk]

...there was educated rumor that the rising star House Representative Chaffetz, the sponsor of H.R. 3012, would challenge his Senate seat in the election, but yesterday there was report that Rep. Chaffetz had decided that he would not challenge Sen. Hatch's seat in the coming election and this news was taken as a huge relief for Senator Hatch's political career. Jonty .... thanks. The paragraph above is a very good indication that 3012 might indeed pass.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Jonty .... thanks. The paragraph above is a very good indication that 3012 might indeed pass.

Amen!!!!!!!

[vishnu]

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?r112:./temp/~r112lgQ2HP

Was Mr Reid behind bringing the motion? That is great news, no?

[Kanmani]

Senator Reid is the majority leader , hence he is behind all the bills which comes to the floor( likewise Eric Cantor in the house)


http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?r112:./temp/~r112lgQ2HP

Was Mr Reid behind bringing the motion? That is great news, no?

[lalaji]

Update:

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Democrats-move-Irish-immigration-bill-but-GOP-blocks-it-135848473.html

[lalaji]

HR 3012 on risk...

[vishnu]

Still unclear - HR 3012 is still only the removal of caps (no Irish provision) - so what Leahy may have introduced (as per article) is the Senate bill which has the removal of caps + Irish provision. The latter could have been blocked by GOP...

[imdeng]

HR-3012 is not at risk right now. It is under Rule-XIV process in the Senate. Dems have used a lot of Rule-XIV in past few months to bypass a discussion/delay in the committees. This is perfectly fine and it means that the bill *can* be placed on the calendar when the Senate reconvenes. This is a pro-active and strong measure by the Dems. Now, when it gets considered again then Grassley will again have options to delay the voting on the bill. For all of those options, there are counter-options available to Sen Reid and supporters of the bill.

What we need to do is to show our support for the bill to the Senators (call/meet your Senator). This will ensure that when the bill comes again to the Senate floor, there is enough backing to nullify whatever Grassley and his fellow nativists try to do to derail the bill.

[lalaji]

thanks for the clarification, hope this will become law before mid feb 2012....

[gcq]

thanks for the clarification, hope this will become law before mid feb 2012....
lalaji,
If you have a question, pose it as a question rather than making a statement like "hr 3012 at risk". This will spread panic across the supporters. If you want this bill to pass, it is very essential to keep its supporters including you excited about it.

[lalaji]

sorry, going forward will do the same

[kuku82]

FYI, Sen Boozman, John [AR] - 12/17/2011 is a new cosponsor for S.1866 Agree Act (which implies he supports H.R.3012 as well)!!

[kd2008]

Reading a little bit of Senate strategy. Please read http://blog.heritage.org/2011/01/18/how-to-repeal-obamacare-in-the-senate/

Please do not get confused. The link is about "Repealing Obamacare" and not for HR 3012. But it talks about using Rule XIV.


Once the Senate receives the bill, any Senator can use Rule 14 to object to the second reading of the bill. This procedural objection will “hold at the desk” the House-passed bill and allow the Senate to act on the full repeal measure.

Any Senator can use Rule 22 to commence debate on H.R. 2 if they have held the bill at the desk. Rule 22, the filibuster rule,...

Notwithstanding the provisions of rule II or rule ** or any other rule of the Senate, at any time a motion signed by sixteen Senators, to bring to a close the debate upon any measure, motion, other matter pending before the Senate, or the unfinished business, is presented to the Senate, the Presiding Officer, or clerk at the direction of the Presiding Officer, shall at once state the motion to the Senate, and one hour after the Senate meets on the following calendar day but one, he shall lay the motion before the Senate and direct that the clerk call the roll, and upon the ascertainment that a quorum is present, the Presiding Officer shall, without debate, submit to the Senate by a yea-and-nay vote the question: “Is it the sense of the Senate that the debate shall be brought to a close?”

And if that question shall be decided in the affirmative by three-fifths of the Senators duly chosen and sworn—except on a measure or motion to amend the Senate rules, in which case the necessary affirmative vote shall be two-thirds of the Senators present and voting—then said measure, motion, or other matter pending before the Senate, or the unfinished business, shall be the unfinished business to the exclusion of all other business until disposed of.

If any Senator can gather 16 signatures on a cloture petition, then they could file that petition with the clerk of the Senate. This would commence a proceeding that would end with a vote requiring 60 votes to shut off debate on a motion to proceed to a full repeal of Obamacare within two days of the filing of the petition.

Depending on which way the winds blow come Jan 23 or a few weeks after that, we may see a motion for cloture with more 60 votes in Senate and then a final vote on HR 3012.

[sudkal33]

Didn't the E-3 Irish visa thing got added to HR.3012 by Sen.Schumer? If so, assuming this gets passed by the senate, it has to go through the House again to vote on the amended bill.
What are the chances of HR 3012 being turned down at the House, because of the E-3 visa provision?

[kd2008]

Didn't the E-3 Irish visa thing got added to HR.3012 by Sen.Schumer? If so, assuming this gets passed by the senate, it has to go through the House again to vote on the amended bill.
What are the chances of HR 3012 being turned down at the House, because of the E-3 visa provision?

E-3 visa thing did not get added to HR 3012. Sen Schumer proposed a separate bill that had HR 3012 goodness + Irish visa thing in it.

