Discussion On The Politics of Immigration Reform (Comprehensive Or Otherwise)

[qesehmk]

Politics is part of it. But this administration at least is trying to do something. The gop is opposed to all kinds of immigration. Period.
I cannot believe that how gullible employment based immigrants can be even after repeated false starts. The announcement drama and the the fiasco of no announcement was totally expected. Until illegals get their pound of flesh, this administration will do absolutely nothing for legals. So if there is no expanded DACA/DAPA due to the current court case then there is nothing for us.

[nbk1976]

So if are illegal, even with the current blockade by the district court, you may not be deported under Obama's executive order, but if you are legal, waiting for over a decade for a GC, if your I-484 is denied, even over a minor technicality, you will be NOIDed and deported as per the law, and DHS will not apply prosecutorial discretion and overlook your presence. Obama's executive order wont protect you.

How absurd this whole thing is!


I cannot believe that how gullible employment based immigrants can be even after repeated false starts. The announcement drama and the the fiasco of no announcement was totally expected. Until illegals get their pound of flesh, this administration will do absolutely nothing for legals. So if there is no expanded DACA/DAPA due to the current court case then there is nothing for us.

[qesehmk]

All those who have a problem with obama's exec order - try getting anything done with GOP. Bringing in politics muddles things and serves no purpose. If u must bring politics in then at least study eb immigration and enlighten everybody what if at all both parties havedone for eb immigration. Otherwise your views are utter waste and doing disservice to eb immigrants.

[kd2008]

All those who have a problem with obama's exec order - try getting anything done with GOP. Bringing in politics muddles things and serves no purpose. If u must bring politics in then at least study eb immigration and enlighten everybody what if at all both parties havedone for eb immigration. Otherwise your views are utter waste and doing disservice to eb immigrants.

Q, I completely agree with you. Big O is our best bet. At the same time I want folks to be realistic and not get caught up in hoopla of announcements, delays of announcements, rule making blah blah. It is important to have the perspective that until expanded DACA/DAPA are implemented, nothing is to be implemented for the legals at least for GC stuff. Yes, there will plenty of "chirimiri" type things like H-4 EAD, expanded EB1-OR evidence acceptance etc. The only important thing from our perspective is ability to file I-485 once I-140 approved, and if not that then date movements (for which this site is the best predictor bar none).

[qesehmk]

Yes KD. I too think people shouldn't get caught up in hype. Couldn't agree more.

Even disagreement is fine (rather great!) when we can learn something from each other - because then it doesn't just help you and me - but it helps the readers too.


At the same time I want folks to be realistic and not get caught up in hoopla of announcements, delays of announcements, rule making blah blah. It is important to have the perspective that until expanded DACA/DAPA are implemented, nothing is to be implemented for the legals at least for GC stuff. Yes, there will plenty of "chirimiri" type things like H-4 EAD, expanded EB1-OR evidence acceptance etc. The only important thing from our perspective is ability to file I-485 once I-140 approved...

[idiotic]

All those who have a problem with obama's exec order - try getting anything done with GOP. Bringing in politics muddles things and serves no purpose. If u must bring politics in then at least study eb immigration and enlighten everybody what if at all both parties havedone for eb immigration. Otherwise your views are utter waste and doing disservice to eb immigrants.

I disagree GOP won't do anything on immigration if they have their way. They are working to reduce immigration into half.
http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/GR/FAIR_Congressional_Agenda_114th.pdf

Thanks God things are stalled in Congress.

[kd2008]

Yes KD. I too think people shouldn't get caught up in hype. Couldn't agree more.

Even disagreement is fine (rather great!) when we can learn something from each other - because then it doesn't just help you and me - but it helps the readers too.

Another case in point ...supposedly there is an event to be held next month in DC for HR 213 or whatever the current flavor is of the bill to remove country quotas....to drum up Republican support for it. This is after the said group has come in favor of Big O's exec order. Tell me which Republican leadership is going to support this effort no matter how sensible the thing you are fighting for is everybody's eyes.

I appreciate the community building effort and grassroots effort but it is misleading in my eyes to lead people into false belief that such events help one bit in moving the needle or the cause. It does not. Just ask all the groups that have and are fighting for the undocumented. May be I am jaded and cynical but I have also lived in this country over a decade and seen no meaningful change in quotas or the politics. 2 yr EAD ..EB2 before EB3 for spillover etc ...things like that ...not to diminish their value but you get the gist.

[redwood]

May be I am jaded and cynical

Yes you are.

[qesehmk]

kd - i agree with you on the futility of the effort.

The reason that effort is futile is because immigration is not just an economic but political and strategic imperative for United States. Advocacy won't help especially when you are NOT addressing the other party's view points!!!

The only thing that is going to work is a legal challenge to the quota system. The law will have to address your grievance and validate the constitutionality of the country quota system against discrimination laws which clearly say that one can't be discriminated against based on nationality. I have also said previously that not only this is against existing anti-discrimination laws but also perhaps against the constitution which is based upon fundamental American belief that "All men are created equal".

The moment DOS puts you in a different line based purely on where you were born --- that is discrimination and is against the creed of equality at birth.

** -- is full of idiots who are full of themselves. Either they don't understand the game or they are taking immigrant community for a ride.

My recommendation to EB guys on this forum is - organize and form an organization with the single short term goal of challenging the country quota. Don't have any other goal. Just keep this one simple goal in mind.

I personally already am through the GC door. Lucky me. It's your fight. Take up the challenge. I am sure you will win. I will help what i can through this forum.

For one reason or other all other EB groups have eased their pain somehow or other. EB-I (both EB2 and EB3) are left with Katora in their hands. Even with EO - your slavery will continue. **'s agenda - although I wish them well - is not going to make any material difference.


Another case in point ...supposedly there is an event to be held next month in DC for HR 213 or whatever the current flavor is of the bill to remove country quotas....to drum up Republican support for it. This is after the said group has come in favor of Big O's exec order. Tell me which Republican leadership is going to support this effort no matter how sensible the thing you are fighting for is everybody's eyes.

I appreciate the community building effort and grassroots effort but it is misleading in my eyes to lead people into false belief that such events help one bit in moving the needle or the cause. It does not. Just ask all the groups that have and are fighting for the undocumented. May be I am jaded and cynical but I have also lived in this country over a decade and seen no meaningful change in quotas or the politics. 2 yr EAD ..EB2 before EB3 for spillover etc ...things like that ...not to diminish their value but you get the gist.

[abcx13]

I agree with Q that advocating to remove the country quotas is our best bet. If any forum members are interested in trying to do something, I would like to be a part of the effort. I can volunteer time but will probably be unable to travel to DC for advocacy. PM or post if people are interested in getting something off the ground.

[axecapone]

Totally on a side note, I wanted to pitch in about possible H1B extension complications because of the H4 EAD rule. Moderators, if this needs to be put somewhere more appropriate, please feel free to do so.

I was chatting with my attorneys today about it. Earliest extension of H1B is 6 months before the expiration. So basically you have 6 months to file your H1/H4 extension and also file your H4 EAD extension application. Although you can file it all these applications concurrently, I was told the H4 EAD processing time is 90 days (3 months) since the approval of the H1/H4 extension (Whats the point of concurrent filing??). That gives us only 3 months to for approval of the actual extension. Its not uncommon for USCIS to take 3 months for processing H1B extension which is cutting it close. If there is RFE, this just makes the situation worse and the spouse may have to quit her job when the EAD expired. (Note that once the EAD has expired, you are not authorized to work even if there is a pending application).

This means that you may have to do premium processing on extensions which may have been quite unnecessary before. Many companies (like the place I work for) don't pay for premium processing on extensions, so it may have to come out of your pocket. Added to that, USCIS has stopped accepting premium processing for H1B extension till July 27th.

It feels like BO gave us something and also feels like he gave us nothing.

[gten20]

Totally on a side note, I wanted to pitch in about possible H1B extension complications because of the H4 EAD rule. Moderators, if this needs to be put somewhere more appropriate, please feel free to do so.

I was chatting with my attorneys today about it. Earliest extension of H1B is 6 months before the expiration. So basically you have 6 months to file your H1/H4 extension and also file your H4 EAD extension application. Although you can file it all these applications concurrently, I was told the H4 EAD processing time is 90 days (3 months) since the approval of the H1/H4 extension (Whats the point of concurrent filing??). That gives us only 3 months to for approval of the actual extension. Its not uncommon for USCIS to take 3 months for processing H1B extension which is cutting it close. If there is RFE, this just makes the situation worse and the spouse may have to quit her job when the EAD expired. (Note that once the EAD has expired, you are not authorized to work even if there is a pending application).

This means that you may have to do premium processing on extensions which may have been quite unnecessary before. Many companies (like the place I work for) don't pay for premium processing on extensions, so it may have to come out of your pocket. Added to that, USCIS has stopped accepting premium processing for H1B extension till July 27th.

It feels like BO gave us something and also feels like he gave us nothing.

To be fair.. it's not on BO.. it's USCIS who cant handle the workload.

[idiotic]

I disagree GOP won't do anything on immigration if they have their way. They are working to reduce immigration into half.
http://www.fairus.org/DocServer/GR/FAIR_Congressional_Agenda_114th.pdf

Thanks God things are stalled in Congress.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-announces-plans-to-set-up-immigration-taskforce-to-cut-migration-10267048.html

Conservative party in UK also on same lines. Will be no surprise if all republicans will tend to move more right on immigration in US here.

[gten20]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-announces-plans-to-set-up-immigration-taskforce-to-cut-migration-10267048.html

Conservative party in UK also on same lines. Will be no surprise if all republicans will tend to move more right on immigration in US here.

Christie already started the trend.

[kd2008]

Rule making process initiated for I-140 EAD

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201504&RIN=1615-AC05

NO specifics. wait wait wait ..just like before ...wait wait wait ...tiny slivers of hope ...wait wait wait...

[idiotic]

Rule making process initiated for I-140 EAD

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201504&RIN=1615-AC05

NO specifics. wait wait wait ..just like before ...wait wait wait ...tiny slivers of hope ...wait wait wait...

Details are here.. 6 page doc already released early this week

http://blog.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2015/05/15/white-house-proposal-would-grant-work-cards-to-backlogged-employment-green-card-applicants/

[gten20]

TCS, Infosys under probe for H1B voilations
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/us-opens-probe-against-tcs-infosys-for-h1b-visa-violations/article7309212.ece

[CleanSock]

Republican presidential hopeful wants to curb legal immigration.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/06/us-usa-election-immigration-idUSKCN0PG0AS20150706

Why am I not surprised at all? Hopefully all immigrants who have the power to vote come out and drive out such nut jobs.

[vizcard]

it is unlikely the GOP will win the presidential election but it also unlikely that the grid lock in Congress is going to go away. So major policy decisions are not going to made without truly diluting the original intent.

[imdeng]

I don't think it is unlikely at all that GOP wins in 2016. At best its a 50:50 crapshoot.

Anyways - the recent escalation in nativist rhetoric in GOP is very alarming. In 2017, GOP may have the presidency along with majorities in the house and the senate. Only think standing between them and anti-immigration legislation will be a democratic filibuster. Its scary.

Posterity will remember how Boehner let go of the best opportunity to do immigration reform. If only he had brought the senate bill to the house floor.


it is unlikely the GOP will win the presidential election but it also unlikely that the grid lock in Congress is going to go away. So major policy decisions are not going to made without truly diluting the original intent.

[vizcard]

I don't think it is unlikely at all that GOP wins in 2016. At best its a 50:50 crapshoot.

Anyways - the recent escalation in nativist rhetoric in GOP is very alarming. In 2017, GOP may have the presidency along with majorities in the house and the senate. Only think standing between them and anti-immigration legislation will be a democratic filibuster. Its scary.

Posterity will remember how Boehner let go of the best opportunity to do immigration reform. If only he had brought the senate bill to the house floor.

"at best" ? :)

[nbk1976]

If the economy improves and people feel financially more secure (i.e. Obama's approval remains at 50%), there is no way GOP can come in. GOP are fear-mongers and they would love to have a situation where they can spook enough independents to vote for them.

As of now, the Democrats have a better shot: the economy is improving and they have a far better candidate.

[na_dev]

Saw this petition making rounds online. Thought some members will be interested to sign in support for it.

Thanks!

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/allow-filing-i-765-ead-and-i-131-ap-upon-i-140-approval-4

[gs1968]

Saw this in a tweet message earlier

http://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/significant-change-to-us-department-of-state-visa-bulletin#sthash.kaUUXFQd.uxfs&st_refDomain=t.co&st_refQuery=/DGc4GcbS2b

[qesehmk]

Rubio supporting H1B!

Who would've thunk!

[idiotic]

http://www.renewoureconomy.org/about/

The pro-immigration advocacy group led by Michael Bloomberg is already shifting its focus to 2017, with a new campaign launching Wednesday focused largely on making the economic case for overhauling the immigration system and giving cover to GOP lawmakers on the issue.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/immigration-bloomberg-congress-republicans-226587#ixzz4GHeiOyzn
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook

[HarepathekaIntezar]

Totally agree. Perhaps, those involved with advocacy organizations should raise this issue and make enough noise to deter such tendency to misallocate visas. We know they are all into HR392 etc. but pursuing an all or nothing agenda keeps setting us back bit by bit. It is in the interest of all concerned about EB backlogs to stop EB1 from walking away with more than 40,000 visas in a given year unless those visas are FB spillovers. If a fraction of the activism was directed towards making sure that the current laws are obeyed, we would be much better off.

The same diligent USCIS and CO, who carefully advance EB2 by 3 days (seriously!) when not retrogressing EB2 and EB3 to an extent that these categories end up getting up to 3000 to 4000 visas less than their allocation, are (intentionally?) sleeping when EB1 somehow gets more than their share of visas issued. One would think they would be more diligent in making sure that the backlogged categories get every last visa that is properly due to them rather than lending their weight to further weigh the scales against them.

HR392 is a dead horse they are beating up on. It ain't gonna go anywhere other than the graveyard. The right wing extremes like Freedom Caucus who oppose ALL Immigration including DACA and Legal Immigration are already showing their fangs by destroying the lil bit of good work done by Obama with regards to H4 EAD, OPT and H1B.

[march1612]

So far EB3 has been robbed of the visas, I don't know if EB2 lost any. But I would hold CO responsible for any such EB Visa robbery. He has the authority to advance the Dates so that no Visas are lost, but has lacked the vision to do so. Wonder why he is revered and regarded so highly by AILA and Q's gurus.

Previous Administration executive order mandate to use all unused numbers within current FY. This has corrected previous process of leaving the numbers unused even though the demand was available.

I wish filing dates were honored and efficiently used.

[Positive]

Previous administration did more damage than good in my opinion. They misled the backlogged community and did so intentionally and with malice, if not also corruptly . What else can explain all the hoopla about I-140 EAD provision by executive order. The entire farce of the rule making process, and the taxpayer money spent cannot be justified by the narrow scope of its intended beneficiary population. Why would an agency go through rule making to benefit 7 people an year? There were enough provisions in the existing laws to take care of such extreme cases.

[HarepathekaIntezar]

Previous administration did more damage than good in my opinion. They misled the backlogged community and did so intentionally and with malice, if not also corruptly . What else can explain all the hoopla about I-140 EAD provision by executive order. The entire farce of the rule making process, and the taxpayer money spent cannot be justified by the narrow scope of its intended beneficiary population. Why would an agency go through rule making to benefit 7 people an year? There were enough provisions in the existing laws to take care of such extreme cases.

Just because the I-140 EAD provision did not work out to your benefit means the the previous admin did more damage?:rolleyes:

[Positive]

Just because the I-140 EAD provision did not work out to your benefit means the the previous admin did more damage?:rolleyes:
Who did it work out for? Oh, yes, the sweat shops. And that wasn't the only damage the Obama admin did. They also added a form J (oh yes, more power to the employers and more begging by the "beneficiaries." And who can forget the visa bulletin reversal, and the whole final action and filing date tamasha. 😬😰😱😳😠

[iatiam]

Just because the I-140 EAD provision did not work out to your benefit means the the previous admin did more damage?:rolleyes:

Also the influx of illegal immigrant kids to the southern border which ended up overusing EB4 visas. This was the result of Obama giving EADs to the so-called Dreamers.

And H4EAD was not to Obama's credit. It was already in the works. He just took credit for it.


Not can we get back to predictions business please.

[HarepathekaIntezar]

No point in arguing with trumpkins. They will support blindly and argue illogically and justify everything including the abolition of H4EAD, Introduction of Interviews for AOS, screwing up the OPT and H1B. They will even support a 'Pathway for illegals' if it suits their argument.

[HarepathekaIntezar]

Did we lost some posts between 2016 and yesterday? The thread is now 102 pages, down from 126 pages yesterday.

[qesehmk]

Did we lost some posts between 2016 and yesterday? The thread is now 102 pages, down from 126 pages yesterday.

Nope ...just moved the politics discussion to its own thread :)

The predictions/calculations thread is in its place.

[HarepathekaIntezar]

Nope ...just moved the politics discussion to its own thread :)

The predictions/calculations thread is in its place.

Good idea.

[gs1968]

There is a draft proposal circulating of the compromise immigration bill to be voted on next Thursday and I have provided a link to it below
2 notable points for EB green cards

1.Increase in total visas available
2.Elimination of per country limitations for EB visas

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article213116679.html

However it must be remembered that at this stage this has a very long shot of becoming law. We should still keep our hopes high

[Positive]

No, we should keep our hopes low and if something does happens, it will be a pleasant surprise. The community has seen false hopes raised too many times only to be let down. Not just that, lot of people changed or deferred their plans in such hopes, adding to their misery. Note that Franco Ordonez is a pal of Leon Fresco, the current lobbyist for IV. Among his most notable contributions is very successfully starting fear mongering on proposed abolition of post 6 year H1B extensions earlier this year.

[abcx13]

There is a draft proposal circulating of the compromise immigration bill to be voted on next Thursday and I have provided a link to it below
2 notable points for EB green cards

1.Increase in total visas available
2.Elimination of per country limitations for EB visas

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article213116679.html

However it must be remembered that at this stage this has a very long shot of becoming law. We should still keep our hopes high

From the article:



Democrats had hopes that a bill more to their liking would get a vote, but that's now unlikely. As a result, Republicans are likely to have a difficult time cobbling together a coalition to pass either bill.

House Democrats were reluctant to back either bill Wednesday. California Reps. Jimmy Gomez and Jim Costa, both Democrats, acknowledged the slim likelihood of getting an immigration deal they would support.

