Discussion of Bills that remove the Per Country Limits - H.R.3012, H,R. 213

[whiskeylover]

Wait and watch for now. Two more days to go. Anti-HR3012s have already thrown in the white flag, it seems. But they are gearing up with their false data and dubious arguments and their letters to Senators.

[gcq]

Before house judiciary committee hearing, ** claimed only 2 members will oppose the bill. It was proved true. The bill cleared judiciary committee with a voice vote. Voice vote is seen as an "unanimous support" in house and senate proceedings.

[zenmaster]

I hope the bill clears the house with ease...
I hope the bill clears the senate too...
I hope I'll be able to file for adjustment this fiscal year...
I hope i'll be able to go to India with peace of mind...
I hope. I hope. I hope....
Hope is definately a good thing, may be the best of the things. And no good thing ever dies.... :)

[vizcard]

Who's volunteering to watch CSpan to get the info real time. I'm in a hotel so it's unlikely that I'll have CSpan

[jackbrown_890]

I don't know if anyone here noticed/posted about d change in d Calendar.. but now it seems like 3012 is the first one in the list. If i am not wrong, last week it was third in the list.
FYI, i am not sure if they follow the order of the list from Cantor's site for debate/vote. I hope they do.
http://majorityleader.gov/Floor/

[jackbrown_890]

I don't know if anyone here noticed/posted about d change in d Calendar.. but now it seems like 3012 is the first one in the list. If i am not wrong, last week it was third in the list.
FYI, i am not sure if they follow the order of the list from Cantor's site for debate/vote. I hope they do.
http://majorityleader.gov/Floor/

I just noticed on weekly schedule it was listed 3rd and on daily schedule for 29th it is listed first. Last week, daily schedule wasn't available.
http://majorityleader.gov/floor/weekly.html

[jackbrown_890]

Another thing I noticed on Jason's twitter feed posted by Eric Cantor: (on twitter on 23rd of Nov.)
"Eric Cantor - .@JasonintheHouse legislation (HR 3012) will help ensure America remains the world's most innovative economy in the years & decades ahead"

Cantor also twitted:
"Next week, the House will vote on legislation by @jasoninthehouse (HR 3012) which will improve the process for highly skilled immigrants."

[imdeng]

I think it is a foregone conclusion that 3012 will pass the house. All the news leading up to tomorrow's vote has been positive. Nobody has tried to create an issue out of it. It is under suspension of rules etc etc. It will happen tomorrow.

I am concerned about Senate. The Immigration Sub-Committee of the Senate Judicial Committee is the key. Many senators there are from states that have congressmen as co-sponsors of HR-3012 (Shumer NY, Feinstein CA, Durbin IL, Cornyn TX, Hatch UT) - hopefully they will have some influence on the senators. Republicans are in support it seems and it will depend upon first Chuck Shumer to bring the bill up for discussion and then turning one or more democrats in the committee to vote for the bill. After that it will be up to Harry Reid to bring the bill to vote in the Senate. We will make significant progress tomorrow - but a lot more work still remains to be done.

[essenel]

So, does this mean that it will be up for a vote before 6:30 pm?


I just noticed on weekly schedule it was listed 3rd and on daily schedule for 29th it is listed first. Last week, daily schedule wasn't available.
http://majorityleader.gov/floor/weekly.html

[imdeng]

No - all votes in the house on Tue are scheduled for after 6:30pm. They will follow the order of the bills - but it might be around 7-7.30pm before the vote actually takes place.

So, does this mean that it will be up for a vote before 6:30 pm?

[kd2008]

Today's scheduled vote is a big deal but not yet the destination where we want to reach. We all need to keep ploughing and keep urging other EB2&3 I&C folks to come aboard, make them aware of this legislation, make sure they donate money and time, that they are prepared to make calls when asked etc.

Steeper hills await us after this. Senate is going to be really hard. If certain amendments get attached to the bill in Senate then House may kill it. So we all need to vigilant.

Getting to the finish line is very important. Do not let your guard down till we cross it.

[manubhai]

Today's scheduled vote is a big deal but not yet the destination where we want to reach. We all need to keep ploughing and keep urging other EB2&3 I&C folks to come aboard, make them aware of this legislation, make sure they donate money and time, that they are prepared to make calls when asked etc.

Steeper hills await us after this. Senate is going to be really hard. If certain amendments get attached to the bill in Senate then House may kill it. So we all need to vigilant.

Getting to the finish line is very important. Do not let your guard down till we cross it.

I completely agree. I see too much optimism (which isn't bad) and too much certainty in some messages I read here/trackitt/etc. We are getting satisfied and complacent and the other side is picking up speed. They are now asking for folks to get together and make calls to the senator (coz they too have kinda given up on the bill being passed in the house) and even the small stuff like voting on popvox/opencongress.

Both enthusiasm and fear have a snowball effect. Don't assume that they'll just sit there and complain with nonsensical (un)facts. They can spread enough confusion and false notions that some senators may just back off purely for political reasons.

EVEN AFTER THE BILL PASSES TODAY (which is NOT a given), please don't go out and celebrate. Today's passing (if at all) means NOTHING as far as law is concerned. It is immediately after the passing that we need to get our acts together, start calling the senators over a span of days, etc.

And using one form or another, if you see a message on a message board/news site/etc, that misleads the reader into how bad 3012 is, take it as your job to counter that message with facts... not how this bill effects you personally... but with facts about how it helps USA.

Good luck!

[feedmyback]

I completely agree. I see too much optimism (which isn't bad) and too much certainty in some messages I read here/trackitt/etc. We are getting satisfied and complacent and the other side is picking up speed. They are now asking for folks to get together and make calls to the senator (coz they too have kinda given up on the bill being passed in the house) and even the small stuff like voting on popvox/opencongress.

Both enthusiasm and fear have a snowball effect. Don't assume that they'll just sit there and complain with nonsensical (un)facts. They can spread enough confusion and false notions that some senators may just back off purely for political reasons.

EVEN AFTER THE BILL PASSES TODAY (which is NOT a given), please don't go out and celebrate. Today's passing (if at all) means NOTHING as far as law is concerned. It is immediately after the passing that we need to get our acts together, start calling the senators over a span of days, etc.

And using one form or another, if you see a message on a message board/news site/etc, that misleads the reader into how bad 3012 is, take it as your job to counter that message with facts... not how this bill effects you personally... but with facts about how it helps USA.

Good luck!

Agreed completely. Although the path taken by this bill till now is very encouraging, the political angle of it is very scary. Irrespective of the facts and what this bill does when it becomes law, I feel scared when I think that Senate is owned by Democrats and this bill has been introduced by republicans. If at all it has an easy passage in house it is only because Republicans own the house. Now when it comes to Senate passing it, I just hope Democrats won't feel that if this bill becomes a law the republicans will walk away with all the honors. I hope that a political reason alone will not become a potential reason for democrats to create a problem or slow down this bill in the Senate. Fingers crossed. And we need to do our best to get this through!!!

[Pedro Gonzales]

Agreed completely. Although the path taken by this bill till now is very encouraging, the political angle of it is very scary. Irrespective of the facts and what this bill does when it becomes law, I feel scared when I think that Senate is owned by Democrats and this bill has been introduced by republicans. If at all it has an easy passage in house it is only because Republicans own the house. Now when it comes to Senate passing it, I just hope Democrats won't feel that if this bill becomes a law the republicans will walk away with all the honors. I hope that a political reason alone will not become a potential reason for democrats to create a problem or slow down this bill in the Senate. Fingers crossed. And we need to do our best to get this through!!!

We're reading too much into the bill, I think. This is too insignificant a bill to sway voters one way or the other. Republicans may say, 'we've done our part for immigration', but no voter is going to buy that argument. From the perspective of the legislators, this bill is squarely targeting their business donors and no one else. For that same reason, I don't think the Dems will scuttle the bill in the senate. My fear is that this bill just stays under the radar in the senate and is never brought to a vote, or as sportsfan says, gets pushed out to next year and into the middle of the election cycle. That's why we'll need to get on the phones and mobilize all the grassroots support we can muster.

[gcq]

I don't believe in the argument "it is going to be difficult in Senate". First of all, it is a bipartisan bill -- the key point. Lawmakers don't vote for this on partyline. Both democrats and republicans support this bill. Hispanic caucus supports this, black caucus supports this, pro-business support this, pro-family supports this, Latinos support this, Indians support this, Chinese support this. I don't see a reason why this bill will fail in senate. If it were to fail, it would have failed in house judiciary committee itself. Today house is expected to pass this bill with 90% or more votes. My common sense says if it passes with a 90% vote in house, it will clear senate also with a similar majority. House reps and senate reps represent the same geographical areas. So the senate outcome should be similar.

As for the argument that this bill will be difficult to pass in January. I don't think it will be an issue to get this passed in January as it is a bipartisan bill.

I would recommend not posting feedback about a particular senator's stand in public forum. If needed, Q could create a private thread which will be accessible only to limited members or could use the private messaging feature of the forum.

[self.coach]

Download Android app by Sunlight Foundation for real time updates regarding HR 3012. This app is called "Congress" in the Android Marketplace. Bill information is provided by GovTrack through the Library of Congress. As per the latest update on this app on my phone, HR 3012 will be voted at 6.30PM.

[rdsingh79]

I think the bill will pass senate *if* brought to the floor for voting. But I always worry about other events overshawdoing such "smaller" bills e.g. another economic shock due to Euro collapse....or Israel attacking Iran which shocks the world economy...or may be i am just being paranoid ;-)

[whiskeylover]

It seems like 3012 will be the first one at 4 P.M.
C-Span video says - Next: U.S. House Skilled Foreign Worker Visas LIVE 4 PM ETyeah, I'm tuned into it as well. Good luck to all.

[manubhai]

WATCH HERE:

http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/

[pdmay2008]

Chafetz introducing our bill.

Yes. Listening in C-SPAN Radio. Download iPhone app CSPAN

[gcq]

Rep Steve Cohen from TN talking in support of the bill.

[whiskeylover]

"A country like India with a population of 1.2 Billion is limited to the same number of visas as a country like Iceland with a population of 300,000... and a lot of ice."

love this statement.

[pdmay2008]

Looks like they are very time bound. every one is thanking for getting 50 seconds or so...

[immitime]

Super.... Rep of Virginia is highlighting Biography of Steve Jobs. .... saying to Bill clinton to have 30,000 skilled people he can get the apple techies back here in US soil.. wow that was a direct hit.

[immitime]

There was no quroum in the house to vote so possibly by 6:30 pm.. it will pass without any issues

[self.coach]

Damn..what the heck? The voting is cancelled instead of being postponed to 6.30PM. Why did they drop the bill? Not enough members present?

[self.coach]

Maybe not cancelled...I am not sure how this goes. Anyone here? If enough majority/quorum is not present at 6.30pm what will they do - will they continue voting for it?


Damn..what the heck? The voting is cancelled instead of being postponed to 6.30PM. Why did they drop the bill? Not enough members present?

[manubhai]

I am not sure. My assumption here is that voting (as per calendar) is to happen at 6:30. This was just a "Hellos and Thank Yous" period. Reps/Senators don't decide their votes based on these speeches by other reps/senators. They have already decided. So they don't need to be present for the "Hellos and Thank Yous".

That said... they better be present for voting.

[gcq]

Sorry, I could only get bits and pieces as I was simultaneously attending a meeting, but I don't think the voting is canceled altogether. Is it? I think it will still be voted at 6.30 PM and no one voiced any opposition to this bill. Correct me if I am wrong.
Voting was originally scheduled for 6:30. As all these bills are unanimous consent bills, discussion doesn't matter. That may be the reason that quorum was not present. They will reconvene at 6:30 and proceed straight to voting.

[jackbrown_890]

From the sister websites, it seems like most of the Reps are lazy and do not attend floor debates, and they should return at least to drop the votes as per the House floor schedule. If the quorum (aka > 218 reps) was present, voting might have been possible right now, but it seems like a rarity in case of most non controversial bills.

So we should expect voting at 6.30 PM. However the caveat is if the quorum is not present today, voting won't happen. We will see what goes.

"Because of Members' other duties, a quorum often is not present on the House floor. But any Member may insist that a quorum must participate in any vote that takes place in the House. If a member makes a point of order that a quorum is not present, and the Speaker agrees, a series of bells ring on the House side of the Capitol and in the House office buildings to alert Members to come to the Chamber and record their presence."
but debate conclusion says "The point of no quorum was withdrawn."
So lets wait and see what happens at 6.30

[gcq]

http://majorityleader.gov/Floor/
On Tuesday, the House will meet at 2:00 p.m. for legislative business.
Votes will be postponed until 6:30 p.m.

[jackbrown_890]

Here s little bit more information:
When a point of no quorum is made, no ‘‘business’’ is in order. The point may be withdrawn or withheld until announcement of absence of a quorum, after which the point may not be withdrawn even by unanimous consent.

Withdrawal of a point of no quorum does not require unanimous consent.

Where objection is made to a vote on the ground that a quorum is not present and, pursuant to a special order, the Speaker declares that further proceedings will be put over until the following day, it is too late for another Member to demand tellers on the question, even though the point of no quorum is subsequently withdrawn.

[self.coach]

Why did they not do the same for the subsequent bills HR 2192, HR 1801 and HR 2465? If the quorum is not present for the first, obviously they were not present for all others too? Still I see there was more debate on this - did new reps arrive for the other three?

Anyways, I assume in simple English what you mean is "relax and wait for 6.30 PM", correct?



Here s little bit more information:
When a point of no quorum is made, no ‘‘business’’ is in order. The point may be withdrawn or withheld until announcement of absence of a quorum, after which the point may not be withdrawn even by unanimous consent.

Withdrawal of a point of no quorum does not require unanimous consent.

Where objection is made to a vote on the ground that a quorum is not present and, pursuant to a special order, the Speaker declares that further proceedings will be put over until the following day, it is too late for another Member to demand tellers on the question, even though the point of no quorum is subsequently withdrawn.

[gcq]

Why did they not do the same for the subsequent bills HR 2192, HR 1801 and HR 2465? If the quorum is not present for the first, obviously they were not present for all others too? Still I see there was more debate on this - did new reps arrive for the other three?

Anyways, I assume in simple English what you mean is "relax and wait for 6.30 PM", correct?
Quorum rules need to be followed only if a member raises a point of order for the same. For HR 3012, a member raised point of order, so voice vote was suspended.

[gkjppp]

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/196007-house-on-track-to-approve-visa-changes-aiding-india-china

[vizcard]

They debate all the bills. Plus someone has to raise a motion related to quorum. If no one does, then its not an issue. If someone does, then it gets "postponed" to the voting session.

[kiran_july_2004]

This worked for me...

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house

[soggadufan]

http://www.gop.gov/legdigest/floor

[vizcard]

This worked for me...

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house

Is this bill purely a PD-based system then? So for the next year or so, only India & China would be processed? Is that right?

[gcq]

We need 2/3rds in favor. 290 votes needed.

[girish989]

We need 2/3rds in favor. 290 votes needed.

I see 56 /2 7 minutes into the vote where are the remaining 376 reps ?

[gcq]

Who would be that 2 republican nay votes ? 1 - Steve King for sure.

[longgcque]

Yea - 134
Nay - 5
remaining - 295

[chagas]

Humnnn.... still 150 votes needed with 2 minutes remaining !

[redsox2009]

Bill passed............Yayyyyyyyyyy

[jackbrown_890]

it has passed,,we have enough votes
CELEBRATION:)

[scion78]

290 / 8 I feel like i am watching a cricket match :-D

[kiran_july_2004]

4 minutes into the bill

Yes - 30
No - 2

@6:51 ET...

Yes = 318
No = 11

[vizcard]

Next stop Senate

[jackbrown_890]

I am opening a bottle of TAQUILA and everyone here is welcome to join the celebration of our long awaited first victory

[manubhai]

Folks... Time to prepare your list to make the 20 second calls to the senators.

Celebrate... But don't forget that NOTHING HAS BEEN ACHIEVED YET.

That said, congratulations for the battle victory! War is still ahead!

[dreamer]

Looks like house passed it with >96% majority!!! Lets hope we get the same support in Senate.

[kwho32]

Now do you agree he is not bluffing to get money...?

If possible contribute so that we can see same kind of flying colors in Senate....in house we got YEAs 389 and NAYs 15....which is more than 96%...


I believe Aman is bluffing. 90% sounds too good to be true. IMHO its just to encourage people to contribute. These days no issue has such unanimous support, let alone for HR 3012

[devi_pd]

Only 2 democrats opposed it. This bodes well for the Senate.

[jackbrown_890]

Congratulations 3012 supporters.

[immitime]

Congrats to all... May GOD Bless.. to move this bill in senate as smooth as in Congress and become The Law of the Land before Year 2012 .. that can be a great New Year Gift to long long.............awaiting people in the EB Queue.

Thanks to all who is continously working to have this bill passed

Woooo hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[orthodox]

Gr8, its passed house.

Trackitt is down. Looks like its got bombarded with the users :)

[mesan123]

Good the bill passed yipee :) still senate ahead ......kanmani or someone can you enlighten me behen. how the bill will help us. i know it will remove the per country limit. how will the movement be more if the bill passes. :) and what are chances for the bill to pass in senate and when will it be brought for voting in senate?