[idiotic]

I know senate went into recess yesterday but it looks like speaker of the house made a sudden U turn not to accept senate's version of bipartisan payroll tax cut bill. So, it looks like senate needs to reconvene again. What will happen to HR3012 as it is already under rule 14. Will it go for another read and if no objection can we consider it passed :cool:

[mesan123]

yeap you are right....definitely senate will not take up other bills till tax cut bill issue is resolved


Yes I too watched this news in CNN , House is gonna reconsider the senate passed bill with an amendment , in that case Senate has to break recess. ( It is also said that Senate is not under complete recess in view of this )

I dont think our bill would get attention during this chaos .

[idiotic]

From Rule XIV document

"Second, at the end of morning business on the next legislative day, which may begin days or even weeks later, the presiding officer directs that the measure be read for the second time. "

Is senate reconvenes for another legislative session to resolve payroll tax cut issue, they need to mandatorily consider HR3012 as per constitution. :)

[idiotic]

Yup. Since house rejected senate passed version, if they decide to agree on another bill worded one letter different from previous versions, then another legislative day in senate is required. Let's enjoy the political circus of payroll tax cut for now.

[desiman]

The No-Brainer Issue of the Year: Let High-Skill Immigrants Stay

Behind Door #1 are people of extraordinary ability: scientists, artists, educators, business people and athletes. Behind Door #2 stand a random assortment of people. Which door should the United States open?

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/12/the-no-brainer-issue-of-the-year-let-high-skill-immigrants-stay/250219/

[lalaji]

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/immigration/T971LTU08N5JTBTM2

[Jonty Rhodes]

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/immigration/T971LTU08N5JTBTM2

Thanks lalaji. This was going to happen. GOP will not let anything go through which has word "illegal or undocumented" in it. Lets see what happens to the bill introduced by Scott Brown and Mark Kirk for Irish which does not have provision for illegal Irish workers.

Having said that, I hope that nutcase Chuck Grassley has to eat crow next year with HR 3012. It will be a thing of immense pleasure to all EB Indian community.

Enough said, I will leave you with one interesting quote from Grassley.

The bottom line is, there have been a lot of nuts elected to the United States Senate. - Chuck Grassley


How apt? But I am sure he is not aware that he is the top one among them.

Merry Christmas.

[lalaji]

http://irishecho.com/?p=68703

Christmas it’s a relative blizzard.
At the same time, the situation surrounding a possible visa bonanza for the Irish is more opaque this week than snowy and bright after a second E-3 bill emerged in the U.S. Senate.

The bill, crafted by Senator Scott Brown of Massachusetts and Mark Kirk of Illinois, both Republicans, in part reflects the first bill written up by Democratic Senator Charles Schumer of New York.

But it differs in one key respect. While the Schumer bill, which is cosponsored by Senators Patrick Leahy of Vermont and Dick Durbin of Illinois, contains a provision granting waivers for undocumented Irish hoping for relief by means of an E-3 visa, the Brown/Kirk measure does not.

And the very existence of two bills in a Congress that will go down in history as a rival to the feuding Hatfields and McCoys is causing concern and uncertainty among advocates for greater legal access to the United States for the Irish.

The Schumer measure, which would allocate 10,000 E-3 visas a year for eligible Irish applicants, came on the heels of a House of Representatives move upping the annual green card numbers for citizens of India, China, Mexico and the Philippines.

It was initially anticipated that the Senate and House measures were to be paired, but the arrival of the second bill has muddied the waters.
The E-3 is not a green card but a two year renewable visa that is granted if the successful applicant secures a job offer. Several countries currently have reciprocal E-3 visa deals with the U.S., most notably Australia.

The Schumer bill, critically, would offer a way for the undocumented Irish to apply for an E-3.

The Brown/Kirk bill, dubbed the Irish Immigration Reform and Encouragement (IRE) Act of 2011, adds the “Republic of Ireland” to the ongoing E-3 visa program, providing 10,500 employment visas that, according to a statement from the two senators, have no limit on the number of renewals allowed.

“The United States and Ireland have a close bond, and our people remain tightly knit through a long history of Irish immigration. Sadly, inefficiencies in our immigration program have resulted in increasingly poor prospects for Irish immigrants,” said Senator Brown.

“This legislation rectifies the decades-long plight by including the Irish in a special visa program that encourages their skilled workers to come to our shores. Legal immigration is the foundation of America, and we must continue to find ways to improve our visa and green card programs, especially when it comes to the treatment of our strongest allies and closest friends,” he said.

The accompanying statement said that the Brown/Kirk bill “recognizes the damage done to Irish immigration prospects in the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 and therefore adds the Republic of Ireland into the E-3 visa program.”

It specifies an annual total of 10,500 employment visas available for the Irish.

It further describes the measure as “a standalone bill that does not include controversial immigration provisions that could weaken national security and rule of law.”

It “recognizes the history between Ireland and the United States, and the importance of increased Irish immigration.”

Action on one or both bills is not anticipated until next month as the Senate has gone into holiday recess.

However, there is already a behind the scenes debate on just where the Irish now stand with two E-3 bills as opposed to one which would have cross-party backing.

Some activists are concerned that there is now an all too familiar partisan divide between the parties on the specific matter of a waiver for the undocumented, though it would appear possible that across the aisle agreement is possible on the matter of E-3 visas for applicants based in Ireland.

The emergence of the bills follows years of lobbying by Irish immigration advocacy groups who ultimately support comprehensive immigration reform, a goal that has proved elusive.