[qesehmk]

I think by clubbing any increase in visas the sponsors are guaranteeing that the bill will die without getting a vote.

This is an old tactic by which you get to champion the bill but you also include a provision that will be toxic.

A funny historical tidbit ---- The civil rights act of 1964 was originally written without "gender" being part of non discrimination. The folks opposed to it insisted on including "gender" along with race religion national origin and color. They thought it would make the bill toxic. But surprisingly it got passed and that's how women got their dues and their participation in workforce improved since then!!

There is a draft proposal circulating of the compromise immigration bill to be voted on next Thursday and I have provided a link to it below
2 notable points for EB green cards

1.Increase in total visas available
2.Elimination of per country limitations for EB visas

https://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article213116679.html

However it must be remembered that at this stage this has a very long shot of becoming law. We should still keep our hopes high

[gs1968]

No, we should keep our hopes low and if something does happens, it will be a pleasant surprise. The community has seen false hopes raised too many times only to be let down. Not just that, lot of people changed or deferred their plans in such hopes, adding to their misery. Note that Franco Ordonez is a pal of Leon Fresco, the current lobbyist for IV. Among his most notable contributions is very successfully starting fear mongering on proposed abolition of post 6 year H1B extensions earlier this year.

I agree with so many false starts for the country cap elimination bills and as of now we do not even know if it will be retained in the final version of the Bill. The last I checked a majority of the House judiciary committee had not signed on as co-sponsors. The general feeling is that both bills will fail to pass with different blocs voting against it in face of unified Democratic opposition. The compromise Bill actually includes all "DACA eligible" population as opposed to the Goodlatte Bill which only covers current DACA recipients. Moreover a bill that is hastily put together in 1 week with no hearings/mark-ups or other due process usually implies low faith in passage. The Senate is a whole different story altogether. President Trump is a wild card also.During the Senate debate he was strongly in favor of Senator Grassley's Bill which received the fewest votes (39 including some mercy votes as it was the last Bill voted on) and he may be reluctant to back a bill if it is doomed to fail.
On a different note the Administration is trying its best legally to finish the program off

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/here-s-how-trump-administration-trying-shut-down-daca-n882471

[Positive]

If the country cap ever gets removed, it will be because of the increasing EB5 china backlog. https://therealdeal.com/2018/06/13/chinese-eb-5-investors-in-major-new-york-developments-want-their-millions-back/We all know how money can make things move swiftly. Exhibit A -the astonishing ease with which the tax bill passed to cut corporate tax rates from 35 to 20% with literally non-existent opposition from democrats.

[rocketfast]

No, we should keep our hopes low and if something does happens, it will be a pleasant surprise. The community has seen false hopes raised too many times only to be let down. Not just that, lot of people changed or deferred their plans in such hopes, adding to their misery. Note that Franco Ordonez is a pal of Leon Fresco, the current lobbyist for IV. Among his most notable contributions is very successfully starting fear mongering on proposed abolition of post 6 year H1B extensions earlier this year.

I chuckled when you mentioned about Franco Ordonez. I totally bought the fear mongering so much that, I even spoke to a realtor to get my house to the market to sell before everyone else starts selling :p. Luckily, better sense prevailed.

[HarepathekaIntezar]

Check this out:

https://judiciary.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/011018-Securing-Americas-Future-Act-Final.pdf
https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000163-ffcd-d9aa-af77-ffddca2e0001

I don't see much to complain about in this bill. But I can surmise that it is a Dead on Arrival Bill, just because of the politics involved with the Wall and the Family Based Immigration issues.

I could not understand how the Per Country Cap works in this Bill. Can someone do some analysis and explain with some examples and illustrations?

[altek001]

Ace,

Assuming the worst case (i.e w/o spill over) , i dont see EB2 India crossing 2010 for another five years atleast . If one is newer to this country , choice is clear that this long wait is not worth it. The most difficult situation is for the guys like us who have been more than a decade in this country and with PD hovering around 2011/2012- its very difficult not only because its tough to uproot the family for these folks esp (given the amount of investment they have done here , have kids born here and going to school ,bought homes ,etc.) but also because having a PD around 2011/2012 keeps one always hopeful that its not that far , kinda living a pipe dream . . Btw , my PD is Dec 2011(EB2) and i dont see getting GC in another decade . As i age i am making it almost impossible even to get a Canada PR

I feel sorry for you. You are right, that's the reality of folks stuck in the dream pipe who have been here since a decade.

I have not seen any positive developments except the mishap caused by the july 2007 bulletin.

We all noticed how DOS backtracked on the oct 2015 bulletin shattering dreams who could file 485. At that point, i realised DOS nor USCIS gave a damn about Immigrants in backlog.

[qesehmk]

Guys. Fight it in the courts. Advocacy is not going to work. People have wasted way too much time doing advocacy and it has yielded nothing.

Indians must challenge the country quota in US courts. Either they will win or have the US courts affirm this systemic discrimination. I almost guarantee you that the US courts will abolish country quota.

p.s. - The basis for a legal fight is this. Current law uses country of birth to allocate quota. In 99% cases country of birth is akin to nationality. Thus the current USCIS country quota is discriminatory. US does have laws that are against discrimination based on country of origin, ethnicity and how you look etc. Use that to your advantage. Enough said ...


Ace,

Assuming the worst case (i.e w/o spill over) , i dont see EB2 India crossing 2010 for another five years atleast . If one is newer to this country , choice is clear that this long wait is not worth it. The most difficult situation is for the guys like us who have been more than a decade in this country and with PD hovering around 2011/2012- its very difficult not only because its tough to uproot the family for these folks esp (given the amount of investment they have done here , have kids born here and going to school ,bought homes ,etc.) but also because having a PD around 2011/2012 keeps one always hopeful that its not that far , kinda living a pipe dream . . Btw , my PD is Dec 2011(EB2) and i dont see getting GC in another decade . As i age i am making it almost impossible even to get a Canada PR


I feel sorry for you. You are right, that's the reality of folks stuck in the dream pipe who have been here since a decade.

I have not seen any positive developments except the mishap caused by the july 2007 bulletin.

We all noticed how DOS backtracked on the oct 2015 bulletin shattering dreams who could file 485. At that point, i realised DOS nor USCIS gave a damn about Immigrants in backlog.

[altek001]

Guys. Fight it in the courts. Advocacy is not going to work. People have wasted way too much time doing advocacy and it has yielded nothing.

Indians must challenge the country quota in US courts. Either they will win or have the US courts affirm this systemic discrimination. I almost guarantee you that the US courts will abolish country quota.

p.s. - The basis for a legal fight is this. Current law uses country of birth to allocate quota. In 99% cases country of birth is akin to nationality. Thus the current USCIS country quota is discriminatory. US does have laws that are against discrimination based on country of origin, ethnicity and how you look etc. Use that to your advantage. Enough said ...

I concur. When DACA illegals have gotten so far. Why can't WE?

Q, the firm who challenged EB5 country cap limit discrimation of counting dependants won the law suit, but its not
in the news. That would be the firm firm to go for, If EB country cap is to be removed.

[gs1968]

I concur. When DACA illegals have gotten so far. Why can't WE?

Q, the firm who challenged EB5 country cap limit discrimation of counting dependants won the law suit, but its not
in the news. That would be the firm firm to go for, If EB country cap is to be removed.
They have only gotten so far as getting a provisional certification to agree to hearing the case on behalf of the entire group of Chinese EB-5 investors instead of each individual investor bring their own lawsuit. The actual caseis yet to be heard or judged.

[iatiam]

Guys. Fight it in the courts. Advocacy is not going to work. People have wasted way too much time doing advocacy and it has yielded nothing.

Indians must challenge the country quota in US courts. Either they will win or have the US courts affirm this systemic discrimination. I almost guarantee you that the US courts will abolish country quota.

p.s. - The basis for a legal fight is this. Current law uses country of birth to allocate quota. In 99% cases country of birth is akin to nationality. Thus the current USCIS country quota is discriminatory. US does have laws that are against discrimination based on country of origin, ethnicity and how you look etc. Use that to your advantage. Enough said ...

I have to disagree with you on this. To start with, immigration is a zero-sum game. If the system works fine, no visas are wasted. Also, no one is going to file a law suit. I have seen people giving a lot of advises - show ads on TV, walk out of work etc etc. But in reality, people just get on with life. The only thing Indians have done so far is to tweet and call congressmen and senators and an occasional meeting in the Hill. And with a divided congress and Yoder losing election, the very small chance HR392 had is also gone.

If your PD is beyond 2010, you should consider other options. I don't think many people will survive six more years of Trump administration (assuming he gets re-elected)

[qesehmk]

I do agree that immigration (quota) is a zero sum game. Also agree that people get on with their life (just like a frog in a boiling water). Also agree that not everybody can survive six more years of trump.

So not sure where the disagreement is iatiam!!

I am suggesting that litigation is the ONLY way EB-I can possibly get out of this misery. Or else status quo is always the option :)

I have to disagree with you on this. To start with, immigration is a zero-sum game. If the system works fine, no visas are wasted. Also, no one is going to file a law suit. I have seen people giving a lot of advises - show ads on TV, walk out of work etc etc. But in reality, people just get on with life. The only thing Indians have done so far is to tweet and call congressmen and senators and an occasional meeting in the Hill. And with a divided congress and Yoder losing election, the very small chance HR392 had is also gone.

If your PD is beyond 2010, you should consider other options. I don't think many people will survive six more years of Trump administration (assuming he gets re-elected)

[AceMan]

I do agree that immigration (quota) is a zero sum game. Also agree that people get on with their life (just like a frog in a boiling water). Also agree that not everybody can survive six more years of trump.

So not sure where the disagreement is iatiam!!

I am suggesting that litigation is the ONLY way EB-I can possibly get out of this misery. Or else status quo is always the option :)


Sorry Q, I cannot agree with you on this. The law is very clear on this regarding country quota. The option to correct the anomaly was HR 3012 through to HR392. We know how the lawsuit against October 2015 visa bulletin was thrown out. The actions to improve the visa allocation and prevent EB visa wastage was the reason FAD/FD concept was introduced then.

After 3 years, USCIS is finally starting to respect Filing date on a regular basis and you are suggesting a litigation attempt which has failed miserably in the past.

[iatiam]

I do agree that immigration (quota) is a zero sum game. Also agree that people get on with their life (just like a frog in a boiling water). Also agree that not everybody can survive six more years of trump.

So not sure where the disagreement is iatiam!!

I am suggesting that litigation is the ONLY way EB-I can possibly get out of this misery. Or else status quo is always the option :)
Looks like we agree on most things which is a rarity these days :)

My point is, if laws are followed properly, backlogs would me manageable and suing the government is not an option. No one will do it to begin with and even if we do, it wont help

[Raj0687]

After hearing the courts verdict on Oct/2015 visa builtin revocation case, I lost faith in the US justice system, I don't think it works for non-citizens. It works fair only for citizens, it's defiantly not for immigrants.


Forget about courts and those who already greened, I bet lot of the people who are close to getting GC or have an EAD, doesn't want to support this idea of challenging country quota in court. Live example one wise person right in this forum, (S)he heard our lament every day, called Oct/2015 case plaintiff as insane.

[qesehmk]

if laws are followed properly, backlogs would me manageable and suing the government is not an option. No one will do it to begin with and even if we do, it wont help

This I can't agree with. Today the demand is way more than the quota. Thus, howsoever lawfully USCIS and DOS work, the backlogs will only grow and never clear or be manageable.

You can only say you won't sue, but don't bet on others not doing it. I hope somebody someday does. They will lose here and there. But I am confident persistence will pay. US is the greatest country for a reason and that reason is Justice for all.

[altek001]

Sorry Q, I cannot agree with you on this. The law is very clear on this regarding country quota. The option to correct the anomaly was HR 3012 through to HR392. We know how the lawsuit against October 2015 visa bulletin was thrown out. The actions to improve the visa allocation and prevent EB visa wastage was the reason FAD/FD concept was introduced then.

After 3 years, USCIS is finally starting to respect Filing date on a regular basis and you are suggesting a litigation attempt which has failed miserably in the past.

USCIS is not doing a favor by accepting filing dates. They are doing it as the demand in EB3 is very low.

The current process of allocating EB visas is not by merit. I have experienced Indians in EB2/3 marry Indian women from Nepal and Middle East just for the purpose of skipping in Line. Why there is a loop hole of cross chargeability in EB if merit is supposed to be a level playing field for all? It does not make sense for you to wait a decade longer when your colleague is qualified at the same level or below your expertise.

DACA folks obtained green cards even though just because they were brought without their knowledge and Courts have always been in their favor. WHY?? Because there is a strong lobby of lawyers who fought the case even if Obama bypassed Congress in granting DACA.

In the same manner, We indians need to hire best lawyers to challenge EB discrimination (just as Q said) for the courts to acknowledge the insanity and Archaic laws of EB visa allocation. Enough Said...!!

[altek001]

The law firm challenging EB-5 discrimination (counting of dependents in EB5 limit) is Kurzban, Kurzban, Weinger, Tetzeli and Pratt, P.A.

https://www.kktplaw.com/

It's now or never to file a law suit as with current movement, EB2 Indian folks with PD 2009 and 2010 will wait atleast 5 years to get Green cards. My understanding is based on number of PERM filings in FY09/10.

[altek001]

The law firm challenging EB-5 discrimination (counting of dependents in EB5 limit) is Kurzban, Kurzban, Weinger, Tetzeli and Pratt, P.A.

https://www.kktplaw.com/

It's now or never to file a law suit as with current movement, EB2 Indian folks with PD 2009 and 2010 will wait atleast 5 years to get Green cards. My understanding is based on number of PERM filings in FY09/10.

https://www.law360.com/articles/1094749/chinese-investors-win-class-cert-in-eb-5-visa-cap-fight

[qesehmk]

Sorry Q, I cannot agree with you on this. The law is very clear on this regarding country quota. The option to correct the anomaly was HR 3012 through to HR392. We know how the lawsuit against October 2015 visa bulletin was thrown out. The actions to improve the visa allocation and prevent EB visa wastage was the reason FAD/FD concept was introduced then.

After 3 years, USCIS is finally starting to respect Filing date on a regular basis and you are suggesting a litigation attempt which has failed miserably in the past.

Respectfully Aceman to my knowledge nobody has ever challenged country quota as discriminatory and filed a lawsuit based on that. Tell me if I am wrong.

[swordfish380]

This I can't agree with. Today the demand is way more than the quota. Thus, howsoever lawfully USCIS and DOS work, the backlogs will only grow and never clear or be manageable.

You can only say you won't sue, but don't bet on others not doing it. I hope somebody someday does. They will lose here and there. But I am confident persistence will pay. US is the greatest country for a reason and that reason is Justice for all.



" Justice for all" was until the day Trump got elected. Now US is laughing stock of the world.
This country has welcomed immigrants from 1700s .it has to stop at some point? The population has increased by 30 % in last 30 years.. A sensible nation has to do something about it?
Im also waiting for GC for a long time.
I see FB as big culprit, it also needs a merit process . majority of FB provides work force to retail industry.

[Raj0687]

In one of the interview Kurzban said, they wanted to just fight for the EB5 for now and if they win the EB5 law suite, the rest of the EB categories follow EB5, not sure what that means, the dept automatically applies the same rule to other categories or they amend the law suite to have other categories or file a separate law suite.

[AceMan]

Respectfully Aceman to my knowledge nobody has ever challenged country quota as discriminatory and filed a lawsuit based on that. Tell me if I am wrong.

As you said in your previous post, this country provides legal options to question what people feel is discriminatory. There is a lawsuit against H4EAD in 2015 filed by people who were replaced by H1's in 2012. As frivolous as it sounds, the lawsuit is dragging on in the courts. It all sounds very nice, but the outcome is not what the people are going to like.


The lawsuit of 2015 on the date change for filing was thrown out of the court, even though it was projected to win. The law of the land clearly says 7% quota. Counting family members in the same visa numbers is another one. That as you know is challenged by Eb5 filers. Let us see how it pans out.

I also know that while I am not going to be a part of lawsuit, another person in the Eb queue might feel differently and want to pursue it. But it helps to understand the odds and the magnitude of what you are asking, and the push back it can get quoting national security and what not. Courts will make decisions based on the laws and direct the agencies to see what is possible. If the agencies say it fits the immigration security needs of the nation, there is no way courts are going to overrule that

[qesehmk]

Neither of those lawsuits speak discrimination. Do they?

As you said in your previous post, this country provides legal options to question what people feel is discriminatory. There is a lawsuit against H4EAD in 2015 filed by people who were replaced by H1's in 2012. As frivolous as it sounds, the lawsuit is dragging on in the courts. It all sounds very nice, but the outcome is not what the people are going to like.


The lawsuit of 2015 on the date change for filing was thrown out of the court, even though it was projected to win. The law of the land clearly says 7% quota. Counting family members in the same visa numbers is another one. That as you know is challenged by Eb5 filers. Let us see how it pans out.

I also know that while I am not going to be a part of lawsuit, another person in the Eb queue might feel differently and want to pursue it. But it helps to understand the odds and the magnitude of what you are asking, and the push back it can get quoting national security and what not. Courts will make decisions based on the laws and direct the agencies to see what is possible. If the agencies say it fits the immigration security needs of the nation, there is no way courts are going to overrule that

[delguy]

The justice in US is not black and white. It depends on multiple factors - which court, which judge, which lawyer, media coverage etc. With all these cases going on against immigration related EOs, the furst thing you read us "Obama appointed Judge so and so..." or "Trump appointed judge so and so..". Even in cases brought by Muller, you will figure out who is presiding iver the case, who appointed the said judge, what hi/her leanings are etc etc.

I am sure that if in 2015, we had a better media coverage and a better team of lawyers, we would have won the case. Even in the case of CNN's Jim Acosta, the news mentioned who the law firm is and how they are very good in APA related lawsuits.

[AceMan]

Neither of those lawsuits speak discrimination. Do they?

Let’s say, If the counter argument this is the check to prevent monopoly then?

[qesehmk]

Let’s say, If the counter argument this is the check to prevent monopoly then?
Monopoly as in majority of those who came first in the line?

But we digress ... don't we? Did those two lawsuits alleged discrimination?

[AceMan]

Monopoly as in majority of those who came first in the line?

But we digress ... don't we? Did those two lawsuits alleged discrimination?

I don't think those suits had explicit discrimination, only implied one.

However the moot point is, the dates have been retrogressed since 2005. Law firms should have been jumping pro-bono for this, if there is a sniff of opportunity. Why would lot of legal immigrants go for legislative route via HR3012=>HR392? Did something change after 2017/18 so that we can try the legal route.