[jackbrown_890]

Good the bill passed......kanmani can you enlighten me behen. how the bill will help us. i know it will remove the per country limit. how will the movement be more if the bill passes. :)

if this bill becomes a law..EB 2/3 I/C will get around 34000 total visa for first year and 36000 the next two years and after that there will not be I/C/ROW for EB2/3. Whoever applies first will get d visa first and thus it will be fair to everyone

[mesan123]

Tnx for the answer..so howlong will the wait be for people in 2010/2011 in EB2 if the bill passes senate.


if this bill becomes a law..EB 2/3 I/C will get around 34000 total visa for first year and 36000 the next two years and after that there will not be I/C/ROW for EB2/3. Whoever applies first will get d visa first and thus it will be fair to everyone

[helpful_leo]

Guys,

I am new here. I see some folks like manubhai etc put forward some great suggestions.
However, is it not better that we coordinate things with the main organization (which cannot be named here) and pool our efforts and resources, so that we are not working at cross purposes?

Just a thought - there may be other issues I am not aware of.

[vizcard]

if this bill becomes a law..EB 2/3 I/C will get around 34000 total visa for first year and 36000 the next two years and after that there will not be I/C/ROW for EB2/3. Whoever applies first will get d visa first and thus it will be fair to everyone

it'll take SOFAD for FY12 back up to the 35K number + buffer if CO wants it. We could realistically see Dec 2008 getting current.

[mesan123]

Ok...will wait for ur reply...I was here for last few days...was just watching the thread everyday...:)


mesan welcome back

little busy now . will pm you later

[Pedro Gonzales]

Tnx for the answer..so howlong will the wait be for people in 2010/2011 in EB2 if the bill passes senate.

There were some calcs earlier in the thread separately by Spec and me. A move in FY2012 to Sep 2009, if I remember correctly.

[jackbrown_890]

Tnx for the answer..so howlong will the wait be for people in 2010/2011 in EB2 if the bill passes senate.
My best conservative guess if the bill become law by the end of next month: it will reach dec 08 by the end of fiscal year 2012. Probably early Jan 2009 by the end of fiscal year 2013 and probably mid to late 2010 by the end of fiscal year 2014. This also depends on the Spillover we get for next 3 years..
plus it also depends on other unknown factors like how much spillover will I/C and even other countries will get since few other countries will be not be current after a year or two..
there r few better calculations done on dat here,,please check them for better understanding

[Pedro Gonzales]

Guys,

I am new here. I see some folks like manubhai etc put forward some great suggestions.
However, is it not better that we coordinate things with the main organization (which cannot be named here) and pool our efforts and resources, so that we are not working at cross purposes?

Just a thought - there may be other issues I am not aware of.

Different purposes. At the end of the day we all follow **'s action items because they are clear and concise. Many of us have met with congressmen/senators. Most of us have written letters, made calls, spread the word and recruited others, all of which are equally effective whether performed individually or as a part of **.

Also, this forum believes in transparency, so we focus on calculating the results of the legislation, trying to figure out what the next steps are, etc in an open manner. Rest assured, we're not working at cross purposes with **.

[jackbrown_890]

So as everyone said our next stop is senate:I think Here is something we should focus on:
The rules of procedure in the Senate differ to a large extent from those in the House. The Senate relies heavily on the practice of obtaining unanimous consent for actions to be taken. For example, at the time that a bill is reported, the Majority Leader may ask unanimous consent for the immediate consideration of the bill. If the bill is of a noncontroversial nature and there is no objection, the Senate may pass the bill with little or no debate and with only a brief explanation of its purpose and effect.
Few people have already said here about contacting Reid: my point is the same if we all pick a week and start calling senate members of our region and Harry Reid and ask Reid to ask for unanimous consent for the immediate consideration of the bill at the time of the bill s reported and if it passes, if i am not wrong, it will save us long wait of it going to a committee and subcommittee etc...
so let me know what you think and if you know more about this process of asking for unanimous consent at the time that bill is reported.

[qesehmk]

Kudos to all the people who contributed to this effort!! This will be a great step not just for EB2IC but most importantly for EB3IC when finally cleared by senate.



H.R. 3012 - Passed!

[helpful_leo]

Thanks Pedro. That is helpful.

Look forward to some good discussions here on how to get this thru the Senate.

The fact that Democrats so overwhelmingly supported this in the House is good news, confirming their sensitivity to Hispanic opinion.

[DonDron]

This is amazing. Does it have impact on priority date predictions?

[suninphx]

it'll take SOFAD for FY12 back up to the 35K number + buffer if CO wants it. We could realistically see Dec 2008 getting current.

That's very very conservative estimate IMHO.

[TheTexan]

Any idea when this goes to senate?

[pch053]

Is it fair to assume that if this bill is cleared by the Senate, EB2-I/C PDs might will move even further than what we are expecting now? What will then be the common PDs for all EB2 folks; will it be somewhere around 2009? I think EB3-I PDs will also move past 2002 but the progress of EB3-ROW will slow down significantly.

[LUVSPIDER]

H R 3012 - FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 860

29-Nov-2011******6:56 PM

******QUESTION:**On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Pass, as Amended
******BILL TITLE:*Fairness for High Skilled Immigrants Act

************* Yeas *** Nays ***NV ( Not Voting)
Republican****** 210**** 13***** 18
Democratic******179**** 02***** 11
Independent*****
TOTALS******** 389**** 15***** 29

[LUVSPIDER]

HR 3012 bill will now be presented to the Senate. The Senate will then refer the bill to the Senate Judiciary Immigration Subcommittee where its companion bill sponsored by Sen. Mike Lee of Utah is pending. It will be interesting to watch how quickly this bill will be taken up by Sen. Chuck Schumer of New York, the Chairman of the Immigration Subcommittee. Considering the ticking clock for the recess of the First Session of 112th Congress in December, people may not be able to see any action for this bill until early next year. Please stay tuned. ( Source : http://www.immigration-law.com/Canada.html)

[Gclongwait]

H R 3012 - FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 860

29-Nov-2011******6:56 PM

******QUESTION:**On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Pass, as Amended
******BILL TITLE:*Fairness for High Skilled Immigrants Act

************* Yeas *** Nays ***NV ( Not Voting)
Republican****** 210**** 13***** 18
Democratic******179**** 02***** 11
Independent*****
TOTALS******** 389**** 15***** 29

This is awesome. Not just passing but overall across party support, nearly unanimous. I think its highly likely this will become a law.

[abcx13]

I just saw this on the opencongress website:

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3012/money

A lot of organizations are supporting this bill and no one is opposing.

There is a dollar amount against some senators and congresspeople. Is this what the lobbying groups have contributed to them *specifically* for HR 3012? For some cases, the amount is nontrivial.

Those dollar amounts are not specifically for HR 3012 as far as I can tell. Those are all the contributions that those Congressmen have received from the interest groups mentioned.

More data here: http://maplight.org/us-congress/bill/112-hr-3012/1013214/total-contributions

[sugada]

Its great to know that the HR3012 bill passed with such a great majority, But I feel there are much bigger hurdles ahead. I think that there is every possibility that this bill may face a totally different challenge with the senate. It is not necessary that a bill passed in the house will also pass with the senate, it might very well go undebated and silent considering other priorities. The senate may have a very different view about it. Remember ROW may oppose our favorable view on this bill with which only IC people would see a marginal benefit, and mostly ROW here in US means EU fellows who always gain hidden favorism here. Also as IC people are benefited with spillover, how substantial this bill will benefit IC people? I am not projecting this view from a pessimistic view but wants to see from a pragmatic perspective, so please be easy on your thoughts or correct me where-ever I am wrong. But sure it is an interim time for cheers.

[kwho32]

Mostly we could sail thru senate with less issues...all we need to 61 members to discuss and vote without filibuster. We got more than 96% support in house which means on worst case we can get 80 vote in senate....

Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., who heads the Senate Judiciary panel on immigration, said he planned to move the bill as quickly as possible in the Senate, "where we expect it to find overwhelming support." He said the legislation would "remove outdated constraints that prevent us from attracting the kind of innovators who can create job growth in America."

[immitime]

Mostly we could sail thru senate with less issues...all we need to 61 members to discuss and vote without filibuster. We got more than 96% support in house which means on worst case we can get 80 vote in senate....

Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., who heads the Senate Judiciary panel on immigration, said he planned to move the bill as quickly as possible in the Senate, "where we expect it to find overwhelming support." He said the legislation would "remove outdated constraints that prevent us from attracting the kind of innovators who can create job growth in America."

Please do not forget to add the source... doing it here for you..

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/11/29/house_votes_to_end_country_limits_for_worker_visas/

[abcx13]

Mostly we could sail thru senate with less issues...all we need to 61 members to discuss and vote without filibuster. We got more than 96% support in house which means on worst case we can get 80 vote in senate....

Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., who heads the Senate Judiciary panel on immigration, said he planned to move the bill as quickly as possible in the Senate, "where we expect it to find overwhelming support." He said the legislation would "remove outdated constraints that prevent us from attracting the kind of innovators who can create job growth in America."

I read the AP report in the WaPo but somehow glossed over that line. Thanks for posting it here. Schumer's support should help. Let's see if this gets done before Jan.

[kwho32]

I didn't want to add the source to avoid having another trackitt (sic comments from ROWers) in the comment section...


Please do not forget to add the source... doing it here for you..

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/11/29/house_votes_to_end_country_limits_for_worker_visas/

[whiskeylover]

Congratulations guys.

[qesehmk]

helpful_leo, your intentions are clearly good and so are ours. Many a times an organization is well intentioned, but a few bad apples bring it bad name. Something like that has happened with ** IMHO. We are trying to fill the need to keep things transparent and allow people to discuss things freely. However what is more important is that at the end of the day EB-IC should be relieved of their endless wait. I am confident that's what people on this forum are working towards.


Guys,

I am new here. I see some folks like manubhai etc put forward some great suggestions.
However, is it not better that we coordinate things with the main organization (which cannot be named here) and pool our efforts and resources, so that we are not working at cross purposes?

Just a thought - there may be other issues I am not aware of.

[vizcard]

Looking at these numbers, it almost looks like certainty that this will actually become a law.

quite a few steps before it becomes law so it still could be another 2-3 months before it becomes law given the holidays. This is ofcourse assuming the Senate doesnt want its own ammendments.

[pch053]

In general, how long it takes to place a bill in the Senate after it is voted in favor by the House? Will they have a similar voting in Senate or can they accept/reject a bill based on overall consensus (i.e. without actual voting). The majority so far seems overwhelming and it definitely looks promising to be accepted by the Senate.

[vizcard]

In general, how long it takes to place a bill in the Senate after it is voted in favor by the House? Will they have a similar voting in Senate or can they accept/reject a bill based on overall consensus (i.e. without actual voting). The majority so far seems overwhelming and it definitely looks promising to be accepted by the Senate.

It goes to the Senate Judicial Cmte or whatever its called. they have to "approve" and push it to the Senate floor. The Dem Senator (Murphy?) who is the Chair has said that he would like to push it through soon. There's no set timetable as such but obviously with the holidays, I'm not sure what a good timeline would be. Plus even when the Bill does get to the floor, there is no time limits on discussion/ debate. I don't believe there will be a fillibuster so if it does get to the floor in its current format, it should go through... just a ton of administrative steps in the middle.

[pch053]

This is a related report on the voting:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/11/29/house_votes_to_end_country_limits_for_worker_visas/
It mentions that Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., who heads the Senate Judiciary panel on immigration, plans to move the bill as quickly as possible in the Senate. So, it might not take another 2 - 3 months after all, if this holds true.

[pch053]

This is a related report on the voting:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/11/29/house_votes_to_end_country_limits_for_worker_visas/
It mentions that Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., who heads the Senate Judiciary panel on immigration, plans to move the bill as quickly as possible in the Senate. So, it might not take another 2 - 3 months after all, if this holds true.

[asankaran]

Looking at these numbers, it almost looks like certainty that this will actually become a law.
Thanks, Q. We are working extremely hard with ** and local offices explaining about HR 3012 to get it passed. Everyone in this blog are extremely intelligent and articulate. I would request everyone to get in touch **coordinator and do your part. For the next few week all the bloggers need to turn to volunteers and activists and ensure that we get this bill passed at any cost. EB3 folks this is your last chance. EB2 need not be at the mercy of spillover and ensure that it is always fair. There is tremendous resistance put forth by the antis. One sample is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EB_ROW Please check and see how much opposition and resistance we have to face and overcome.

All the best!!

[qesehmk]

All the best - this is very promising. Especially EB3ICs should indeed stand behind this bill and make calls to senators. I do not think people need to take instructions from anybody outside this forum - especially where they have experienced arrogance, high-handedness, secrecy & poor track record of achievements. Lets leave it that and focus our energies on "doing our part" by simply making calls to your senators.

p.s. - Regarding ROW - I think EBICs need to understand where they are coming from and never ever make it US vs THEY kind of debate. Unfortunately this bill is Zero Sum game. But in this case this is acceptable because of the inherent asymmetries and injustice in the original laws. But once this is passed, the next step of "Increasing Overall EB Limit" becomes easy - since then all countries will come on same basis and put a united front towards that cause. That's how I would talk with an ROW rather than "fight" with them.


Thanks, Q. We are working extremely hard with ** and local offices explaining about HR 3012 to get it passed. Everyone in this blog are extremely intelligent and articulate. I would request everyone to get in touch **coordinator and do your part. For the next few week all the bloggers need to turn to volunteers and activists and ensure that we get this bill passed at any cost. EB3 folks this is your last chance. EB2 need not be at the mercy of spillover and ensure that it is always fair. There is tremendous resistance put forth by the antis. One sample is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EB_ROW Please check and see how much opposition and resistance we have to face and overcome.

All the best!!

[vizcard]

This is a related report on the voting:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/11/29/house_votes_to_end_country_limits_for_worker_visas/
It mentions that Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., who heads the Senate Judiciary panel on immigration, plans to move the bill as quickly as possible in the Senate. So, it might not take another 2 - 3 months after all, if this holds true.

"Quickly as possible" is very different in the world of politics. It could possibly be done before the Christmas holidays but its not necessary to do it. They could very well do it in Jan and make it retro-active to Jan 1, 2012. My guess is that the latter will happen. Again purely a guess.

[Pedro Gonzales]

But once this is passed, the next step of "Increasing Overall EB Limit" becomes easy - since then all countries will come on same basis and put a united front towards that cause. That's how I would talk with an ROW rather than "fight" with them.

I've tried that tact, with some of the smartest non-FIFOers out there. They see it as a veiled threat.
My way of trying to make it not so much us vs. them is to refer to the two sides as FIFOers and non-FIFOers.


"Quickly as possible" is very different in the world of politics. It could possibly be done before the Christmas holidays but its not necessary to do it. They could very well do it in Jan and make it retro-active to Jan 1, 2012. My guess is that the latter will happen. Again purely a guess.
Whenever it passes (if it passes) it will be retro-active to Oct 1, 2011. Since EBROW/M/P will likely have used up more than the 15% reserved visa numbers by then, they will likely become U for the rest of the FY.

[whiskeylover]

I've tried that tact, with some of the smartest non-FIFOers out there. They see it as a veiled threat.
My way of trying to make it not so much us vs. them is to refer to the two sides as FIFOers and non-FIFOers.


Whenever it passes (if it passes) it will be retro-active to Oct 1, 2012. Since EBROW/M/P will likely have used up more than the 15% reserved visa numbers by then, they will likely become U for the rest of the FY.

Seems like tempers have softened since last night passing of the bill in the House. Some non-FIFOers have come to terms with the fact that it might become a law. They're more likely to talk about working together like adults. Ofcourse, it could all be a ruse to mislead FIFOers into letting their guards down.

[immitime]

Thanks, Q. We are working extremely hard with ** and local offices explaining about HR 3012 to get it passed. Everyone in this blog are extremely intelligent and articulate. I would request everyone to get in touch **coordinator and do your part. For the next few week all the bloggers need to turn to volunteers and activists and ensure that we get this bill passed at any cost. EB3 folks this is your last chance. EB2 need not be at the mercy of spillover and ensure that it is always fair. There is tremendous resistance put forth by the antis. One sample is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EB_ROW Please check and see how much opposition and resistance we have to face and overcome.

All the best!!

As you rightly said about everyone in this blog, they do not require a ** to dictate what might be the next step. Definitely most of the members here will do their best to get this bill pass The Senate, resistence and opposition are required in a democratic decision. Ultimately the decision is how the Senators vote and how tech lobby pushes the same way they pushed in the Congress. It is almost a done deal! But we still needs to do whatever we can. ;)

[whiskeylover]

As you rightly said about everyone in this blog, they do not require a ** to dictate what might be the next step. Definitely most of the members here will do their best to get this bill pass The Senate, resistence and opposition are required in a democratic decision. Ultimately the decision is how the Senators vote and how tech lobby pushes the same way they pushed in the Congress. It is almost a done deal! But we still needs to do whatever we can. ;)

The two groups don't have to work together. But they can certainly work towards a common goal using their own methods.

[immitime]

Names of Reps in congress (yes and no) analysis for H.R.3012

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll860.xml

[vizcard]

Names of Reps in congress (yes and no) analysis for H.R.3012

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2011/roll860.xml

Everyone on the Armed Services cmte (NY State) voted No. All others in NY / NJ voted yes. Very curious.