The Schumer bill came into the light of day after a series of meetings between senators and members of the Irish Lobby for Immigration Reform, the Ancient Order of Hibernians, Chicago Celts for Immigration Reform, and representatives of Irish immigration centers in various U.S. cities.

The Irish government is also supportive of an E-3 program similar to the one that applies to Australia.

[self.coach]

HR 3012 was read on Dec 17 on the Senate floor. A bill must be read second time and if motion to proceed and motion to cloture are presented, we will learn whether there will be a filibuster by Sen. Grassley. HR 3012 is quite not dead yet.

Source: http://aegedu.com/blog/hr-3012-placed-on-senate-calander/

[immitime]

The OH law firm reports today: - weblink: http://www.immigration-law.com/ --------------------we all know this already thought will share this.

12/27/2011: CRS Summary of H.R. 3012 as Passed by the House

This summary gives a good picture of this bill, as finally passed in the House and pending in the Senate, in a fashion which lay people can easily read and understand. Again, this bill was passed in the House by absolute majority. It is hoped that this bill be taken up on the Senate floor early in the Second Session of the 112th Congress in one way or another. The Senate will not return to the Congress until after January 23, 2012, though. This legislation will open a new chapter for the employment-based immigration in this country in achieving fairness in employment-based immigrationin system in that it will remove the artifically imposed cap per each country allegedly to achieve diversity in the newly arriving immigrant workers under the current law.Link for CRS summary

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:HR03012:@@@D&summ2=m&

[kuku82]

Interesting article....

http://irishecho.com/?p=68814

[lalaji]

This is latest news about Irish's reform efforts:
http://irishecho.com/?p=68814

"According to the ILIR’s Ciaran Staunton, 53 Democratic senators are lined up to support the Schumer bill which is a Senate companion to an approved House bill, H.R. 3012"

Obviously Schumer's bill S.1983 has got overwhelming supports from Senate Demos. However a well-known fact is, Irish reform must be bond with 3012 to pass House; otherwise if 3012 passes alone, Irish reform will never pass the House by itself. Those 53 Senate Demos of course know this fact, so the question is: who moved original 3012 under Rule 14, and why???

Answer is here:
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Democrats-move...

It says Leahy tried to move S.1983 on 12/16 (Friday) but blocked by GOP. This is important but vague information, leading to such questions:

1. S.1983 was already read twice and referred to Judiciary Committee, what move can Leahy push for?
2. What "block" can happen given that no debate or vote was involved?

It's not difficult to answer these questions with some basic legislative knowledge. A bill referred to Committee must be put on Committee calendar for further consideration/discussion. Who determine the Committee calendar? Grassley and Leahy. Obviously the "move" by Leahy is trying to put S.1983 on Committee calendar, but Grassley refused. Given that Grassley is GOP, and would not like any form of 3012 to pass, he has sufficient reason to stop S.1983 in the Committee.

Now, we have another proof to the analysis above. Yes, that's the 3012 move under Rule 14. Since S.1983 was already referred to Committee, it's no longer applicable for Rule 14, which means Grassley's opposition can sentence S.1983 to death. Given this, the Demos and Leahy selected original 3012 to apply Rule 14, so it can get across Committee and Grassley. That's why 3012 was moved under Rule 14 on 12/17, just ONE DAY AFTER Leahy's failure to move S.1983 (12/16).

What to expect next? Well, given Irish have Leahy/Schumer/Durbin and 53 Senate Demos (of coz including Harry Reid), they will definitely bind Irish reforms with 3012. Then 3012 will be sent to House for whole legislative procedures again. Will House approve 3012+Irish reform? That's something we will see. But anyway, this is another exciting US political show, and all immigrants are invited for free.

[lalaji]

From oh law firm:

12/28/2011: Irish Media Report Expressing Frustration with Two Partisan E-3 Bills Instead of One Bi-Partisan Bill in the Senate

As we reported earlier, the Irish community has been working hard for E-3 visa legislation which is similar to the E-3 visas which are allowed for the Australians. Sen. Chuck Schumer, along with other two leading senior Democratic Senators, introduced as bill as part of their version of H.R. 3012 for which the Indians and Chinese have a huge stake. Unfortuantely, the Schumer bill remains a Democrat bill without a Republican co-sponsor. Later, a Republican Senator from Massachusetts, Sen. Brown, introducted Republican bill for EB-3 visa excluding undocumented alien relief provision and H.R. 3012 provisions. From the perspectives of Irish community, the Schumer bill is preferrable because their undocumented Irish people can receive benefits. Unfortunately, the undocumented Irish provision can trigger a hostility among Republican Senators and conservative Democratic Senators in the Senate. Besides, even if it is passed in the Senate, the Republican majority House may not give a full support which they showed in H.R. 3012 because of the undocumented alien relief provision of the Schumer bill. From the Irish perspectives, they currently have a better chance to achieve the E-3 visa legislation both in the Senate and the House, but it will cripple their initial wish and dream. For the reasons, they are agonizing in predicament. Read on.
From the perspectives of H.R. 3012 sponsors, both Sen. Brown bill and Sen. Schumer bill in a way pose a problem to achieve their dream to achieve the goal of H.R. 3012 by taggingj it to the Irish visa bill. On the other hand, H.R. 3012 still has a problem to make it through in the Senate without the support of Irish community because Sen. Grassley still stands tall to halt the bill. It is quite an unticipated development at this time for the supporters of H.R. 3012. Hmm.....................