On a similar tone a federal Judge tossed out case against doctor who performed FGM on minor girls after 12 years.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/federal-judge-rules-u-ban-093409490.html

Any body could have realized those girls were discriminated against. But the Judge ruled in favor of the doctor after 12 years!!!

H4EAD lawsuit, dragging on the court without any respite for more than 3 years. Discrimination against US citizens is their argument along with questioning DHS ability to authorize employment circumventing the congress!!!

[rocketfast]

1. 15% of the green cards given are employment based. EB2 and EB3 queue is mostly fed by H1B visa holders. Majority of H1B visa holders are Indians.

2. The argument that I generally hear are Majority of H1B visa holders from India are not really "merit" but rather simply "cheap".

3. So removing country cap is not merit-based but rather will lead to "monopoly" of cheap workers.

If argument 2 and 3 is indeed true, it can easily be fixed by simply not doing a lottery of H1B but rather give it out based on same kind of merit (For e.g 300% of median income of the area first, 200% of median income of the area next etc). At least that will remove the argument that non-merit based people will benefit with removal of country quotas.

4. Once the lottery is removed and we also remove country-caps, we effectively have a capitalistic merit based immigration.

[AceMan]

1. 15% of the green cards given are employment based. EB2 and EB3 queue is mostly fed by H1B visa holders. Majority of H1B visa holders are Indians.

2. The argument that I generally hear are Majority of H1B visa holders from India are not really "merit" but rather simply "cheap".

3. So removing country cap is not merit-based but rather will lead to "monopoly" of cheap workers.

If argument 2 and 3 is indeed true, it can easily be fixed by simply not doing a lottery of H1B but rather give it out based on same kind of merit (For e.g 300% of median income of the area first, 200% of median income of the area next etc). At least that will remove the argument that non-merit based people will benefit with removal of country quotas.

4. Once the lottery is removed and we also remove country-caps, we effectively have a capitalistic merit based immigration.


USCIS already had the fix back in 2010,11 and most of 12 when they insisted on Employee-Employer relation while applying for H1. Do you know that in 2011 H1's quota was filled in the 2nd quarter of FY 2011? They were a self funded organization which was used to getting their biggest funds on first week of April. So they quietly withdrew the mandate some time in 2012.

With the economy booming back again in 2013, and to satisfy the urge of the companies appetite for labor at below market wages, they came up with I-140 approval for a previous company enable people to renew H1 unlimited times for the new company without bothering for the employees GC filing. Throw in a 3 year OPT, USCIS made sure of their full revenue. As you can see, in 2018 USCIS got the original employee-employer relation back. But 3 year OPT resulted in 90K regular applicants along with 90 K Masters.

They accepted spurious petitions from 2013 onward for H1B. In 2017 they come up with a regulation all the renewals will be checked with more aggressive intent. Lot of H1's got rejected with the new mandate. The 3 year old H1's get recycled with new H1's which really pushes the wages down, while USCIS get their fees and money.

It gives me chuckles when people talk about merit based, salary based improvement without understanding the ground reality. USCIS, companies, lawyers need this clog(read revenue stream) to continue.

To put it down bluntly your point by point facts makes a good valid read and can score lot of brownie points in a college debate. So why ask for 300% of the mean income? Ask for 1000% of the mean income, similar to the CATO statement which said Indians will have 150 years wait for their GC.

But the hard reality is every single H1 candidate is a freaking cash cow for lot of groups in this country. Starting with USCIS, DHS, DMV (renewals with every H1), Lawyers, Home rental leasing, Car leasing, Mortgage points for being an immigrant, Banks giving secure cards, Medical insurance, Auto insurance and on and on.

Add the B1/B2 extended family we bring our home country for every 6 months. Add the visitor insurance

People in the high echelon wants this Indian cash cows to come in line every year and deliver. I had to tell you this because, H1B is not cheap as people tend to project.

Oh and BTW the country caps are not going anywhere, nor the lottery system. The system is truly capitalist, abundant supply of quality people at a relatively lower price.

[Sydneycl]

Those were better days

[qesehmk]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

[EB2IndSep09]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

Q,
We all are hanging on that SO number for next year. Hope the current administration is not going to screw up this big time.
I am not politically inclined to either political party as without voting right I cannot influence either one (may be my perspective).
Grievance is with both parties as each party works for their own benefit (nothing wrong we all as humans do the same) but there should be some basic ethics which are missing in them. You brought up a very good example of USPS fiasco and see how Nancy called for a House meeting even after they adjourned for the season and sorted that out because it benefits their party. Why she did not react with the same urgency when USCIS (may not be completely funded by government) declared crisis? dual stand like that makes me frustated.

You are right a cleaner insight by publishing numbers into the fair usage of visa numbers would have been helped for people not to speculate on the wastage.

[alpha0]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

Well, most likely it is more that a little wastege. Eb2 India moved from May 12 to July 8 in the year when consulates are closed and ROW is current. And those few thousands wastage (will need to wait till they announce final numbers) would have helped move Eb2 India a lot. Wastage is ok for ROW because it will dealy their GC just by few months, but for Eb2+3 India, this was once in a decade sort of windfall opportunity and agency screwed it up royally.

My logic for 25 k wastage is simple - they did not process 16k spillover (from previous year FB) plus about 10k or so which would have processed by consulates in regular year in 7-8 months. Why work more when you get same salary@?

I am prettry sure someone must be making plans right now on how to screw up 100k spillover next year.

[qesehmk]

@EB2Ind - clearly Nancy thought USPS is a big deal compared to USCIS. And mind you it is. But your point is valid. Every party has their favorite topics shaped by their interests and their constituencies interests .... and that's how democracies work!

@alpha -we will know about wastage. My "gut" feel is that a good chunk of what you think is "wastage" is going to be diverted towards some "unforeseen" ROW or Phillippines EB demand. Right now I must admit - it is just a conjecture.

[AceMan]

Guys - by and large American government apparatus is run in an apolitical manner. What it means is that once a policy decision is made at political level, the apparatus implements it in a professional manner. So all the fighting usually used to be at the policy making level.

The problem with current administration is that there virtually is no public policy making process. Everything happens in the president's mind and his inputs are Fox and extreme right wing nuts and his corrupt circle. Whats more worrisome is that then they are pushing such nut job agenda directly onto the administration by subverting the political discourse. The USPS fiasco is just one example. Pretty much everything this administration has done has almost ZERO public policy track. Everything is fast tracked via president's inner circle fox and twitter.

Regardless of this - I am 99% sure there is little wastage this year if any. Be happy for the 100K extra visas next year.

Yes, I have to agree with you on this. A little to the left, a little to the right was always the norm in America. The big change was Obama who got elected with the support from the left and youngsters tried to please the right with his over the top actions as far as ICE is concerned in pushing out the illegals, and separating the kids from parents with very little compassion. He was keen on his preserving his legacy once he got the second term, he did nothing for Police brutality or black lives matter when he was in power. His legacy is delivering us the Trump train.

Even now I see the national channels kind of taken for granted the Biden win. The same kind of stuff Rachel Maddow was famous for in 2016. Trump does not have any policy, he is just running a reality show, which America fell for in 2016, will they fall for it again on November 2020?

[qesehmk]

Yes, I have to agree with you on this. A little to the left, a little to the right was always the norm in America. The big change was Obama who got elected with the support from the left and youngsters tried to please the right with his over the top actions as far as ICE is concerned in pushing out the illegals, and separating the kids from parents with very little compassion. He was keen on his preserving his legacy once he got the second term, he did nothing for Police brutality or black lives matter when he was in power. His legacy is delivering us the Trump train.

Even now I see the national channels kind of taken for granted the Biden win. The same kind of stuff Rachel Maddow was famous for in 2016. Trump does not have any policy, he is just running a reality show, which America fell for in 2016, will they fall for it again on November 2020?

Can't agree with Obama observations. Republicans have moved more and more on the crazy side since Vietnam. Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Now Trump. Obama only brought out the visceral hatred and racism on the far right. If Trump wins second term, then IMHO deep state will be dead forever and America's days as the undisputed world superpower will end much sooner.

[AceMan]

Can't agree with Obama observations. Republicans have moved more and more on the crazy side since Vietnam. Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Now Trump. Obama only brought out the visceral hatred and racism on the far right. If Trump wins second term, then IMHO deep state will be dead forever and America's days as the undisputed world superpower will end much sooner.

In my observation, Trump stole the election from Ted Cruz in 2016. He was the leading candidate against the establishment, while the main stream media promoted Trump over the top drowning the sane republican voices at that time. These newspapers were celebrating the Trump abuses of Ted Cruz’s/Bush’s/McCain’s/ family and services to the country. These channels were feeding and stroking his bad behavior. When Megyn Kelly asked Trump a very serious solid question on the republican candidates night, these news channels were more elaborating Trumps personal attacks on her.

It was not Trump who destroyed the American framework, but rather started with Obama when he passed his Health care without a single republican support, followed by his botched attempt of bending over the back to appease the worst elements on the red side by his crackdown on immigration, both legal and illegal. USCIs Employee-Employer relation, 3 year opt’s, the horrible implementation of filing dates and final dates.

We have people in this country for over a decade, with no representation or voting rights all held back because of an illogical country quota.

[qesehmk]

In my observation, Trump stole the election from Ted Cruz in 2016. He was the leading candidate against the establishment, while the main stream media promoted Trump over the top drowning the sane republican voices at that time. These newspapers were celebrating the Trump abuses of Ted Cruz’s/Bush’s/McCain’s/ family and services to the country. These channels were feeding and stroking his bad behavior. When Megyn Kelly asked Trump a very serious solid question on the republican candidates night, these news channels were more elaborating Trumps personal attacks on her.

It was not Trump who destroyed the American framework, but rather started with Obama when he passed his Health care without a single republican support, followed by his botched attempt of bending over the back to appease the worst elements on the red side by his crackdown on immigration, both legal and illegal. USCIs Employee-Employer relation, 3 year opt’s, the horrible implementation of filing dates and final dates.

We have people in this country for over a decade, with no representation or voting rights all held back because of an illogical country quota.

Country quota certainly seems evil and we have pointed that out before literally anybody else. No doubt they need to go and they will go away in next four years if Biden wins. If Trump wins then I am not hopeful looking at the language quota his party is speaking about.

You might be surprised to know that country quota was an improvement over population based limits repealed in 1965. Population based limits put limits on immigration from a specific country based on existing population in the US. e.g. if US had only 0.5% indian population then India was maxed out at 0.5% of the total immigration limit. So country quota while are still very discriminatory are still an improvement. Before population limits Asians (specifically chinese and japanese) were completely barred from immigration. So immigration has evolved over time and it will become more and more fair. But people have to earn it. Nobody hands out things in US. People have to fight for it.

As per your observations about Obama - again I disagree. The only thing I will add is that the mainstream media indeed cheered trump because they thought Hillary will beat him quite easily. But Comey and FBI meddled and got Trump elected by announcing a probe into Hillary 10 or 14 days before the election.

[idliman]

Country quota certainly seems evil and we have pointed that out before literally anybody else. No doubt they need to go and they will go away in next four years if Biden wins.
As per your observations about Obama - again I disagree. The only thing I will add is that the mainstream media indeed cheered trump because they thought Hillary will beat him quite easily. But Comey and FBI meddled and got Trump elected by announcing a probe into Hillary 10 or 14 days before the election.
Having observed the numerous attempts at removal of per-country caps as an outsider, there is tremendous opposition to removal of per-country cap. When the entire world is benefiting because of the suffering from one country, it would be very difficult. IMO, the only chance of per-country cap removal is in the context of a CIR & DACA.

Also I agree that the Comey letter alone probably did shift enough votes to swing the election to DT. DT won the last election by 77,744 votes in three swing states (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania). Trump won Pennsylvania by 0.7 percentage points (44,292 votes), Wisconsin by 0.7 points (22,748 votes), Michigan by 0.2 points (10,704 votes). That amounts to 0.06% of votes. I stopped watching the political panel discussions long time back. However, it is my belief that DT and R’s cannot win this election, unless they resort to widespread voter suppression tactics. If JB & KH manage to motivate enough voters to turn up, they should win.

[qesehmk]

Having observed the numerous attempts at removal of per-country caps as an outsider, there is tremendous opposition to removal of per-country cap. When the entire world is benefiting because of the suffering from one country, it would be very difficult. IMO, the only chance of per-country cap removal is in the context of a CIR & DACA.

Also I agree that the Comey letter alone probably did shift enough votes to swing the election to DT. DT won the last election by 77,744 votes in three swing states (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania). Trump won Pennsylvania by 0.7 percentage points (44,292 votes), Wisconsin by 0.7 points (22,748 votes), Michigan by 0.2 points (10,704 votes). That amounts to 0.06% of votes. I stopped watching the political panel discussions long time back. However, it is my belief that DT and R’s cannot win this election, unless they resort to widespread voter suppression tactics. If JB & KH manage to motivate enough voters to turn up, they should win.

I am hoping for biden-harris to win but 2016 was such a shocker that in 2020 I hesitate to put faith in the 10 point lead.

Per country caps will go away if we keep the heat on. The trick will be to keep it narrow and not ride it with anything else. It will pass. The biggest opponent so far was Durbin who is now on board. A few lawmakers (like Rick Scott (R) florida) will b--- and m--- but most will support and it will pass. I think Biden said he supports removal of country quota. If he wins, all the South Indian community should descend on kamala chitti and it will pass :D I can see this very clear. My only caveat is - it needs democrats in power. With Trump it is a bit dicey.

[AceMan]

Having observed the numerous attempts at removal of per-country caps as an outsider, there is tremendous opposition to removal of per-country cap. When the entire world is benefiting because of the suffering from one country, it would be very difficult. IMO, the only chance of per-country cap removal is in the context of a CIR & DACA.



The problem is how this is being visualized. It is a bloody American problem, where people are living in the country being ignored with new comers in the name of country quota rule. Oh yeah, there is freedom of choice, you are free to leave the country if you don’t like it. And it precisely where conniving reps, senators who are worse than jackals, with all talk and not action Grassley, Durbin, Schumer to name a few.

The leading names would be couple of Juniors named Obama and Sanders who torpedoed the immigration act of 2007 presented by Kennedy. I am surprised to see Q while getting vocal about the basket cases of Red, is silent about the deplorable s on the blue side

[qesehmk]

The problem is how this is being visualized. It is a bloody American problem, where people are living in the country being ignored with new comers in the name of country quota rule. Oh yeah, there is freedom of choice, you are free to leave the country if you don’t like it. And it precisely where conniving reps, senators who are worse than jackals, with all talk and not action Grassley, Durbin, Schumer to name a few.

The leading names would be couple of Juniors named Obama and Sanders who torpedoed the immigration act of 2007 presented by Kennedy. I am surprised to see Q while getting vocal about the basket cases of Red, is silent about the deplorable s on the blue side

ACE - like many of you I have been a witness of immigration saga since early 2000s. What you provide are talking points from GOP side. They are not facts and can easily be disproven (all of them). I just don't have enough time to convince every single person I come across.

Generally speaking here is the immigration picture:
1. Dems have always favored immigration (all kinds). But obviously family one is 7 times bigger (including immediate relatives). So that is their priority.
2. Reps resistance to immigration has transformed from an economic POV to racist POV. They oppose illegals and legals alike. Trump has hijacked the economic issue and turned it into a racist issue.
3. EB immigration has horribly worsened due to lack of numbers but luckily now the size of backlog is so large that the problem has hit the conscious of many many American lawmakers as well as general public
4. Dems have always wanted more and more and more immigration. It is the party of the immigrants and unfortunately GOP has become party of the southern whites, northern disgruntled working whites, and uppity immigrants/collaborators from conflict ridden countries e.g. (South Vietnames, Cuban Collaborators). The third piece is interesting and that is where Indians too figure. Most Indian NRIs that are modi supporters are pleased with Trump's anti muslim rhetoric and are mixing their right wing views in India with American politics and are hurting their own interests.

So Ace - that's the immigration picture in nutshell. Dems are the better party for immigration. GOP has become absolutely racist. NRI's should not mix Indian right wing politics with American politics. It is not in their interest.

There is ample material online from 2005 / 2007 era and Obama and democratic positions on immigration. So one can educate themselves. It is just not productive for me to dig up all that material and argue about it. I urge you to spend some time and if it changes your mind, great. If it doesn't, lets agree to disagree.

[AceMan]

ACE - like many of you I have been a witness of immigration saga since early 2000s. What you provide are talking points from GOP side. They are not facts and can easily be disproven (all of them). I just don't have enough time to convince every single person I come across.

Generally speaking here is the immigration picture:
1. Dems have always favored immigration (all kinds). But obviously family one is 7 times bigger (including immediate relatives). So that is their priority.
2. Reps resistance to immigration has transformed from an economic POV to racist POV. They oppose illegals and legals alike. Trump has hijacked the economic issue and turned it into a racist issue.
3. EB immigration has horribly worsened due to lack of numbers but luckily now the size of backlog is so large that the problem has hit the conscious of many many American lawmakers as well as general public
4. Dems have always wanted more and more and more immigration. It is the party of the immigrants and unfortunately GOP has become party of the southern whites, northern disgruntled working whites, and uppity immigrants/collaborators from conflict ridden countries e.g. (South Vietnames, Cuban Collaborators). The third piece is interesting and that is where Indians too figure. Most Indian NRIs that are modi supporters are pleased with Trump's anti muslim rhetoric and are mixing their right wing views in India with American politics and are hurting their own interests.

So Ace - that's the immigration picture in nutshell. Dems are the better party for immigration. GOP has become absolutely racist. NRI's should not mix Indian right wing politics with American politics. It is not in their interest.

There is ample material online from 2005 / 2007 era and Obama and democratic positions on immigration. So one can educate themselves. It is just not productive for me to dig up all that material and argue about it. I urge you to spend some time and if it changes your mind, great. If it doesn't, lets agree to disagree.

Our disagreements are purely on points with absolute mutual respect for each other in person. I have to clearly indicate my position is on the conservative side. The Republican Party represented my views since 2010.

Let you not fall into the trap of media outlets, who wants to brand entire spectrum of republicans as racists. It was they who created the Trump Frankenstein, who could never grow beyond the reality show host level. Back in India we had the TINA factor. Almost all the moderates who have voted Trump are still expected to vote Trump.

And lot of Indian origin people moving away from Democratic Party can be clearly attributed to the Keith Ellison, who literally abused Indian Hindu Leaders who were always aiding democrats, and his vendetta against an Indian leader over religious violence which he had very specific views. Where as Trump was always respectful of Indians in general.