[vizcard]

All the best - this is very promising. Especially EB3ICs should indeed stand behind this bill and make calls to senators. I do not think people need to take instructions from anybody outside this forum - especially where they have experienced arrogance, high-handedness, secrecy & poor track record of achievements. Lets leave it that and focus our energies on "doing our part" by simply making calls to your senators.

p.s. - Regarding ROW - I think EBICs need to understand where they are coming from and never ever make it US vs THEY kind of debate. Unfortunately this bill is Zero Sum game. But in this case this is acceptable because of the inherent asymmetries and injustice in the original laws. But once this is passed, the next step of "Increasing Overall EB Limit" becomes easy - since then all countries will come on same basis and put a united front towards that cause. That's how I would talk with an ROW rather than "fight" with them.

Folks in Texas - Need to reach out to Republican Senator John Cornyn and make your case for HR3012. He is the ranking member in the Judiciary Sub Committee in the Senate. He and Schumer (who is already on board) are the two key players.

[girish989]

I just read this on - http://www.immigration-law.com/


11/30/2011: Two Positive Notes for H.R. 3012

* Lifting annual numerical limitation after three years is tremendous benefits for Indian and Chinese EB green card applicants. There are a couple of additional good news for these EB Indians and Chinese:
o Effective Date: Should this bill be enacted without amendments by the Senate, the law will apply retroactively to October 1, 2011 during when they receive additional numbers.
o Senate Judiciary Immigration Subcommittee Chairman, Chuck Schumer's reported prediction: The New York Times (paper edition) of 11/30/2011 reports that Senator Schumer stated that the bill would be handled swiftly. Accordinly, there is a gleam of hope that this bill could even be enacted before the end of the year! I think the prediction is based on the current Congress that refects a strong bi-partisan support for this legislation.
* Please stay tuned for the Senate action.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Everyone on the Armed Services cmte (NY State) voted No. All others in NY / NJ voted yes. Very curious.

I don't see any NY NJ Congressmen that voted no.

[vizcard]

I don't see any NY NJ Congressmen that voted no.

My bad. It was NC that had the NOs. I scrolled a little too much when I went down the list.

[Pedro Gonzales]

My bad. It was NC that had the NOs. I scrolled a little too much when I went down the list.

that has something curious in it too. Both democrats that voted no are from NC.

[asankaran]

Alert from Fargomen about HR 3012 http://www.fragomen.com/newsresources/xprNewsDetailFrag.aspx?xpST=USAlerts&news=1408

I have the same suspicion that there will no movement this VB. cant back it up with facts

[immitime]

Sen Grassley places hold on H.R.3012 (number usa news I do not know how much value we can give it to this. but need to work on Grassley more to make his thinking proper.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604

[venkimakthal]

Sen. Chuck Grassley to Place Hold on Employment-Based Visa Bill

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604

[abcx13]

Sen Grassley places hold on H.R.3012 (number usa news I do not know how much value we can give it to this. but need to work on Grassley more to make his thinking proper.

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604

:( This is bad news.

For a moment I thought the Republicans might actually possess some intelligence...

From Wikipedia:

A "hold" is placed when the leader's office is notified that a senator intends to object to a request for unanimous consent from the Senate to consider or pass a measure. A hold may be placed for any reason and can be lifted by a senator at any time. A senator may place a hold simply to review a bill, to negotiate changes to the bill, or to kill the bill. A bill can be held for as long as the senator who objects to the bill wishes to block its consideration.

Holds can be overcome, but require time-consuming procedures such as filing cloture. Holds are considered private communications between a senator and the Leader, and are sometimes referred to as "secret holds". A senator may disclose that he or she has placed a hold.

[devi_pd]

This is not good at all for the bill. It will kill it.

[abcx13]

It seems that the Senate will now need to file cloture and get 60/100 votes in favor if Grassley doesn't withdraw the hold. It will need at least 9 republicans to support if all Dems vote for it.

I think the bill just got f***ed.

[gc_usa]

Sen. Chuck Grassley to Place Hold on Employment-Based Visa Bill

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604

hold - An informal practice by which a Senator informs his or her floor leader that he or she does not wish a particular bill or other measure to reach the floor for consideration. The Majority Leader need not follow the Senator's wishes, but is on notice that the opposing Senator may filibuster any motion to proceed to consider the measure.

He is opposing bill , but still it will move on. This time he is going to be a biggest looser.

[gcq]

IMO the only way a bill can pass through senate is by a cloture vote. There is no other way to let a bill through senate without one determined senator filibustering it. As for Grassley, he is known to block all immigration bills. I think this bill will have enough votes to overcome filibustering. For now I would consider this only as game by Grassley which will ultimately be overturned one way or other.

[letheQ]

How about making calls & Sending letters to Mr.Grassley to support . Will that work.

[gcq]

How about making calls & Sending letters to Mr.Grassley to support . Will that work.
Grassley is an anti-immigrant lawmaker (Steve King's "cousin" in the senate ) Calling/Mailing won't work with him.

[Pedro Gonzales]

:( This is bad news.


This is not good at all for the bill. It will kill it.


I think the bill just got f***ed.

A little typical of us Indians, I think, such volatile swings of emotion. Reminds me of how we held our team up as unbeatable when they won the WC, and then wanted them skinned alive when they failed to win a test in England 2 months later.

Nothing's changed between the day before yesterday, yesterday and today. It was always going to be a challenge getting this through the senate, and it still is. There was always a good chance of successfully getting this through the senate and there still is.

I don't believe Grassley will actually resort to a filibuster on something as trivial as HR3012 even if he threatens to. And in any case, if you think you won't get 9 Republican Senators to support a Republican sponsored bill that had 96% of support in the House you are seriously deluded. 3 already sponsored bills that had the provision in it!

Take a deep breath and think this through before putting a gun to your heads.

[uthradam]

Like some others said here, every one knows Grassley will not support any immigration bills. I don't think this is a surprise or there is any thing to panic. Just do what ever we can to support. ** may asked for more support as they may need more resources to get to all the offices in the limited time.

[immi2910]

From **:
Administrator2: Guys, please, I know we all really want to see this through but please, understand that there is a process here, and at the end of the day we are in good shape. Just hang tight and let us do our thing. If it makes you feel any better, we knew this yesterday and knew this was coming almost weeks ahead. Let the process unfold and things will happen. We need not overreact. Its all for good.

[imdeng]

This is a Republican sponsored bill and Republicans showed more support to it in the House than Dems. This was part of Rubio's AGREE Act. This will not be shot down by Republicans. There will be individual opposition (like Grassley in Senate and King in House) - but unfortunately individual opposition carries more weight in the Senate than in the House. Still - I think at this point it is just posturing by Grassley - he gets a lot of money from NumbersUSA type people and he has to show something for it. This will delay the bill a little bit - but Chuck Shumer has mentioned that he is going to push the bill through quickly - and considering that is the chair of the Judicial Committee - I am still hopeful about the passage of the bill before Christmas.



A. The bill will end up collecting dust as everyone goes to vacations and forgets about it
B. The bill will be amended by crazy liberal Dems
C. The bill will be shot down by crazy conservative Republicans
D. The bill will controversial and the Senate is just too timid to touch it and sends it to collect dust

I believe at this point, only C is a legitimate fear. I would like to know if anyone thinks otherwise.

[natvyas]

I'm not an expert but this could be "posturing" .....there is a lot of give and take involved in these corridors of power....who knows grassley wants to cut a deal on a different bill and wants the sponsors to come to the table by doing this

Someone rightly said....let's wait and watch.....this is not unexpected and we should not be naive.....

[nayekal]

Ref https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604
Guys,
This is the reason, he is giving...
"I rise to inform my colleagues that I am placing a hold on H.R. 3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act. This bill would eliminate the per-country numerical limitations for employment and family-based immigrants. I have concerns about the impact of this bill on future immigration flows, and am concerned that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."

We all know that, this bill will not rise the number of immigrants and hence it will not be a fodder for any anti-immigrant groups. Grassley might not have read it thoroughly, if he did, he may not give the statement he made above. There are chances that he might even go back on this (remove hold). But, in case if there are any changes made to this bill right now, then it has to go back to the house. That will take another 3 to 6 months in case if it passes and the bill might be active from OCT 2012, instead of applying retroactively to Oct 2011.

[Ra.One]

See here.....No press releases by Mr. Grassley today on HR3012

http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/press_releases.cfm

You will also find what was released today.

Thanks.

[Ra.One]

Ref https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604
Guys,
This is the reason, he is giving...
"I rise to inform my colleagues that I am placing a hold on H.R. 3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act. This bill would eliminate the per-country numerical limitations for employment and family-based immigrants. I have concerns about the impact of this bill on future immigration flows, and am concerned that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."

We all know that, this bill will not rise the number of immigrants and hence it will not be a fodder for any anti-immigrant groups. Grassley might not have read it thoroughly, if he did, he may not give the statement he made above. There are chances that he might even go back on this (remove hold). But, in case if there are any changes made to this bill right now, then it has to go back to the house. That will take another 3 to 6 months in case if it passes and the bill might be active from OCT 2012, instead of applying retroactively to Oct 2011.


Numbersusa is a dedicated anti-immigrant website. Please do not trust what they have to say about any immigration issues.

[PD2008AUG25]

It's not a hoax. It's now in Congressional Records.

Not sure if link will work, but I can see the thing on congressional records website.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r112:1:./temp/~r112PaC8F3::

[imdeng]

Media narrative on HR-3012 is focusing more on the FB side of the bill.
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/politics/2011/11/30/congressional-bill-could-make-it-easier-for-more-mexicans-to-make-us-home/
Not a particularly bad thing - the bill is now in Democrats' hands - and they are likely to be more amenable to a narrative centered on Latinos. The article also mentions the encouraging comment by Sen. Chuck Schumer.

[qesehmk]

my 2 cents on grassley - i think that is nothing but posturing. Stay positive about the bill. Grassley has to take the stand he is taking. But looking at the house voted on this one - he is going to be alone on this one.

Also note what NumbersUSA says -


NumbersUSA took no position on the bill since it would not change overall immigration levels.


That in itself says this bill is in the best shape it could ever be.

[imdeng]

It was clearly nor a hoax - it was a statement made by Grassley on the Senate floor. However, it was to be expected from someone as anti-immigrant as Grassley. There will now be some sort of negotiation I imagine and he might try to insert some stupid amendment there. Lots of bills get holds in the Senate and then get ultimately resolved - so its not something that will kill the bill given the exceedingly popular support behind it in the house and presumably in the Senate as well. However, the process of either negotiating away a hold or cloture motion to override the hold both will take some time and will delay the passage in the Senate. The delay might just be a few days on the optimistic side to forever on the extreme pessimistic side - the balance of opinion at this time though is on the optimistic side.

Hispanic vote in Vegas might be the key that will force Reid's hand. Plus - at least Rubio (FL) and Lee (UT) are already on board on the R side.


It's not a hoax. It's now in Congressional Records.

Not sure if link will work, but I can see the thing on congressional records website.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?r112:1:./temp/~r112PaC8F3::

[imdeng]

Very positive coverage by Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-01/expanded-visa-law-would-give-u-s-world-s-tired-poor-technologists-view.html

Important/interesting bits:
The stupid hold by Grassley has not gone unnoticed:

After the House passed its legislation on Nov. 29, Senator Charles Grassley of Iowa, host of the upcoming caucuses, promptly placed a hold on the bill, which is expected to have broad support from his Senate colleagues.
A good economic argument for more EB GCs:

Only 15 percent of visas are granted for economic reasons, a policy that undermines U.S. companies competing in a global talent pool. Foreign students account for the majority of computer science and engineering doctorates earned from U.S. institutions. (In 2006, more than 4,500 foreign students earned engineering Ph.D.’s in the U.S., almost two-thirds of the total.) Yet there’s no policy to allow, let alone encourage, them to stay in the U.S. after graduation.
And finally, the awesome conclusion:

There is no reason a bill that passed the House by an overwhelming margin should be stymied in the Senate. For the health of the U.S. economy -- and perhaps for the health of Congress itself -- this eminently passable, aggressively unobjectionable, bipartisan legislation should be approved quickly.

[self.coach]

Imdeng both of us have PD in the same month...whats your date?

Very positive coverage by Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-01/expanded-visa-law-would-give-u-s-world-s-tired-poor-technologists-view.html

Important/interesting bits:
The stupid hold by Grassley has not gone unnoticed:

A good economic argument for more EB GCs:

And finally, the awesome conclusion:

[imdeng]

7th Aug 2009 Self Coach. Its not a bad date - I avoid the nightmare 8th scenario :-)

Imdeng both of us have PD in the same month...whats your date?

[vizcard]

Very positive coverage by Bloomberg: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-12-01/expanded-visa-law-would-give-u-s-world-s-tired-poor-technologists-view.html

Important/interesting bits:
The stupid hold by Grassley has not gone unnoticed:

A good economic argument for more EB GCs:

And finally, the awesome conclusion:

This is absolutely a political move rather than genuine concern for American jobs. Someone needs to explain the GC process to him as I'm not sure if he knows how it works.

[Pedro Gonzales]

A review of Grassley's immigration related press releases http://www.grassley.senate.gov/issues/Immigration.cfm shows a focus on eliminating H1B / B1 / L1 fraud (which in itself is commendable) and perhaps restricting immigration in general (he is against STEM, against OPT and strict policing of all PERM applications). However, I do not see anything overtly racist or anti-India/China on his page. He does seem to have a strong opinion against Infosys on a lawsuit that they are involved in, and seems to think that Indian IT services companies use the H1B to gain expertise prior to outsourcing operations for their clients, all of which may taint his opinion of India on the whole, but I don't see much else of any relevance to HR3012.

In summary, I don't think his hold is the result of any opinions against the bill in itself, but only a ploy to get the administration or other legislators to agree to his longstanding demands for H1B fraud elimination (maybe as an amendment to this bill, but maybe even independently). We'll find out soon enough, I guess.

Here are some of the relevant press releases from Grassley's office.

http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=36205
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=34705
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=33437
http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=29095

[self.coach]

Saw your signature...is your expectation of Jan 2013 assuming HR 3012 passes and made effective immediately, or irrespective of the bill?
7th Aug 2009 Self Coach. Its not a bad date - I avoid the nightmare 8th scenario :-)

[gcq]

Pedro,
Racists will never give an impression that they are racists. Even NUSA recently started claiming they are not anti-immigrant. No one can afford to be a racist or anti-immigrant in modern day. I have been following him for years now. He is always against anything Indian.

It as an anti-immigrant ploy to give an excuse to prevent immigrant friendly bills. It has been NUSA's strategy for years. Either they blame unemployment for not bringing bills or highlight entire H1B program as outsourcing visa. They cannot publicly declare that they are anti-immigrants. So they always find an excuse. Grassley and King works in close co-ordination with NUSA and other anti-immigrant groups.

As for his fraud credentials, I saw this link on trackitt.
http://ytspar.posterous.com/phony-farmers-exposed-michael-crowley-readers

[immitime]

Rather than EB1, EB2 EB3 (specific countries, quota) etc. this bill elminates the discrimination between people who may be Future Americans in the name of Country of Origin! so this is one of the positive point in Senate which all Senators agree.

And the bill never increase any visas or numbers, they are just making this fair for everyone in a First In First out basis.this one is second positive point in favour of H.R.3012

if any one gives any counter arguments for the above points, it may not be valid in a Equal opportunity, Democratic country like US of A.

Fraud in H1B, poor economy, unemployment, etc etc will not be valid against the above two strong positive point.

This bill should be done deal soon.;)

[imdeng]

We now have our first troll and others are soon to follow I am sure. This is the price we pay for being a popular forum. Please take note of the following:

1. DO NOT RESPOND to any flaming/trolling. This only encourages them. This forum is NOT for convincing anybody regarding HR-3012 when they have already made their mind. Please ignore inflammatory posts.
2. Moderators - please be ruthless in deleting inflammatory posts and banning trolls - especially when someone's first post is a trolling attempt.

We do not want this to become another trackitt forum. We focus on analysis, discussion and civil discourse. If someone asks a genuine question then by all means - go ahead and answer - but - if you see a trolling attempt - then please - IGNORE.

[self.coach]

Agreed - everyone is entitled to their opinions but stating opinions (prejudiced or not) as facts should not be encouraged on this forum. If we delete such trolls then we are not being democratic.....so I am against that - is there a way for moderator to highlight such a troll post such a way that the users of this forum identify it as a "to-be-ignored"? Somewhere in the header you can explain the conventions..just a suggestion.

[kuku82]

Guys, can someone explain how it works when a bill is approved by the house and is then passed on to the senate? Does it have to go through the judiciary committee in the senate? Or is it upto the majority leader to place the bill on the floor for a vote without having gone through the senate judiciary? Also, how/where does this 'hold' exactly impact the progress?

If this is already answered, please point me to the corresponding link. I just want to be sure that I am contacting the right people at the right time.

[gcq]

Looking at Grassley's hold pattern, reminds me of Ron's verbiage. Modified for grassley:
Grassley looks at every legislation like a dog looking at lamp posts.