[self.coach]

Google's Eric Schmidt was on CNN last night (12/27) and said "its a tragic thing that this country allows thounsands of smart immigrants from India and China to come do their Masters and PHDs and then let them go back to their home country to try out their innovations. We need a way to stop this so that they choose to make the US their permanent homes". I thought it was odd that he said this so emphatically on CNN and hoping he is backing HR 3012 big time.

[immitime]

It will be disastrous to believe the news item coming on Irish site about E-3 and afterwards thinking that it will harm 3012. Irish E-3 Visa is a seperate issue, Nobody tried to attach it with 3012. Schumer have seperate bill and also Scott Brown have one for E-3Visa with and without amnesty. What we are mostly seeing in irish websites are schumer bill they read and waiting for committee. Sen.Shcumer clearly said When he introduced 1983, if this is not going with H.R.3012, he will try other options. All the news item comes until senate is alive again on Jan 23rd is really fear mongering and purely for website traffic. If Irish's are powerful, on the same note tech lobby is more powerful especialy during an election year. We have to wait for Jan 23rd to see the real political drama unveil itself. The order of the day is If there is no news, the speculation of people's mind becomes news Item. Which can be ignored then and there.

Happy New year to All.

[gcq]

It will be disastrous to believe the news item coming on Irish site about E-3 and afterwards thinking that it will harm 3012. Irish E-3 Visa is a seperate issue, Nobody tried to attach it with 3012. Schumer have seperate bill and also Scott Brown have one for E-3Visa with and without amnesty. What we are mostly seeing in irish websites are schumer bill they read and waiting for committee. Sen.Shcumer clearly said When he introduced 1983, if this is not going with H.R.3012, he will try other options. All the news item comes until senate is alive again on Jan 23rd is really fear mongering and purely for website traffic. If Irish's are powerful, on the same note tech lobby is more powerful especialy during an election year. We have to wait for Jan 23rd to see the real political drama unveil itself. The order of the day is If there is no news, the speculation of people's mind becomes news Item. Which can be ignored then and there.

Happy New year to All.
Well said !

[lalaji]

Schumer bill is HR3012+E3, Please refer SEC 1,2 & 3 in the below link

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.1983:

[immitime]

Schumer bill is HR3012+E3, Please refer SEC 1,2 & 3 in the below link

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.1983:

Yes Schumer bill contains H.R.3012 in it. There can be 1000 bills with H.R.3012 on it, before 3012 passes and becomes Law. Each Senators want to have their interest (immigration based) protrayed in an election year, due to various reasons, can be political also. 1983 can go to House for a vote but defintiely not H.R. 3012 in its present form.

The reason they are including H.R.3012 in it is there is a chance at least Senators will look at the bill. The dog seeing Fire Hydrant story again. So no way this bill will affect H.R. 3012 as a stand alone bill. No body added any amendment so far to H.R. 3012 that still remains a stand alone bill.

[lalaji]

thanks for the clarification immitime.

[kd2008]

This is how Sen Grassley's opposition was overcome by Jack Abramoff's lobbying - raising funds for Sen. Grassley's campaign. http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/12/20/144028899/the-tuesday-podcast-jack-abramoff-on-lobbying#more

Sen. Grassley's office maintains it acted au contraire and continued to oppose but we know it was intentionally late and tardy.

hmmmm...interesting..very interesting...

[lalaji]

Update from Oh Law firm:

12/28/2011: Senator Brown Asked Sen. Grassley to Include his E-3 Bill as H.R. 3012 Amendment in the Senate, not Schumer Bill, as Part of his Negotiation for H.R.3012 Compromise?

Hmm....... The development in the Senate surrounding H.R. 3012 amendment by Irish community and dueling of the two Senators involving two different text of E-3 visa for Irish for H.R. 3012 amendment are getting interesting, juicy, snoopy, and thrilling! What an interesting ally to H.R. 3012?! Without doubt, H.R. 3012 has contributed in part to the 'Rising Star' celebrity status of Rep. Chaffetz. Read on.

[jackbrown_890]

Happy New Year to everyone!!!

[whiskeylover]

Happy New Year to you too. Hope 2012 brings better news for HR3012.

[immitime]

Tech lobbies behind H.R.3012...

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/billsum.php?id=128399

[iamdeb]

Tech lobbies behind H.R.3012...

http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/billsum.php?id=128399

Happy New Year to ALL!!:D

Is there anything more we can do to support HR 3012 from our end?

[jackbrown_890]

Happy New Year to ALL!!:D

Is there anything more we can do to support HR 3012 from our end?

:) Happy New year..
Call your area congressmen & ask em to support 3012 and if you have already done that
I would suggest sit tight till right before Senate convenes..and start calling them again..

[immitime]

:) Happy New year..
Call your area congressmen & ask em to support 3012 and if you have already done that
I would suggest sit tight till right before Senate convenes..and start calling them again..

Jack,

For now only Senators! I know you meant Senators..:-)

[lalaji]

Irish lobby is getting stronger

From Oh Law firm update:

The Ancient Order of Hibernians is this week praising the emergence of not one, but two bills in Congress that promise E-3 renewable visas to Irish applicants.

In a statement, The order avoided placing itself in between the two bills, one offered by Senate Democrats, and the other by Senate Republicans, and instead focused on the reasons why Ireland should be the recipient of an E-3 visa deal, much in the way that Australia secured one a few years ago.