[qesehmk]

Our disagreements are purely on points with absolute mutual respect for each other in person. I have to clearly indicate my position is on the conservative side. The Republican Party represented my views since 2010.

Let you not fall into the trap of media outlets, who wants to brand entire spectrum of republicans as racists. It was they who created the Trump Frankenstein, who could never grow beyond the reality show host level. Back in India we had the TINA factor. Almost all the moderates who have voted Trump are still expected to vote Trump.

And lot of Indian origin people moving away from Democratic Party can be clearly attributed to the Keith Ellison, who literally abused Indian Hindu Leaders who were always aiding democrats, and his vendetta against an Indian leader over religious violence which he had very specific views. Where as Trump was always respectful of Indians in general.

Ace - we not only tolerate but celebrate diversity of views and opinion on this forum.

Me not agreeing with much of your political views does not stop me from wishing you and everybody else God speed to your GCs!

[jimmys]

I'm skeptical of Democrats passing country quota removal for EB as a standalone bill. If they pass country quota removal for EB, then their version of the CIR becomes just illegals only and it won't even take off. They will be wary of that.

So I expect Democrats to package in the EB country quota removal in their newer version of CIR. There will be a lot of debates whether CIR should be introduced or not. And, EB country quota removal will die along with their newer version of CIR. Above scenario is if Dems win Presidency+Senate+House.

[AceMan]

Ace - we not only tolerate but celebrate diversity of views and opinion on this forum.

Me not agreeing with much of your political views does not stop me from wishing you and everybody else God speed to your GCs!

We are from a country which contributed Thali to the food world, and US is the melting pot. So yes we are unity in diversity.

[qesehmk]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/14/politics/judge-chad-wolf/index.html

This is an interesting read how Trump admin is even after asylum seekers!! Seriously?

Asylum seekers is an interesting category. US has a long history of providing asylum to people fleeing persecution. According to Trump admin these people should wait 1 year before applying for EAD. That's outright crazy.

There are two elements of resistance.
1) The usual anti immigrant view about jobs
2) The anti state department view where the asylum seekers are seen as result of America's wrong involvement abroad.

I think 1 is populist and 2 is deep. But regardless of philosophy denying them EAD is cheap shot.

[EB22010Dec]

I see buzz around s386 any new news ?

[gs1968]

I see buzz around s386 any new news ?

UC attempt at 530pm after Lee reached agreement with Scott and modified the bill. Fate unclear as no details of the amendment publicly available. Appears like it directly or indirectly bars or makes it much harder for Chinese students to enter the USA

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

UC attempt at 530pm after Lee reached agreement with Scott and modified the bill. Fate unclear as no details of the amendment publicly available. Appears like it directly or indirectly bars or makes it much harder for Chinese students to enter the USA

Yeah, they will have the UC and some new Senator will object and that will be the end of it. This is just a mirage, don't chase it.

[gs1968]

Yeah, they will have the UC and some new Senator will object and that will be the end of it. This is just a mirage, don't chase it.

We will wait and see. It still has to pass the house as is it is as there is no time for conference. Trump/Miller will be the wild card but I would sense that they signed off on this

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

We will wait and see. It still has to pass the house as is it is as there is no time for conference. Trump/Miller will be the wild card but I would sense that they signed off on this

Even if it passes both chambers which is a very low probability, Trump is not going to sign anything other than a negotiated covid bill.

[gs1968]

Passed by Unanimous consent

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Well, that was quick. The bill just passed the Senate.

[abcx13]

Latest draft posted by IV:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lgmvcyofxiv3xr/redline12012020.pdf?dl=0

So now it just needs to be reconciled by the Senate and the House and signed by Trump?

[gs1968]

The biggest change is the Chinese exclusion provision which could be a problem in the House. It prohibits admission or adjustment of status of Chinese nationals that are part of the CCP or the military. China has compulsory military service for its youth and theoretically it can exclude many people both abroad and here in the USA but they do allow discretion of the Secretary of State and Director of National Intelligence. The House passed a very basic version of the Bill last summer and there has been many ornaments added to the tree.Hopefully they can squeeze time in between the negotiations for the Omnibus Bill and COVID to get this done. If there is 2/3 support it can be passed by suspension of rules and sent to the President.

[gs1968]

Latest draft posted by IV:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6lgmvcyofxiv3xr/redline12012020.pdf?dl=0

So now it just needs to be reconciled by the Senate and the House and signed by Trump?
Correct. Time is too short for conference or committee review by the House so it comes down to a take it or leave it proposition for the House. Unfortunately the implementation for cap removal is now pushed to October 1 2022 (almost 2 years from now). That language was preserved.

[gs1968]

Can Spec or other experts explain what Section 8 means? It appears that no more than 70% of GCs in a category can be converted from H-1b or H4 status i.e 28000 per category. Is this correct? Also was this section there in the previous version?

[qesehmk]

Even if it passes both chambers which is a very low probability, Trump is not going to sign anything other than a negotiated covid bill.
I haven't read the bill yet. So more later ...

But Trump will sign it if it reaches him.

I think GOP's calculation is that the house will take a pass. Dems are in a bind. If they pass Trump gets the credit for something Biden is eager to. But now if House passes on this one, that gives great excuse for future GOP senate to not do it during biden admin.

Let's hope Biden asks Pelosi to do the right thing and stand with it. Perhaps let's run a campaign to send letters to Biden and Pelosi to ask them to pass it.

[idliman]

Correct. Time is too short for conference or committee review by the House so it comes down to a take it or leave it proposition for the House. Unfortunately the implementation for cap removal is now pushed to October 1 2022 (almost 2 years from now). That language was preserved.
I did not believe it when I first saw this a few minutes ago. Don't know what games are being played. I think, the R's calculated that the best chance of blocking the bills from Congressional Hispanic Caucus is to get this thing done. R.Scott would not have removed it unless a) he had the blessing of DT admin or b) R's are sure that there is no time to get this bill through. This lame duck is tricky. However, it gives everyone an excuse to vote for this bill.

[qesehmk]

1766 Please see the pdf attached.

[Zenzone]

Even if it passes both chambers which is a very low probability, Trump is not going to sign anything other than a negotiated covid bill.

I disagree with you. This won’t be cleared in the Senate without WH’s blessings. I think WH blessed this bill becoz there are H1B reforms embedded in it. This passes today as soon as the courts issued injunction on the DOL wage rule and DHS specialty occupation rule yesterday. Its not a coincidence! I now give this bill a 90% chance of being reconciled and voted by the house and sent to DT for signing (which I expect that he will). This has better probability of becoming law now more than ever in the past decade!

[gs1968]

It is amazing how many ways a total of 120K visas can be divided. Under the current Bill my estimate is that in the EB3 category only about 35% will be available to Indian and Chinese on H-1B visas in the first year. There is a maximum of 70% that can go to H-1B/H4 holders so that takes away 30%. There is also a 25% non Top 2 country quota which is another 25% followed by 4400 (about 10-11%) for consular processing abroad for countries with low representation. Thus 65 % is reserved in some way or the other. I may be reading the Bill wrong so please feel free to correct

[gs1968]

I disagree with you. This won’t be cleared in the Senate without WH’s blessings. I think WH blessed this bill becoz there are H1B reforms embedded in it. This passes today as soon as the courts issued injunction on the DOL wage rule and DHS specialty occupation rule yesterday. Its not a coincidence! I now give this bill a 90% chance of being reconciled and voted by the house and sent to DT for signing (which I expect that he will). This has better probability of becoming law now more than ever in the past decade!

There is every reason to be optimistic but this almost a brand new Bill that the House is considering. What passed last summer in the House bears no resemblance to the current version even though the House Bill number was retained. To overcome multiple blocks there have been numerous changes and carve outs inserted into the Bill which the House has to at least consider. If the House makes changes it has to come back to the Senate again. Fortunately if suspension of rules is not considered in the House (requiring 2/3 majority) there is always a chance of procuring a simple majority. We have only 2 weeks left in this session

[Zenzone]

Yes. Biden is all for country cap removal and h1b reform at the same time. This bill has both and Kamala was one of the earliest sponsors in the Senate too!

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

I disagree with you. This won’t be cleared in the Senate without WH’s blessings. I think WH blessed this bill becoz there are H1B reforms embedded in it. This passes today as soon as the courts issued injunction on the DOL wage rule and DHS specialty occupation rule yesterday. Its not a coincidence! I now give this bill a 90% chance of being reconciled and voted by the house and sent to DT for signing (which I expect that he will). This has better probability of becoming law now more than ever in the past decade!

I understand your view, just that we have been shown this movie time and again. I will believe it when the POTUS signs it into law. There is going to be heavy lobbying by the Chinese, ROW, Immigration lawyers, Outsourcers against it's passage. This has to get done by 12/18 which is just a couple of weeks away, so we will know very soon.

[EB22010Dec]

With all the congratulations on Twitter, I feel like we have reached the high point in this bill's life.
I hope I am wrong. We shall see.

[AceMan]

Looks like a decent compromise bill. Apply for 485 within 2 years of 140 and protection of the children aging out based on the filing date is very good. Let us see if it passes the house

[vedu]

Finally the constant advocacy efforts by SOME bore fruit! Let's hope for the final passage of this sensible bill. It doesn't affect many people like me. It's too late for us now. But the country caps in the employment based category must go, that's the only fair thing to do!

[Zenzone]

I understand your view, just that we have been shown this movie time and again. I will believe it when the POTUS signs it into law. There is going to be heavy lobbying by the Chinese, ROW, Immigration lawyers, Outsourcers against it's passage. This has to get done by 12/18 which is just a couple of weeks away, so we will know very soon.

Nothing wrong in being cautious as we have some bitter history here. However, I would say this is the closest I have seen this come through. Also, this is 2020, anything is possible! The very fact many of us filed for I-485 just last month is an example of what's possible in 2020 both positive and negative!

[gs1968]

Looks like a decent compromise bill. Apply for 485 within 2 years of 140 and protection of the children aging out based on the filing date is very good. Let us see if it passes the house

Correctly said. I wish the date of implementation could be moved forward somewhat.The AOS provisions do not go into effect for 1 year after enactment and the actual country cap removal do not start till October 1,2022. This is the best possible Bill within the constraints of limitation of annual numbers. We have to wait to see how the chips fall in the long run for various countries. With so many carve outs rule making and implementation will be challenging and I fully a few technical correction Bills by both chambers next year as problems arise

[gs1968]

I still don't understand 70% provision. Is it 70% of 140K GCs annually or 120K (EB1/2/3)? Also if not H-1B what are other major avenues of employment immigration to consume those 30% visas? In any case if that 30% is unused it will go back to the backlog reduction pool anyway. I read that Lofgren is lobbying hard to remove that provision especially the 50% after 9 years.

[mitul75]

This is what ET has to say about the amended senate bill that might lead to stalemate in House.

"The other change says that no Chinese national affiliated with the Chinese military or the Chinese Communist Party can enter the United States or be eligible to adjust visa status under any category. This would impact almost all Chinese nationals as most Chinese students are part of a youth organization affiliated to the CCP in some manner."

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/work/us-senate-passes-bill-eliminating-per-country-cap-for-employment-based-immigrant-visas/articleshow/79542201.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

[Zenzone]

This is what ET has to say about the amended senate bill that might lead to stalemate in House.

"The other change says that no Chinese national affiliated with the Chinese military or the Chinese Communist Party can enter the United States or be eligible to adjust visa status under any category. This would impact almost all Chinese nationals as most Chinese students are part of a youth organization affiliated to the CCP in some manner."

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/nri/work/us-senate-passes-bill-eliminating-per-country-cap-for-employment-based-immigrant-visas/articleshow/79542201.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

No offense. ET has not been a trusted source for immigration news in my experience! They simply post opinions from some immigration lawyers. Pretty useless!

[newyorker123]

Did the rule about increased scope of premium processing (for H4, EAD etc. ) become a law ? I do not see any definite news anywhere but saw it mentioned somewhere

[mitul75]

No offense. ET has not been a trusted source for immigration news in my experience! They simply post opinions from some immigration lawyers. Pretty useless!

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. The clause about Chinese nationals is a fact, and that opinion quoted in ET is that of an immigration attorney.

[Zenzone]

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. The clause about Chinese nationals is a fact, and that opinion quoted in ET is that of an immigration attorney.

People who have been following this for a while know about how immigration attorneys have their views and agenda. I would take these with a grain of salt. The clause about Chinese nationals is actually not a big deal as one attorney has claimed here by the way! In most immigration forms they already ask about your allegiance to communist movements and militaries to determine eligibility. Even the existing I-485 AOS form has it. I will verify facts before taking sides. This bill has a decent chance than ever before. Here is more context from a different thread -

There are widespread and inaccurate reports that S386 is passed. That's not true.

S386 was a competing senate bill to HR1044. It is where it is. In the judiciary committee.

What was passed in the senate yesterday is an amended HR1044.

It means that the house only needs to approve the amendment. If it were S386 being passed then there would have been a long and painful process of reconciling house bill and senate bill. With amendment there is some (not a whole lot) hope that the house may actually take this up and pass.

It all depends on how complicated and contentious the amendment is or is not.

[Zenzone]

Did the rule about increased scope of premium processing (for H4, EAD etc. ) become a law ? I do not see any definite news anywhere but saw it mentioned somewhere

Nope. I haven't seen that yet.

[mitul75]

People who have been following this for a while know about how immigration attorneys have their views and agenda. I would take these with a grain of salt. The clause about Chinese nationals is actually not a big deal as one attorney has claimed here by the way! In most immigration forms they already ask about your allegiance to communist movements and militaries to determine eligibility. Even the existing I-485 AOS form has it. I will verify facts before taking sides. This bill has a decent chance than ever before. Here is more context from a different thread -

There are widespread and inaccurate reports that S386 is passed. That's not true.

S386 was a competing senate bill to HR1044. It is where it is. In the judiciary committee.

What was passed in the senate yesterday is an amended HR1044.

It means that the house only needs to approve the amendment. If it were S386 being passed then there would have been a long and painful process of reconciling house bill and senate bill. With amendment there is some (not a whole lot) hope that the house may actually take this up and pass.

It all depends on how complicated and contentious the amendment is or is not.

ET didn't say that S386 passed yesterday, but the amended HR1044. The problem, again, as per immigration attorneys, is that the amendment states the following. This may or may not be an issue depending on how the House treats it as contentious or not. I'm not taking sides here but just sharing the story.

=========================
SEC. 9. PROHIBITION ON ADMISSION OR
ADJUSTMENT OF STATUS OF ALIENS AFFILIATED
WITH THE MILITARY FORCES OF THE PEOPLE’S
REPUBLIC OF CHINA OR THE CHINESE COMMUNIST
PARTY.
The Secretary of Homeland Security shall not admit to the United States, or adjust status
of, any alien affiliated with the military forces of the People’s Republic of China or the
Chinese Communist Party, as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security, in
consultation with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Attorney General,
and the Director of National Intelligence.
==========================

[vsivarama]

=========================
SEC. 9. PROHIBITION ON ADMISSION OR
ADJUSTMENT OF STATUS OF ALIENS AFFILIATED
WITH THE MILITARY FORCES OF THE PEOPLE’S
REPUBLIC OF CHINA OR THE CHINESE COMMUNIST
PARTY.
The Secretary of Homeland Security shall not admit to the United States, or adjust status
of, any alien affiliated with the military forces of the People’s Republic of China or the
Chinese Communist Party, as determined by the Secretary of Homeland Security, in
consultation with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of Defense, the Attorney General,
and the Director of National Intelligence.
==========================

The statement above is in present tense. So I guess it's up for interpretation if they are currently affiliated with the military forces (which is a smaller set of people) or if they ever have been a part of it as required by mandatory service. The future of the bill hinges on which side the argument lands on.

[AceMan]

People who have been following this for a while know about how immigration attorneys have their views and agenda. I would take these with a grain of salt. The clause about Chinese nationals is actually not a big deal as one attorney has claimed here by the way! In most immigration forms they already ask about your allegiance to communist movements and militaries to determine eligibility. Even the existing I-485 AOS form has it. I will verify facts before taking sides. This bill has a decent chance than ever before. Here is more context from a different thread -

There are widespread and inaccurate reports that S386 is passed. That's not true.

S386 was a competing senate bill to HR1044. It is where it is. In the judiciary committee.

What was passed in the senate yesterday is an amended HR1044.

It means that the house only needs to approve the amendment. If it were S386 being passed then there would have been a long and painful process of reconciling house bill and senate bill. With amendment there is some (not a whole lot) hope that the house may actually take this up and pass.

It all depends on how complicated and contentious the amendment is or is not.

I saw this today morning here and the chances of house approving is high before the year end and ready for Trump’s signature.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

I saw this today morning here and the chances of house approving is high before the year end and ready for Trump’s signature.

Is there realistically enough time for this to go the House, back to the Senate and then get signed into law?

[gs1968]

Is there realistically enough time for this to go the House, back to the Senate and then get signed into law?

My smart money would be on tacking this on to the Omnibus appropriations Bill this month.It is a must pass Bill that will have to be agreed to in both Chambers. The current CR expires on December 11 and ideally the next appropriations Bill has to be passed before it expires.As it stands there is no agreement yet. I anticipate that if the situation stays the same then a short term CR would be passed for a 10-14 day period to give the negotiators more time. Lofgren has championed this since 2007 and knows that she may never get another chance although what has come back to her is vastly different from her vision of the solution. The Bill itself is so messily drafted that after this passes there are bound to be technical correction Bills needing to be passed to clear confusion during rule making and implementation

[qesehmk]

There is a chance it will get approved. But the way this passed senate was ridiculous. After holding this over nothing for months and months .. they passed it in under 5 minutes 2 weeks before house session ends. So there is a bit of dis ingenuity there.

However one of the greatest out comes of this is
---------
--------
--------
DRUMROLL
----------
----------
Both houses of congress now officially recognize country caps as unfair. That's a big deal. When S386 failed I did say that not all is lost and that it is a big plus that a lot of people on the hill understand this issue and that country caps' end is coming near.

So regardless of what house does next, rest assured country caps will be gone either now or in next 4 years.

I doubt how big of a role "SOME" people had in it. For the simple reason that they can't figure out what exactly was passed in the senate. Regardless, congratulations to those that contributed to advocacy. As somebody said above, this may not mean much for people with dates in 2010/12 but it will mean a lot for people with dates in 2015 and beyond.