[Pedro Gonzales]

I don't know if anyone's noticed, but Trackitt has become an absolute battleground today. Craziness from both sides. First non-FIFOers carpet bombed it with misleading threads spreading misinformation and now FIFOers are responding with blank message threads. If they don't start moderating that site it will lose eyeballs rapidly.

EDIT: - The moderators seem to have woken up and deleted the blank message threads but it's still pretty awful out there.

[manubhai]

A big difference in fighting style between the samurais and the ninjas was that the ninjas avoided looking the opponent in the eye, and the samurais always did.

The samurais wanted to determine the enemy's next move by understanding the expression and the movement of the eye. The ninja's wanted to hide their own move, but more importantly, went far out to let the enemy think that they were weak, and untrained in the arts. They even attacked the enemy from behind.

The ninjas ultimately beat the crap out of the samurais.

1. Inflaming your opponents (not enemies... just opponents in a discussion) is a big sign of stupidity. I'd love it if you come on to a message board, call me and my country all sorts of names, feel good about it, and go to sleep. But I'm in big trouble if you are calm and collected and instead of calling me names, just "DO" what needs to be done to further your cause.

In summary: If you are on trackitt, please don't inflame non-IC. It serves nothing but make them more likely to gather more support for their cause. Also, PM the IC person and request them to ignore the trolls.

2. Trolls are like plague. If you touch them by responding back to them, you die. (Even if you were a ninja!!)

You get the idea?? Now let's get back to the beautiful work we do on this board, letting them hate us, so that when we have our green cards, we can make them love us.

[PlainSpeak]

Ref https://www.numbersusa.com/content/node/12604
Guys,
This is the reason, he is giving...
"I rise to inform my colleagues that I am placing a hold on H.R. 3012, the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act. This bill would eliminate the per-country numerical limitations for employment and family-based immigrants. I have concerns about the impact of this bill on future immigration flows, and am concerned that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."

We all know that, this bill will not rise the number of immigrants and hence it will not be a fodder for any anti-immigrant groups. Grassley might not have read it thoroughly, if he did, he may not give the statement he made above. There are chances that he might even go back on this (remove hold). But, in case if there are any changes made to this bill right now, then it has to go back to the house. That will take another 3 to 6 months in case if it passes and the bill might be active from OCT 2012, instead of applying retroactively to Oct 2011.

I think the key line here
" that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."
We all know that the numbers are not increasing but what if he wants to reduce the numbers. His statement says "bill does nothing to protect" so he might want to include an addendum to reduce visa numbers

[helpful_leo]

Guys,

Does anyone here think it important to rebut the anti-FIFO arguments being sent to Grassley & other senators, some of which may superficially sound credible, e.g.:

HR 3012 will end up giving disporoportionately more visas to IT folks at the cost of Drs & nurses "working in rural Iowa", the underlying assumption being IC are more IT people and ROW is more Drs/ nurses /PhDs, etc.

Except that this ignores the fact that the highest number of international doctors in the US are Indians:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/about-ama/our-people/member-groups-sections/international-medical-graduates/imgs-in-united-states/imgs-country-origin.page

Many nurses in the US are Indian (& Filipino).

Almost 80-90% of international PhDs in the US are Chinese or Indian (many of whom have to apply in EB2).


I tried to ask this on ** - but the post got deleted. Maybe they did not want the (wrong) argument get publicity.

[gcq]

helpful_leo,
no point in writing to grassley. He will never change his stance. He is an anti-immigrant to the core. Let them feed him all trash. If he replays their argument, he will be mocked at.

[PlainSpeak]

Plainspeak: yes, I did think about it and that's why I am much less anxious, because I think Grassley is just trying to get his crazy Steve King amendment into this bill (kill EB3 altogether). The EB3-ROWers are too stupid to realize why Grassley is actually opposing the bill. They have convinced themselves that *anything* to prevent this bill will be a win for them. But at the time of high unemployment and public resentment, the EB program and specifically and EB3 category will be the first one to fall if at all.

helpful_leo: When I first read the EB3-ROW argument, I was genuinely scared, because it did make sense! However once I thought about it a little, I realized that EB3-ROWers are using EB1 and EB2 professions to make the argument. Most of the doctors are in EB2 and I am not exactly sure how many nurses the US needs at this point in time. America produces far more nurses than IT professionals. Practically every housewife here has at least thought of becoming a nurse. If you think Americans are sore over the IT influx, wait until they hear about EB3 nurses.

Also, I realized that EB3 is flooded by our South Asian friends, Pakistani and Bangladeshis. Most of the first world countries have very little stake in EB3, and hence they won't be impacted much by 3012. Check the 2010 report on green card issuance in the EB category. First world countries get a majority of their green cards in EB1. Their "skilled" workers don't need to come to the US, because they have their jobs, a first world lifestyle and a better social safety net right at home. Once we realize this, things are now more transparent. What are the rest of the EB3-ROWers doing? What great need are they filling in America that they find themselves as absolutely essential and Indian IT managers as superfluous? Why is IT so maligned and targeted and used in scare mongering tactics? Aren't the Senators going to realize that the opposition is not really coming from "the rest of the world", but only from "Pakistan/Bangladesh/Russia" for EB3 jobs that could be deemed equally superfluous as the Indian IT jobs?

And yes, you could also make arguments about the doctors from India and the PhDs Indians/Chinese are getting in STEM.

BTW what happened to all the pro 3012 folks on trackitt. I don't see anyone and the ROW people have started multiple thread with all trash in it and going gaga all over?

[orthodox]

I am kinda addicted to Trackitt these days. Not that I am posting anything there, but I am just reading a posts from all the shenanigans and having my daily dose of laugh :)

[gcq]

To those arguments against IT folks. These ROW guys think IT is the most despised pool in H1B. Dead wrong, H1B was instituted primarily for IT folks. IT is the field where there was shortage in large numbers. Even today, there is shortage of IT folks.

To hear it from Lamar Smith, here is the statement from Lamar Smith on March 31, 2011.
Hearing on H-1B Visas: Designing a Program to Meet the Needs of the U.S. Economy and U.S. Workers (http://judiciary.house.gov/news/03312011.html)

Chairman Smith: The H-1B visa program plays a vital role in our economy. It allows American employers to hire talented foreign students graduating from U.S. universities with degrees in science, technology, engineering and math fields.

It gives these students a try-out period so that American employers can determine which are talented enough to deserve permanent residence. These foreign scholars are part of America’s present and future competiveness.

These students have the potential to come up with an invention that can save thousands of lives or jump-start a whole new industry. They also have the ability to found a company that can provide jobs to tens of thousands of American workers.

It appears that doctorates lead to much more invention than bachelor’s or master’s degrees. Sixteen percent of those with doctorates were named as inventors on a patent application, while only two percent of those with bachelor’s degrees and five percent of those with master’s degrees were named.

Not all H-1B visas go to workers in scientific fields. In 2009, only 35 percent of all initial H-1B approvals went to workers in computer-related fields.

Foreign workers are receiving H-1B visas to work as fashion models, dancers, and as chefs, photographers, and social workers. There is nothing wrong with those occupations, but I’m not sure that foreign fashion models and pastry chefs are as crucial to our success in the global economy as are computer scientists.

The 65,000 base annual quota of H-1B visas is going to come under more and more pressure as the economy improves. If Congress doesn’t act to increase the H-1B cap, then we may need to examine what sort of workers qualify for H-1B visas.

Congress also will have to ensure that the L and B visa programs are not abused by employers seeking ways around the H-1B cap. No matter how generous our legal immigration system is, there will always be individuals who seek to game the process.

The H-1B program has safeguards built into it to protect the interests of American workers. It is a subject of great dispute as to whether those safeguards are sufficient. The Government Accountability Office recently found that H-1B employers categorize over half of their H-1B workers as entry level – which is defined as “perform[ing] routine tasks that require limited, if any exercise of judgment” – and only six percent as fully competent. Are all these entry level workers really the “best and brightest”?

The dollar differences are not trivial. In New York City, the prevailing wage for a computer systems engineer in systems software is $68,370 for an entry level worker and $120,037 for a fully competent worker. Are American workers losing out to entry level foreign workers?

We also need to safeguard national security. The Government Accountability Office recently found that the U.S. government approved over one million H-1B visas to foreign nationals from 13 “countries of concern” – the names of the countries withheld for security reasons.

I am also concerned about the legacy of fraud in the H-1B program. At a hearing over a decade ago, we heard about petitioning companies that were nothing more than a P.O. Box, an abandoned building or a fictitious address and single telephone number. We heard about H-1B workers slated for employment as janitors or nurse’s aides or store clerks.

Apparently, such fraud is not a thing of the past, despite a $500 anti-fraud fee that was instituted in 2004. In 2008, USCIS’s Office of Fraud Detection and National Security issued an assessment that found outright fraud in over 13% of randomly selected cases.

Still, the H-1B program usually does operate to the benefit of America, American employers – especially high tech employers -- and American workers. It is the job of Congress to ensure that it always does.

[helpful_leo]

Plainspeak: yes, I did think about it and that's why I am much less anxious, because I think Grassley is just trying to get his crazy Steve King amendment into this bill (kill EB3 altogether). The EB3-ROWers are too stupid to realize why Grassley is actually opposing the bill. They have convinced themselves that *anything* to prevent this bill will be a win for them. But at the time of high unemployment and public resentment, the EB program and specifically and EB3 category will be the first one to fall if at all.

helpful_leo: When I first read the EB3-ROW argument, I was genuinely scared, because it did make sense! However once I thought about it a little, I realized that EB3-ROWers are using EB1 and EB2 professions to make the argument. Most of the doctors are in EB2 and I am not exactly sure how many nurses the US needs at this point in time. America produces far more nurses than IT professionals. Practically every housewife here has at least thought of becoming a nurse. If you think Americans are sore over the IT influx, wait until they hear about EB3 nurses.

Also, I realized that EB3 is flooded by our South Asian friends, Pakistani and Bangladeshis. Most of the first world countries have very little stake in EB3, and hence they won't be impacted much by 3012. Check the 2010 report on green card issuance in the EB category. First world countries get a majority of their green cards in EB1. Their "skilled" workers don't need to come to the US, because they have their jobs, a first world lifestyle and a better social safety net right at home. Once we realize this, things are now more transparent. What are the rest of the EB3-ROWers doing? What great need are they filling in America that they find themselves as absolutely essential and Indian IT managers as superfluous? Why is IT so maligned and targeted and used in scare mongering tactics? Aren't the Senators going to realize that the opposition is not really coming from "the rest of the world", but only from "Pakistan/Bangladesh/Russia" for EB3 jobs that could be deemed equally superfluous as the Indian IT jobs?

And yes, you could also make arguments about the doctors from India and the PhDs Indians/Chinese are getting in STEM.

EDIT: BTW, the ** has made a mandate of *not* contacting anyone in the Senate and that's why your post is deleted. ** is amazingly not caring at all about the ROWers campaign. They seem to be cooking something, and we will only know when the food is ready.

I only worry about the Dr/nurse/PhD argument because it sounds plausible on the surfcae to most people (even FIFO-ers), may be because there are so many Indians in IT. And because there really isn't any real argument against HR3012, anti-FIFOers can run with this.

I too hope ** know what they are doing. From appearances, they seem quite confident of their approach.

[gcq]

Irrespective of whether majority of Indians are doctors/IT guys/scientist or whether ROW countries are all geniuses, it doesn't matter here in this bill's context. If there is a scientist from India and another scientist from Poland, if they are equally qualified, they both will qualify for EBX category visa. When there are 2 candidates with identical qualification with the same GC categorization, who should be given priority ? The person who came first irrespective of where they were born. EB immigration doesn't discriminate between professions. So all their arguments are baseless. In EB immigration there are only 5 queues, EB1 through EB5. Professions/occupation does not matter, country of birth should not matter. That is the reason for this bill.

As for the argument that there are lot of Indians and Chinese in EB category, that is the exact reason for this bill. Candidates from China and India should not get discouraged and return to their home countries. This will obviously lead to brain drain and loss of competitiveness for US.

[immitime]

I think the key line here
" that it does nothing to better protect Americans at home who seek high-skilled jobs during this time of record high unemployment."
We all know that the numbers are not increasing but what if he wants to reduce the numbers. His statement says "bill does nothing to protect" so he might want to include an addendum to reduce visa numbers

Plainspeak good to see you again here.

As you know, labor clearence and I-140 approval is done in a fashion that there is not much skilled people locally here in USA, to perform the specified job, the labor clearence itself specifies to advertise the job on a local news paper where the vacancy exists. The counter argument for grassley is "Do you want American jobs move to Forgein countries because of lack of skill available?"

For example refer to H.R.3012 house vote discussion, one of the Rep metioned the conversation between Bill Clinton and Steve Jobs,

Reducing number may not happen, Even Rep King tried that but invain! Other Senators who are all well educated can understand things more clearly without bias.This bipartisan bill will be helpful to both Republicans and Democrats. let us wait for the good:)

[self.coach]

Now let's get back to the beautiful work we do on this board, letting them hate us, so that when we have our green cards, we can make them love us.

Manubhai, ek jaadu ki jappi de denge unko. Powerful words those..

[self.coach]

FYI - they are yahoo/google groups out there for EB-ROWs that are bashing 3012. Search for one of these named EB_ROW.

[helpful_leo]

Irrespective of whether majority of Indians are doctors/IT guys/scientist or whether ROW countries are all geniuses, it doesn't matter here in this bill's context. If there is a scientist from India and another scientist from Poland, if they are equally qualified, they both will qualify for EBX category visa. When there are 2 candidates with identical qualification with the same GC categorization, who should be given priority ? The person who came first irrespective of where they were born. EB immigration doesn't discriminate between professions. So all their arguments are baseless. In EB immigration there are only 5 queues, EB1 through EB5. Professions/occupation does not matter, country of birth should not matter. That is the reason for this bill.

As for the argument that there are lot of Indians and Chinese in EB category, that is the exact reason for this bill. Candidates from China and India should not get discouraged and return to their home countries. This will obviously lead to brain drain and loss of competitiveness for US.

You are right.

However, the arguments referred to can gain some traction even among moderate senators had this bill changed the actual GC distribution from, say, 60% IT/ engineers /finance versus 40% MD/PhD/nursing to 90% IT/ engineers /finance versus 10% MD/PhD/nursing, as the anti-FIFO argument goes.

They argue that by making the process FIFO, you will admit to permanent residency a disproportionately large number of IT people at the cost of MD/PhDs etc (basing on the perecption that most IC folk are IT).

Except, the argument is factually incorrect. Among the population of international MDs+nurses+PhDs, the IC contingent, I can safely bet, exceeds 50%.

[gcq]

Need not worry. There is lot of background activity happening in support of this bill which me, you or ROW ers can't see. This activity will take care of all these. At the end of the day, it is the number of votes that matter. We will have that.

[Jonty Rhodes]

I only worry about the Dr/nurse/PhD argument because it sounds plausible on the surfcae to most people (even FIFO-ers), may be because there are so many Indians in IT. And because there really isn't any real argument against HR3012, anti-FIFOers can run with this.

I too hope ** know what they are doing. From appearances, they seem quite confident of their approach.

Few points. I am an Indian physician myself stuck in this EB2 mess and so I have some idea about this.

Somebody made a point about physicians and nurses being in EB3. Just to clarify, all doctors and nurses are in EB2 only. I have not seen a single doctor or a nurse so far in EB3. So that is almost out of question.

1. Rural Iowa does have a shortage of physicians and nurses. There are lots of foreign born doctors and nurses who work in rural Iowa. This is a true statement.

2. But if you count the percentage of foreign doctors by nationality in rural Iowa (actually anywhere in US), you would find that the majority of foreign born doctors are from India and the majority of foreign born nurses would be from Philippines. Foreign born doctors from other nationalities than India have significant presence in rural Iowa but they are not as many in numbers as India born doctors.

3. India born doctors would last the longest in their jobs in rural Iowa because they are stuck in EB2 category backlog and will wait longest to get their GCs. Many of them are actually on J1 Waiver and are doing a waiver job on H1B. (I personally know 5 physicians). Similarly Indian nurses, if in EB2, will also be stuck and will last longer in their jobs.

4. Physicians from other nationalities usually don't stay long in their jobs for one simple reason and that is because they get their GC in 6 months and either go to big cities or go for fellowships. (Frankly speaking, who would like to live in rural Iowa during those icy cold winters and boring summers).

5. So actually, giving faster GCs to doctors and nurses from other nationalities (non-India and China) is actually detrimental for rural Iowa because then they will leave their jobs and the sufferers will be hospitals and people from rural Iowa as they will face the shortage of doctors and nurses again, which in reality happens quite frequently.

6. I don't work in Iowa but I work in a midsize Midwest town. We had 1 Pakistani, 1 Syrian and 1 Philippino physician leave just 6 months after they got their GC within 6 months while we have 4 Indian doctors who are still waiting for their GCs including me :p) Actually, our hospital perceives this factor to be very important because they don't want the physicians to leave frequently. Their patients suffer continuity of care because of this and hospital's reputation goes down pretty fast if they have a very high turnover of physicians. Result: Contracts are made for 3 years now and not 2 years or 1 year :)

This whole argument of ROWers that doctors, nurses and Ph.D. from other nationalities have to wait longer is actually counterproductive, if you think sensibly and logically. Making everyone wait equal time is the best solution regardless of whether there are more Indian doctors or more ROW doctors.