The statement, signed by National President Seamus Boyle, and Dan Dennehy, the order’s national immigration chairman, reiterated that since its inception 175 years ago, the AOH has been active in working to improve the lives of Irish immigrants.

The statement, which is reproduced here in its near entirety said: “Now celebrating our 175th year, we continue to live up to the preamble of the AOH Constitution which requires that we encourage an equitable U.S. Immigration law for Ireland, and to cooperate with all groups for a fair American immigration policy.

“In the 1960s, AOH members participated in an effort to prevent removal of the quota of Irish visas by the Immigration Act of 1965. Those concerns were proven as successive economic downturns have left many of the Irish without the option to emigrate legally to the U.S. In the last 25 years, AOH has worked with the Irish Immigration Reform Movement, Irish Lobby For Immigration Reform, as well as many other organizations and government officials from the two nations, and elsewhere, to rectify the quota and restore the important cultural exchange between Ireland and the U.S.

“Current events and developments prove our understanding of the need to work with others to meet this goal. One of the great developments of the recent weeks was a videoconference and one week later a teleconference facilitated by the Coalition of Irish Immigration Centers and the Irish embassy.

“In cities across the U.S., Irish immigration advocates, in many cases seeing and speaking live to each other for the first time, shared ideas on the recent moves by Congress.

“AOH, ILIR and Rep. Bruce Morrison, Boston Irish and Chicago Celts and several other advocacy groups outlined recent work towards an Irish E3 and concerns for the undocumented. We look forward to working with all of the groups towards a successful outcome.

“The second and more immediate development is the introduction of two bills that propose an Irish E3. The first bill was proposed by Senators Schumer, Leahy and Durbin and it was quickly followed by the Irish Immigration and Encouragement Act sponsored by Republican Senators Brown (MA) and Kirk (IL).

“While neither bill solves the undocumented issue, they do address future flow from Ireland. The bills would modify the E3 visa, currently available to only Australia and a few select countries. The modifications would recognize Ireland’s excellent education system and allows Irish Nationals with a ‘leaving cert’ or two years experience in a trade to apply for 10,500 two year renewable visas. We are grateful to the sponsors of both of these bills for their recognition of the longstanding inequities relating to immigration from Ireland.

“Right now, AOH members across the U.S. are meeting and reaching out to their U.S. representatives and senators as part of the initiative to secure “the Irish E3 Visa.” The AOH maintains that Ireland has been extremely supportive to U.S. Homeland Security and Defense with the Shannon Stopover of U.S. Troops coming and going from the War On Terror and the innovations of U.S. Customs and Immigration at Ireland’s Shannon and Dublin airports.

“We are asking Congress to thank Ireland with an E3 as it had Australia in 2005. In this way, with 10,500 annual renewable visas, a secure and legal path to immigration will be restored, preventing the need for Irish people to seek less desirable methods to escape the current economic hardships in Ireland and strengthen the bond between our two nations.”

[jackbrown_890]

Jack,

For now only Senators! I know you meant Senators..:-)

yup "Senators"

[immitime]

Irish lobby is getting stronger

From Oh Law firm update:

The Ancient Order of Hibernians is this week praising the emergence of not one, but two bills in Congress that promise E-3 renewable visas to Irish applicants.

In a statement, The order avoided placing itself in between the two bills, one offered by Senate Democrats, and the other by Senate Republicans, and instead focused on the reasons why Ireland should be the recipient of an E-3 visa deal, much in the way that Australia secured one a few years ago.

The statement, signed by National President Seamus Boyle, and Dan Dennehy, the order’s national immigration chairman, reiterated that since its inception 175 years ago, the AOH has been active in working to improve the lives of Irish immigrants.

The statement, which is reproduced here in its near entirety said: “Now celebrating our 175th year, we continue to live up to the preamble of the AOH Constitution which requires that we encourage an equitable U.S. Immigration law for Ireland, and to cooperate with all groups for a fair American immigration policy.

“In the 1960s, AOH members participated in an effort to prevent removal of the quota of Irish visas by the Immigration Act of 1965. Those concerns were proven as successive economic downturns have left many of the Irish without the option to emigrate legally to the U.S. In the last 25 years, AOH has worked with the Irish Immigration Reform Movement, Irish Lobby For Immigration Reform, as well as many other organizations and government officials from the two nations, and elsewhere, to rectify the quota and restore the important cultural exchange between Ireland and the U.S.

“Current events and developments prove our understanding of the need to work with others to meet this goal. One of the great developments of the recent weeks was a videoconference and one week later a teleconference facilitated by the Coalition of Irish Immigration Centers and the Irish embassy.

“In cities across the U.S., Irish immigration advocates, in many cases seeing and speaking live to each other for the first time, shared ideas on the recent moves by Congress.

“AOH, ILIR and Rep. Bruce Morrison, Boston Irish and Chicago Celts and several other advocacy groups outlined recent work towards an Irish E3 and concerns for the undocumented. We look forward to working with all of the groups towards a successful outcome.

“The second and more immediate development is the introduction of two bills that propose an Irish E3. The first bill was proposed by Senators Schumer, Leahy and Durbin and it was quickly followed by the Irish Immigration and Encouragement Act sponsored by Republican Senators Brown (MA) and Kirk (IL).