[gs1968]

Another interesting point is that the minimum 4400 visas for nurse/physical therapists only applies to the principal beneficiary.The derivative applicants will be allotted visas from the general pool
This will really squeeze EB-3 availability because I think the 70% cap on H-1B/H4 is to allow full usage of the 10000 unskilled workers quota who do not qualify for H-1B

[gs1968]

There is a chance it will get approved. But the way this passed senate was ridiculous. After holding this over nothing for months and months .. they passed it in under 5 minutes 2 weeks before house session ends. So there is a bit of dis ingenuity there.

However one of the greatest out comes of this is
---------
--------
--------
DRUMROLL
----------
----------
Both houses of congress now officially recognize country caps as unfair. That's a big deal. When S386 failed I did say that not all is lost and that it is a big plus that a lot of people on the hill understand this issue and that country caps' end is coming near.

So regardless of what house does next, rest assured country caps will be gone either now or in next 4 years.

I doubt how big of a role "SOME" people had in it. For the simple reason that they can't figure out what exactly was passed in the senate. Regardless, congratulations to those that contributed to advocacy. As somebody said above, this may not mean much for people with dates in 2010/12 but it will mean a lot for people with dates in 2015 and beyond.

You are on point as usual. They certainly spent a lot of time (4 months) to come up with really one significant change. But the verbal gymnastics in the Bill is insane and it will take a while to unpack everything to see where the chips will fall. But the fact remains that for somebody from any country that gets in line today there will be a 15 year wait to a GC.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

My smart money would be on tacking this on to the Omnibus appropriations Bill this month.It is a must pass Bill that will have to be agreed to in both Chambers. The current CR expires on December 11 and ideally the next appropriations Bill has to be passed before it expires.As it stands there is no agreement yet. I anticipate that if the situation stays the same then a short term CR would be passed for a 10-14 day period to give the negotiators more time. Lofgren has championed this since 2007 and knows that she may never get another chance although what has come back to her is vastly different from her vision of the solution. The Bill itself is so messily drafted that after this passes there are bound to be technical correction Bills needing to be passed to clear confusion during rule making and implementation

Yeah I agree. Once the new admin comes in, all they will keep chasing is DACA and the border issues unless they manage to take control of the Senate.

[smuggymba]

I doubt how big of a role "SOME" people had in it. For the simple reason that they can't figure out what exactly was passed in the senate. Regardless, congratulations to those that contributed to advocacy. As somebody said above, this may not mean much for people with dates in 2010/12 but it will mean a lot for people with dates in 2015 and beyond.

Q, no need to hate on IV at every given chance. Doesn't matter what their role is/was....it's a good day for us backlogged workers and it's a positive development. No need to be a hater and bring negativity in everything. Just my thought.

[qesehmk]

But the fact remains that for somebody from any country that gets in line today there will be a 15 year wait to a GC.
Thanks gs. The fight for country caps has been difficult because all sides understand this is the lynchpin for eventual lifiting up of overall EB immigration limit.

Once we have generalized the pain then all those nationalities will rise up and demand increasing the limits. My sense is it will happen much sooner than all of us can imagine today.

[qesehmk]

Q, no need to hate on IV at every given chance. Doesn't matter what their role is/was....it's a good day for us backlogged workers and it's a positive development. No need to be a hater and bring negativity in everything. Just my thought.
It's a great day and I will concede to your point.

[newyorker123]

I have a 2013 Priority date, but just joined a company (so don't have PERM started).
If this bill gets approved, will I be able to file I485 only on Oct 1 2022 ? Guessing the filing date might cross 2013 by that time.
This bill would definitely be very beneficial for relative newcomers to US.

[gs1968]

An Update

"Senate Appropriations Committee Chairman Richard Shelby (R-Ala.) indicated Wednesday that a “stopgap” continuing resolution looks likely given how much work still remains on an omnibus bill.If no comprehensive budget bill can be passed in time, lawmakers can pass a short-term continuing resolution that would extend government funding at current levels for a few months."
This means that the Bill may have to go it alone.McConnell has had reservations in the past about adding immigration provisions to the COVID stimulus Bills which again are in limbo.

[vedu]

IV or no IV, whoever contributed to the advocacy efforts in whatever way they can deserve a credit today. Whatever small role they played in this, they made a difference! The bill may or may not pass this time around, but as Q said, it is a big deal that the entire senate passed it for the very first time. As long as there are good people fighting for this just cause, the day is not far that the unfair country caps in the employment based category will be taken away! On this joyous day, I remember Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous "I Have a Dream" speech and hope that our US Citizen children will live in a society based on meritocracy and equality, and not based on the country of origin.

[AceMan]

If this bill gets approved, will I be able to file I485 only on Oct 1 2022 ? Guessing the filing date might cross 2013 by that time.
This bill would definitely be very beneficial for relative newcomers to US.

This is basically it. We are unhappy the new comers will face less misery than us.
We don’t care the country cap is unfair, we are upset a 2020 filer can adjust the status in 2 years if the bill passed.

[AceMan]

hope that our US Citizen children will live in a society based on meritocracy and equality, and not based on the country of origin.

It is thought provoking to expect a society which calls a specific category of people African American when almost all of them has got nothing to do Africa for generations.

[newyorker123]

This is basically it. We are unhappy the new comers will face less misery than us.
We don’t care the country cap is unfair, we are upset a 2020 filer can adjust the status in 2 years if the bill passed.

This is your misinterpretation, Aceman! I am very happy that people will not suffer the way we did.

[qesehmk]

It is thought provoking to expect a society which calls a specific category of people African American when almost all of them has got nothing to do Africa for generations.
Valid point Ace. But to America's credit America talks about race, past injustice, compares black people's income levels to whites and so on so forth. What's quite heartening is that many times white people themselves speak up for Blacks.

I never see Indians speaking for their own oppressed people. We don't recognize we did something wrong or our ancestors did something wrong. We never question how come in India only "certain" castes seem to be omnipresent in all high posts - be it government or private sector. India's systemic racism/casteism is far worse than we like to think.

I hope that people on this forum who are looking forward to be American citizens some day, get inspired by America and try to give our own Dalits Muslims Farmers SC ST NT and perhaps most importantly women the same dignity and rights and opportunities that we aspire to get here in US as minority immigrants.

[gcconnect]

This is basically it. We are unhappy the new comers will face less misery than us.
We don’t care the country cap is unfair, we are upset a 2020 filer can adjust the status in 2 years if the bill passed.

We faced very very less misery compared to people in India before 1947 . But the survivor is always strong and face challenges.:)

[Zenzone]

This is basically it. We are unhappy the new comers will face less misery than us.
We don’t care the country cap is unfair, we are upset a 2020 filer can adjust the status in 2 years if the bill passed.

You hit the nail on the head my friend! Personally I'm in the same boat as many others who filed in October this year after 10 years of waiting so this bill practically doesn't do much for me. I'm still vexed about many many other indian backloggers who are looking at many years (if not decades) of waiting. It's simply unfair and repugnant to have this country cap going and people thinking its somehow justified as business as usual just because we waited everyone else should wait too! That's cerebral myopia and this thinking is music to the ears of restrictionists who make the most of this shut the door after me attitude of some of us. I feel its critical to be a bit altruistic and broad-minded in our thinking here. After all, its our social responsibility to sow the seeds to more welcoming America of the future and its our own kids who will benefit from it in the longer run instead of thinking howcome this chotu who just applied last year can get his EAD when I waited for 10 years. Instead ask yourself why not!!

[gs1968]

Thanks gs. The fight for country caps has been difficult because all sides understand this is the lynchpin for eventual lifiting up of overall EB immigration limit.

Once we have generalized the pain then all those nationalities will rise up and demand increasing the limits. My sense is it will happen much sooner than all of us can imagine today.

From your lips/fingertips to God's ears. We should never lose sight of the fact that for all the hand wringing and fighting on various forums/social media the 120K visas we are talking about only accounts for 0.00036 % of the total US population. I have said this many times before that i still don't understand why it is so hard to increase it by at least 50% annually. Biden says that he will increase refugee entries to 125000 and continue increasing every year (I whole-heartedly support this) and nobody bats an eyelid on either side.These will actually be new people arriving into the USA and not folks who are already here waiting to adjust

[AceMan]

Valid point Ace. But to America's credit America talks about race, past injustice, compares black people's income levels to whites and so on so forth. What's quite heartening is that many times white people themselves speak up for Blacks.

I never see Indians speaking for their own oppressed people. We don't recognize we did something wrong or our ancestors did something wrong. We never question how come in India only "certain" castes seem to be omnipresent in all high posts - be it government or private sector. India's systemic racism/casteism is far worse than we like to think.

I hope that people on this forum who are looking forward to be American citizens some day, get inspired by America and try to give our own Dalits Muslims Farmers SC ST NT and perhaps most importantly women the same dignity and rights and opportunities that we aspire to get here in US as minority immigrants.

You put up a very important point Q. Yesterday I was talking to a colleague of mine from Tamil Nadu and the entire state was praying for the success of their newest bowler in the Indian team. He is the first player from Tamil Nadu from under privileged class to come up the ranks from that state.

I have learned from US, charity is not cheap. I was auditing our funds for the relief and construction we provided from people who suffered losses in natural disaster couple of years back, I realized there is cutting the corners every where.

I was a part of the volunteer team for supplying food to underprivileged people in NYC. I was manning the frozen proteins and giving 1 or 2 chicken as said in the directive sheet. By around noon a person who was the director came and took 2-3 chicken and left. I couldn’t bear the fact that person was taking the chicken meant for people and reported to the site leader. He just relieved me from the position.

So yes, Q I volunteer and I ask tough questions when I see unacceptable practices being done in the name of charity. I always have a moral dilemma. Should I let something slide for greater good or a stickler or ideologue for what I stand

[gs1968]

Tweet from Zoe Lofgren

Yesterday the Senate passed an amended version of the Fairness for High-Skilled Immigrants Act.
While I recognize the sincerity of all Members struggling to find solutions, unfortunately the provisions sent to the House by the Senate most likely make matters worse, not better.

I plan to swiftly & thoughtfully work with my colleagues to resolve outstanding issues & get a measure across the finish line that can pass both Houses of Congress.

No timeline is given for the end result but I assume she means by the time this Congress adjourns before Christmas

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

https://www.visalaw.com/siskind-summary-s-386-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-act-2020-852020/

Summary from Siskind.

[shriny]

You put up a very important point Q. Yesterday I was talking to a colleague of mine from Tamil Nadu and the entire state was praying for the success of their newest bowler in the Indian team. He is the first player from Tamil Nadu from under privileged class to come up the ranks from that state.

I used Tamil Nadu because that is the place the caste violence is still rampant.

I have learned from US, charity is not cheap. I was auditing our funds for the relief and construction we provided from people who suffered losses in natural disaster couple of years back, I realized there is cutting the corners every where.

I was a part of the volunteer team for supplying food to underprivileged people in NYC. I was manning the frozen proteins and giving 1 or 2 chicken as said in the directive sheet. By around noon a person who was the director came and took 2-3 chicken and left. I couldn’t bear the fact that person was taking the chicken meant for people and reported to the site leader. He just relieved me from the position.

So yes, Q I volunteer and I ask tough questions when I see unacceptable practices being done in the name of charity. I always have a moral dilemma. Should I let something slide for greater good or a stickler or ideologue for what I stand



I just want to point out one thing in this post, not sure where you got the data about caste violence in states, we all know that caste-based discrimination and violence is a common issue in India and there are states much worse than TN, yes I agree there are incidents but that doesn't mean it is so bad.


don't want to start an argument, but just want to add TN stands in front when it comes to social justice compared to any other state

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Zoe Lofgren's comments are definitely concerning since there are only a couple of weeks left. By this time, if this was moving forward to be passed in the House, there should have been no more surprises bringing it to the House.

[Zenzone]

I just want to point out one thing in this post, not sure where you got the data about caste violence in states, we all know that caste-based discrimination and violence is a common issue in India and there are states much worse than TN, yes I agree there are incidents but that doesn't mean it is so bad.


don't want to start an argument, but just want to add TN stands in front when it comes to social justice compared to any other state

As a proud Tamil Indian I second your views here :)

[mitul75]

The statement above is in present tense. So I guess it's up for interpretation if they are currently affiliated with the military forces (which is a smaller set of people) or if they ever have been a part of it as required by mandatory service. The future of the bill hinges on which side the argument lands on.

Right... that's what Siskind thinks as well (https://www.visalaw.com/siskind-summary-s-386-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-act-2020-852020/)
“Affiliated with” is not defined, though the language looks to be present tense so would not affect people who are no longer a part of or “affiliated with” either organization.

The big question now is, will House members agree to pass a bill identical in language to the amended bill, that too within a short timeframe? Because when a new divided congress takes office, they are sure to kick the can down the road.

Should the bill become law, that would be a huge win for the Indian population waiting for ages for their GC, waiting helplessly as each day of their life passes right in front of their eyes.

[Zenzone]

Right... that's what Siskind thinks as well (https://www.visalaw.com/siskind-summary-s-386-fairness-high-skilled-immigrants-act-2020-852020/)
“Affiliated with” is not defined, though the language looks to be present tense so would not affect people who are no longer a part of or “affiliated with” either organization.

The big question now is, will House members agree to pass a bill identical in language to the amended bill, that too within a short timeframe? Because when a new divided congress takes office, they are sure to kick the can down the road.

Should the bill become law, that would be a huge win for the Indian population waiting for ages for their GC, waiting helplessly as each day of their life passes right in front of their eyes.

Quick question. I thought the House had to just pass the amendments in the senate version and it becomes good to go to POTUS. Am I wrong?

[qesehmk]

As a proud Tamil Indian I second your views here :)
As a proud marathi I second you seconding Shriny :)

I think India has its shameful stuff but also a very rich culture very unique to each state, a generally tolerant population, and off late there are many more positive changes that I am observing. Cities are much more cosmopolitan. At least in Pune (where I come from) nobody needs parent permission to marry anymore. Parents don't care much about caste of the bride or groom etc. That's all great!

[qesehmk]

I feel concerned about Zoe Lofgren's comments. However I have no doubt on her sincerity to try her best to move this forward (particularly because HR1044 is her baby).

Folks we all owe her big time. As far as I know she is the first lawmaker ever to take up this cause of removing country caps.

Never forget this.

[AceMan]

I just want to point out one thing in this post, not sure where you got the data about caste violence in states, we all know that caste-based discrimination and violence is a common issue in India and there are states much worse than TN, yes I agree there are incidents but that doesn't mean it is so bad.


don't want to start an argument, but just want to add TN stands in front when it comes to social justice compared to any other state

My sincere apologies, if I had disrespected Tamil Nadu, that was not my intention. Re reading my post , I can see what I presented can be interpreted as pointing fingers. During my PG days I had been invited to a marriage of my classmates sister to Thirunelveli, and we were told not cross some areas as there was some disputes there. My idea was formulated by the eerie sense prevailing at the time of the marriage with is unfair to attribute to the whole state or even to the city.

[gs1968]

Quick question. I thought the House had to just pass the amendments in the senate version and it becomes good to go to POTUS. Am I wrong?

Basically if the House agrees with the Senate Bill it can pass the Bill as is and send it to the President. It appears like Lofgren has issues with the Senate Bill which is significantly different from the House Bill that passed last summer. She wants to get approval from her House colleagues and also the Senate Members to come up with a reconciled version that can pass both chambers. At this point it is unclear when and how that will happen given the time constraints.

[AceMan]

Thappu panniten, mannichidungo please?

Q, Malā māpha karā bhā'ū

[Zenzone]

Thappu panniten, mannichidungo please?

Q, Malā māpha karā bhā'ū

haha! Good one mate!

[suninphx]

Q, Malā māpha karā bhā'ū

LOL - q तुला नक्की माफ करेल (or so do I hope being fellow Puneri)

[qesehmk]

Thappu panniten, mannichidungo please?

Q, Malā māpha karā bhā'ū

LoL .... for what?

BTW - I found your story about charity chicken quite funny because I thought that was a bit over the top principled!! You ought to be made an honorary citizen of Pune. The place has many such crazy ass principled people. Mean no disrespect -- telling you beforehand ;)

[rabp77]

Basically if the House agrees with the Senate Bill it can pass the Bill as is and send it to the President. It appears like Lofgren has issues with the Senate Bill which is significantly different from the House Bill that passed last summer. She wants to get approval from her House colleagues and also the Senate Members to come up with a reconciled version that can pass both chambers. At this point it is unclear when and how that will happen given the time constraints.

i think we have see quite a few times that senate pass a bill, and it gets no where in house. Or house passes it, and its goes nowhere in senate. Hopes have been dashed so many times, that its good to have low expectations.

[qesehmk]

i think we have see quite a few times that senate pass a bill, and it gets no where in house. Or house passes it, and its goes nowhere in senate. Hopes have been dashed so many times, that its good to have low expectations.
The difference this time is - it is the house bill that is sent back to house. So this is an amendment. The problem is Zoe lofgren says the amendment makes the problem worse. So she is going to change something have house approve it and then hope senate also approves it.

I think that's a tall order.

[alpha0]

The difference this time is - it is the house bill that is sent back to house. So this is an amendment. The problem is Zoe lofgren says the amendment makes the problem worse. So she is going to change something have house approve it and then hope senate also approves it.

I think that's a tall order.

I have doubts about democrats' intentions at this time. Biden is going to be in WH soon and dems control house. It is very likely that republicans will control senate. If Biden wants to do something for DACA and undocumented, dems need some bargaining chips with republicans and this seems like a good chip as tech lobby support this bill.

[qesehmk]

I have doubts about democrats' intentions at this time. Biden is going to be in WH soon and dems control house. It is very likely that republicans will control senate. If Biden wants to do something for DACA and undocumented, dems need some bargaining chips with republicans and this seems like a good chip as tech lobby support this bill.
This is no chip for republicans. Wake up. Republicans sat on this Dem bill for 15 months and are sending back to house with 2 weeks remaining. Senator after senator from GOP held this up for no reason only to pass it with significant alterations with 2 weeks to go for the house session to end.

[AceMan]

LoL .... for what?

BTW - I found your story about charity chicken quite funny because I thought that was a bit over the top principled!! You ought to be made an honorary citizen of Pune. The place has many such crazy ass principled people. Mean no disrespect -- telling you beforehand ;)

None taken!!! It was like see something, say something.

[gs1968]

This is no chip for republicans. Wake up. Republicans sat on this Dem bill for 15 months and are sending back to house with 2 weeks remaining. Senator after senator from GOP held this up for no reason only to pass it with significant alterations with 2 weeks to go for the house session to end.