But then, we all know that Sen. Chuck Grassley's move is neither sensible nor logical. I feel it is more of an empty political rhetoric.

I hope some sanity prevails in senate so this bill can sail. (Boy, I am in poetic mood today :p) )

[helpful_leo]

Few points. I am an Indian physician myself stuck in this EB2 mess and so I have some idea about this.


I am one too, but did a residency straight on H1B.


But then, we all know that Sen. Chuck Grassley's move is neither sensible nor logical. I feel it is more of an empty political rhetoric.
I hope some sanity prevails in senate so this bill can sail. (Boy, I am in poetic mood today :p) )

Your argument is interesting. But can it be argued that HR3012 is detrimental to rural Iowa because now, along with others, Indians will also leave early? Or maybe you are saying that since it will equalize wait times for all, it will help the hospitals more.

I agree Grassley may only be prejudiced, but I think we should not give up on the slight chance that he is specifically against HR3012 only because he is misinformed. Beacuse the costs are too great if he is effective with his tantrums. ** doesn't think so, but what if they turn out wrong?

[feedmyback]

Never mind.... It is already here..... My bad!! After knowing how sharp members of this forum are.... I still took a chance :)

-----------------------------------------------------------

Not sure if someone posted this already!!

Lee and Chaffetz, along with Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., plan to visit soon with Grassley.

“I simply think it is a matter of education and communicating with him,” Chaffetz said. “The only way to even get one of these visas is you have to demonstrate that there is no American who has applied to fill that job.”

Lee explained the case he plans to make to Grassley.

[gcq]

Not sure how many noticed, there is a split in that EB_ROW yahoo group. At least one or two guys came to their senses. They said they don't prefer working with the likes of Steve King and Grassley, rather they would wait for extra 5 years. One of the amendments that king proposed in Judiciary committee was "elimination of EB3". Rightfully he made the decision it is better to wait additional 5 years than getting his category EB3 eliminated by these anti-immigrant lawmakers. I was surprised to see this response from that group as the entire group was going nuts over HR 3012.

Some EB2 ROW folks are taking EB3 ROW folks for a ride for their personal gain. Most positive thing for ROW to do is let this bill pass and then work on other broader bills like recapture, exemption of STEM, exemption of dependents from visa numbers. Now they are in a suicidal mode. They don't realize that they are playing with fire by aligning with King/Grassley etc.

[Jonty Rhodes]

I am one too, but did a residency straight on H1B.



Your argument is interesting. But can it be argued that HR3012 is detrimental to rural Iowa because now, along with others, Indians will also leave early? Or maybe you are saying that since it will equalize wait times for all, it will help the hospitals more.

I agree Grassley may only be prejudiced, but I think we should not give up on the slight chance that he is specifically against HR3012 only because he is misinformed. Beacuse the costs are too great if he is effective with his tantrums. ** doesn't think so, but what if they turn out wrong?

@helpful_leo

Your argument is interesting. But can it be argued that HR3012 is detrimental to rural Iowa because now, along with others, Indians will also leave early?

That is not what I am saying.

Or maybe you are saying that since it will equalize wait times for all, it will help the hospitals more.

This is exactly what I am saying.

I agree Grassley may only be prejudiced, but I think we should not give up on the slight chance that he is specifically against HR3012 only because he is misinformed. Beacuse the costs are too great if he is effective with his tantrums. ** doesn't think so, but what if they turn out wrong?

I totally agree.

[Jonty Rhodes]

I believe this is what he was saying (it's a complex argument, so I will try to word it the best I can):

- The hospitals are actually *preferring* Indian doctors knowing their wait times. This is discrimination *against* ROW and actually by creating the norm of leaving early, the current bunch of ROWers are harming the future applicants. In a twisted way, HR 3012 will actually help them by forcing them to wait the same as Indians.

- Whether the Indian doctors will leave early after the bill's passage is not an issue. Currently, because the hospitals know that Indians can be kept for 5 years while ROWers leave in 6 months, they may not themselves care much to provide enough incentives for the doctors to stay with them longer "irrespective of the GC status*. In this incredibly flawed system, Indians suffer needlessly and ROWers get to party on the backs of the hard working Indians. How about we put an end to this unfair practice? Perhaps everyone will wait for 2 years and perhaps hospitals will find more incentives to keep them longer. Let us keep a person's green card wait time out of the equation and let the market forces and the socialistic needs of the country solve the question of how long rural Iowa can keep all of its international doctors.

I really did not mean that. What I really meant was that with HR 3012, everyone will have similar wait times (Indian and ROW doctors). But you came up with an interesting and a different observation from my argument. Good one, my friend.

[gcq]

Best thing is to stay away from country mix, professional mix etc. That will lead us to a wrong discussion path. Country of birth/profession is not relevant to HR 3012. When we try to discuss these, we will deviate from the topic. That is what we are seeing in many internet boards. How one particular country gets advantage over the other etc. HR 3012 brings all countries to level playing field. Skills and PD are the only variables that matter once HR 3012 becomes law.

[Jonty Rhodes]

Best thing is to stay away from country mix, professional mix etc. That will lead us to a wrong discussion path. Country of birth/profession is not relevant to HR 3012. When we try to discuss these, we will deviate from the topic. That is what we are seeing in many internet boards. How one particular country gets advantage over the other etc. HR 3012 brings all countries to level playing field. Skills and PD are the only variables that matter once HR 3012 becomes law.

I agree with you. I was just replying to this Rural Iowa Argument that someone posted. But I just wanted to make people aware that Indian and Chinese Physicians are also severely suffering from EB2 backlogs (they are not in EB3) and IT is not the only sector suffering. We are not as big group as IT Professionals from India and China but our number is significant to get noticed. And we all are with you supporting you in this quest for fairness.

Just like you all, the Indian and Chinese Physicians have also been hindered from growing because of this backlog.

We can not accept promotions in bigger and better hospitals. (I had to refuse 4 promotional offers in last 6 months with bigger and better salaries because I can't change an employer at this point)

Medical Fellowships (sub-specialization) are extremely hard to get in to on H1B because fellowship programs in US hospitals are funded by NIH and Medicare and prefer to take US Citizens and GC holders only.

You can get a fellowship on H1B but you have to have publications and strong recommendation letters from University Hospital Faculty Physicians.

But here is a vicious cycle. If you are an Indian physician on H1B, most likely you will end up in a rural area. --> If you are working in a rural area, mostly it will be a smaller hospital. --> You don't have a chance to do any research or publish any paper in a smaller hospital. --> You are not in contact with any University Faculty so forget about recommendation letters also. --> No research, no publications, no strong recommendation letters + longer time spent away from academic activity after graduation (MD) = No Fellowships/Very Tough to get.

Just to give you a simple example, in my program there were 23 resident doctors who were doing MD.

10 Indians, 4 Pakistanis, 2 Nepalese, 1 Nigerian, 1 Algerian, 1 Russian, 1 South Korean, 1 Philippino, 1 Syrian, 1 Iranian.

Out of those 23, except 10 Indians, everyone got their GCs in 6 months.

Out of those 10 Indian doctors, 9 came on student visa (including me) and have an additional Masters degree from a US University along with MD. Those 9 converted from F1 to H1B.

1 Indian doctor was on Research J1 and was doing research for 5 years in Cleveland Clinic.

1 Nigerian and 1 Nepalese doctor came on GC via GC lottery.

Rest of the doctors came here on visitor visas, gave their exams, did interviews and went back. When they secured residency positions, they all came back on H1B.

Now, here is an interesting fact. No medical residency program in US (except 2 programs out of more than 6000) will sponsor green cards because they know that we will finish our training after 3 years and leave so everyone does their residency on H1B only. Physician GCs are filed in 4th year of H1B only. (We all waste our first 3 years of H1B)

So all 21 people did their residency on H1B. (2 were already on GC via GC lottery).

Right now, all 9 Indian doctors are working as a primary care or hospitalists in small towns.

The ROW doctors have moved to fellowships or taken promotions after getting their GCs and none of them have published more than 1 paper and mostly have not published at all.

Algerian doctor - Echo Fellowship and Heart Failure Fellowship
Iranian doctor - Palliative and Hematology-Oncology Fellowship
South Korean Doctor - Nephrology Fellowship
Syrian Doctor - Nephrology Fellowship
Philippino Doctor - Endocrinology Fellowship
Russian Doctor - Pain Management Fellowship
Nigerian Doctor - Cardiology Fellowship
Pakistani Doctors (All 4) - Infectious Disease, Gastroenterology, Rheumatology, Pulmonary-Critical Care Fellowships
Nepalese Doctors (All 2) - Infectious Disease, Pulmonary-Critical Care Fellowships.
Indian Doctor (One with 5 year research experience) - Endocrinology Fellowship (due to EB1A GC with 35 publications as first author)

My Indian colleague has 5 publications. He applied for Gastroenterology and had no interview calls. (Reason given - We don't sponsor H1Bs)
My Pakistani colleague has 2 publications. He applied for Gastroenterology with GC in hand and had 5 interview calls. He is doing his fellowship right now.

This is just an example of my residency program. Imagine there are so many.

Sounds similar to problems other professionals from India and China face also, isn't it?

Is this ROW call fairness?

[Jonty Rhodes]

Lets get back to doing what we were doing originally on this website. Calculations, Predictions bringing clarity to GC process as Q and Pedro Gonzalez said.

Please keep your responses measured and stick to our original work.

I will start with myself not indulging further on immigration discussions. ;)

[imdeng]

Folks - like so many others here - I no longer contribute to ** but I do take part in all the non-monetary action items. ** has asked for letters to Senators and we should do that as well. However, the letter that ** is asking to send is not well drafted (and includes a useless sentence asking Senators to use ** as a resource). I believe we can do better and draft a much nicer letter.

Unless somebody else does it by then, I will compose a letter later today and start the process by which we can send printed hard-copy letters to Senators at a nominal cost. I believe we did that once already a couple months back. I hope all of us with help the effort by sending printed letters (or at least the emails which are free of charge).

[Pundit Arjun]

Thanks imdeng. I was looking for a good template to start with.

If I remember correct, then I think someone posted a decent template in the forum earlier. I will try to locate it, if not we can use yours.

Oh Boy, you have hurt the big daddy. Am sure you will be banned from ** too. I too might be banned from ** for posting this :) - LOL


Folks - like so many others here - I no longer contribute to ** but I do take part in all the non-monetary action items. ** has asked for letters to Senators and we should do that as well. However, the letter that ** is asking to send is not well drafted (and includes a useless sentence asking Senators to use ** as a resource). I believe we can do better and draft a much nicer letter.

Unless somebody else does it by then, I will compose a letter later today and start the process by which we can send printed hard-copy letters to Senators at a nominal cost. I believe we did that once already a couple months back. I hope all of us with help the effort by sending printed letters (or at least the emails which are free of charge).

[helpful_leo]

Folks - like so many others here - I no longer contribute to ** but I do take part in all the non-monetary action items. ** has asked for letters to Senators and we should do that as well. However, the letter that ** is asking to send is not well drafted (and includes a useless sentence asking Senators to use ** as a resource). I believe we can do better and draft a much nicer letter.

Unless somebody else does it by then, I will compose a letter later today and start the process by which we can send printed hard-copy letters to Senators at a nominal cost. I believe we did that once already a couple months back. I hope all of us with help the effort by sending printed letters (or at least the emails which are free of charge).

A better drafted letter is always welcome. If it is significantly improved and conveys our message across better, you or any of us can ask for that to be used as **'s official letter.

I may not entirely understand the issues involved here- but I think contributing to ** at this point is in the best interests of H.R. 3012. I have this strong sense that they are playing to a plan, which includes among other things, little publicity, direct contact with legislators, involving lawyers/ DC professionals, communicating the 'technical fix' nature of the bill (which it is), etc. All this requires effort and a lot of cash. I would trust them on this, and support the effort. I would urge that you, and others here, too.

Thanks.

[immitime]

Lee and Chaffetz, along with Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., plan to visit soon with Grassley.

“I simply think it is a matter of education and communicating with him,” Chaffetz said. “The only way to even get one of these visas is you have to demonstrate that there is no American who has applied to fill that job
Lee explained the case he plans to make to Grassley.

“It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to have these antiquated quotas in place and a country-by-country basis,” Lee said. “Tell me how that does anything to help the American worker? I don’t know that it does.”

Source : http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/politics/53030697-90/bill-lee-chaffetz-grassley.html.csp

Excellent points to educate Senator Grassley properly about the situation. They are hitting the nail properly. All the best to all.:)

[devi_pd]

Guys.. Please use ** link when sending emails to Senators. This will help us get the message across better. There is a very good chance the bill might be taken up next week in Senate. We need to do all we can to educate them about this bill.

[imdeng]

Folks - I have created a petition that will send emails (for free) as well as printed letters (for a fee) to your respective senators.

http://www.petition2congress.com/5665/support-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-hr-3012/

This is a variant of the **'s petition - I have taken their content and edited it and included some thoughts of my own. To me, it reads better than the ** petition. I would urge you to spend the $9 it takes to send a printed version of the letter to the Senators - it definitely has more impact than just an email.

The link allows you to edit the petition before sending if you so wish. If you are making changes, then please share them on this forum so that I can collate the useful changes and edit the original petition with them.

[manubhai]

Folks - I have created a petition that will send emails (for free) as well as printed letters (for a fee) to your respective senators.

http://www.petition2congress.com/5665/support-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-hr-3012/

This is a variant of the **'s petition - I have taken their content and edited it and included some thoughts of my own. To me, it reads better than the ** petition. I would urge you to spend the $9 it takes to send a printed version of the letter to the Senators - it definitely has more impact than just an email.

The link allows you to edit the petition before sending if you so wish. If you are making changes, then please share them on this forum so that I can collate the useful changes and edit the original petition with them.

imdeng - Any chance of you being able to modify it still?? I would like to add/change something if you are ok with it... and not create a new one.

[imdeng]

Please share your changes - I can edit the petition any time.

imdeng - Any chance of you being able to modify it still?? I would like to add/change something if you are ok with it... and not create a new one.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Please share your changes - I can edit the petition any time.

I sent out the ** letter already. I'll be happy to send this one out too (printed, this time). Let us know when you've made manubhai's changes.

Q, I have moved gnhgnh's posts and the responses to them to 'junk', as his posts were still generating responses.

[suninphx]

Guys.. Please use ** link when sending emails to Senators. This will help us get the message across better. There is a very good chance the bill might be taken up next week in Senate. We need to do all we can to educate them about this bill.

Is there any link which confirms above?

[EB3Vee]

I appreciate the moderator to keep the forum troll free and relevant to the topic.

My logic - House recces date is set at Dec 8 and Senate should be close by. So if this bill has any chance to be taken up in senate, it has to be in the next 2 weeks.

[helpful_leo]

Folks - I have created a petition that will send emails (for free) as well as printed letters (for a fee) to your respective senators.

http://www.petition2congress.com/5665/support-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-hr-3012/

This is a variant of the **'s petition - I have taken their content and edited it and included some thoughts of my own. To me, it reads better than the ** petition. I would urge you to spend the $9 it takes to send a printed version of the letter to the Senators - it definitely has more impact than just an email.

The link allows you to edit the petition before sending if you so wish. If you are making changes, then please share them on this forum so that I can collate the useful changes and edit the original petition with them.

Thanks. Looks good.

Sorry for beating this to death - but do you guys think it worthwhile to mail senators with a rebuttal / deconstruction of the fallacious non-FIFO arguments. We have discussed those here previously, including the 'decreased MD/nurse/PhD', 'decreased first world/ European immigration', 'did not sign up/ change midway' and similar unfactual arguments.

I am concerned these could potentially gain traction with atleast some senate staffers/ senators. We could have a coherent, data driven, polite counter argument that exposes the mumbo-jumbo that the non-FIFO argument really is.

I am aware of the few downsides to this approach, and wonder what most folk here think?

[imdeng]

I believe we should only focus on the our positive message. Nobody (Senator/Congressperson) has as yet taken up the non-FIFO arguments seriously - as such these arguments only exist in the trackitt-board-universe. Responding to them will only elevate their profile. We have a clear positive message and the legislators are behind it - so we just need to stay the course and push it further. In case someone (e.g. Grassley) starts repeating non-FIFO arguments - then we can think of a coherent reply.

BTW - anybody responding to ROW-people on Trackitt is wasting their time. Ignore the trolls.

Thanks. Looks good.

Sorry for beating this to death - but do you guys think it worthwhile to mail senators with a rebuttal / deconstruction of the fallacious non-FIFO arguments. We have discussed those here previously, including the 'decreased MD/nurse/PhD', 'decreased first world/ European immigration', 'did not sign up/ change midway' and similar unfactual arguments.

I am concerned these could potentially gain traction with atleast some senate staffers/ senators. We could have a coherent, data driven, polite counter argument that exposes the mumbo-jumbo that the non-FIFO argument really is.

I am aware of the few downsides to this approach, and wonder what most folk here think?

[gcq]

I believe we should only focus on the our positive message. Nobody (Senator/Congressperson) has as yet taken up the non-FIFO arguments seriously - as such these arguments only exist in the trackitt-board-universe. Responding to them will only elevate their profile. We have a clear positive message and the legislators are behind it - so we just need to stay the course and push it further. In case someone (e.g. Grassley) starts repeating non-FIFO arguments - then we can think of a coherent reply.