“While neither bill solves the undocumented issue, they do address future flow from Ireland. The bills would modify the E3 visa, currently available to only Australia and a few select countries. The modifications would recognize Ireland’s excellent education system and allows Irish Nationals with a ‘leaving cert’ or two years experience in a trade to apply for 10,500 two year renewable visas. We are grateful to the sponsors of both of these bills for their recognition of the longstanding inequities relating to immigration from Ireland.

“Right now, AOH members across the U.S. are meeting and reaching out to their U.S. representatives and senators as part of the initiative to secure “the Irish E3 Visa.” The AOH maintains that Ireland has been extremely supportive to U.S. Homeland Security and Defense with the Shannon Stopover of U.S. Troops coming and going from the War On Terror and the innovations of U.S. Customs and Immigration at Ireland’s Shannon and Dublin airports.

“We are asking Congress to thank Ireland with an E3 as it had Australia in 2005. In this way, with 10,500 annual renewable visas, a secure and legal path to immigration will be restored, preventing the need for Irish people to seek less desirable methods to escape the current economic hardships in Ireland and strengthen the bond between our two nations.”

Thanks to Attorney Matthew OH , that he stopped mixing H.R.3012 with Irish E-3 issue which un-necessary creates chaos in the minds of less informed Folks, As indicated earlier H.R.3012 will pass as it is. with out any amendment for sure as of now.;)

[mesan123]

I hope this happens with in couple of weeks or in a month as soon as senate comes back from recession.....as days pass may objections pop up and also this is election year....fingers crossed...hoping the bill passes at the earliest :)


Thanks to Attorney Matthew OH , that he stopped mixing H.R.3012 with Irish E-3 issue which un-necessary creates chaos in the minds of less informed Folks, As indicated earlier H.R.3012 will pass as it is. with out any amendment for sure as of now.;)

[jackbrown_890]

few weeks old article: some more ammunition if anyone need with some more studies/data

http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/immigrant-entrepreneurs-are-key-job-creators.html

[immitime]

I hope this happens with in couple of weeks or in a month as soon as senate comes back from recession.....as days pass may objections pop up and also this is election year....fingers crossed...hoping the bill passes at the earliest :)


Let it Pass.. ASAP all our prayers and support will increase the passage of this bill in a shorter timeline from now.;););)


few weeks old article: some more ammunition if anyone need with some more studies/data

http://www.inc.com/eric-markowitz/immigrant-entrepreneurs-are-key-job-creators.html

Yeah. The following in above article is the great mantra all the Politicians agree,during election year.

"There's a possibility that we can move on smaller measures that would be less controversial that don't involve comprehensive immigration reform," Anderson says. "That small success may breed larger success."

[jackbrown_890]

I know lot of us want to do something about 3012..but congress is in recess and won't be back till Jan. 23. so I would like to start a debate on what/if we should do (advocacy) after 3012. no comprehensive reform but piecemeal like 3012

Please reply with your suggestions on our options/opportunities to convince someone in congress to more for EB community (options that have chances of being introduced and/or becoming law in 2012)
I am just throwing ideas:
We do have few options but i was thinking of:

* what if we come up with an idea of working with one or more congresswoman for introducing a legislation which includes (with possibly help of woman's rights organizations):
EAD for H4 spouses + exclusion of dependents from EB numbers (because that is not FAIR to H4 dependents that they can't legally work) (another FAIR bill)
the reason behind congressWOMAN is because in my understanding there are lots of H4 dependents who are women married to H1 holder men. (probably more women thn men)
We first need some numbers on the ratio of H4 dependents (male vs female)
We can thn contact Woman's rights group like (NOW) and explain them many women can't work because of this law that dependents of H1 are not allowed to work in USA since majority of H4 dependents are women...(if it is true)
On top of that if H4 spouses can work thn they will have a right apply for their own EB visa separate from their Spouse. if they get their own EB visa thn it will count towards EB visa number and if they don't work thn it should not count towards EB number.....
here the argument could be encouraging them to apply for their own EB visa by allowing them to work and making them independent and if the dependents are not using visa numbers (140,000), they can have a program for next 3-5 years or more by reserving 7% of 140,000 for dependent spouse...which will encourage them to be independent (in this case specially women)
So the argument is the law that h4 can't work actually make and/or in a way paralyzes lot of women to be dependents to their husbands.
Specially in cases like Chinese and Indians since they can't get their GCs for years and they have to stay here on h1/h4 for years..thus h4 holders can't work for years.. unless they get their own h1b..(i don't have the data/numbers to back the arguments) (I may be totally wrong since this was my guess and not majority H4s are women--- or may be majority h4 get h1) please provide information on this if you have any information...

Does any of these make sense???
I am just trying to start the debate on this issue until we become active (when senate comes back)..and there is a possibility people may have already discussed this here or on other forums...
Let me know your thoughts...
Thank you.