The deal with Sen.Durbin was more detailed and nuanced and I can agree that a 6 month delay was probably reasonable. Sen.Scott probably told Lee what he wanted in the Bill even before the block and I am sure they did not need 4 months to come up with 2 small subsections at the end of the Bill. The impact obviously is huge if only 70% of green cards are available for H-1B conversion which is the largest source of backlog. Sen.Lee was probably debating the right course and decided to ask for UC again and pass some veriosn of the Bill in the Senate to start off negotiations/conference. I do agree that the time appears to be limited for reconciliation and may explain the lack of objection in the senate.

[qesehmk]

The deal with Sen.Durbin was more detailed and nuanced and I can agree that a 6 month delay was probably reasonable. Sen.Scott probably told Lee what he wanted in the Bill even before the block and I am sure they did not need 4 months to come up with 2 small subsections at the end of the Bill. The impact obviously is huge if only 70% of green cards are available for H-1B conversion which is the largest source of backlog. Sen.Lee was probably debating the right course and decided to ask for UC again and pass some veriosn of the Bill in the Senate to start off negotiations/conference. I do agree that the time appears to be limited for reconciliation and may explain the lack of objection in the senate.
I love your nuanced way of thinking and writing. Thank you for that.

This makes for a rich conversation as compared with when we fight along fault lines such as dems this and reps that! Appreciate it.

[AceMan]

I love your nuanced way of thinking and writing. Thank you for that.

This makes for a rich conversation as compared with when we fight along fault lines such as dems this and reps that! Appreciate it.

I see a long term situation with the bill. I am not discounting the fact the features of applying for AOS after 2 years of approved EAD and kids age lock out is a million times better than the current situation.

Hypothetically if the bill passes the house as is and the President signs it, law will be from FY 2023 according to the new terms. Please note the people will be greened only when final date is valid for applicants PD. We had just seen the April 2020 numbers where Eb2 India has 300,000 primaries waiting. Adding a single dependent will show the number to be 600,000. Every year on an average India is adding 50,000 primary applicants in Eb2 and 3 combined.

It will be unlikely Fd to go beyond Jan 2015 in 2032 even after the rule is in place. I would count about 5-10 million people in Trishanku status.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

I see a long term situation with the bill. I am not discounting the fact the features of applying for AOS after 2 years of approved EAD and kids age lock out is a million times better than the current situation.

Hypothetically if the bill passes the house as is and the President signs it, law will be from FY 2023 according to the new terms. Please note the people will be greened only when final date is valid for applicants PD. We had just seen the April 2020 numbers where Eb2 India has 300,000 primaries waiting. Adding a single dependent will show the number to be 600,000. Every year on an average India is adding 50,000 primary applicants in Eb2 and 3 combined.

It will be unlikely Fd to go beyond Jan 2015 in 2032 even after the rule is in place. I would count about 5-10 million people in Trishanku status.

This is exactly my view and I couldn't articulate it better. All this bill does, and has been trying to do since 2011 is try to rearrange the visa allocation, i.e. take pain from one or two parties and distribute it to everyone else in the name of fairness so that everyone feels some pain. It's just completely bogus and I totally don't buy the 'at least it's a start'. All it will do is pit different immigrant groups against each other and against US tech workers. The China exclusion stuff is also completely baloney. Let's say when you were a child in India and went to some RSS camps because you were made to and there is a record of it. Now if you are denied a GC based on that even though you have spent the last 20 years in the US and don't espouse any radical views, will that be fair?

[AceMan]

When a compromise is being looked for, a less than perfect solution is acceptable for no solution at all.

[qesehmk]

All this bill does, and has been trying to do since 2011 is try to rearrange the visa allocation, .....

The China exclusion stuff is also completely baloney.
On these two counts i have a bit different view. Even if the current bill rearranges, that by itself alleviates pain for EB-IC backlog and more importantly it paves the way for lifting up of overall EB limit from 140K to perhaps 250K. Today because the backlog is monolithic, nobody cares about it.

As per China - i think it is reasonable to scrutinize or ban people that belong to armed forces of other countries especially hostile countries (china I don't believe is a hostile country but unfortunately quite a few americans think that way). That's America's sovereign right. Generally speaking if you haven't done anything against USA or humanity there is nothing to be afraid of. I myself was part of NCC and wrote in my citizenship application. Many Indian armed forces folks have become American citizens. I personally know at least one.

[vedu]

This is exactly my view and I couldn't articulate it better. All this bill does, and has been trying to do since 2011 is try to rearrange the visa allocation, i.e. take pain from one or two parties and distribute it to everyone else in the name of fairness so that everyone feels some pain. It's just completely bogus and I totally don't buy the 'at least it's a start'. All it will do is pit different immigrant groups against each other and against US tech workers. The China exclusion stuff is also completely baloney. Let's say when you were a child in India and went to some RSS camps because you were made to and there is a record of it. Now if you are denied a GC based on that even though you have spent the last 20 years in the US and don't espouse any radical views, will that be fair?

Criticizing something is easier than coming up with your own solution. Say you are given a chance to prepare a fresh bill from the scratch with no current baggage (existing backlogs, etc. none). Then how will you do it? Where will you set the cap for max number of annual visas? 140,000 or 250,000 or no max cap (infinity). No max cap will help everybody and millions and millions of people from all different countries will come to the US every year. Next question is whatever annual cap you decide, how will you allocate it? Will you allocate it based on the specific quota for each country or on a first come, first serve basis? OR will you allot separate quota for each industry type? There are so many other questions you will have to answer in your bill. How will you deal with people with affiliation with foreign armed forces, etc.? Will there be some kind of stops for bad agents OR will your bill welcome everybody to this country irrespective of their background. Then, once you decide on that, how will you do the background check, particularly if foreign armed forces will like to keep that data confidential for their own sovereignty and security related concerns? And then, when you come up with your final bill, your next task is to get 100 people to agree on that.

[gs1968]

When a compromise is being looked for, a less than perfect solution is acceptable for no solution at all.

I did some basic calculations on my understanding of the current Bill for EB-3 and I am hoping that I am seriously wrong with this as I am not great at reading Bill language.This calculation is for EB3 category for FY23
If we assume 70% of 40K it gives us 28000 visas for EB3 for H-1B conversion.5.75 % reserved for abroad applications (non-India/China) is 2300 (40000 x 0.0575) decreasing number availability to 25700. 30% for non India/China as part of transition is 12000 bringing availability down to 13700. 4400 for primary nurse applicants and conservatively 4400 for dependents = 8800 bringing it down to 4900 per year for India/China for FY23. Is my reasoning correct ? This clearly cannot be right so i must be reading the language wrong or double counting or overlapping categories. I am also not clear on how the 70% cap is calculated but based on Sen.Scott's press release he wants that amount for workers not on H-1B. The law states that no more than 10000 visas should be issued in EB-3 category for unskilled workers and hat is the number he is trying to preserve.Please feel free to correct and I will be happy to be wrong

[Zenzone]

This is exactly my view and I couldn't articulate it better. All this bill does, and has been trying to do since 2011 is try to rearrange the visa allocation, i.e. take pain from one or two parties and distribute it to everyone else in the name of fairness so that everyone feels some pain. It's just completely bogus and I totally don't buy the 'at least it's a start'. All it will do is pit different immigrant groups against each other and against US tech workers. The China exclusion stuff is also completely baloney. Let's say when you were a child in India and went to some RSS camps because you were made to and there is a record of it. Now if you are denied a GC based on that even though you have spent the last 20 years in the US and don't espouse any radical views, will that be fair?

As Q eloquently puts above, breaking the country cap will shed a light of urgency on GC backlogs and how pathetic the age old arbitrary 140K cap actually is. Then it unifies every immigrant as opposed to pitting us against each other based on the country we belong to presently. That paves the way for an organized push which will be second stage for an increase in the # of EB GCs. Ultimately, I don't see anything else solving the problem. Alternatively, measures like not counting the derivatives into the visa cap and re-capturing unused visas from the past may alleviate the problem but not solve it in the longer run. Removing the country cap makes this problem to be seen and felt by every single immigrant and consequently unifies our activism efforts.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Criticizing something is easier than coming up with your own solution. Say you are given a chance to prepare a fresh bill from the scratch with no current baggage (existing backlogs, etc. none). Then how will you do it? Where will you set the cap for max number of annual visas? 140,000 or 250,000 or no max cap (infinity). No max cap will help everybody and millions and millions of people from all different countries will come to the US every year. Next question is whatever annual cap you decide, how will you allocate it? Will you allocate it based on the specific quota for each country or on a first come, first serve basis? OR will you allot separate quota for each industry type? There are so many other questions you will have to answer in your bill. How will you deal with people with affiliation with foreign armed forces, etc.? Will there be some kind of stops for bad agents OR will your bill welcome everybody to this country irrespective of their background. Then, once you decide on that, how will you do the background check, particularly if foreign armed forces will like to keep that data confidential for their own sovereignty and security related concerns? And then, when you come up with your final bill, your next task is to get 100 people to agree on that.

There are other countries which have modernized or in the process of modernizing the immigration system. It is not some massively groundbreaking idea, just that there is no will to do it here. So though my lament may be viewed as criticism of other's efforts to at least do something about it. it's really pointed toward the fact there can be no consensus to pass meaningful immigration reform now or in the future which will factually benefit the US and the people immigrating here.

[AceMan]

As Q eloquently puts above, breaking the country cap will shed a light of urgency on GC backlogs and how pathetic the age old arbitrary 140K cap actually is. Then it unifies every immigrant as opposed to pitting us against each other based on the country we belong to presently. That paves the way for an organized push which will be second stage for an increase in the # of EB GCs. Ultimately, I don't see anything else solving the problem. Alternatively, measures like not counting the derivatives into the visa cap and re-capturing unused visas from the past may alleviate the problem but not solve it in the longer run. Removing the country cap makes this problem to be seen and felt by every single immigrant and consequently unifies our activism efforts.

As I mentioned earlier 5-10 million Thrishanku legal people will look for fairness at that time and it would be a joint effort nearly 30 years after the problem first surfaced.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Trump and his cronies are going to loom large over the next four years. They will continue to drumbeat all the nativist and nationalistic views and keep dishing out disinformation and misinformation to undermine every single agenda in the Biden administration by interjecting themselves at every point. Sorry, I don't know why I am feeling so pessimistic in my outlook. The way the post election madness has gone on with the support of 70+ million Americans cheering on for a demagogue has really soured my optimism for America in general in the short term.

[alpha0]

This is no chip for republicans. Wake up. Republicans sat on this Dem bill for 15 months and are sending back to house with 2 weeks remaining. Senator after senator from GOP held this up for no reason only to pass it with significant alterations with 2 weeks to go for the house session to end.

It was Sen Durbin who killed the most time and changed the basic structure of the bill by adding EAD providions and other stuff. For Sen Scott, i dont even know why he put a hold and what he really wanted as it was very clear that he was asked to do that by someone else.

I strongly feel that if the bill removed country caps from say 40-50% of EB GCs and kept the caps on rest, most of these carveouts would not have been necessary and implementation of the bill could be much simpler.

[qesehmk]

It was Sen Durbin who killed the most time and changed the basic structure of the bill by adding EAD providions and other stuff. For Sen Scott, i dont even know why he put a hold and what he really wanted as it was very clear that he was asked to do that by someone else.

I strongly feel that if the bill removed country caps from say 40-50% of EB GCs and kept the caps on rest, most of these carveouts would not have been necessary and implementation of the bill could be much simpler.
I agree with second part above.

But as per Durbin - I have debuked this many times. There is a thread on this topic, please read if it is of value to you.

https://www.qesehmk.org/forums/showthread.php/2795-S386-GOP-Politics-and-Sen-Durbin/page15?highlight=Durbin

[Sebiswaiting]

My thought on per-country quota.
1.For Employment based GC, country quota doesn't belong. It doesn't make any sence. Skill/Job is irrelevant to country of birth. Country quota is against EB purpose.
2. Diversity visa has country counts. It is needed there as the purpose of the visa is diversity. Diversity visa doesn't allow countries like India/China. And I agree they should not be allowed as their large numbers do not help purpose of the DV.

It is irrelevant whether pain moves from one set of people to another. But it is relevant that birth country is wrong in EB.

Increasing GC - That is lawmakers job to define based on countries need. It may be reduced or increased based on employment need, not based on backlog size.

[AceMan]

My thought on per-country quota.
1.For Employment based GC, country quota doesn't belong. It doesn't make any sence. Skill/Job is irrelevant to country of birth. Country quota is against EB purpose.
2. Diversity visa has country counts. It is needed there as the purpose of the visa is diversity. Diversity visa doesn't allow countries like India/China. And I agree they should not be allowed as their large numbers do not help purpose of the DV.

It is irrelevant whether pain moves from one set of people to another. But it is relevant that birth country is wrong in EB.

Increasing GC - That is lawmakers job to define based on countries need. It may be reduced or increased based on employment need, not based on backlog size.

Employment based immigration when designed in late 80's was seen as an extension of family based. Not only the country quota, family members take nearly 60% of visa.
If you see https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/yearbook/2019/table7 the actual number of Primary candidates US accepted from the entire world is.
E11/16- 4053, E12/17 - 1982, E13/18 - 9639 totals to 15,674 for EB1 primaries from entire world
E21/26 - 19834
E31/36 - 8684, E32/37 - 9733, EW3/W8 - 2322 totals to 20739

In 2019 only about 56,000 primaries from the entire world in EB quota was greened

When the rules were defined US was the unparalleled super power in the world and was the giver. Now with more than 20 trillion debt, it cannot rest on its legacy and history and with restrictive EB based immigration it cannot afford for every high paying job to leave US.

[HarepathekaIntezar]

This is no chip for republicans. Wake up. Republicans sat on this Dem bill for 15 months and are sending back to house with 2 weeks remaining. Senator after senator from GOP held this up for no reason only to pass it with significant alterations with 2 weeks to go for the house session to end.

I agree, I don't think this Bill is going to pass at all.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

https://twitter.com/IraKurzban/status/1336710125407653889

It looks like an attempt is being made to slide 1044 as part of the Omnibus spending bill. Immigration lawyers are mad, which is sometimes a good thing. I am trying to find more sources to confirm this.

For those who can't read the tweet:
Ira J. Kurzban
@IraKurzban
·
4h
Congress is about to slip in the OMNIBUS spending bill a horrible IMMIGRATION bill (HR 1044)that will end immig. through employment for decades except for Indian nationals. If they can pass bad laws like HR 1044 DEMAND inclusion of DACA/TPS NOW in Omnibus.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

https://twitter.com/ckuck/status/1336757834885836805

Charles Kuck saying that Zoe Lofgren has taken out the 'no harm' provisions. There is nothing out in public, so don't know where he is getting this info from.

Tweet text:
What will the now denuded HR1044 do? Here are the new wait times (at a minimum), effective immediately:

EB1 – 3 years
EB2- 16 years
EB3 -4 years

Within a decade wait times will extend to:

EB1 – 7 years
EB2- 37 years
EB3 - 11 years

Lofgren took OUT the "No-Harm" provisions.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Another tweet from Kuck, he is certainly going off the deep end to wish for the status quo to continue:

https://twitter.com/ckuck/status/1336772413032423425

#HR1044 / #S386 will retrogress worldwide #EB5 visas to 8 years immediately, and to 16 years by the end of the 2030.

[vsivarama]

Wow! Can really sense panic in the air, now. Hope it goes through and thus opening up the doors for future immigration changes. This is the key bill which will compel ROW to take notice and join in the fight instead of being on the sidelines eating pop corn while the backlogged folks despair.

[EB22010Dec]

https://twitter.com/IraKurzban/status/1336710125407653889

It looks like an attempt is being made to slide 1044 as part of the Omnibus spending bill. Immigration lawyers are mad, which is sometimes a good thing. I am trying to find more sources to confirm this.

For those who can't read the tweet:
Ira J. Kurzban
@IraKurzban
·
4h
Congress is about to slip in the OMNIBUS spending bill a horrible IMMIGRATION bill (HR 1044)that will end immig. through employment for decades except for Indian nationals. If they can pass bad laws like HR 1044 DEMAND inclusion of DACA/TPS NOW in Omnibus.


When will we know the answer ?

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

When will we know the answer ?

With the new CR being passed, I believe they will have until Dec 18 to hammer the deal out.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

I know this is a controversial source (US Tech Workers) but they seem to have more intel than others at this point:

https://twitter.com/USTechWorkers/status/1336790185879736320

Sources are telling us that Sen. Mike Lee (R-UT) is trying to work with Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-CA 19th District) to insert HR1044 into an Omnibus Bill.

This is Mike Lee's DC Office number: 202-224-5444

Let his office know how you feel about this.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Siskind pushing back on Ckuck's calculations predicting doom and gloom.

https://twitter.com/gsiskind/status/1336809830225485825

You know as well as anyone that there is no real way to know the number so this is a total guess. You ought to show the math including how the suddenly available rolled over green card numbers are factored in.
5:07 PM · Dec 9, 2020·Twitter for iPhone

For example, lots of people have multiple I-140 approvals. And many people abandon their place in line. How are these factored in?

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

Fresh update from Siskind: Chinese exclusion has become a sticking point stalling the inclusion of HR1044 in the Omnibus bill.

https://twitter.com/gsiskind/status/1339261537035358208

As predicted, the China provision is the main sticking point preventing possible inclusion of 1044/386 per country caps language in the omnibus bill. Several dozen advocacy organizations, including a number of Asian American groups, have come out opposing that language.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

FYI, it looks like the goose is cooked as far as including 1044 is concerned.

https://twitter.com/gsiskind/status/1339312380518522882

Hearing 1044/386 isn't going to be in the omnibus because Scott refused to budge. Seems like it's over until next year. The good news is Biden has ending country caps in his immigration plan (along with early adjustment and expanding green card numbers for everyone).

[qesehmk]

Is there any other advocacy group working on country caps? If so - do contact me. I think I can help you with strategy?

Some of the current advocacy efforts come across as naive and are bound to create friction with other groups.

Those of you who followed the events of the day today, you could see opposition weaving clever narrative and coalition against this bill.

I think we can prevail over them ... so if there is another group - happy to help you out guys. This can be done without antagonizing ROW countries.

[HarepathekaIntezar]

Is there any other advocacy group working on country caps? If so - do contact me. I think I can help you with strategy?

Some of the current advocacy efforts come across as naive and are bound to create friction with other groups.

Those of you who followed the events of the day today, you could see opposition weaving clever narrative and coalition against this bill.

I think we can prevail over them ... so if there is another group - happy to help you out guys. This can be done without antagonizing ROW countries.