BTW - anybody responding to ROW-people on Trackitt is wasting their time. Ignore the trolls.
Completely agree. We should respond in a positive concise manner. We should highlight our bill, its benefits in short few sentences. No need to respond to ROW ers baseless arguments. In fact we can straight away quote Chafetz's and Lamar Smith's introductory statements about the bill.

[imdeng]

Twitter folks - this is your moment to shine. Use tag #HR3012. You can send tweets to Senators - find their info here: http://twitter.com/#!/who_to_follow/search/senator
For example: Senator Grassley: @ChuckGrassley
Suggested tweet by **: Request your leadership to support HR 3012 Fairness for High Skilled Immigrants Act #HR3012

[Pedro Gonzales]

I believe we should only focus on the our positive message. Nobody (Senator/Congressperson) has as yet taken up the non-FIFO arguments seriously - as such these arguments only exist in the trackitt-board-universe. Responding to them will only elevate their profile. We have a clear positive message and the legislators are behind it - so we just need to stay the course and push it further. In case someone (e.g. Grassley) starts repeating non-FIFO arguments - then we can think of a coherent reply.

BTW - anybody responding to ROW-people on Trackitt is wasting their time. Ignore the trolls.

Agreed, with one caveat. I think we still ought to have the counter arguments published on a website somewhere.

This will serve two purposes. a) If and when staffers (I don't think any of us will get in front of our senators) start referring to any of the arguments we'll have somewhere we can point them to it to disabuse them of this misinformation and b) when future trolls come along to this forum, we can point them to it instead of addressing their arguments.

I think i'll be stuck at an airport most of this afternoon. I'll try and get a first draft of our arguments going. A couple of people on this forum offered to host the page. Hopefully we'll have a working site ready by Monday for further tweaks. I'm not talking about a blog or a forum; it will allow no comments or posts. It will simply have our message and action items. Refer to my posts earlier on this thread for further details.

[imdeng]

Makes sense Pedro - a informative site without comments or discussion makes sense. We can then use that as a link to support our arguments.

I'm not talking about a blog or a forum; it will allow no comments or posts. It will simply have our message and action items. Refer to my posts earlier on this thread for further details.

[manubhai]

Please share your changes - I can edit the petition any time.

All - This is my version built on imdeng's copy. I have NOT read **'s version because I didn't want this version to be biased after reading that.

What was the aim?
1. Don't complain about the pain, just focus on what is important and beneficial for US.
2. Explain the most important points as a numbered list.
3. Make the letter personable - a human wrote it to be read by another human.
4. We all will have opinions about what the "best" letter needs to comprise, but this is my version of the "most important and just enough" contents of such a letter. So don't complain to imdeng or I. If you don't like this, please go ahead and write your own.

BUT SPEND THOSE $9 to send the 3 printed copies.


===========START==========

I am writing to you to ask you for your support for H.R. 3012 - Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act.

Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness may be what one recognizes this beautiful country for, but "Fairness" is also an attribute that is deeply embedded in its ethos.

I am cognizant of how deeply contentious any immigration policy decision can be for elected officials. Years of partisanship and division over the issue have proven how difficult it is to resolve these issues. However, what you have today in front of you is a bill that puts aside all contentious aspects of immigration, and focuses purely on the singular aspect that every United States citizen agrees with - Attract the best and brightest in the world to its shores, just as it always has.

That said, H.R. 3012 does NOT bring a single new person in to United States. It only aims to make the "process" of employment based immigration fair for the best and brightest English speaking, educated, tax-paying, law abiding, experienced professionals who have previously entered United States legally after proving their worth. These are people who have done their best to pay their dues to call this country home, but at the same time, have been treated unfairly. H.R. 3012 is a technical fix that makes the process of employment based immigration more "American" because "Fairness" is the quintessential American way.

As you may already be aware, H.R. 3012 proposes to remove the arbitrarily prescribed limit of 7% per country on annual allotment of green cards - the root cause of the unfairness. Because of this limit, applicants from countries like India, China, Mexico, and Philippines are subjected to an inhumane wait of more than 10-12 years.

As I write to you, I also understand that United States' immigration policy decisions should not and cannot be made based purely on the sacrifice that a potential immigrant has to make. But at the same time, I also want to question how the existing, arbitrary, employment based immigration policy helps the United States' economy. If it doesn't help, it should be removed in order to make the lives of those professionals working hard to call US their home a little better.

I would like to bring your attention to the following list of points:
1. This bill does NOT increase the number of immigrants allowed in the United States.
2. This bill eliminates an archaic provision of the current employment based immigration law that discriminates the amount of time an employment based applicant needs to wait based on his country of birth.
3. This bill will have no impact on the diversity of the immigrant pool (much less the diversity of the population of United States) because it only impacts a small percentage of the total immigrant pool entering United States.
4. This bill is a product of patriotic minds on both sides of the aisle working together to produce small, beneficial results for the US economy. It has thus passed the House of Representatives with a 96% approval - a rare feat in today's times.

I request you to support H.R. 3012 with your honorable colleagues from both sides of the aisle.

Thank you.

============END============

[qesehmk]

Manubhai

Great job. I will just state my core view on why country quota doesn't make sense and leave it to you and others to change it.

Fundamentally "Freedom" is a very American core value. Current country quotas are forcing EB-IC applicants to work for an employer for unrealistic time periods which is for all practical purposes - economic slavery. American Experience should start with Freedom and Equal Opportunity. The premise that "All men are born equal" should also apply to immigrants. "All Immigrants should enter the US equally". And then let their own energies, capabilities and ideas take them to different heights.

That's how I fundamentally see it.

[imdeng]

If anybody needs a twitter template for copy paste - I found this to be a well written one. Please send to as many Senators as you can - at least do so for your home state Senators.

Pls support bi-partisan #HR3012 Fairness For High Skilled Immigrants Act, passed 385-19 by House, now waiting for Senate vote

[helpful_leo]

Totally rocks!
Just the right amount of emotion and harking to American values, combined with solid facts.

[helpful_leo]

Just some minor carping. Overall the letter is awesome.

A couple of typos, and some suggested changes to make it more readable. Just what I think- may not be right.
I have bolded / highlighted areas that may be places to make changes.

OTOH I may be wrong and this reads best.

[helpful_leo]

Sorry for the unsolicited editing, but I think the letter is great and we should give it wider circulation.

Maybe I am missing soem nuances in your language, but here is what I am thinking in the earlier post:

The two typos (I think) are: you probably mean partisanship (& not bi-p), & countries instead of country.

I feel the upper casing and " " in every is not required there- it reads just as well otherwise.

Unfairly probably comes across more strongly than its passive variant.

The " " don't work in process teh second time around.

Reg. discriminatory - it probably comes across as a little too strong, and carries a lot of baggage; a softer word may serve us better.

"on the quantity and quality of sacrifice" can be substituted by the simpler "sacrifices".

[manubhai]

helpful_leo - Have made the corrections and updates as you suggested on the original. Thank you.
Only thing not changed was the use of the word "discriminatory". I do think it is an appropriate word to use here because the current status, by definition, is based on "group of people" based on country of origin.

imdeng - can you please update the petition? I see it has already received 102 signs.

q, helpful_leo - Please remove the old quoted text from your messages so that folks don't copy that version by mistake if they decide to post it outside of imdeng's petition.

Updated version is here (http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?211-Discussion-of-Bills-that-remove-the-Per-Country-Limits-H.R.2161-H.R.3012-H.R.3119&p=15081#post15081).

Thanks!

[Pedro Gonzales]

Sorry for the unsolicited editing, but I think the letter is great and we should give it wider circulation.

Maybe I am missing soem nuances in your language, but here is what I am thinking in the earlier post:

The two typos (I think) are: you probably mean partisanship (& not bi-p), & countries instead of country.

I feel the upper casing and " " in every is not required there- it reads just as well otherwise.

Unfairly probably comes across more strongly than its passive variant.

The " " don't work in process teh second time around.

Reg. discriminatory - it probably comes across as a little too strong, and carries a lot of baggage; a softer word may serve us better.

"on the quantity and quality of sacrifice" can be substituted by the simpler "sacrifices".

I agree with the above suggestions.
I also think the 'an' that was inserted by Leo before 'inhumane' but wasn't bolded by him is required.
As to 'in the same breath', I prefer 'at the same time' but both work.
On 'discriminatory', how about 'arbitrary'. Equally strong perhaps, but with none of the baggage. I'm deng/manubhai, we'll leave it to you to take or leave these comments. Do fix the two typos though, whatever else you chose to do.

[kd2008]

I am not discouraging anyone and do not take my opinion in the wrong way. Online communication seldom results in anything substantial. As it is the internet is full of auto-tweeting services and email-bots. So senate offices rarely take these seriously. What matters is an in-person visit and telephone calls.

During the house judiciary Markup, the calls made the most difference. Also, on another note, the hold by Grassley is truly problematic as he is the Ranking member of Senate Judiciary committee and as such the Republican leadership will defer to him on matters of immigration. So those who can need to be in DC to visit Senators and more importantly, change Grassley's mind.

Until then the bill is truly stuck. It is a shame that a Republican Senator is putting a hold on a bill by a Republican Congressman which passed the house vote with a 96% approval or so.

[imdeng]

Based on Manubhai's inputs, I am editing the petition. If you have already signed the original petition then there is no need to re-sign. The changed petition is below - please note that this is only a template and you will have the opportunity to edit and include your words when you sign the petition.
Link to Petition: http://www.petition2congress.com/5665/support-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-hr-3012/
-------------------
I am writing to you to ask you for your support for H.R. 3012 - Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act. This bill is a minor technical fix that will help reduce the long wait times and large backlog in the employment based green card system without increasing the number of green cards issued.

The root cause of the backlog and delays in the employment based green card system is the unfair and discriminatory per-country-limits of 7% per country on annual allotment of green cards. Because of this artificial limit, many high-skilled legal immigrants from countries like India, China, Mexico and Philippines are subjected to inhumane wait of more than 10-12 years for a visa. A minor technical fix of removing the per-country-limits and imposing the fair practice of first-come-first-serve will help reduce the long backlogs. H.R. 3012 - Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act, that contains the technical fix, passed the US House of Representatives with an overwhelming bipartisan support of 389-15 votes on Nov 29th.

H.R. 3012 does NOT increase the number of green cards issued. It only aims to make the process of employment based immigration fair for the best and brightest high-skilled, English speaking, educated, tax-paying, law abiding, experienced professionals who have previously entered United States legally after proving their worth. These are people who have done their best to pay their dues to call this country home, but at the same time, have been treated with a lot of unfairness because of their country of birth. H.R. 3012 is a technical fix that makes the process of employment based immigration more "American" because "Fairness" is the quintessential American way.

I would like to bring the following to your attention regarding H.R 3012:
1. This bill does NOT increase the number of immigrants allowed in the United States.
2. This bill eliminates an archaic provision of the current employment based immigration law that discriminates the amount of time an employment based green card applicant needs to wait based on his/her country of birth.
3. This bill will have no impact on the diversity of the immigrant pool (much less the diversity of the population of United States) because it only impacts a small percentage of the total immigrant pool entering United States.
4. This bill is a product of patriotic minds on both sides of the aisle working together to produce small, beneficial results for the US economy. It has thus passed the House of Representatives with a 96% approval - a rare feat in today's times.

I request you to support H.R. 3012 with your honorable colleagues from both sides of the aisle. I am cognizant of how deeply contentious any immigration policy decision can be for elected officials. Years of partisanship and division over the issue have proven how difficult it is to resolve these issues. However, what you have in front of you is a bill that puts aside all contentious aspects of immigration, and focuses purely on the singular aspect that every United States citizen agrees with - Attract the best and brightest in the world to its shores, just as it always has, irrespective of their country of birth. This bill will not only help create a fair high-skilled immigration system based on the principle of first-come-first-serve, it will also help the USA attract the best high-skilled talent from around the world to grow the economy and create jobs in the USA.

Thank You.

[manubhai]

I agree with the above suggestions.
I also think the 'an' that was inserted by Leo before 'inhumane' but wasn't bolded by him is required.
As to 'in the same breath', I prefer 'at the same time' but both work.
On 'discriminatory', how about 'arbitrary'. Equally strong perhaps, but with none of the baggage. I'm deng/manubhai, we'll leave it to you to take or leave these comments. Do fix the two typos though, whatever else you chose to do.

Pedro - Made the changes. Thanks. I don't personally feel that "discriminatory" is out of place here, but if that's what you both feel makes sense, then I'm in because there might be more people who agree with that.

[helpful_leo]

Yes, I agree with Pedro - there needs to be an "an" before inhumane.

Discriminatory is indeed accurate - however, since we are communicating with the body that enacted the law, I wondered if the word came across as a bit accusatory. I was looking for a word that communicated the combined senses of discriminatory, arbitrary and outdated.

Imdeng, thanks for doing this.
The final format looks appropriate, but my OCD part worries if it has become a tad too clunky, too big. And honestly I preferred the arrangement of paragraphs in manubhai's original. Just being a bit anal- this works great too.

[manubhai]

imdeng - I don't agree fully with the final state of the petition letter because I think it is a little repetitive and not structured in flow to carry the reader from beginning to closing. However, that is just my personal opinion and I'll still sign it because this is about us collectively as a big enough group to bring some attention to the cause. Thanks for the initiative.

I urge others to sign it too.

[jackbrown_890]

I will definitely sign d petition. I have been reading here for last two days.
has anyone called chaffez s office?
I still think we will need support of main stream media if it doesn't move for next few weeks. specially immigration bill clearing with majority bi partisan support in d house.left wing media will be willing to cover d story. and right wing media won't oppose it since its proposed by a republican.. if not anything else that can bring enough pressure on few senators to file cloture too.. anyways guys good job with d petition.

[imdeng]

Thank you for your contribution Manubhai. Folks - please consider sending the petition in printed letter form - it has much more of an impact than just an email. Please also note that you are not bound by either my or Manubhai's draft - you can edit the petition and put your own words if you prefer.


imdeng - I don't agree fully with the final state of the petition letter because I think it is a little repetitive and not structured in flow to carry the reader from beginning to closing. However, that is just my personal opinion and I'll still sign it because this is about us collectively as a big enough group to bring some attention to the cause. Thanks for the initiative.

I urge others to sign it too.

[imdeng]

Response from Senator Herb Kohl (D-WI) to our petition. Very quick indeed. Kohl is a member of the Judiciary Committee and his overall tone seems positive.



Dear Dr. XXX:

Thank you for contacting me. I value the correspondence I receive from fellow Wisconsinites, and welcome this opportunity to address your concerns.

On November 10, 2011, Senator Mike Lee [R-UT] introduced S. 1857, the "Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act." This legislation would amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to eliminate the per country limitation on employment-based immigrant visas. S. 1857 would also adjust the limitations on family visas without increasing the total number of available visas. This bill has been referred to the Judiciary Committee, of which I am a member. Please be assured that I will keep your thoughts in mind as the Senate considers this legislation.

I believe that a tough but fair immigration system is necessary. While we must curb illegal immigration, it is also important to respect those individuals who are willing to work, pay taxes, and abide by our laws to earn citizenship. In the past, I have supported bipartisan compromises that addressed these concerns, and I will continue to work towards immigration reform with my colleagues in the 112th Congress.

Again, thank you for contacting me. I appreciate hearing your views on this important issue.

Sincerely,

Herb Kohl
United States Senator

[immitime]

I am not discouraging anyone and do not take my opinion in the wrong way. Online communication seldom results in anything substantial. As it is the internet is full of auto-tweeting services and email-bots. So senate offices rarely take these seriously. What matters is an in-person visit and telephone calls.

During the house judiciary Markup, the calls made the most difference. Also, on another note, the hold by Grassley is truly problematic as he is the Ranking member of Senate Judiciary committee and as such the Republican leadership will defer to him on matters of immigration. So those who can need to be in DC to visit Senators and more importantly, change Grassley's mind.

Until then the bill is truly stuck. It is a shame that a Republican Senator is putting a hold on a bill by a Republican Congressman which passed the house vote with a 96% approval or so.

Grassley on immigration

http://www.issues2000.org/International/Chuck_Grassley_Immigration.htm

most of the time when immigration comes he is nay sayer, and interestingly for Agriculture worker program he said YES.(so Union works for him! Probably)

[vishnu]

and for Skiller Workers too

[helpful_leo]

Response from Senator Herb Kohl (WI) to our petition. Very quick indeed. Kohl is a member of the Judiciary Committee and his overall tone seems positive.

Awesome-st!

[immitime]

and for Skiller Workers too

Eventhough he said yes for skilled worker on year 1998, things were different at that time, but this time it seems he never understands what is the content of this bill H.R.3012. so possibly when he realises what exactly the bill is, things can turn around. Its not easy but very much possible(republican bill:-)), he may want to add his own version to amend this bill.

[imdeng]

212 letters and emails so far. Please continue to spread the word and sign the petition. Please do consider sending a printed letter for a nominal fee. Link below in my signature.

Response from Senator Herb Kohl (D-WI) to our petition. Very quick indeed. Kohl is a member of the Judiciary Committee and his overall tone seems positive.