[imdeng]

We had drafted a petition sometime back which had the following key points:

1. FIFO for EB Visas without country caps - this turned into HR-3012
2. Do not count dependents in EB visa cap - can be done with an administrative fix
3. Recapture of lost visas - seems politically untenable

Your point above is valid and should be added:
4. Allow dependents (H4) to work and study in the US


I know lot of us want to do something about 3012..but congress is in recess and won't be back till Jan. 23. so I would like to start a debate on what/if we should do (advocacy) after 3012. no comprehensive reform but piecemeal like 3012

Please reply with your suggestions on our options/opportunities to convince someone in congress to more for EB community (options that have chances of being introduced and/or becoming law in 2012)
I am just throwing ideas:
We do have few options but i was thinking of:

* what if we come up with an idea of working with one or more congresswoman for introducing a legislation which includes (with possibly help of woman's rights organizations):
EAD for H4 spouses + exclusion of dependents from EB numbers (because that is not FAIR to H4 dependents that they can't legally work) (another FAIR bill)
the reason behind congressWOMAN is because in my understanding there are lots of H4 dependents who are women married to H1 holder men. (probably more women thn men)
We first need some numbers on the ratio of H4 dependents (male vs female)
We can thn contact Woman's rights group like (NOW) and explain them many women can't work because of this law that dependents of H1 are not allowed to work in USA since majority of H4 dependents are women...(if it is true)
On top of that if H4 spouses can work thn they will have a right apply for their own EB visa separate from their Spouse. if they get their own EB visa thn it will count towards EB visa number and if they don't work thn it should not count towards EB number.....
here the argument could be encouraging them to apply for their own EB visa by allowing them to work and making them independent and if the dependents are not using visa numbers (140,000), they can have a program for next 3-5 years or more by reserving 7% of 140,000 for dependent spouse...which will encourage them to be independent (in this case specially women)
So the argument is the law that h4 can't work actually make and/or in a way paralyzes lot of women to be dependents to their husbands.
Specially in cases like Chinese and Indians since they can't get their GCs for years and they have to stay here on h1/h4 for years..thus h4 holders can't work for years.. unless they get their own h1b..(i don't have the data/numbers to back the arguments) (I may be totally wrong since this was my guess and not majority H4s are women--- or may be majority h4 get h1) please provide information on this if you have any information...

Does any of these make sense???
I am just trying to start the debate on this issue until we become active (when senate comes back)..and there is a possibility people may have already discussed this here or on other forums...
Let me know your thoughts...
Thank you.

[gcq]

I should say I am against any kind of reservation from the 140K pool. We have so little numbers already, so there is no scope for reservation. If they need additional numbers, let the visa numbers go up by that many numbers.

Exemption of dependents from visa numbers is the best option.
If that does not work, dependents should be able to draw visa numbers from FB category and be able to apply for AOS based on their primary's PD in EB category. - a bit twisted logic -- I know

Technically dependents should not draw visa numbers from EB category as their visa is not based on labor certification or I-140. If I am not mistaken in diversity visa dependents are already exempt from visa numbers.

[immitime]

Jack,

There is a proposal for this on reginfo, which states implementation date as 03/2012(admin fix without legislation)

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=200804&RIN=1653-AA56

But I will always suspect this why because previously there was same kind of rule making agenda for filing of I-485 (adjustment of status not exactly but pre-registration when the PD is not current.) for any approved I-140. But this was way back in 2008-2009, our Great Uncle grassley and his companion tails in USCIS leaked the USCIS memo and made it a big issue, Uncle wrote a letter along with 3 other senators to Mr.Mayorkas to stop this. it seems USCIS agreed to it, and it was abandoned.

Uncle is a great hinderance to all the good thinking lawful immigrants.. Uncle should be educated by lobbying for his election campaign ( tons of money, texas farmhouse, private chopper, private planes to use) or in the Senate/Congress this fillibuster rule should be eliminated by amendment. otherhwise no immigration bill or adminfix will be passed on time with out cloture motion as per the political situation today. (eventhough just 6 months before last senate election, Uncle decided not to contest, but for unknown reasons he contested again and won from Iowa.)

Moral of the story: - More than Truth and Justice, Money (so called lobbying and political power prevails.

[jackbrown_890]

I remember reading it on Reginfo long time ago...
may be we should start a petition to support the idea of allowing H4 dependents from Woman's rights point of view by allowing them to be independent..and include this admin fix..
i am sure if we have a petition,,hopefully one of the congressmen/women will notice the petition and may decide to do something about it by bringing up a legislation..if we get support from woman's rights group.
and i agree "lobbying" would be great but if we had that much money...may be ** is doing that with all the money they are getting from donations..


GCQ
i too don't like the idea of any reservation but the reason i mentioned reservation is because it may give n incentive to woman's rights group to give us their full support..
and i said - reserved visas out of 140,000 because,, house is controlled by Republicans and they will not allow any visa number increase at all.. I think bill any increase in visa number will not even make it out any subcommittee in today political climate

[self.coach]

H4 is for spouses..not specifically men or women.


I remember reading it on Reginfo long time ago...
may be we should start a petition to support the idea of allowing H4 dependents from Woman's rights point of view by allowing them to be independent..and include this admin fix..
i am sure if we have a petition,,hopefully one of the congressmen/women will notice the petition and may decide to do something about it by bringing up a legislation..if we get support from woman's rights group.
and i agree "lobbying" would be great but if we had that much money...may be ** is doing that with all the money they are getting from donations..


GCQ
i too don't like the idea of any reservation but the reason i mentioned reservation is because it may give n incentive to woman's rights group to give us their full support..
and i said - reserved visas out of 140,000 because,, house is controlled by Republicans and they will not allow any visa number increase at all.. I think bill any increase in visa number will not even make it out any subcommittee in today political climate

[jackbrown_890]

I know it is for Spouses..but if you read my earlier post. it says clearly,, it is my assumption - (and i am not sure if the numbers/data will support my argument) that majority of H4 are Women..