They will definitely need your strategy in 2021 because the Covid-19 relief bill did not have the H.R 1044 in it, so we are back to square 1.

[qesehmk]

They will definitely need your strategy in 2021 because the Covid-19 relief bill did not have the H.R 1044 in it, so we are back to square 1.
I think this is very doable but somehow desi folks easily get swayed by propaganda, show too much aggression, or too much fear in dealing with different stakeholders. Happy to help any group that is working on the ground.

[alpha0]

I think this is very doable but somehow desi folks easily get swayed by propaganda, show too much aggression, or too much fear in dealing with different stakeholders. Happy to help any group that is working on the ground.

We know there is a chance that congress will be back next week to override Trump's veto of defense authorization. Also not sure what is going to happen with funding bill + covid relief bill. Since IV has not made any statement, do you all think they might still be trying to push this bill one more time if there is window of opportunity next week?

[qesehmk]

We know there is a chance that congress will be back next week to override Trump's veto of defense authorization. Also not sure what is going to happen with funding bill + covid relief bill. Since IV has not made any statement, do you all think they might still be trying to push this bill one more time if there is window of opportunity next week?

Here is a great example of how Unanimous Consent can be used as a political tool.

Pelosi on thursday is going to ask for UC for raising covid help to 2000 per person - something she always wanted but couldn't get from GOP. Trump as crazy as it gets has asked for the same after his own people negotiated the deal HE wanted.

So what does Pelosi do now? Read carefully how to read the tealeaves of American politics!!

Pelosi knows she has a chance of snowball in hell to get that 2000 from GOP. But she also wants to demonstrate to American people that she does want to give 2000 USD to families. But while doing so she does not want to throw away the existing deal that was made after painstaking efforts. After all her constituency more than GOP constituency needs whatever money comes their way.

So what does she do without risking existing deal?

She asks for Unanimous Consent over $2000 covid relief. She already has the votes in house and could have asked for a vote and passed in house. But no - she asks for UC knowing it will fail and then she has not created busy work for GOP senators who would have struck down such house bill anyway!! And thus with UC defeated, the house and senate will override Trumps COVID veto (if he vetoes - which imho he won't).

My friends that's how things work. IV are fools and have been taken for a ride over UC for S386. GOP used IV to blame Sen. Durbin and then finally passed amended HR1044 that has zero chance of passing house with 14 days remaining. They need to wake up and reconcile with this reality.

While I haven't set foot in congress or wherever - I think I know this stuff better than IV for sure. Forget IV. I do think country caps can be removed very quickly now that in principle both houses agree; one just needs to wade through procedures and torpedoes and minefields of X number of legislations their priorities and not get sucked into stupid mistakes such as UC. I am very confident this is possible and in sight.

[alpha0]

I understand.

I hope next year bill is simplified like removing country caps from say 50% of total EB numbers. Not sure whether such a bill will go to senate stand alone or say merged with some DACA provisions, but in any case will go thru regular process of committee and floor votes in senate. That will eliminate dozens of carveouts and poisons pills which were added by individual senators sometimes just with the sole purpose to kill the bill.

I dont think Biden has any plans to push for CIR next year when unemployment rates are still in 7-8% range.

[qesehmk]

I understand.

I hope next year bill is simplified like removing country caps from say 50% of total EB numbers. Not sure whether such a bill will go to senate stand alone or say merged with some DACA provisions, but in any case will go thru regular process of committee and floor votes in senate. That will eliminate dozens of carveouts and poisons pills which were added by individual senators sometimes just with the sole purpose to kill the bill.

I dont think Biden has any plans to push for CIR next year when unemployment rates are still in 7-8% range.

You are correct that it needs to be a reasonably stand alone bill. I think it is possible when there is that much intensity around the topic and interests are aligned.

So the trick is to align interests.

Biden has ton of things to undo from Trump era before he does CIR. But the rate of unemployment is not necessarily at cross with immigration. Rather immigration helps reduce unemployment when used properly as an economic policy tool.

[qesehmk]

See what I was saying earlier today?

GOP killed the house bid for Trump's ASK of 2000 USD COVID relief.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/24/politics/house-vote-stimulus-checks-government/index.html
(https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/24/politics/house-vote-stimulus-checks-government/index.html)


Thus one uses UC either to pass mundane stuff OR to strategically kill a bill.

GOP used UC on S386 as a way to blame Sen Durbin.

[Noesis]

So true; the minute the chances of getting Amended HR1044 passed slipped away; so many started blaming Lofgren left and right (see twitter). Same happened earlier with Durbin and Scott as well. I am not sure what could be achieved by humiliating someone like that; thin line between right to question and abusing someone. We all Desis would need to understand this if they want the new admin to pass a CIR then it would only happen by not harming the public image of those who hold the power to pass or not pass the bill.

[qesehmk]

So true; the minute the chances of getting Amended HR1044 passed slipped away; so many started blaming Lofgren left and right (see twitter). Same happened earlier with Durbin and Scott as well. I am not sure what could be achieved by humiliating someone like that; thin line between right to question and abusing someone. We all Desis would need to understand this if they want the new admin to pass a CIR then it would only happen by not harming the public image of those who hold the power to pass or not pass the bill.

hobnobing with American right by Indian right wing is counter productive to EB-I backlogged folks because American right wing is utterly anti-immigrant and a lot of times outright racist. But fanatics have deep entrenched views and don't understand don't care

Lofgren is the very first politician who spoke against country caps. Ever. And I mean it. She cared when nobody else did.

[vedu]

:-D Give Biden time to settle in. It is not even 2 days since he became the President. Let us look at the April bulletin to see if the new administration changes are up to the speed with expectation. EB1 has reached January 2020, considering the low applicant resultant of covid impact from March 2020, Eb1 India can be current by April 2021 bulletin.

We should blame this on the old admin and wait for the next visa bulletin. But don't worry, even if visas are wasted this year, the new admin has plans to recapture all the lost visas at a future date! In fact, even that won't be necessary. They are working on big things for us. Didn't you see that new shiny immigration bill? As people are saying...the country quotas will be gone in 2 years and there will be no backlog in 5 years from now. Do you know what all this is called? It's Fugazi.;)

[Zenzone]

We should blame this on the old admin and wait for the next visa bulletin. But don't worry, even if visas are wasted this year, the new admin has plans to recapture all the lost visas at a future date! In fact, even that won't be necessary. They are working on big things for us. Didn't you see that new shiny immigration bill? As people are saying...the country quotas will be gone in 2 years and there will be no backlog in 5 years from now. Do you know what all this is called? It's Fugazi.;)

What was the alternative my friend!? We are atleast in this situation wherein we are talking about many positive immi. news overall....I see that as a blessing as such. I personally never thought I would get my EAD in 2021 and here I am....if we came this far there is no reason to lose hope now! Yes I try my best to not see the glass half empty no matter what :)

[qesehmk]

What was the alternative my friend!? We are atleast in this situation wherein we are talking about many positive immi. news overall....I see that as a blessing as such. I personally never thought I would get my EAD in 2021 and here I am....if we came this far there is no reason to lose hope now! Yes I try my best to not see the glass half empty no matter what :)
Indeed! Biden showed his commitment on day 1. We shouldn't underestimate nor overestimate. It's a big thing that first time ever a US president says country caps need to go. It will be uphill battle but I think it will be done within 2 years. Backlogs as we know it will go away in five years after country caps will be gone. After that all countries will be more or less on the same footing within each category. But it neither is going to happen automatically nor immediately.

All these GOP minded backlogged folks who had pinned their hopes on Trump and GOP, I challenge you to go and build support among GOP for country caps removal.

[AceMan]

We should blame this on the old admin and wait for the next visa bulletin. But don't worry, even if visas are wasted this year, the new admin has plans to recapture all the lost visas at a future date! In fact, even that won't be necessary. They are working on big things for us. Didn't you see that new shiny immigration bill? As people are saying...the country quotas will be gone in 2 years and there will be no backlog in 5 years from now. Do you know what all this is called? It's Fugazi.;)

The admin to be blamed is the one from 2009. The one in 2017 was an extension of the same little more uglier. I had put another post earlier today, if they are really serious about this, H1 should be treated as immigration visa, after 3 years automatic 140 based on last 2-3 years tax return GC on the date of completion of 6th year of H1 and Citizen application eligibility 2 years from then. 8 years pathway to citizenship for H1, L1, OPT if they are really serious about it.

Otherwise we can continue to attribute blame to the previous administrations, which is the easiest thing to do. Blame the past, ignore the present, destroy the future

[AceMan]

All these GOP minded backlogged folks who had pinned their hopes on Trump and GOP, I challenge you to go and build support among GOP for country caps removal.

Q, you see the problem. While you have been consistent on immigrant needs have you ever tried to understand the majority base beyond the impression of them as basket cases.

When you present it as challenge, they are sure to take it as a challenge and will solidly run it to the ground. Just like you have opportunists like Obama in 2007 in Democratic Party, there are enough in Republican side too.

Attempt to get consensus instead of trying to rub it in. I can guarantee that that second method is a sure shot way to failure.

[vedu]

AceMan,

Yes, I read that post and it does make sense to me. And I wasn't picking on you. I just used your post to express my feelings.

In this D's vs R's battle and the resultant status quo, any bad news is actually good news and any good news is actually bad. I said this before also. One doesn't have to be genius to figure that out. Zenzone got his chance at EAD, because the bad news of family visa ban due to COVID was actually a good news for him. And I am not even being insensitive about it. I personally lost my dear ones in this pandemic. But this is the TRUTH!

[Zenzone]

Q, you see the problem. While you have been consistent on immigrant needs have you ever tried to understand the majority base beyond the impression of them as basket cases.

When you present it as challenge, they are sure to take it as a challenge and will solidly run it to the ground. Just like you have opportunists like Obama in 2007 in Democratic Party, there are enough in Republican side too.

Attempt to get consensus instead of trying to rub it in. I can guarantee that that second method is a sure shot way to failure.

When BO was around and the CIR bill came to Senate in 2013, it was Grassley who put the hold on it. In every way of any immi. proposal its the GOP that gets in the way. They are experts at shifting blame and pitting one group of immigrants against others.

[AceMan]

When BO was around and the CIR bill came to Senate in 2013, it was Grassley who put the hold on it. In every way of any immi. proposal its the GOP that gets in the way. They are experts at shifting blame and pitting one group of immigrants against others.

Grassley is an octogenarian senior ranking senator well respected on both sides and he blocked it due to some valid concerns. When you try to brand him as opportunistic, I can only say that you are very wrong here. Cruz was an opportunist, Trump was another one was had the free support of all these CNN, NBC. They were celebrating his name calling. The only person who questioned Trump directly was Megyn Kelly from Fox. These news sites wanted to deliver a show instead of reality, you got that for 4 years.

Do not blame GOP for that. Think of Kevin Yoder who supported the immigration needs of legals as his main task was run down not only democrats but his own party voters

[qesehmk]

Q, you see the problem. While you have been consistent on immigrant needs have you ever tried to understand the majority base beyond the impression of them as basket cases.

When you present it as challenge, they are sure to take it as a challenge and will solidly run it to the ground. Just like you have opportunists like Obama in 2007 in Democratic Party, there are enough in Republican side too.

Attempt to get consensus instead of trying to rub it in. I can guarantee that that second method is a sure shot way to failure.
The challenge is to our own people who danced with GOP and attended the rally in houston in the hope that Trump is our guy. I never for once thought so. I have seen this game for far too long. EVERY time there was any talk of any immigration reform, some crazy guy within GOP would always botch it.

We don't need to capitulate, appease GOP nor rub it in. We need to come across polite, confident and firm in our position that country caps are unjust. GOP must understand that Texas is already a majority minority state. So their anti-immigrant stance is no loner sustainable.

In any case appeasement of racist folks is never going to be the answer.

[qesehmk]

Grassley .... he blocked it due to some valid concerns.
Before there was hawley and ted cruz and jeff sessions and michelle bachman and sarah palin there was chuck grassley. The guy is pretty much founder of modern anti immigrant sentiment.

[AceMan]

The challenge is to our own people who danced with GOP and attended the rally in houston in the hope that Trump is our guy. I never for once thought so. I have seen this game for far too long. EVERY time there was any talk of any immigration reform, some crazy guy within GOP would always botch it.

We don't need to capitulate, appease GOP nor rub it in. We need to come across polite, confident and firm in our position that country caps are unjust. GOP must understand that Texas is already a majority minority state. So their anti-immigrant stance is no loner sustainable.

In any case appeasement of racist folks is never going to be the answer.

Polite, and the model of politeness should be AOC/Omar/Tayeb right? And when you point out their repulsive behavior, you get called anti woman/ anti minority/ anti latino/ anti religious and what not. The very point that you think of negotiation as capitulate/appeasement shows the concern.

Trump was never the GOP, he was propelled to top with the support of the sound bites by CNN/NBC and other left media who wanted to rub the GOP down. He is gone already.

Do not blame GOP when Dems push unworkable deals to the bill.

[AceMan]

Before there was hawley and ted cruz and jeff sessions and michelle bachman and sarah palin there was chuck grassley. The guy is pretty much founder of modern anti immigrant sentiment.

Grassley voted for Reagans 1986 immigration. He changed his stance after seeing the failed promises after that. It is very clearly documented with his actions. And for the ladies you listed above, Dems have equal and counter weight in AOC/Omar/Tayeb.

Did you ignore the fact, these people voted against HR 1044 in the house?

[qesehmk]

Polite, and the model of politeness should be AOC/Omar/Tayeb right? And when you point out their repulsive behavior, you get called anti woman/ anti minority/ anti latino/ anti religious and what not. The very point that you think of negotiation as capitulate/appeasement shows the concern.

Trump was never the GOP, he was propelled to top with the support of the sound bites by CNN/NBC and other left media who wanted to rub the GOP down. He is gone already.

Do not blame GOP when Dems push unworkable deals to the bill.

Ace don't fall for Trump language of calling women "Nasty" when they are strong. AOC / Omar / Tayeb are strong women. I 100% approve of the way they conduct themselves. But anyway we were talking about "us" demanding things from GOP politely but firmly. As our right not as some doleout.

I agree about Trump not being a republican ever. I hope GOP goes back to its conservative libertarian roots.

[AceMan]

Ace don't fall for Trump language of calling women "Nasty" when they are strong. AOC / Omar / Tayeb are strong women. I 100% approve of the way they conduct themselves. But anyway we were talking about "us" demanding things from GOP politely but firmly. As our right not as some doleout.

I agree about Trump not being a republican ever. I hope GOP goes back to its conservative libertarian roots.

Why was Sarah Palin/ Michelle Backmann not given the same respect? I am not talking Trump's language, I am talking the points made by level headed Republican supporters. The media's intent to show them as some dumb bimbo's is what I am talking about.

Nikky Haley is a strong woman from my view. Firm and stood for what I believe is right. Mike Pence stood for the constitution. GOP is like an amalgamation of Libertarian, conservatives, southern Bapists, and lot of Indian origin people lately. So branding them as Neo-Nazi's, clan followers, red necks is not really an attempt to make a peaceful gesture.

And the attempt of Pelosi to impeach Trump when he is already left the scene is just deplorable.

[qesehmk]

Ace - I think you need to think all these things over.

Backman and Palin were not known for any positions or solutions. That's just the hard truth. They started the crazy tilt of GOP. Nikki Haley is certainly a very capable intelligent woman. I don't quite approve of how she said the elections were stolen. That was pathetic but I guess everyone deserves one pass in life. So that's her. As per Pelosi - she wouldn't be doing her duty if she didn't impeach trump. What he committed is a crime against state and he should not just be impeached and convicted but jailed for the same. Anyway - I think this is getting unnecessarily too political.

I would just say - give biden some time and do your part in participating wherever advocacy is being done in a sensible manner. Or do it in your own capacity. EB-I folks will prevail and country caps will be gone in 2 years.


Why was Sarah Palin/ Michelle Backmann not given the same respect? I am not talking Trump's language, I am talking the points made by level headed Republican supporters. The media's intent to show them as some dumb bimbo's is what I am talking about.

Nikky Haley is a strong woman from my view. Firm and stood for what I believe is right. Mike Pence stood for the constitution. GOP is like an amalgamation of Libertarian, conservatives, southern Bapists, and lot of Indian origin people lately. So branding them as Neo-Nazi's, clan followers, red necks is not really an attempt to make a peaceful gesture.

And the attempt of Pelosi to impeach Trump when he is already left the scene is just deplorable.

[AceMan]

Ace - I think you need to think all these things over.

I would just say - give biden some time and do your part in participating wherever advocacy is being done in a sensible manner. Or do it in your own capacity. EB-I folks will prevail and country caps will be gone in 2 years.

I am confident that Biden would be able to normalize some resentment that has been around for the entire 2010s. Going back in history, Bill Clinton also had lot of difficulty with Newt Gingrich during mid 90s. As far as Pelosi is concerned on the topic, people just walked into the capitol and the exaggerated points like capitol under siege is not a selling point.

As far as advocacy and donations are concerned, let the young boys from 2010?s drive it. They appear more efficient than 2000?s like us. I wanted the GC quota itself to be taken out, like what Durbin wanted instead of just the country quota removal. If there is a pathway for citizenship in 8 years for DACA, the same pathway should be offered for an H1/L1/OPT student too. GC in 5th or 6th year of being in the country with citizenship option in 2 or 3 years.

[qesehmk]

I wanted the GC quota itself to be taken out, like what Durbin wanted instead of just the country quota removal. If there is a pathway for citizenship in 8 years for DACA, the same pathway should be offered for an H1/L1/OPT student too. GC in 5th or 6th year of being in the country with citizenship option in 2 or 3 years.

Bill Gates has similar solution and I totally agree. Companies should not look at H1 as cheap labor - if they want H1 then they should be able to hire without quota but then commit to GC in a timebound manner. Surprisingly that will protect American workers in a much better manner than current system.

[alpha0]

Bill Gates has similar solution and I totally agree. Companies should not look at H1 as cheap labor - if they want H1 then they should be able to hire without quota but then commit to GC in a timebound manner. Surprisingly that will protect American workers in a much better manner than current system.

How are American workers protected? Dont forget that supprot DJT got was because of frustration of middle class who is not able to maintain their lifestyle compared to their parents. Technology is replacing most if not all middle class jobs and companies are outsourcing those to consulting firms who bring in unrestricted foreign cheap labor. Let's agree that for each Pichai and Nadela, 500 Amirpeth trained H1bs have entered USA and now their Bcom/BSc/MLT h4-ead spouses are running into IT jobs after few weeks of online coaching and few years of fake resume while american John/Janes in 50s are losing jobs and collecting unemployment.