[natvyas]

Any chance the bill will be taken up in the Senate before the recess ....i looked at the outcome of the Executive Business meeting of the Senate Judiciary Committee and there was nothing related to S1857.....there is another meeting on 8th Dec but S1857 is not on the agenda....


NOTICE OF COMMITTEE EXECUTIVE BUSINESS MEETING

An Executive Business Meeting has been scheduled by the Committee on the Judiciary for Thursday, December 8, 2011 at 10:00 a.m., in Room 226 of the Dirksen Senate Office Building.

By order of the Chairman.


AGENDA

Senate Committee on the Judiciary
Dirksen Senate Office Building, Room 226
December 8, 2011 at 10:00 a.m.

I. Nominations

Kathryn Keneally, to be Assistant Attorney General, Tax Division, Department of Justice


II. Bills

S.1886, Counterfeit Drug Penalty Enhancement Act of 2011 (Leahy, Grassley, Blumenthal, Whitehouse)

S.678, Economic Espionage Penalty Enhancement Act (Kohl, Kyl, Whitehouse, Graham, Coons, Coburn, Blumenthal)

S.1821, Temporary Bankruptcy Judgeships Extension Act of 2011 (Coons, Graham)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[imdeng]

This is far from true. The bill can still pass without him - but it will take a long time. I do believe though that he will be persuaded to remove his hold in the coming days considering it is a republican bill with bi-partisan support.

One thing for sure: Without Grassley, there is no bill.

[narendarrao]

This is from http://immigration-law.com

12/01/2011: House Immigration Subcommittee Takes Up Elimination of Visa Waiver Program Issue

On 12/07/2011, the Subcommittee will hold a hearing on "Visa Waiver Program Oversight: Risks and Benefits of the Program." As we reported earlier, the Visa Waiver Program has been under attacks by several House members, primarily Republicans. The hearing will give their agenda a momentum to move ahead with the legislative agenda. Please stay tuned.

May be they will take it up after this discussion.

[helpful_leo]

This is far from true. The bill can still pass without him - but it will take a long time. I do believe though that he will be persuaded to remove his hold in the coming days considering it is a republican bill with bi-partisan support.

Does anybody want to take a stab at crafting a letter to Grassley - a balanced mix of justified emotions, American values and solid facts, like the current petition - written in a way that is consistent with his previous positions (anti-immigration fraud, limited immigration, etc ...if you like, throw in other good stuff- family values, anti- abortion ; )

Maybe you could even start as - "I am an Indian / Chinese IT worker and a direct beneficiary of some of your previous actions in confronting individuals and companies engaged in immigration / H1B fraud. ....There are many others in my circle of friends who are grateful to you for cleaning up a signifant segment of the IT consulting business by your legislative initiatives...blah, blah" and then come to HR 3012.

I know some of you think he is a goner...but I think there is little harm in inundating him with these reasonable sounding, non-confrontational letters. Who knows, it might soften him up just a little bit to be more receptive to his other Senator colleagues. At worst, we may be able to just register as a counterpoint to all the thank you / adulatory letters his staff is getting from the anti-FIFOers.

What say?

[tendlya]

Signed. Here is one good supporting article on HR-3012.
http://hr3012.wordpress.com/

(Posting in the main thread as well for increased visibility)

Folks - I have created a petition that will send emails (for free) as well as printed letters (for a fee) to your respective senators.

http://www.petition2congress.com/5665/support-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-hr-3012/

This is a variant of the **'s petition - I have taken their content and edited it and included some thoughts of my own. To me, it reads better than the ** petition. I would urge you to spend the $9 it takes to send a printed version of the letter to the Senators - it definitely has more impact than just an email.

The link allows you to edit the petition before sending if you so wish. If you are making changes, then please share them with me so that I can collate the useful changes and edit the original petition with them.

[gcq]

- Yes, technically the bill can pass without him. If the Republicans really want to show they are doing something for the immigrants (after the Alabama/Arizona disasters), they can sidestep Grassley. The 60+ votes in the Senate are not a problem in my view. And Grassley's filibuster threats are most likely empty.

- I honestly do not think we can do anything to reason with Grassley. Firstly, we don't know what his true intentions are. Secondly, it is reported that Chaffetz/Lee/Rubio trio are going to "educate" him. Whatever is going to happen will be behind the scenes. This has got nothing to do with logic/reason. Absolutely dirty politics is at play here.

My 2 cents. I may be wrong, so please do what you feel is right, and I will generally support all action items listed here.
Again we are trying to split to appease an anti-immigrant senator. There is nothing wrong with consulting business. Whatever USCIS is doing is illegal in reference to consulting business. Democratic majority in the congress ( read union supporters) gave these anti-immigrants an opportunity to take a stab at consulting companies. Grassley was not just against consulting companies. He was against Microsoft too. He is basically against anything that is not corn related.

You can never get Grassley on your side. We can only get over him. ** has tried this with Grassley a lot. Never worked. He is an anti-immigrant. In fact he doesn't like non-europeans in this country.

[helpful_leo]

I know the bill can pass without Grassley, and is likely also filibuster-proof.

The question is - is the bill politically compelling enough to the other Senators to invoke all the complicated processes necessary to release the hold and make it filibuster-proof (cloture and related processes)? I am not sure- my bias is it is not!

It is clearly compelling enough to Grassley, so that he is engaging in this drama.

What drives that? Funding? Lobbies? Personal bias / values? Misinformation? Incomplete information? Likely, he just likes being an ass in general!

Since, numbersUSA and similar orgs have not taken a position on this, I do not think the anti-immigrant lobby is very much invested in this. Plus, if anything, this is a Republican bill. So I think the usual drivers of anti-immigrant activity / funding are not involved here.

It probably is - I am speculating here - a combination of personal eccentricity, visceral reaction to H1B related stuff and partial information. Like they say, never attribute to malice what can be....

Problem is, with all the letters and visits from individuals and "national organizations" that he is getting on HR 3012, he may unintentionally get drafted into this new mission - of preserving the diversity of immigrants, and such hocus-pocus. That is, if we allow that narrative to go unchallenged and do not provide a counterpoint.

Of course, I may just be being terribly naive and/or speculative here..

[gcq]

leo,
There is a Grassley equivalent in House, Steve King. Typically he alone could have sabotaged our bill. Not sure whether you noticed his amendments. In 2008 he as successful in preventing our recapture bill being taken up in judiciary committee by unlimited debate on the bill before that. It was the last days of the 111th congress. Though our bill was scheduled for that week, it never came up for a discussion.

This time none of his tricks worked because there was unified support from both democrats and republicans. Probably the same thing is going to happen in Senate after grassley's "look at me" drama.

We should do our part mailing/contacting and visiting senator's office.

[qesehmk]

Manubhai.

My experience is - the best way to do this on a forum is to open a thread and use the first post as the master. Next time you can try that.



q, helpful_leo - Please remove the old quoted text from your messages so that folks don't copy that version by mistake if they decide to post it outside of imdeng's petition.

Updated version is here (http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?211-Discussion-of-Bills-that-remove-the-Per-Country-Limits-H.R.2161-H.R.3012-H.R.3119&p=15081#post15081).

Thanks!

[tendlya]

I think this explanation is excellent to persuade someone like Grassley to support 3012. We should spread this kind of explanation more.



I agree with you. I was just replying to this Rural Iowa Argument that someone posted. But I just wanted to make people aware that Indian and Chinese Physicians are also severely suffering from EB2 backlogs (they are not in EB3) and IT is not the only sector suffering. We are not as big group as IT Professionals from India and China but our number is significant to get noticed. And we all are with you supporting you in this quest for fairness.

Just like you all, the Indian and Chinese Physicians have also been hindered from growing because of this backlog.

We can not accept promotions in bigger and better hospitals. (I had to refuse 4 promotional offers in last 6 months with bigger and better salaries because I can't change an employer at this point)

Medical Fellowships (sub-specialization) are extremely hard to get in to on H1B because fellowship programs in US hospitals are funded by NIH and Medicare and prefer to take US Citizens and GC holders only.

You can get a fellowship on H1B but you have to have publications and strong recommendation letters from University Hospital Faculty Physicians.

But here is a vicious cycle. If you are an Indian physician on H1B, most likely you will end up in a rural area. --> If you are working in a rural area, mostly it will be a smaller hospital. --> You don't have a chance to do any research or publish any paper in a smaller hospital. --> You are not in contact with any University Faculty so forget about recommendation letters also. --> No research, no publications, no strong recommendation letters + longer time spent away from academic activity after graduation (MD) = No Fellowships/Very Tough to get.

Just to give you a simple example, in my program there were 23 resident doctors who were doing MD.

10 Indians, 4 Pakistanis, 2 Nepalese, 1 Nigerian, 1 Algerian, 1 Russian, 1 South Korean, 1 Philippino, 1 Syrian, 1 Iranian.

Out of those 23, except 10 Indians, everyone got their GCs in 6 months.

Out of those 10 Indian doctors, 9 came on student visa (including me) and have an additional Masters degree from a US University along with MD. Those 9 converted from F1 to H1B.

1 Indian doctor was on Research J1 and was doing research for 5 years in Cleveland Clinic.

1 Nigerian and 1 Nepalese doctor came on GC via GC lottery.

Rest of the doctors came here on visitor visas, gave their exams, did interviews and went back. When they secured residency positions, they all came back on H1B.

Now, here is an interesting fact. No medical residency program in US (except 2 programs out of more than 6000) will sponsor green cards because they know that we will finish our training after 3 years and leave so everyone does their residency on H1B only. Physician GCs are filed in 4th year of H1B only. (We all waste our first 3 years of H1B)

So all 21 people did their residency on H1B. (2 were already on GC via GC lottery).

Right now, all 9 Indian doctors are working as a primary care or hospitalists in small towns.

The ROW doctors have moved to fellowships or taken promotions after getting their GCs and none of them have published more than 1 paper and mostly have not published at all.

Algerian doctor - Echo Fellowship and Heart Failure Fellowship
Iranian doctor - Palliative and Hematology-Oncology Fellowship
South Korean Doctor - Nephrology Fellowship
Syrian Doctor - Nephrology Fellowship
Philippino Doctor - Endocrinology Fellowship
Russian Doctor - Pain Management Fellowship
Nigerian Doctor - Cardiology Fellowship
Pakistani Doctors (All 4) - Infectious Disease, Gastroenterology, Rheumatology, Pulmonary-Critical Care Fellowships
Nepalese Doctors (All 2) - Infectious Disease, Pulmonary-Critical Care Fellowships.
Indian Doctor (One with 5 year research experience) - Endocrinology Fellowship (due to EB1A GC with 35 publications as first author)

My Indian colleague has 5 publications. He applied for Gastroenterology and had no interview calls. (Reason given - We don't sponsor H1Bs)
My Pakistani colleague has 2 publications. He applied for Gastroenterology with GC in hand and had 5 interview calls. He is doing his fellowship right now.

This is just an example of my residency program. Imagine there are so many.

Sounds similar to problems other professionals from India and China face also, isn't it?

Is this ROW call fairness?

[helpful_leo]

leo,
There is a Grassley equivalent in House, Steve King. Typically he alone could have sabotaged our bill. Not sure whether you noticed his amendments. In 2008 he as successful in preventing our recapture bill being taken up in judiciary committee by unlimited debate on the bill before that. It was the last days of the 111th congress. Though our bill was scheduled for that week, it never came up for a discussion.

This time none of his tricks worked because there was unified support from both democrats and republicans. Probably the same thing is going to happen in Senate after grassley's "look at me" drama.

We should do our part mailing/contacting and visiting senator's office.

Yes, I am aware of King and his antics.

The problem, however, is that the House and Senate protocols for bill passage are significantly different. At least that is my rudimentary understaning of how the process works. The Senate protocols are such that it favors consensus building and therefore the rules are constructed such that even if a small percentage of senators -or even a single Senator- disagrees with a motion / bill, he can potentially defeat it. Yes, there are workarounds, but they are cumbersome.

This is the reason Holds and filibusters only exist in the Senate and not in the House. If they had existed in the House, I doubt HR 3012 would have had the smooth passage that it did.

[imdeng]

Did you mean his twitter account? Its @jasoninthehouse - I just sent him a message thanking him for his leadership on #HR3012

Does anyone have Twitter account to thank Mr.Jason Chaffetz ?

[asankaran]

There is interesting discussion going in Grassley's facebook page. I would request like minded folks to chime in about this bill

[sarthi]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,

[manubhai]

Manubhai.

My experience is - the best way to do this on a forum is to open a thread and use the first post as the master. Next time you can try that.

Q - Done. Here is the new thread (http://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php?284-Content-of-letter-or-petition-to-send-to-your-Senator-for-supporting-HR-3012).

[manubhai]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,

Great job, Sarthi. Thanks for the effort.

[feedmyback]

Good work on the facebook Asankaran... I read all of your posts and they are neat!! Although one sincere advise. The Guy who you are arguing with on facebook is an idiot. You will understand that it is a waste of you time to really prolong dialog with him, once you read one of his posts that I picked on some other wall. Although he is giving a picture as if he is a US citizen and only wants it to be fair... In fact he is very selfish in his motives and this is what I found on face book from one of his posts on another person's wall who opposed HR3012.

"AND Yes this is a personal issuse for me My baby was or might get his green card in ten days but it take 6 month to the process before he actually will recieve his card. If at anytime during the 6 months they pass this law he and anyone not from india or china will be pushed back to close to 12 years. I am ON MY KNEES begging my family and friends to go to this link and OPPOSE this law!! it isnt right that he not get what he has earned and other that came after him get to cut in line and take this away from him and others to have to wait this long. it is INJUSTICE at it worst So igain I am on my knees and begging for your help.... thanks and please share this on your page..."

He is one selfish idiot trying to prolong a discussion. I guess it will be wise not to waste our energies talking to such selfish idiots. I am sure whatever you say he will just keep attacking you. My 2 cents....


asankaran good going in the facebook
I think some more face bookers can join hands with Arunachalam Sankaran here ....http://www.facebook.com/grassley

[abcx13]

There are at least three ppl on Grassley's FB praising him for putting a hold on HR 3012. Unfortunately, the two ppl against the hold are Indians. Guess which way the wind is blowing?

I don't think Grassley is an idiot. I think he understands full well what this bill is about and how it doesn't impact American jobs. But he either hates non-Whites (feel free to be more PC about it) or is playing politics. In either case, no amount of reasoning is going to convince him in my opinion.

[asankaran]

I agree, but I wanted to ensure that people like him are made to show themselves in poor light. Unfortunately these guys have started a smear campaign and we have to decently respond to it

Explain to your American friends and co-workers what this bill is about. If they are sympathetic to it at all, ask them to post a message on Grassley's FB wall. It won't take them much time.

I am going to start doing it. And asankaran - I agree with the others that you are wasting your time with the American poster there, who has made up his mind.

[rick94102]

As you know Immigration Voice is actively participating in promoting HR3012.

Immigration Voice was mentioned by Rep chafftez during the debate on the floor of house.

You are requested to visit www dot immigration voice (one word)dot ORG and send email to your respective senators.

They have also explained why it is important to send email through them.

[rick94102]

Manu bhai.....please go to www dot immigration voice (one word).org and send mail through them.They have explained why it is important to send mail through them.

[vizcard]

Anyone writing should address the key points of objection that Grassley raises.
1. It could pave the path for increased numbers
2. American jobs
3. Diversity.

Also, dont assume he knows the exact process and the specifics i.e. individual must hold a job thats approved by DOL and application must be approved by USCIS as well.

From a fairness angle, describe a hypothetical. Eg. I applied in 2008, still waiting. Someone (non-IC) applying in 2010 would get a GC before me .. even with same degree and less work experience.

[Pedro Gonzales]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,

Good work. I'd remove the link to the blog you are rebutting and refer to them as 'a blog opposing HR3012 that purports to represent all skilled immigrants'. You don't want to drive traffic their way.

[imdeng]

There is now a rival petition to OPPOSE HR-3012/S-1857:
They have 44 letters so far. We have 318.
Everyone - please be active - use Facebook, Twitter (#HR3012), Letters/Emails/Calls to your Senators - use **'s interface for it if you don't have a strong preference against it.

[kd2008]

Hi friends,

I maintain http://hr3012.wordpress.com and supporting it on principle(making the process first-come and first-serve). If you feel you have something to add, please contact me by commenting on any post there and I will add that to the blog.

Thanks,


H.R. 3012 Increase VISA numbers.

HR 3012 *****DOES NOT***** increase any numeric limit… It’s an effort to fix broken Employment based Immigration system and makes it first-come first-serve basis. Keep in mind that the people benefiting from it are already in US and employed by US companies LEGALLY.

This is a great effort! Thanks!

"H.R. 3012 Increase Visa Number" is plain bad grammar and misleading. Please make it rhetorical. "Does H.R. 3012 increase number of visas?"

Also please remember it is "visa" and not "VISA." VISA refers to the credit card processing company VISA. What we get at consulates is a "visa."

[Jonty Rhodes]

12/01/2011: H.R. 3012 in the Senate: Guess What - Halted For A While!