[immitime]

I remember reading it on Reginfo long time ago...
may be we should start a petition to support the idea of allowing H4 dependents from Woman's rights point of view by allowing them to be independent..and include this admin fix..
i am sure if we have a petition,,hopefully one of the congressmen/women will notice the petition and may decide to do something about it by bringing up a legislation..if we get support from woman's rights group.
and i agree "lobbying" would be great but if we had that much money...may be ** is doing that with all the money they are getting from donations..


GCQ
i too don't like the idea of any reservation but the reason i mentioned reservation is because it may give n incentive to woman's rights group to give us their full support..
and i said - reserved visas out of 140,000 because,, house is controlled by Republicans and they will not allow any visa number increase at all.. I think bill any increase in visa number will not even make it out any subcommittee in today political climate

Good idea, we can create petitons which will give information to the Congressmen/Senators, but without Lobbying nothing is going to move as legislation. And there can be another argument here like if L2 spouses/dependents can work why not H4? Women rights may not be a valuable argument, As Self.Coach said H4 is only for dependents!

[immitime]

Ironically, the reason L2 spouses could work was because L1 was more of a temporary visa that had no chance of leading towards a permanent residency (which changed with EB1C later). With H1B, it was different, because 6 years is a long time that could easily allow someone to file for AoS. That, and also some lobbying would have been involved.

That said, that viewpoint seems to be changing. According to my lawyer, CO was motivated to move the dates because he wanted the H4 spouses to work and fill in the employment in skilled IT sector to generate more revenues for their companies and more taxes for the government. At some point, the monkeys on the capitol hill will "get it".

I also agree that we should not be mixing H4 with women's rights though it is statistically indisputable that the majority of H4s are women. However law does not concern itself with statistics and should be enacted because of its "principles". In principle, an H4 spouse should be allowed to work, because he/she has potential as a human being to seek employment and empowerment that helps everyone in the long run.

Even L1 visa is for 5 years. and 5 years is a long time.

Lawyers concerns and information should be taken always with a pinch of salt. We can see various lawyers predicting and failing miserably. If by the lawyers logic I am suprised why can't they make the date current for all?? more taxes more revenue. is it not? No logic in that argument.;)

[gcq]

CO cannot/do not make policy decisions. He is just another government officer assigned with the duty of allocating visa numbers as per the law. If lawyer/CO thinks otherwise, they are wrong.

[immitime]

I always viewed L1 as a more temporary and restrictive visa, because it does not force the company to pay prevailing wages and changing jobs on L1 is nearly impossible. Yes, their spouses could work, but no one really wanted to work on L1 ever (until the EB1C gates were opened). I had seldom encountered people from L1 applying for AoS until recently (EB1C).

Making the dates current is not practical for several reasons. A) EAD renewal headache, B) The danger of concurrent filing, and C) Political pressure. However the USCIS is looking out for revenue, and the aggressive date movement completely supports that theory. They have to manage an "organized chaos" if you vow - they will inflate the balloon as much as possible without bursting it.

Also, the date movement depends upon CO, and my lawyer had claimed that CO wants H4 spouses to get their EADs ASAP. I had posted this information several days ago on the thread of the predictions. Since my lawyer claims to know CO (and lives in the vicinity on Capitol Hill, where he spent a good many years as a lobbyist), I can take his word for it. My point was that there are some people in the administration already who understand the value that dependent spouses can add to the economy and it will only take some political willpower to change the status quo and start granting EADs to H4 spouses. At a minimum, EADs could be given while the petitioner is waiting to file I485 (after the clearance of I140).

Just one word I would say "Immigration is Broken and they should fix it" ;) Whatever debate we are having here, is not going to make any change. it is what it is.
Yes we can be clear about things with available data.

[jackbrown_890]

So the next question is, if we start a petition, what should be include in our petition..
EB spouses and H4 Spouses are both dependents and lot of times same..so solving EB problem i.e. allowing EADs after clearance of I140 may in a way solve H4 problems too,
And i do understand we don't want to mix woman's rights issue and H4 are not directly co-related but indirectly they,,but not to mix them

back to the main point: so what else should we include in this so called "new petition" in support of d idea of "dependents should not draw visa numbers from EB category"
I do think, keep it small (piecemeal) and not include lot of stuff with it and it will have more chances of being introduced and eventually passing in the congress in this political climate..
anyone wants to take a lead in drafting a petition?

Here is one point from old petition (was created with help of q members and also with help of ** members):

Remove Counting of Family Members towards EB visa Cap.
Today Family members (i.e. dependents of the primary EB applicant) are counted towards the EB cap. It makes the already paltry and artificial EB cap even smaller allowing approximately only 60K true skilled workers to enter the workforce every year.


also words from another petition from Change.org (http://www.change.org/petitions/freedom-to-work-for-h4-dependent-visa-holders)
Currently dependents of certain visa holders are allowed to obtain work authorization in US, whereas this basic right is denied to another class of legal dependents ( H4 Visa holders who are the dependents of H1 temporary work visa holders). This disrupts their career, makes them financially dependent on their spouse,reduce the quality of life drastically which leads to depression, stress and low self esteem.

A change is required in the law to allow these Dependents to acquire Employment Authorization Letter(EAD) to work temporarily in US, like other dependent visa holders like L2,E3,J2 etc.

We need few more points for this petition: help pls
TY