In my last 10-12 years, i have seen so many americans losing jobs in my company, most of thsoe mainframe programmers or business users could have been easily trained into new technology / ERP roles if govt forced IT companies to do that. Instead for sale DC politicians allowed staffing companeis to bring in young cheal labor without any restrictions. And i dont see any change or any effort to fix that in Biden plan.

And i dont want to even start the menace of fake resumes on the basis of which these desis got the jobs. If people need to go to jail for faking resumes for college admissions, they need to empty entire prison system to make space for these fake resumes professionals. And to be honest, i have never seen any effort by government to protect americans impacted by this scam.

[alpha0]

Just to add - i am not against any immigration reform. I want people waiting for years in gc queue to get gc asap, i also want 11 Million undocumented to get some sort of legalization.

I just dont see any effort to protect Americans in future. How will Biden ensure new undocumented immigrants wont flood the borders? How will he ensure that they were in USA before 1 Jan 2021? Some of republicans are asking right questions on that.

Same with people who say free flow of product goes hand in hand with free flow of labor. When Apple goes to India for manufacturing, indian govt forces them to source 75% of material locally. China forces american companies not to do business directly but enter into joint venture with chinese companies where chinese firms have majority stake. Why can't US govt force IT staffing/consulitng companies to hire 50% of staff locally? Anybody who says that will impact american competitiveness is doing so because their income depends on cheap labor, that is it.

My fear is if these issues are not resolved, some point in time, someone like DJT will be able to divert the frustration and anger of American middle class/lower middle class whose american dreams have vanished against a particular section of society.

[vsivarama]

My fear is if these issues are not resolved, some point in time, someone like DJT will be able to divert the frustration and anger of American middle class/lower middle class whose american dreams have vanished against a particular section of society.

This is a complex topic, but the answer actually is very simple. The same people who are frustrated that companies do not retrain them are for unchecked capitalism and libertarianism. Well when you want the good of unchecked capitalism you have to bear the bad that comes with it. There has to be a balance between capitalism and social welfare policies. Anything unchecked will only serve as a wrecking ball to the society as a whole.

[qesehmk]

How are American workers protected? Dont forget that supprot DJT got was because of frustration of middle class who is not able to maintain their lifestyle compared to their parents. Technology is replacing most if not all middle class jobs and companies are outsourcing those to consulting firms who bring in unrestricted foreign cheap labor. Let's agree that for each Pichai and Nadela, 500 Amirpeth trained H1bs have entered USA and now their Bcom/BSc/MLT h4-ead spouses are running into IT jobs after few weeks of online coaching and few years of fake resume while american John/Janes in 50s are losing jobs and collecting unemployment.

In my last 10-12 years, i have seen so many americans losing jobs in my company, most of thsoe mainframe programmers or business users could have been easily trained into new technology / ERP roles if govt forced IT companies to do that. Instead for sale DC politicians allowed staffing companeis to bring in young cheal labor without any restrictions. And i dont see any change or any effort to fix that in Biden plan.

And i dont want to even start the menace of fake resumes on the basis of which these desis got the jobs. If people need to go to jail for faking resumes for college admissions, they need to empty entire prison system to make space for these fake resumes professionals. And to be honest, i have never seen any effort by government to protect americans impacted by this scam.

Alpha - I must say every single point you raise is very important and legitimate. I don't really have answers to these complex problems. My 2 cents are that American system needs to increase emphasis on eqaulity and legislation, regulations and tax policy needs to reflect that. Doing away with estate taxes or dividend taxes, removing glass steagall have done more lasting damage to American middle class than a few hundred thousand H1 and EAD jobs. H1 and EAD are a distraction. The real problem is that America needs to go back to its roots of what really made it great viz. all the reforms that Teddy and FD Roosevelt instituted that built a solid middle class.

[alpha0]

Alpha - I must say every single point you raise is very important and legitimate. I don't really have answers to these complex problems. My 2 cents are that American system needs to increase emphasis on eqaulity and legislation, regulations and tax policy needs to reflect that. Doing away with estate taxes or dividend taxes, removing glass steagall have done more lasting damage to American middle class than a few hundred thousand H1 and EAD jobs. H1 and EAD are a distraction. The real problem is that America needs to go back to its roots of what really made it great viz. all the reforms that Teddy and FD Roosevelt instituted that built a solid middle class.

I agree taxing income from wealth same as income from work may help some of the wealth gap created in last few decades (for example wealth of bottom 90% reduced from 40% to 30% in last 30 years where as top 1% got most of that increase). But bottom 90% never had enough wealth to sustain their lifestyles even before Reagan years.

Issue is shrinking of middle class jobs in USA. First they moved almost all manufactuing jobs to China. Then last two decades saw service jobs (mainly back office) getting offshored to cheap locations. And then technology is eliminating many repetitive sort of jobs. Even in technology, onsite/offshore ratios of 90/10 have become 10/90 in last 20 years. And on top of that h1b+h4+l1 are taking most of these remaining onsite jobs.

With all that, couple of millions of ICT jobs going to h1bs+h4+l1 do create a major impact for American middle class. I agree many of us got benefited from this treand but i strongly feel that average americans hardly got any benefit from this pseudo capitalism. Only top 1% benefited from that alonigwith few millions of desis (and immigrants from other countries) who got into first world lifestyle at the cost of american middle class.

[vsivarama]

Issue is shrinking of middle class jobs in USA. First they moved almost all manufactuing jobs to China. Then last two decades saw service jobs (mainly back office) getting offshored to cheap locations. And then technology is eliminating many repetitive sort of jobs. Even in technology, onsite/offshore ratios of 90/10 have become 10/90 in last 20 years. And on top of that h1b+h4+l1 are taking most of these remaining onsite jobs.

Here is the main issue. As much as we would like to believe that H1 + H4 + L1 folks brought the American native workforce to it's knees, the truth is far from it. EB based GC's are 14% of the total GCs given out in a year. So thinking that minority of immigrants getting GC's each year are eating into the thriving middle class is incredulous. There is a lot of automation going on even in the tech sector. Those who have been in the workforce long enough know first hand how any specialized jobs in Tech sector got eliminated. I know for a fact that I will need to reinvent myself and will not have a viable tech sector job in 10-15 years because of the automation, and this automation will affect both the H1B's + H4s + L1s equally as it effects the native citizens of this country. A big part of the reason America made it to the top was because of it's focus on leading the world in innovation and thus creating millions of jobs as a result. Providing cost effective service to other countries innovative products was never it's MO. I truly believe in my heart that the pendulum will swing the other way from this crony capitalism model in the near future.

[qesehmk]

I agree taxing income from wealth same as income from work may help some of the wealth gap created in last few decades (for example wealth of bottom 90% reduced from 40% to 30% in last 30 years where as top 1% got most of that increase). But bottom 90% never had enough wealth to sustain their lifestyles even before Reagan years.

Issue is shrinking of middle class jobs in USA. First they moved almost all manufactuing jobs to China. Then last two decades saw service jobs (mainly back office) getting offshored to cheap locations. And then technology is eliminating many repetitive sort of jobs. Even in technology, onsite/offshore ratios of 90/10 have become 10/90 in last 20 years. And on top of that h1b+h4+l1 are taking most of these remaining onsite jobs.

With all that, couple of millions of ICT jobs going to h1bs+h4+l1 do create a major impact for American middle class. I agree many of us got benefited from this treand but i strongly feel that average americans hardly got any benefit from this pseudo capitalism. Only top 1% benefited from that alonigwith few millions of desis (and immigrants from other countries) who got into first world lifestyle at the cost of american middle class.

I agree with your tone. The numbers may be debatable indeed this is true that American middle class has shrunk.

The Chinese manufacturing revolution swindled so many jobs away but it affected blue collar people and hence there never was a hue and cry over it.

The H1B Indians threatened mostly white collar workers and in many many instances Indians have occupied the plum positions in corporate ladder. That has really rattled otherwise liberal and open minded confident white upper middle class. That's why you see the backlash.

I still believe that the real issue is not displacement or replacement but rather government's failure to reign in corporate greed and allowing the society to transition smoothly to new future as globalization takes hold. I think guaranteed wage could be a good solution. The economy already is at a stage where we can maintain this lifestyle with half the workforce. So that idea makes a whole lot of sense to me.

[alpha0]

I agree with your tone. The numbers may be debatable indeed this is true that American middle class has shrunk.

The Chinese manufacturing revolution swindled so many jobs away but it affected blue collar people and hence there never was a hue and cry over it.

The H1B Indians threatened mostly white collar workers and in many many instances Indians have occupied the plum positions in corporate ladder. That has really rattled otherwise liberal and open minded confident white upper middle class. That's why you see the backlash.

I still believe that the real issue is not displacement or replacement but rather government's failure to reign in corporate greed and allowing the society to transition smoothly to new future as globalization takes hold. I think guaranteed wage could be a good solution. The economy already is at a stage where we can maintain this lifestyle with half the workforce. So that idea makes a whole lot of sense to me.

This is government by the rich, for the rich. No matter who is in power, i dont see any meaninful change for middle class.

[qesehmk]

This is government by the rich, for the rich. No matter who is in power, i dont see any meaninful change for middle class.
Sometimes it certainly feels that way. But just to keep things in perspective we are in better shape than anytime in human history and than any other place in the world. Scandanavia and socialist europe might seem better but I have spent some time there and I prefer US :)

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

IV has officially gone full bonkers. It's ok to be emotional about a cause but asking people to do something unlawful, no matter that no one is going to listen to their rants, is just plain dumb. There are no country limits on H1B as per law and it will remain so until it changes, so wishing for that so that green card issues are sorted out is just arse backward.

https://mobile.twitter.com/immivoice/status/1359640600304373763

Until discriminatory per-county limits on EB Green Cards are lifted, the Biden administration needs to STOP bringing in more new Indian immigrants on H-1B, otherwise more immigrants will be exploited by their employers and discriminated by the system.

[qesehmk]

This is height of stupidity. This comes straight out of the playbook of republican party - particularly Trumpsters who don't want Desi H1Bs or any H1Bs for that matter.

Mindboggling.

IV has officially gone full bonkers. It's ok to be emotional about a cause but asking people to do something unlawful, no matter that no one is going to listen to their rants, is just plain dumb. There are no country limits on H1B as per law and it will remain so until it changes, so wishing for that so that green card issues are sorted out is just arse backward.

https://mobile.twitter.com/immivoice/status/1359640600304373763

Until discriminatory per-county limits on EB Green Cards are lifted, the Biden administration needs to STOP bringing in more new Indian immigrants on H-1B, otherwise more immigrants will be exploited by their employers and discriminated by the system.

[skpanda]

This is height of stupidity. This comes straight out of the playbook of republican party - particularly Trumpsters who don't want Desi H1Bs or any H1Bs for that matter.

Mindboggling.

This definitely is stupid. This does not makes sense and is never going to happen.

However just to play devil's advocate to see where it goes - Is this a way to attract attention of Dems/Companies/Lawyers/AILA. If this catches on with Republicans/Conservatives/Numbers USA etc and they start supporting this, then would that be a push for Dems/Companies//Lawyers/AILA to do something to resolve the backlog? As of now they are plain and simple ignoring the backlog issue in their interest to cater to DACA/undocumented immigration problem.

Don't take me wrong... I am just trying to see what motivated IV to take this approach. Is it plain stupid or there is a thought process in this?

See below news reporting - is there any method to this madness?

https://www.news18.com/news/world/biden-administration-urged-not-to-issue-h-1b-to-indians-till-country-cap-on-green-card-is-removed-3422084.html

[qesehmk]

This definitely is stupid. This does not makes sense and is never going to happen.

However just to play devil's advocate to see where it goes - Is this a way to attract attention of Dems/Companies/Lawyers/AILA. If this catches on with Republicans/Conservatives/Numbers USA etc and they start supporting this, then would that be a push for Dems/Companies//Lawyers/AILA to do something to resolve the backlog? As of now they are plain and simple ignoring the backlog issue in their interest to cater to DACA/undocumented immigration problem.

Don't take me wrong... I am just trying to see what motivated IV to take this approach. Is it plain stupid or there is a thought process in this?

See below news reporting - is there any method to this madness?

https://www.news18.com/news/world/biden-administration-urged-not-to-issue-h-1b-to-indians-till-country-cap-on-green-card-is-removed-3422084.html

I think they are again hoodwinked into wrong strategy by their Trump pals.

The Trump folks clearly want to stop any and all immigration. Country quota for H1B stops all desi H1B dead in its tracks and effectively kills H1B going forward.

My guess is that Trump folks have convinced IV that by effectively killing H1B somehow the focus will move to how unfair country caps are.

I think this logic is unsound -especially because the focus already is strongly on country caps. Biden is already committed to removing country caps. Both parties have passed or sponsored such bills. What we need is skillful advocacy to walk the minefield of various interests that can stop this in its track by tagging 100 other things.

But to answer your question - honestly they don't seem to have given much thought to it just like they didn't seem to have done it with Durbin blame game.

[AceMan]

IV has officially gone full bonkers. It's ok to be emotional about a cause but asking people to do something unlawful, no matter that no one is going to listen to their rants, is just plain dumb. There are no country limits on H1B as per law and it will remain so until it changes, so wishing for that so that green card issues are sorted out is just arse backward.

https://mobile.twitter.com/immivoice/status/1359640600304373763

Until discriminatory per-county limits on EB Green Cards are lifted, the Biden administration needs to STOP bringing in more new Indian immigrants on H-1B, otherwise more immigrants will be exploited by their employers and discriminated by the system.


The guy who was handling their tweet was having a drink that did not gel well with his internal system and put a random tweet out. They never had any clout in the Trump Admin, they went bonkers by thinking, abusing a Senator might get a seat at Trump table.

I don't know where the maturity left among the senior leaders who had better sensibility when dealing with Grassley, but completely insane when it was Durbin.

[srimurthy]

This definitely is stupid. This does not makes sense and is never going to happen.

See below news reporting - is there any method to this madness?

https://www.news18.com/news/world/biden-administration-urged-not-to-issue-h-1b-to-indians-till-country-cap-on-green-card-is-removed-3422084.html

Looking at this statement form the Article:
"to use its authority under INA Section 212(f) to exclude any new individual born in India who are not currently in the United States legally from obtaining a new H-1B visa for the first time in Fiscal Year 2022, he said."
This is going to impact people who are here for Master or higher education or on other visas and that is not going to fly as many Universities depend on Indian students.

Also it is more of a half baked thought and not sure if analyzed the impact before making this absurd statement or call.

[AceMan]

Looking at this statement form the Article:
"to use its authority under INA Section 212(f) to exclude any new individual born in India who are not currently in the United States legally from obtaining a new H-1B visa for the first time in Fiscal Year 2022, he said."
This is going to impact people who are here for Master or higher education or on other visas and that is not going to fly as many Universities depend on Indian students.

Also it is more of a half baked thought and not sure if analyzed the impact before making this absurd statement or call.

AK and his loyal fans has been trying to stay in relevance in some form or another.

The strategy is very good. If Indians are blocked from applying H1, the applicants will be from ROW and it can guarantee that From 2022/23 onwards India get only the minimal 2803 visas. They can continue to milk their group of desperadoes from 2011-15 with some vague bills and photo ops. It?s high time that organization has to get rid of AK and it?s Chamchas for a clean reboot.

[Turbulent_Dragonfly]

There should be no fear that any of this will be implemented in any fashion because it's not part of law. It's just so moronic for some immigrant advocacy organization to put out statements like these from a verified twitter account which will actually hurt immigrants and sow misinformation too.

[qesehmk]

AK and his loyal fans has been trying to stay in relevance in some form or another.

The strategy is very good. If Indians are blocked from applying H1, the applicants will be from ROW and it can guarantee that From 2022/23 onwards India get only the minimal 2803 visas. They can continue to milk their group of desperadoes from 2011-15 with some vague bills and photo ops. It?s high time that organization has to get rid of AK and it?s Chamchas for a clean reboot.

Ace - I do not know AK personally. Only through his work on advocacy. I have always respected the fact that he managed to build and run a significant advocacy organization following and effort. But I have also disliked their methods and strategies, which IMHO have become quite distasteful and counterproductive over time. I think it is in everybody's interest that good people join IV and help them with strategy. My own view is that strategy needs to be middle of the path, non-partisan, and should appeal to common Americans' sense of justice if it is to be effective. A strategy that is extreme, confrontational, partisan or political has little to no chance of ever succeeding.

[android09]

Ace - I do not know AK personally. Only through his work on advocacy. I have always respected the fact that he managed to build and run a significant advocacy organization following and effort. But I have also disliked their methods and strategies, which IMHO have become quite distasteful and counterproductive over time. I think it is in everybody's interest that good people join IV and help them with strategy. My own view is that strategy needs to be middle of the path, non-partisan, and should appeal to common Americans' sense of justice if it is to be effective. A strategy that is extreme, confrontational, partisan or political has little to no chance of ever succeeding.

Q, all due respect, this is not how advocacy is done. Been part of a couple of big advocacy organizations and they usually have a big presence in DC, have lawyers, a dedicated advocacy branch, full-time staff working on implementing the strategy, staff working on developing contacts and communication with lobbyists, lawyers, and people on the hill including senators and reps. They meet with elected officials, bring former elected officials on as thought leaders to push the advocacy front. Create a complimentary as well as networking effect by bringing in other organizations with similar goals. I have seen this upfront and personally with the American Medical association, American Hospital Association and a couple of other religious/social organizations. At the heart of it is money. Lots of it. The overall advocacy strategy is tightly integrated with the organizational strategy and is executed with singular focus. It never wavers and is laser focused.

[qesehmk]

Q, all due respect, this is not how advocacy is done. Been part of a couple of big advocacy organizations and they usually have a big presence in DC, have lawyers, a dedicated advocacy branch, full-time staff working on implementing the strategy, staff working on developing contacts and communication with lobbyists, lawyers, and people on the hill including senators and reps. They meet with elected officials, bring former elected officials on as thought leaders to push the advocacy front. Create a complimentary as well as networking effect by bringing in other organizations with similar goals. I have seen this upfront and personally with the American Medical association, American Hospital Association and a couple of other religious/social organizations. At the heart of it is money. Lots of it. The overall advocacy strategy is tightly integrated with the organizational strategy and is executed with singular focus. It never wavers and is laser focused.

Thanks. I wouldn't expect less. But somehow their public persona is how I have described.

Regardless I wish them well and as I said, all good energetic people should join IV. Instead of squabbling it is always best to do something constructive.