The Senate glossary reflects that hold means "an informal practice by which a Senator informs his or her floor leader that he or she does not wish a particular bill or other measure to reach the floor for consideration. The Majority Leader need not follow the Senator's wishes, but is on notice that the opposing Senator may filibuster any motion to proceed to consider the measure." It thus appears the action involves not his decision as the Ranking Member of Judiciary Committee but as a member of the Senate on the Senate floor. According to this definition, unless Senator Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader ignores Sen. Grassley's wish or Senator Grassley himself withdraw his wish, the bill cannot even reach the Judiciary Committee. Additionally, should the Majority Leader ignores his wish and entertain a motion to proceed, it is likely to result in "filibuster" by the Senator Grassley, and unless the filibuster can be broken by 60 or more votes out of total 100 Senators, the bill will be destined to fail. Without doubt, Senators's phone, fax, email, text messaging or other contracts by pro and con forces must be burning now.

Traditionally, employment-based piecemeal immigration reform has faced two hawks in the Senate. One is labor union-backer legislators and the other is anti-immigration legislators. The labor unions in this country have welcome guest workers in the farm and related industry because they help the union to expand its political power since such workers are unionized work forces but opposed the high tech professional workers that are not unionized work forces. Senator Dick Durbin, the Senate majority whip, and Senator Chuck Grassley have gained a reputation as the American Worker Protectionists. They have initated a numerous legislative bills to restrict H-1B and L-1B programs and oppose piece-meal employment based immigration reform. However, when it comes to legalization of undocumented aliens, Sen. Dick Durbin is at forefront to support Comprehensive Immigration Reform, particularly so-called DREAM Act for undocumented youngster, while Sen. Chuck Grassley opposes legalization of undocumented aliens and Comprehensive Immigration Reform. It will be interesting how Rep. Chaffetz of Utah and Sen. Mike Lee of Utah will be able to negotiate with Sen. Grassley to remove the first road block to the Senate consent to the bill, i.e. scheduling of the bill in the Judiciary Committee. Ranking member in a committee in the Congress is similar to a "co-chair" of the committee representing the minority (party) members of the committee in the House or the Senate. Since the Republican party is a minority group in the Senate, in the Senate committees, there are Republican Ranking Members and when it comes to a bill which is sponsored by the Republican party Senators, the Democrat Chairs of the Committees must work with the Ranking Members to schedule hearings and mark-ups for the bills which are sponsored by the minority party House Representatives in the House and the minority party Senators in the Senate. In the Republican House of Representatives, the Chair of Judiciary Committee is Rep. Lamar Smith (R) and Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D) is the Ranking Member. In the Democratic Senate, the Chair of Judiciary Committee is Sen. Leahy (D) and Ranking Member is Sen. Chuck Grassley (R). Accordingly when it comes to the immigration legislations, Senator Chuck Grassley has a powerful bite and unless the two legislators from Utah are successful to work with their own party Ranking Member in the Judiciary Committee in the Senate, this bill has a slim chance to see any activities before the end of the year. Please stay tuned.

[redsox2009]

There is now a rival petition to OPPOSE HR-3012/S-1857:
They have 44 letters so far. We have 318.
Everyone - please be active - use Facebook, Twitter (#HR3012), Letters/Emails/Calls to your Senators - use **'s interface for it if you don't have a strong preference against it.

Count is 470 and increasing........................

[kuku82]

The opposition count is 1400+ in the rival petition............do you guys think this a cause for worry? This seems to be some sort of concerted ROW effort......the count seems to increasing in 10's and 20's every hour.......

[immitime]

The opposition count is 1400+ in the rival petition............do you guys think this a cause for worry? This seems to be some sort of concerted ROW effort......the count seems to increasing in 10's and 20's every hour.......

If anything happens in Washinton with online petition, then things are easier, Yes we can send online petition just to inform Senators that does not mean that Senators will favour anyone, It all depends on political lobbying and how the bill supporters in Congress and Senate convince Grassley or ignore him for a clouture motion.

Lets wait for the good thing to happen.

[imdeng]

There is an ** petition in the same site where we hosted our petition. It is even a half-copy of our petition (the latter half is identical except a 'Member - ****************' insertion) - no credit to us of course - which is fine - whatever helps put more positive effect on HR-3012 is fine with me. This petition is growing rapidly and has eclipsed the opposing petition. Please sign this petition, even if you have signed the petition started by me with ManuBhai's help.
Link: http://www.petition2congress.com/5686/please-vote-yes-on-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-act/

If somebody has access to **'s leadership - please ask them to make the following changes:
1. Change the title to include "HR-3012" in it. Currently it just reads: "Please Vote 'Yes' on"
2. Emphasize to people signing the petition to spend $9 to send paper letters.
3. Currently they have selected the default option which sends letters to Senators, Congressman and President. They should perhaps change it to have the letters sent to only Senators since the letter is addressed to only Senators.

[helpful_leo]

Good going, guys.

Btw, if you find online articles that comment on HR 3012, take a minute to post the following comment, which is adapted from manubhai's original letter (just make sure somebody else from here has not posted the comment already), It encapsulates all our main arguments. Who knows, it might influence some senate staffers who are researching the bill online!

"Despite years of shrill partisanship and division over immigration, in H.R.3012, we now have a bill that puts aside all contentious aspects of immigration and is focused on attracting the best and brightest to America's shores, just as it always has.

That said, H.R. 3012 does NOT bring a single new person in to United States. It only aims to make the "process" of employment based immigration fair for the best and brightest English speaking, educated, tax-paying, law abiding, experienced professionals who have previously entered United States legally after proving their worth. H.R. 3012 is a technical fix that makes the process of employment based immigration more "American" because fairness is the quintessential American way.

H.R. 3012 proposes to remove the arbitrarily prescribed limit of 7% per country on annual allotment of green cards - the root cause of the unfairness. Because of this limit, applicants from populous countries like India, China and Philippines are subjected to an inhumane wait of more than 10-20 years to obtain their green cards.

Importantly, and to repeat:
1. This bill does NOT increase the number of immigrants allowed in the United States.
2. This bill eliminates an archaic provision of the current employment based immigration law that discriminates the amount of time an employment based applicant needs to wait based on his country of birth.
3. This bill will have no impact on the diversity of the immigrant pool (much less the diversity of the population of United States) because it only impacts a small percentage of the total immigrant pool entering United States.
4. This bill is a product of lawmakers on both sides of the aisle working together to produce small, beneficial results for the US economy. It has thus passed the House of Representatives with a 96% approval - a rare feat in today's times."

[kuku82]

Cool.

Am pretty sure almost all of us have noticed this: ** is asking for folks from Iowa specifically to contact their senators (yea...we know which one specifically) to vouch support for this bill.

I am not sure how many Iowans from I/C are stuck in the GC rut lest follow **. After doing a quick research on Indian associations in Iowa, this is what I found: http://www.iaaiowa.org/index2.html

I am going to write to the directors of this group and ask them to contact their members to write support letters for H.R. 3012 to their senators. I am not sure if any of this going to really help in releasing the hold on the bill, but am compelled to do something much more than following **'s action items.

Any opinion/feedback always welcome!!

[gcq]

Looks like IOWA indian organisation has a yahoo group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iaaiowa

[kuku82]

even better!

[Ra.One]

Cool.

Am pretty sure almost all of us have noticed this: ** is asking for folks from Iowa specifically to contact their senators (yea...we know which one specifically) to vouch support for this bill.

I am not sure how many Iowans from I/C are stuck in the GC rut lest follow **. After doing a quick research on Indian associations in Iowa, this is what I found: http://www.iaaiowa.org/index2.html

I am going to write to the directors of this group and ask them to contact their members to write support letters for H.R. 3012 to their senators. I am not sure if any of this going to really help in releasing the hold on the bill, but am compelled to do something much more than following **'s action items.

Any opinion/feedback always welcome!!


I've worked in Des Moines, IA for three years and I've had at least 25 friends that are looking to sign the letter(s) from different links and send it to Senators in next couple of days.

Is there any way for anyone to post all links clubbed together??

Btw, I was the one who posted a link saying that Senator Grassley's comments were hoax....and I was proven wrong the next day. Sorry about that. Mistake on my part.

[letheQ]

There is an ** petition in the same site where we hosted our petition. It is even a half-copy of our petition (the latter half is identical except a 'Member - ****************' insertion) - no credit to us of course - which is fine - whatever helps put more positive effect on HR-3012 is fine with me. This petition is growing rapidly and has eclipsed the opposing petition. Please sign this petition, even if you have signed the petition started by me with ManuBhai's help.
Link: http://www.petition2congress.com/5686/please-vote-yes-on-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-act/

If somebody has access to **'s leadership - please ask them to make the following changes:
1. Change the title to include "HR-3012" in it. Currently it just reads: "Please Vote 'Yes' on"
2. Emphasize to people signing the petition to spend $9 to send paper letters.
3. Currently they have selected the default option which sends letters to Senators, Congressman and President. They should perhaps change it to have the letters sent to only Senators since the letter is addressed to only Senators.

After seeing ur message. I checked the petition half of the message is copied . I am ** member ...they may have given you the credit . However we all should support .I request all members to sign the petition.

[imdeng]

Funny! :-) We need a little humor around here these days.


As I said, I wholeheartedly give them credit for laying open the tools that people could use. But I am not a big fan of anyone telling me that I'm good for nothing if -
1. I dont do exactly as they say.
2. I do anything other than what they say.
(3. They are not my H1 employer who are also sponsoring my green card.)

[imdeng]

Completely support ManuBhai's action item here - Call Your Senator. Do not be intimidated - you will be talking to a staffer - who will listen to you and will note down your message. Takes one minute. Write physical letters to your Senators - they are effective since the Senator's office needs to keep track of all written communication and need to reply with a written communication.


You are doing a big disservice to yourself if you are not making those 20 second phone calls. If you've never done one, please realize, its easier than eating a chocolate ice cream. They know why you've called... they listen to you finish your 3 sentences. And they say they've noted your opinion and will pass it on to the senator. Some may ask for your name and zip code. They thank you. You thank them.

At the end of the day, the precise numbers dont matter. The senator just needs to hear from their staff that they've been getting "way too many" calls in favor of this particular bill. The senator asks for a 5 minute review from an attorney and relations people on his staff. And then the senator talks to two other senators for their opinion. Soon... they are all talking. And voting.

[vizcard]

Sooooo does anyone know what the next steps and timeline are in terms of the bill. There's all this back door stuff that'll happen but formally what needs to happen? I assume its
1. Get past the Senate Judiciary Cmte
2. Get scheduled on the Senate calendar

Most likely #1 will happen quickly but its the second step that will take time, right ?

[jackbrown_890]

Sportfan33, i was just reporting same news.. anyways, the report is from IrishEmigrant org website of MA chapter. And they are pushing for this amendment. And if i am not wrong they are asking irish community to call Kerry/brown to add this amendment.

If this amendment is added to this bill, I am going to ask Senator from my state to add an amendment to this bill Special visa for "jackbrown_890 + dependants + family + friends + q's forum members". lol.
Seriously, I hope Kerry/brown won't add this amendment. But lets wait and see.

[Pedro Gonzales]

What in the name of God is going on with this bill in the Senate?

This is from the OH's website.

"12/06/2011: Prsssures from Various Interest Groups Mushroom to Amend H.R. 3012 in the Senate

Sen. Grassley's action represents interest of one segment of interest groups in the country - Either to kill or strengthen restriction to the employment-based immigration for the alleged interest of American workers. There are also other interest groups that want to see this bill fail in the Senate because of alleged negative impact of this bill on those countries. Diverse interests which play out in the political process involving H.R. 3012 do not end there. There is a third group that wants to add their countries to give advantage to their countrries in employment-based visa numbers. Report indicates that the Irish group has just begun a campaign adding pressures on the Senators from Massachusetts to amend H.R. 3012 adding "Irish E-3 Amendment" to provide 10,500 annual visas (plus dependents) for Irish men and women to come legally to work in the U.S. Their proposed amendment would require a job here, and undocumented workers currently here could apply for waivers to use the new visa. The applicable skill level would be the same as the Diversity Lottery. Their Senator John Kerry (D) is a senior and powerful legislator in the Senate. From the perspectives of the initial H.R. 3012 sponsor, such forces can be allies in that it could help the bill pass in the Senate, albeit with amendments. Read on. "

I honestly did not think people like John Kerry etc. are going to be involved in a bill we thought was too insignificant. Apparently not! On one hand, OH seems to say that the bill will push forward in the Senate with some amendments, but on the other hand, we have always thought no amendments can do it any good.

Where is OH getting all this information?

I sincerely doubt that would happen. Let's remove all quotas..... except let's allow the Irish a separate quota. :)

[jackbrown_890]

I agree jackbrown. Talk about a ridiculous amendment! And why 10,500? I wonder...10000 was a nice round number, I did not understand the logic of this number that they pulled out of their hat.

I don't think this E-3 amendment has any merit and Kerry is not stupid to fall for this. However OH is still saying that "interest groups" with countries that are affected want to kill this bill. I wonder which countries he is talking about.

I guess we have a battle on our hand and I wonder if it is time to act as one group instead of individuals. Unfortunately the said group is hated here, but we may not have a choice at this point.

As far as i know - so far Irish (with this amendment) and Nepalese (asking all their members to support to kill the bill) community...

[jackbrown_890]

1. It seems Grassley wants H1B restrictions.
2. Some other "unknown" interest groups want the bill to fail, although we don't know a Senator who has called out for the alleged countries that will suffer.
3. The crazy irish want their separate quota.

I believe only Grassley has merit. I don't think any other Senators are going to care whether Pakistani/Syrian/Iranian/Ghanian/Venezualan gets a visa over an Indian. We know that EB2/3 immigration is dominated by 3rd world countries, and it makes no sense that the exclusive rich white men/women club in the Senate care to protect a smaller third world country from a larger one.

The Irish amendment is just ridiculous. It is just reported in a local paper. I don't think Kerry is gonna fall for that, but you never know. After all, he managed to lose his election quite spectacularly to a chimp.

I feel if Grassley can be convinced with minimal amendments, the bill will be rammed through the Senate. That's what our focus should be - the Indian friends in Iowa.

Yup, Grassley would want to attach H1b reform probably. I just hope it doesn't open up a floodgate for amendments from Senate Dems. Because they would probably want to attach DREAM Act to this bill.

[vizcard]

this is going to be a total cluster. the fact that it went through so easily in the House is the reason why they all want to jump on this. I hope House bill sponsors can convince Grassley to drop his Hold. As for amendments, they have to be approved too. Those will most likely be killed even if at all they are raised. There's no way any Congressman is going to support a country-specific amendment to this bill.

[Pedro Gonzales]

I feel if Grassley can be convinced with minimal amendments, the bill will be rammed through the Senate. That's what our focus should be - the Indian friends in Iowa.

I agree wholeheartedly. In fact, he may be convinced sans amendments if a couple of key Dems agree to back Grassley's own bill asking for stricter H1B enforcement. Not a bad step, I think, although I haven't actually read his bill.

[immitime]

When a bill comes to the Senate, mostly this kind of bargaining is expected, and here Like "Horse Trading" things may be amended according to the interest groups influence and lobbying power, to avoid fillibuster, Senators supporting this bill may agree to add amendment.

But definitely not the Irish E-3 thing. because this bill itself is for "Fairness" in immigration, to treat every EB immigrant as equal immaterial of which country he/she is from (at least within three years (2012 to 2014)) The Irish argument and what they are asking is senseless and right away will be rejected by their respective Senators. And the Irish bill can be another separate bill which should pass through Congress,again

Otherwise as jack_brown said, Q's forum, can ask its own quota for EB immigration. Lets wait for the drama to unfold.

[RMS_V13]

This Bill has opened a can of worms if anything else. Another popular immigration forum is full of hate posts. I do not feel safe to even get on the site anymore. I hear there is a yahoo forum for the other Team and that they are approaching anti immigrant organization to vote against HR 3012. I never knew anti immigrant org = anti Indian org. This Bill has truly brought out the worst, ugly side of both teams

[gcq]

Irish amendment or any other amendment for that matter will not be added IMO. There are stronger groups looking for Immigration reform who has kept silent on this bill. DREAM act proponents, they are powerful. Have we even heard of them asking to add DREAM to this ? Illegal immigrant groups, they haven't asked either. These amendments has no chance of being added to this bill as far as I can see.

Grassley has always been like these. He has been trying to attach Durbin-Grassley H1B reform to any bill that comes along.

[gcq]

in EB ROW forum, they tried to contact Programmer's guild. Relevant portions from the response.

I am glad that Senator Grassley is speaking against it. But I don't know that he can sway the majority vote.

[immitime]

Grassley and Durbin H1b so called reform bill explained by Sheela Murthy website.(way back in 2009) I think they are trying to get this included in any bill named "immigration" But it is difficult to include in any bill. these ideas are hardcore and antibusiness, They tried this in 2009 and they want to try the same 2012 also.

http://www.murthy.com/news/n_durgra.html

Bill text

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.887:

Grassley's website says he want to do this this time too.

http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/Article.cfm?customel_dataPageID_1502=30928

[Jonty Rhodes]

I think convincing Grassley is going to be one tough job for Chaffetz and Lee. I personally think Grassley doesn't have a clue about the EB green card system. He has just blocked the bill because it is related to immigration and he is an anti-immigrant in general. Either he will be persistent in his demand to attach his amendments for H1B or he will just try to kill the bill. This whole system of just one senator being able to put an illogical hold on the bill saying it does not protect American workers and harm the entire bill is really terrible.